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      Academy Expectations

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      Son Of A Gun
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      Academy Expectations
      Aug 18, 2015 07:13:48 pm
      I've not got a major problem if we sign him, but if he does come, we're just another typical English Premier League side overhauling the squad each summer because our finances allow it - the same goes for other clubs seemingly in constant transition such as Man Utd and Tottenham.

      Instead of financial prudence and self-development which should be a priority at the club, we are constantly juggling by getting new players in to adapt to (A) the club, and (B) the League.

      If Illarramendi does arrive, of course I will support him, but it is yet another indictment against our putrid youth system which seems to be producing peanuts.

      In an ideal world, Rossitter would be getting the chance, he wouldn't need to adapt to the club or the league as youth players generally slot into the first team with much more relative ease than incomers. Okay, so fair enough, perhaps Rossitter isn't good enough? Well if he isn't, then be very worried by the fact he was touted as one of our very brightest young players - and if he can't make it, then the prospects for the rest of the Academy is looking very bleak indeed. Academies should ensure stability with a club and a great foundation upon which all great teams succeed. If we are constantly going through every summer with the policy of "overhaul the squad, fail, repeat, overhaul the squad, fail, repeat", then our future will be very bleak indeed.

      I've said it time and time and time again, stop looking for answers in the transfer market, and start looking for solutions closer to home - more specifically, producing a great academy. At the moment, I worry greatly that we are only looking for answers in the transfer market. And no matter what, that is destined to fail, unless we get a rich billionaire Arab which is never going to happen.
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #1: Aug 18, 2015 07:28:36 pm
      At the moment, I worry greatly that we are only looking for answers in the transfer market. And no matter what, that is destined to fail,

      I hear what you're saying but the facts surrounding "looking for answers in the transfer market" tell a whole different story to the one you believe.

      Far from being destined to fail, the fact (and truth) is that top clubs look to the transfer market -  and they invariably and consistently win titles - both domestic & European. Just as the fact and truth is; very few kids ever make 'it'.

      So we try Jordan and he fails: what next - try again and hope the next kid is better... fail then repeat? Hmm...

      If, by some twist of fate, we were only able to field players who come through the system, we would be ate and sh*t alive, week in week out. In my opinion, of course.

      The answer is probably a balance of the two [youth & experience] and... at the moment we're well blessed with plenty of 'youth'.
      « Last Edit: Aug 18, 2015 07:39:16 pm by bad boy bubby »
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #2: Aug 18, 2015 07:48:16 pm
      I hear what you're saying but the facts surrounding "looking for answers in the transfer market" tell a whole different story to the one you believe.

      Far from being destined to fail, the fact (and truth) is that top clubs look to the transfer market -  and they invariably and consistently win titles - both domestic & European. Just as the fact and truth is; very few kids ever make 'it'.

      So we try Jordan and he fails: what next - try again and hope the next kid is better... fail then repeat? Hmm...

      If, by some twist of fate, we were only able to field players who come through the system, we would be ate and sh*t alive, week in week out. In my opinion, of course.

      The answer is probably a balance of the two [youth & experience] and... at the moment we're well blessed with plenty of 'youth'.

      I'm not saying we just put in any youngster - they have to be good enough. So the answer goes back to youth coaching and coaching our youngsters to be great - it's obvious that England has a major problem when it comes to youth coaching, and Liverpool epitomise this considering that, apart from Flanagan, the last graduates were from the class who came out of the mid to late 1990s (Gerrard, Owen, Carra, Fowler, McManaman, etc). A very long time ago.

      While we have a hefty amount of transfer funds, we still cannot compete with the financially elite clubs. We are very much in the underdog category in terms of the top clubs - like Dortmund and Athletico Madrid. However, they have a good youth system whereby their squads have a very healthy amount of academy graduates and it often saves them the task of risky spending sprees, in addition to trying to adapt them into the squad.

      We don't, and it's striking to think (and correct me if I'm wrong on this) that this is the first time in our history we have no local scouse blood on the team sheet. I'm not expecting the next Gerrard or anything, but a healthy amount of capable squad players derived from the academy would save us the effort and time of spending loads on a player and watching him take time to adapt.

      In fairness, youth reforms take years to assess and we can only effectively assess Rodgers's reforms when the youngest come through (they are still making their way through the academy levels). The older age groups in the Academy were past a certain stage of development when Rodgers came in, and the older they were, the less they will resemble Rodgers idea of a Liverpool player, so we can't really assess those players as part of Rodgers youth masterplan.
      mcarz
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #3: Aug 18, 2015 09:22:29 pm
      I've not got a major problem if we sign him, but if he does come, we're just another typical English Premier League side overhauling the squad each summer because our finances allow it - the same goes for other clubs seemingly in constant transition such as Man Utd and Tottenham.

      Instead of financial prudence and self-development which should be a priority at the club, we are constantly juggling by getting new players in to adapt to (A) the club, and (B) the League.

      If Illarramendi does arrive, of course I will support him, but it is yet another indictment against our putrid youth system which seems to be producing peanuts.

      In an ideal world, Rossitter would be getting the chance, he wouldn't need to adapt to the club or the league as youth players generally slot into the first team with much more relative ease than incomers. Okay, so fair enough, perhaps Rossitter isn't good enough? Well if he isn't, then be very worried by the fact he was touted as one of our very brightest young players - and if he can't make it, then the prospects for the rest of the Academy is looking very bleak indeed. Academies should ensure stability with a club and a great foundation upon which all great teams succeed. If we are constantly going through every summer with the policy of "overhaul the squad, fail, repeat, overhaul the squad, fail, repeat", then our future will be very bleak indeed.

      I've said it time and time and time again, stop looking for answers in the transfer market, and start looking for solutions closer to home - more specifically, producing a great academy. At the moment, I worry greatly that we are only looking for answers in the transfer market. And no matter what, that is destined to fail, unless we get a rich billionaire Arab which is never going to happen.

      Rossiter isn't good enough to play a big amount of games for the first team because he's only 18. That doesn't mean he isn't one of our brightest prospects. Who's saying he won't make it? There's no need to rush players that simply aren't ready just for the sake of it. You seem wound up by that particular situation and there's no need to be.
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #4: Aug 18, 2015 09:26:33 pm
      Rossiter isn't good enough to play a big amount of games for the first team because he's only 18. That doesn't mean he isn't one of our brightest prospects. Who's saying he won't make it? There's no need to rush players that simply aren't ready just for the sake of it. You seem wound up by that particular situation and there's no need to be.

      Fair enough, but that shouldn't cover up the fact we have largely brought in a lot of inadequate players (either loan or buy - Manquillo, Moses, Alberto, Assaidi, Cissokho, etc) when we could have at least given some youth players a chance. Certainly, the majority of them offered absolutely nothing to us and, all added up, that's a heck of a lot of money wasted.
      mcarz
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #5: Aug 18, 2015 09:30:13 pm
      Fair enough, but that shouldn't cover up the fact we have largely brought in a lot of inadequate players (either loan or buy - Manquillo, Moses, Alberto, Assaidi, Cissokho, etc) when we could have at least given some youth players a chance. Certainly, the majority of them offered absolutely nothing to us and, all added up, that's a heck of a lot of money wasted.

      It happens at most clubs in the world so I'm not sure why you think ours would be any different?
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #6: Aug 18, 2015 09:35:15 pm
      I'm not saying we just put in any youngster - they have to be good enough.
      And when they are... 'we' do - more so than most - if they're good enough (irrespective of age) they'll be given a chance. I thought that much was obvious mate.

      Other than stating the obvious [which you seem to agree with] I don't know what else to say.

      Maybe I'm missing your point as I'm sure your not saying 'just give em a go because it might save money' as that would be assuming an awful lot; namely Brendan and his team are mistaken in the reading of the ability of their players.


      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #7: Aug 18, 2015 09:54:19 pm
      And when they are... 'we' do - more so than most - if they're good enough (irrespective of age) they'll be given a chance. I thought that much was obvious mate.

      Other than stating the obvious [which you seem to agree with] I don't know what else to say.

      Maybe I'm missing your point as I'm sure your not saying 'just give em a go because it might save money' as that would be assuming an awful lot; namely Brendan and his team are mistaken in the reading of the ability of their players.




      My original point is that because we have been so woeful in terms of our academy, we are having to fork out on overhauls of the squad, and because we can afford it over most European clubs, it doesn't provide much incentive to produce a top quality academy. I personally see the massive outlay of transfer funds every summer as an indictment against our awful youth academy.

      We should be looking at the likes of Barca and Dortmund for clubs whereby the foundations of success is made upon a great academy. There's no way these clubs - even Atheltico Madrid - would have seen the success they had without their academies.

      We are never going to outsmart clubs in the transfer market, so my ideal solution is to plough loads of resources into the academy - i.e. coaching methods, coachign structure, etc.
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #8: Aug 18, 2015 10:07:42 pm
      I personally see the massive outlay of transfer funds every summer as an indictment against our awful youth academy.
      If that's your reading of things fair enough. Just out of curiosity - which of the top clubs do you reckon actually have a great academy?
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #9: Aug 18, 2015 10:41:38 pm
      If that's your reading of things fair enough. Just out of curiosity - which of the top clubs do you reckon actually have a great academy?


      Sorry for butting in but 'great academies' in England don't seem to matter much these days! I'm guessing that because of the incredible ££££ being pumped into the league I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that spending on academies will more or less stay the same while the broadcasting money is used to subsidise and inflate transfer fees. I fear that it may be so detrimental to the academies throughout

      As well as an obvious aim to win trophies on the field the club should always seek to maximise and realise the potential of the communities around it. I'd love to see the Academy expanded so that young players could get their full education, lifestyle and attitude from there, very similar to what they are doing at Barcelona. A lot of these kids will be coming from disadvantaged backgrounds and it would be great that in rewarding their football ability we could reward them in their abilities outside of football - enhancing and engaging their knowledge in a range of academic subjects.

      I understand that the Liverpool academy sends it's students to a centre within Rainhill High School. It'd be interesting to know the sort of curriculum being offered at this school and whether there's enough emphasis on the type of subjects that would develop and enhance our players brains and intelligence.

      Seeing their website though and I see photos of them doing cookery courses and woodwork. This is all very well but what about the emphasis on more academically inclined subjects such as in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Maths), English, Social sciences and business? I don't see much evidence of that. To create great players I think you need to combine it with a great, first class education so they we create mindful and intelligent players off the field as well as on it. By combining a highly wired and intelligent brain with our academy prospects ability then I think we could create genuinely brilliant players along the lines of a Xavi, Iniesta or Pirlo.

      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #10: Aug 18, 2015 11:01:29 pm
      Sorry for butting in but 'great academies' in England don't seem to matter much these days! I'm guessing that because of the incredible ££££ being pumped into the league I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that spending on academies will more or less stay the same while the broadcasting money is used to subsidise and inflate transfer fees. I fear that it may be so detrimental to the academies throughout

      As well as an obvious aim to win trophies on the field the club should always seek to maximise and realise the potential of the communities around it. I'd love to see the Academy expanded so that young players could get their full education, lifestyle and attitude from there, very similar to what they are doing at Barcelona. A lot of these kids will be coming from disadvantaged backgrounds and it would be great that in rewarding their football ability we could reward them in their abilities outside of football - enhancing and engaging their knowledge in a range of academic subjects.

      I understand that the Liverpool academy sends it's students to a centre within Rainhill High School. It'd be interesting to know the sort of curriculum being offered at this school and whether there's enough emphasis on the type of subjects that would develop and enhance our players brains and intelligence.

      Seeing their website though and I see photos of them doing cookery courses and woodwork. This is all very well but what about the emphasis on more academically inclined subjects such as in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Maths), English, Social sciences and business? I don't see much evidence of that. To create great players I think you need to combine it with a great, first class education so they we create mindful and intelligent players off the field as well as on it. By combining a highly wired and intelligent brain with our academy prospects ability then I think we could create genuinely brilliant players along the lines of a Xavi, Iniesta or Pirlo.



      Just had a quick look at that. Worrying....

      At Barca, even the seniors are encouraged to take academic subjects to enhance their rational intelligence which can transfer onto the field. Iniesta and Xavi are known for doing this. Now before anyone has a go, I'm not saying being a member of MENSA will make you Messi, but there is an increasing trend by which good academia can improve the mind and intelligence of a footballer on the field, as opposed to the Captain Caveman approach that sums up English footballers.

      Besides this, the famed Barca youth academy provides top class academia in addition to the top class coaching, to provide the players with a brain to stand on in case of (A) they don't make it at the top level, and (B) to encourage their rationality on the field.

      Our youth education of woodwork, cooking and being taught how to pitch a f**king tent is hardly the way to aid the player on the field, and in many cases, doesn't even provide kids with the education needed to fall back on in case their football career doesn't work out. Some of them will be lucky to find jobs within this remit, but there's only so many practical jobs out there.

      To be a fully rounded human being as Brendan wants our players to be, they need more than 'commitment, responsibility and determination'. They need a f**king brain. And considering the thick fools that English football produces, we are way way way behind the top footballing nations in the world. And Liverpool aren't doing anything it seems to buck that trend.
      « Last Edit: Aug 18, 2015 11:30:06 pm by Son Of A Gun »
      fishpie
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #11: Aug 19, 2015 08:10:14 am
      Just had a quick look at that. Worrying....

      At Barca, even the seniors are encouraged to take academic subjects to enhance their rational intelligence which can transfer onto the field. Iniesta and Xavi are known for doing this. Now before anyone has a go, I'm not saying being a member of MENSA will make you Messi, but there is an increasing trend by which good academia can improve the mind and intelligence of a footballer on the field, as opposed to the Captain Caveman approach that sums up English footballers.

      Besides this, the famed Barca youth academy provides top class academia in addition to the top class coaching, to provide the players with a brain to stand on in case of (A) they don't make it at the top level, and (B) to encourage their rationality on the field.

      Our youth education of woodwork, cooking and being taught how to pitch a f**king tent is hardly the way to aid the player on the field, and in many cases, doesn't even provide kids with the education needed to fall back on in case their football career doesn't work out. Some of them will be lucky to find jobs within this remit, but there's only so many practical jobs out there.

      To be a fully rounded human being as Brendan wants our players to be, they need more than 'commitment, responsibility and determination'. They need a f**king brain. And considering the thick fools that English football produces, we are way way way behind the top footballing nations in the world. And Liverpool aren't doing anything it seems to buck that trend.

      Well wasn't Glen Johnson doing a maths degree or something? Did that do anything for his logic and problem solving.
      Most youngsters who happen to luck out with a footy contract as a kid probably only want to concentrate on that because that's their passion, I'm sure academic options will be there, from then on it's up to them to want to pursue.
      Academic knowledge taught in schools sometimes is the opposite of thinking for yourself, it's reaffirming what the status quo should be for any new person growing up, it could hinder more than make a person great.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #12: Aug 19, 2015 09:01:05 am
      Well wasn't Glen Johnson doing a maths degree or something? Did that do anything for his logic and problem solving.
      Most youngsters who happen to luck out with a footy contract as a kid probably only want to concentrate on that because that's their passion, I'm sure academic options will be there, from then on it's up to them to want to pursue.
      Academic knowledge taught in schools sometimes is the opposite of thinking for yourself, it's reaffirming what the status quo should be for any new person growing up, it could hinder more than make a person great.

      There is quite a difference between studying full time as a youngster in your secondary school years (as we are discussing here) and studying part time in an HE institute as an adult like Johnson.

      Also when I take one look at your average England player failing to string two sentences together properly in post match interviews on MOTD I hardly think they are anti establishment/rebel minds who defied 'the system'.
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #13: Aug 19, 2015 12:14:58 pm
      Sorry for butting in...

      By combining a highly wired and intelligent brain with our academy prospects ability then I think we could create genuinely brilliant players along the lines of a Xavi, Iniesta or Pirlo.

      Just lifted this part from your post by way of intro FMS - first off; no need to be sorry as long as you're keeping 'it' in the context of what was being discussed, I suppose - which was:

      * "looking for answers in the transfer market is destined to fail" - I reckon everyone and their brother can see that that's not true. Then, with that original notion scraped (I assume) it moved to...

      * 'Only those [from the academy] who are good enough should get the chance' - I also reckon that everyone can see that 'we' do in fact (and more than most) give lads from our academy a chance. That 'argument' put safely to bed, we moved again to...

      * 'Because there aren't even more kids good enough [to force their way into a top team, with top four and title ambitions] - it's a damning indictment on our academy' - well... in my opinion... that's nonsense. Truth is: very, very, few of any kids, from any F***ing academy (small or large) make it to the top table - much less force their way into a top class team - the fact is; the overwhelming majority of kids never 'make it'. Is that an indictment on our academy, the ability of the kids or... football in general?

      Remember - if a player is good enough he will make - if not at their parent club, then somewhere else.

      Which brings us back, neatly, to where you've decided come in FMS.

      Although far removed from our [SoaG/myself] original debate, you make some very valid points and I totally agree. All kids should be educated to as high an academical level as is within their capabilities - obviously some will be more gifted than others [just like footballing ability  ;)]... if for no other reason than the fact that very, very, few will become professional footballers - even less at the highest [LFC, for e.g.] level. And... All clubs should have a social conscience.

      Now what that has to do with maybe signing Illarramendi rather than give Jordan Rossiter a chance, F**k only knows  :laugh: but that aside it's been both very interesting and enjoyable reading your excellent post... once again, I totally agree.





      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #14: Aug 19, 2015 04:25:32 pm
      Just lifted this part from your post by way of intro FMS - first off; no need to be sorry as long as you're keeping 'it' in the context of what was being discussed, I suppose - which was:

      * "looking for answers in the transfer market is destined to fail" - I reckon everyone and their brother can see that that's not true. Then, with that original notion scraped (I assume) it moved to...

      * 'Only those [from the academy] who are good enough should get the chance' - I also reckon that everyone can see that 'we' do in fact (and more than most) give lads from our academy a chance. That 'argument' put safely to bed, we moved again to...

      * 'Because there aren't even more kids good enough [to force their way into a top team, with top four and title ambitions] - it's a damning indictment on our academy' - well... in my opinion... that's nonsense. Truth is: very, very, few of any kids, from any f**king academy (small or large) make it to the top table - much less force their way into a top class team - the fact is; the overwhelming majority of kids never 'make it'. Is that an indictment on our academy, the ability of the kids or... football in general?

      Remember - if a player is good enough he will make - if not at their parent club, then somewhere else.


      Again, I agree that if the player is good enough he will make it. But my point is we aren't making players that are merely 'good enough'. And that's down to bad decision making from the club in terms of coaching methods, etc.

      Also, I realise that most academy players for any club never ever play for the senior squad and I don't have unrealistic ambitions. I am comparing the plight of our academies compared to the ones we see in Germany, Spain, Italy, etc and there is no getting away from the fact that their academies produce better youngsters and as a result, there is a much higher percentage of youth players who make the grade to the senior squad in those various countries than England's putrid record. And of course there's a major indictment on our youth academy - I think it's utter nonsense to suggest its a problem with football in general when a good number of clubs all over Europe (yes, even at the top clubs too) have a healthy number of homegrown products in a matchday squad. Heck, closer to home, how do you explain Southampton's success - they are the exception rather than the rule of English football, but there's a healthy number of academy graduates who make the match day squad every season. If they were a bigger club challenging for honours, then the likelihood would be that number being actually higher as opposed to them selling off their youth products (Bale, Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain to name a few).

      As for us, what player, apart from Jon Flanagan in recent years, has proved a success at Liverpool since the turn of the 21st Century, or more accurately since Gerrard made his debut in 1998? Absolutely none and that is so disturbing of a club of our stature. Aside from Flanagan, we have gone through 17 years of not producing a successful homegrown product.

      Now if that isn't a major indictment on our academy, then I don't know what is. There is no getting away from the fact we should be ashamed of the way we have let the Academy go to ruin. There's been major changes at the Academy since Rodgers came - lets assess our situation in a few years, but we can't carry on like that. We should be matching their quota by providing ourselves with a similar level of self-sufficiency.
      « Last Edit: Aug 19, 2015 04:41:49 pm by Son Of A Gun »
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #15: Aug 19, 2015 06:43:27 pm
      Just lifted this part from your post by way of intro FMS - first off; no need to be sorry as long as you're keeping 'it' in the context of what was being discussed, I suppose - which was:

      * "looking for answers in the transfer market is destined to fail" - I reckon everyone and their brother can see that that's not true. Then, with that original notion scraped (I assume) it moved to...

      * 'Only those [from the academy] who are good enough should get the chance' - I also reckon that everyone can see that 'we' do in fact (and more than most) give lads from our academy a chance. That 'argument' put safely to bed, we moved again to...

      * 'Because there aren't even more kids good enough [to force their way into a top team, with top four and title ambitions] - it's a damning indictment on our academy' - well... in my opinion... that's nonsense. Truth is: very, very, few of any kids, from any f**king academy (small or large) make it to the top table - much less force their way into a top class team - the fact is; the overwhelming majority of kids never 'make it'. Is that an indictment on our academy, the ability of the kids or... football in general?

      Remember - if a player is good enough he will make - if not at their parent club, then somewhere else.

      Which brings us back, neatly, to where you've decided come in FMS.

      Although far removed from our [SoaG/myself] original debate, you make some very valid points and I totally agree. All kids should be educated to as high an academical level as is within their capabilities - obviously some will be more gifted than others [just like footballing ability  ;)]... if for no other reason than the fact that very, very, few will become professional footballers - even less at the highest [LFC, for e.g.] level. And... All clubs should have a social conscience.

      Now what that has to do with maybe signing Illarramendi rather than give Jordan Rossiter a chance, f**k only knows  :laugh: but that aside it's been both very interesting and enjoyable reading your excellent post... once again, I totally agree.







      Yeah apologies - I'd be the first to admit that it's waaay off topic with regards to the thread and your conversation :) Kind of developed into more than what I was going to say! But I thought I'd just add in my own extra opinion of what role the Academy should play above and beyond the footballing side of things. And as you say, many kids will be more gifted academically than others but we should do everything to give them every chance just like at footballing level.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #16: Aug 20, 2015 10:13:26 am
      As for us, what player, apart from Jon Flanagan in recent years, has proved a success at Liverpool since the turn of the 21st Century, or more accurately since Gerrard made his debut in 1998? Absolutely none and that is so disturbing of a club of our stature. Aside from Flanagan, we have gone through 17 years of not producing a successful homegrown product.

      I can only assume you mean 'Scouse' and through the ranks from a really early age SoaG because I would have had both Sterling and Ibe marked down as products of our youth policy. However I do get your drift.

      Tell me this tho' - if our academy (like many, many, others) isn't producing enough young players deemed good enough to play in a team with title ambitions and if you agree that you can only put a player in if he's good enough - how can 'looking to the transfer market' not be the answer?

      The fact is: until such times as we strike gold, it's the only answer.

      The only Premier League club (that I can, genuinely, think of) which consistently produces top, young talent, is Southampton. Admittedly the Saints don't compete at the highest level but they do seem to have the academy system down to a tee and... it's a nice earner for them.

      Way back I suggested that, instead of raiding Southampton for players, we raid their youth and scouting departments - maybe that's the answer but in the interim, ready-made, top quality is where we should be looking (in my opinion), if we want to keep pace and compete.

      As for Illarramendi - I haven't seen and don't know enough about him to say if he's that top quality. Jordan, on the other hand, isn't ready yet but... if and when he is - I reckon he'll get a shot.

      I'm outta here now; it's been good 'debating'. Good luck mate.
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #17: Aug 20, 2015 05:16:34 pm

      I can only assume you mean 'Scouse' and through the ranks from a really early age SoaG because I would have had both Sterling and Ibe marked down as products of our youth policy. However I do get your drift.

      Tell me this tho' - if our academy (like many, many, others) isn't producing enough young players deemed good enough to play in a team with title ambitions and if you agree that you can only put a player in if he's good enough - how can 'looking to the transfer market' not be the answer?

      The fact is: until such times as we strike gold, it's the only answer.

      The only Premier League club (that I can, genuinely, think of) which consistently produces top, young talent, is Southampton. Admittedly the Saints don't compete at the highest level but they do seem to have the academy system down to a tee and... it's a nice earner for them.

      Way back I suggested that, instead of raiding Southampton for players, we raid their youth and scouting departments - maybe that's the answer but in the interim, ready-made, top quality is where we should be looking (in my opinion), if we want to keep pace and compete.

      As for Illarramendi - I haven't seen and don't know enough about him to say if he's that top quality. Jordan, on the other hand, isn't ready yet but... if and when he is - I reckon he'll get a shot.

      I'm outta here now; it's been good 'debating'. Good luck mate.


      Again I have to be more specific here - I agree with that, but it's not the long term solution. If we're still doing the same in ten years time then we are just constantly treading water.

      The problem with some is that they believe it is the only answer. But a bit of innovation could go a long way in setting us up nicely for the future.
      bigmick
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #18: Aug 21, 2015 05:21:11 pm
      Are people seriously suggesting Rossiter as a viable first team option at the moment? Jesus he's absolutely miles away, may never get there.
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #19: Aug 21, 2015 05:47:41 pm
      Are people seriously suggesting Rossiter as a viable first team option at the moment? Jesus he's absolutely miles away, may never get there.

      Erm, no.

      If you read my post properly you will see that - despite being heralded as one of the brightest talents and if the brightest talent isn't good enough to get in the senior squad, then it just continues to show what average players we continue to produce. I hope he is a top talent who will find a place in the senior squad of course.

      Constantly overspending in the transfer market to plug holes in the squad when that is precisely what an academy is for is never going to see us achieve anything. Illarramendi - if he comes - isn't necessarily going to go straight into the first XI, so we're spending a lot of money merely to give us depth in that area.

      In terms of 'elite' clubs, I stated we are very much the underdogs, and that we are attempting a similar strategy to fellow underdogs like Dortmund and Athletico Madrid in the transfer market. But what differs with Liverpool FC to them is that we don't even have a half decent academy like theirs - perhaps their star players aren't from the academy, but there are important members of the senior squad from the academy providing depth and talent.

      These clubs aren't having to fork out shitloads of money when a position on the field needs strengthening (and not necessarily a player for the first XI), as they have solid replacements who graduated from the academy. What money is usually saved from their prosperous academy is pooled towards going that little bit further for the player that really makes a difference.

      I refuse to believe any bullshit that Academies don't make a difference - that is just total rubbish. If we had an academy even as good as Southampton's, then even the quality they provide from their academy would provide capable depth for a club of Liverpool's standard. I'm not looking for the next Messi necessarily, but stength and depth by which an academy MUST provide to a club.

      Anyone who neglects such an important part of Liverpool's history is doing themselves a disservice as a fan if they don't see it as important. Not only is it important in providing a squad capable of winning trophies, but the local talent that comes through has a commitment and dedication to the club like no other player, and provides a communitarian link to the club that we are losing.

      Apart from Flanagan who is out injured, it's a chilling thought that this is the first time in Liverpool FC's history that NO local lad from in and around Merseyside is a member of the senior squad.
      « Last Edit: Aug 21, 2015 06:07:01 pm by Son Of A Gun »
      HScRed1
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #20: Aug 21, 2015 06:09:42 pm


      Apart from Flanagan who is out injured, it's a chilling thought that this is the first time in Liverpool FC's history that NO local lad from in and around Merseyside is a member of the senior squad.

      Does it really matter that much, the vast majority of our fan base is global and not from Merseyside.

      Its more important that we start winning trophies than worrying about the how many scousers there are in the team.

      carragerrard
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #21: Aug 21, 2015 06:39:29 pm
      Does it really matter that much, the vast majority of our fan base is global and not from Merseyside.

      Its more important that we start winning trophies than worrying about the how many scousers there are in the team.



      agree 100%
      I am pretty sure that if there was a good enough player for the senior squad that is from Liverpool he would be in it
      we had our fair share of  great footballers who were/are scousers
      at the moment there ain't  good enough
      cannot afford to include a player just because he is a Liverpool born guy, and not good enough for the team
      apart from that as you said the fanbase is world wide
      I for one am not even  english , let alone from Liverpool, But I have supported the reds all my life, so really I don't care if a player is from katmandu, as long as he is good and helps the team to succeed

      YNWA

      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #22: Aug 21, 2015 07:37:26 pm
      Does it really matter that much, the vast majority of our fan base is global and not from Merseyside.

      Its more important that we start winning trophies than worrying about the how many scousers there are in the team.




       :mad:
      Yes it is does - I cannot believe some people underestimate the importance of needing to produce talented local lads in a team. It is the clubs duty to create talented lads from the area - and we are failing that big time. It takes a lot of heart and commitment away from the team without it. Imagine if Gerrard and Carragher weren't Liverpool players in that 2005 Champions League final. Wouldn't have won it, simple as that. Imagine if the great Liverpool sides had been deprived of its homegrown talent, then we wouldn't have dominated the game like we did. Again, read my post to show the importance of academies to the successful teams around Europe - it is not mere sentiment that is driving my belief in the importance of the academy. In addition to that, take away a heap of local heroes of the clubs history and you are left with a club without the distinctive identity that we pride ourselves on.

      And besides, the promotion of local lads in the squad provides a communitarian link to the city and environment that surrounds Liverpool FC. It is for the benefit of Liverpool and its surroundings that young lads from the area make the grade at the football club.

      Let's remember that Liverpool FC was created as a club to provide communitarian benefits - if you lose all of that links - and modern football has seen to it that that has been all but destroyed - then the club ceases the purpose it was originally meant to serve. And for a club that has a proud communitarian heritage, you lose a lot of what makes Liverpool great. What the locals give to the club, the club must give back, and it is the duty of Liverpool FC to serve its people, and providing the city with a renowned youth setup provides a great avenue by which to get young lads into the game.

      By all means, in this FIFA and Football Manager generation of football fans, its easy to think this is all trivial. Well that's the marketisation of the game which has brainwashed fans into thinking the importance of the academy is trivial in which we get stupid tw*ts on twitter spouting crap about which players we should get yet have no chance in hell of signing. Relying solely on the transfer market is the narrow minded, modern football fans belief.

      It takes INNOVATION within the club (i.e. the academy), as well as SMART THINKING in the transfer market. Relying on just one of these won't see us any success - and it's the latter strategy we have pursued in the 21st century without any hint of concern about our academy. It's no surprise then that we have come up short of our own high expectations of the club for so many years now.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #23: Aug 22, 2015 12:41:38 am

       :mad:
      Yes it is does - I cannot believe some people underestimate the importance of needing to produce talented local lads in a team. It is the clubs duty to create talented lads from the area - and we are failing that big time. It takes a lot of heart and commitment away from the team without it. Imagine if Gerrard and Carragher weren't Liverpool players in that 2005 Champions League final. Wouldn't have won it, simple as that. Imagine if the great Liverpool sides had been deprived of its homegrown talent, then we wouldn't have dominated the game like we did. Again, read my post to show the importance of academies to the successful teams around Europe - it is not mere sentiment that is driving my belief in the importance of the academy. In addition to that, take away a heap of local heroes of the clubs history and you are left with a club without the distinctive identity that we pride ourselves on.

      And besides, the promotion of local lads in the squad provides a communitarian link to the city and environment that surrounds Liverpool FC. It is for the benefit of Liverpool and its surroundings that young lads from the area make the grade at the football club.

      Let's remember that Liverpool FC was created as a club to provide communitarian benefits - if you lose all of that links - and modern football has seen to it that that has been all but destroyed - then the club ceases the purpose it was originally meant to serve. And for a club that has a proud communitarian heritage, you lose a lot of what makes Liverpool great. What the locals give to the club, the club must give back, and it is the duty of Liverpool FC to serve its people, and providing the city with a renowned youth setup provides a great avenue by which to get young lads into the game.

      By all means, in this FIFA and Football Manager generation of football fans, its easy to think this is all trivial. Well that's the marketisation of the game which has brainwashed fans into thinking the importance of the academy is trivial in which we get stupid tw*ts on twitter spouting crap about which players we should get yet have no chance in hell of signing. Relying solely on the transfer market is the narrow minded, modern football fans belief.

      It takes INNOVATION within the club (i.e. the academy), as well as SMART THINKING in the transfer market. Relying on just one of these won't see us any success - and it's the latter strategy we have pursued in the 21st century without any hint of concern about our academy. It's no surprise then that we have come up short of our own high expectations of the club for so many years now.

      Stop being a melodramatic baby, your not even a a scouser!

      How does the lack of hone grown players hinder Chelsea, City, Barca, Madrid etc.

      Liverpool has always been about winning trophies and during our most successful In the 70's and 80's it was the Scots and Irish lads who were the stars of the team.

      I'm sure there is plenty of amateur teams in Merseyside full of scousers you can follow!
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #24: Aug 22, 2015 12:58:12 am
      Stop being a melodramatic baby, your not even a a scouser!

      How does the lack of hone grown players hinder Chelsea, City, Barca, Madrid etc.

      Liverpool has always been about winning trophies and during our most successful In the 70's and 80's it was the Scots and Irish lads who were the stars of the team.

      I'm sure there is plenty of amateur teams in Merseyside full of scousers you can follow!

      Come off it, so you really believe an academy is not important to a football club?

      First of all, you have got to be joking if you think Barca have a lack of homegrown talent! Their entire success since the early 90s have been based upon the La Masia youth setup which was reformed by Rinus Michels and Johan Cruyff, and such reforms provided the team with the foundations upon their four European Cups successes - compare their spending to Madrid in the time period and it is miniscule thanks to the expert implementation of youth reforms. And secondly, the rest don't need to rely on homegrown talent because they have so much money they can buy anyone they want. They are the ultimate elite clubs in terms of finances and have so much they can paper over any cracks concerning inadequate youth setups and I wish fans would get it out of their heads that we are competing in the market with them.

      We are not in that category, and if we think we can outwit teams in the transfer market alone, then that is sheer delusion from the club.

      I reiterate - the success of Dortmund and Athletico Madrid in jumping above much more financially superior clubs derives from, yes, being clever in the transfer market, but also with a very solid foundation upon which their youth academies provided. Even Rafa in his Valencia years jumped Barca/Madrid with astute signings but also a fantastic youth setup with which he was able to work from. There's a reason why he was shocked at the state of the Academy (read Guillem Ballague's 'Season On The Brink' for details) when he arrived at Liverpool because he realises the importance of it in being able to beat the top dogs.

      As far as I'm concerned, the last few years we haven't even been good at both, some downright shameful transfer business and we don't have an academy to build a teams foundation upon. Trying to do it by bringing in squad players and spending a fortune at the same time isn't going to see us magically leapfrog the superior opposition.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #25: Aug 22, 2015 01:07:22 am
      I'm not arguing about having a successful academy it was your inference that we can not achieve success without scousers in the team.
      Even Barca's academy is full of talent outside of Catalonia.

      We are a global team and brand so for all our fans in India, Malaysia, Australia etc I doubt they are interested in the number of scousers in our academy. It's all about trophies hence why we gathered all these fans in the first place.
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #26: Aug 22, 2015 01:31:37 am
      I'm not arguing about having a successful academy it was your inference that we can not achieve success without scousers in the team.
      Even Barca's academy is full of talent outside of Catalonia.

      We are a global team and brand so for all our fans in India, Malaysia, Australia etc I doubt they are interested in the number of scousers in our academy. It's all about trophies hence why we gathered all these fans in the first place.

      I don't necessarily mean pure scousers but we should be emphasising the creation of talent in and around the Merseyside area, so that means the catchment area surrounding it. There's not enough work being done in terms of that.

      I couldn't care less what other fans on the side of the world think - I still believe it is the duty of a club to give back to the community they thrive in. A top academy that creates local heroes certainly gives the die hard local fans more pride in their club, and Anfield would have been a much poorer place without these heroes. If its all about trophies, then those fans should give a damn about the Academy as it proves with European clubs that a thriving academy is the foundation upon which many a trophy is won. The money bags teams can do without it because they have unlimited funds, but we can't. And it is imperative that every Liverpool fan must see the importance and potential an academy can do to a club.
      billythered
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #27: Aug 22, 2015 04:07:13 pm
      I don't necessarily mean pure scousers but we should be emphasising the creation of talent in and around the Merseyside area, so that means the catchment area surrounding it. There's not enough work being done in terms of that.

      I couldn't care less what other fans on the side of the world think - I still believe it is the duty of a club to give back to the community they thrive in. A top academy that creates local heroes certainly gives the die hard local fans more pride in their club, and Anfield would have been a much poorer place without these heroes. If its all about trophies, then those fans should give a damn about the Academy as it proves with European clubs that a thriving academy is the foundation upon which many a trophy is won. The money bags teams can do without it because they have unlimited funds, but we can't. And it is imperative that every Liverpool fan must see the importance and potential an academy can do to a club.



      Your 100% correct in this mate, you cannot under estimate the importance of having home grown talent in and around the club, it's not about where any individual player is from, except if you are local, being local means you are familiar with the culture of the City, you know the mindset of those who click thru the turnstiles on a match day, in short, you get the club and what it stands for more than those who are from outside the city,

      Being from Glasgow myself, I have a affinity with Scouse folk simply because both Cities are similar in culture, our peoples have had similar social troubled history, so I get it, but I'm still a wool, irrespective of how close we are socially,

      As for football, being local you will give more than any player from outside of the club, Carragher and Gerrard are proof that is the case.

      YNWA
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #28: Aug 22, 2015 04:39:22 pm


      Your 100% correct in this mate, you cannot under estimate the importance of having home grown talent in and around the club, it's not about where any individual player is from, except if you are local, being local means you are familiar with the culture of the City, you know the mindset of those who click thru the turnstiles on a match day, in short, you get the club and what it stands for more than those who are from outside the city,

      Being from Glasgow myself, I have a affinity with Scouse folk simply because both Cities are similar in culture, our peoples have had similar social troubled history, so I get it, but I'm still a wool, irrespective of how close we are socially,

      As for football, being local you will give more than any player from outside of the club, Carragher and Gerrard are proof that is the case.

      YNWA

      Completely agree - it's just not sentiment that drives my desire for a thriving academy. It's for the benefit of the whole club in attempting to win trophies. Everything about the club to these lads who are brought up - from the city's culture, to the club's history, to the match day tactics and training regimes - is second nature to them and deeply embedded in the player's psyche.

      They are primed to play for Liverpool right from a very early age, and as a result when they make their debut they are more adapted than any player who is brought in. It is the duty of the club to create talented lads, not just for their ability, but for those inherent tendencies - whether its tactical knowledge, passion and commitment for the club - which provide a club with seamless transition.
      billythered
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #29: Aug 22, 2015 05:06:42 pm
      Completely agree - it's just not sentiment that drives my desire for a thriving academy. It's for the benefit of the whole club in attempting to win trophies. Everything about the club to these lads who are brought up - from the city's culture, to the club's history, to the match day tactics and training regimes - is second nature to them and deeply embedded in the player's psyche.

      They are primed to play for Liverpool right from a very early age, and as a result when they make their debut they are more adapted than any player who is brought in. It is the duty of the club to create talented lads, not just for their ability, but for those inherent tendencies - whether its tactical knowledge, passion and commitment for the club - which provide a club with seamless transition.



      Bang on SOAG, couldn't agree more, we definitely need more local lads enrolled from youth level upwards, we have a decent academy but the amount of local talent coming thru it is not good.

      YNWA
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #30: Aug 22, 2015 11:15:33 pm
      Does it really matter that much, the vast majority of our fan base is global and not from Merseyside.

      Its more important that we start winning trophies than worrying about the how many scousers there are in the team.



      Yes it does because football clubs like Liverpool were founded on the basis that it would provide for the community and help empower the society it was surrounded by. Providing an opportunity and aspiration for local youngsters is an aspect of that duty and a duty it is.

      It should be the fundamentals of our football club, enshrined and indoctrinated within EVERY Liverpool fan around the world.

      It's all very well us pursuing players like Illarramendi but the sheer volume of those we bring in and scout indicates no awareness or trust in our ability to be somewhat self sufficient on a player front.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #31: Aug 23, 2015 12:26:06 am
      Yes it does because football clubs like Liverpool were founded on the basis that it would provide for the community and help empower the society it was surrounded by. Providing an opportunity and aspiration for local youngsters is an aspect of that duty and a duty it is.

      It should be the fundamentals of our football club, enshrined and indoctrinated within EVERY Liverpool fan around the world.

      It's all very well us pursuing players like Illarramendi but the sheer volume of those we bring in and scout indicates no awareness or trust in our ability to be somewhat self sufficient on a player front.


      So if the local talent are not as good as Illarra or who ever they should be promoted due to our social conscious towards the local community, from a private company owned by some Americans from Boston USA?

      Get real next you lot will be suggesting local scousers go in free to Anfield.

      carragerrard
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #32: Aug 23, 2015 07:37:30 am
      Its very good to have 1/2/3 or even more local lads in the team........BUT they have to be GOOD and BETTER than the non local players LIVERPOOL have to be in the SQUAD, and at the moment there ain't, simple, why did Flanagan (the last local lad that came in the team) Because he was better than the fullbacks with had then,

      Now please return to topiv== illarmendi news ,,,or we can discuss the local talent issue in the appropriate thread

      YNWA
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #33: Aug 23, 2015 08:47:07 am
      Again I have to be more specific here - I agree with that, but it's not the long term solution. If we're still doing the same in ten years time then we are just constantly treading water.
      Mate... If we're still doing the same ten years from now; by definition it's the long-term solution.

      Listen, I get your point but I'm not sure the somewhat romantic notion that we can harvest local kids and simply coach/train them into being good enough to displace/replace players, in a team with lofty ambitions, is viable.

      Truth is: I'm not sure that Stevie, Jamie or Robbie (for e.g.) were coached into being the quality they were. If they had been, then why weren't others? 

      I mean; you're hardly suggesting that our coaching staff, at the time, concentrated on these few to the detriment of others. Facts are - they were exceptionally gifted.
      I guess too that your not just assuming that we don't scout and recruit the best young local talent  - that you actually know we don't? Because that really would be a damming indictment.  :o

      Personally speaking (and without really knowing) - I'm guessing we do.

      Which brings me back to the painfully obvious, if uncomfortable...

      If they're good enough - they'll make it - it's that simple.

      If not - just like kids at Barcelona - they'll either wait in line behind Suarez and Neymar or... end up at Stoke or Everton.  ;)

      « Last Edit: Aug 23, 2015 10:52:12 am by bad boy bubby »
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #34: Aug 23, 2015 11:39:21 am


      Bang on SOAG, couldn't agree more, we definitely need more local lads enrolled from youth level upwards, we have a decent academy but the amount of local talent coming thru it is not good.

      YNWA
      How many do we currently enrol Billy and how many more, in your opinion, should we enrol?

      I mean - should we just enrol X amount, every season and hope there's a new Stevie G in there or maybe be more selective [i.e. target the best]?

      Could it be that maybe, irrespective of how many we recruit, that there may never be anyone good enough to play for Liverpool? And... that's got nothing to do with either recruitment or coaching

      My last thought on the subject - would Jordan Rossiter (for e.g.) be more, or less, likely to make the breakthrough to their first XI if he was at Tranmere's academy? Probably 'yes'...

      Does that mean Tranmere's academy coaches are better than ours or, just simply, that have higher standards?  :-\
      fishpie
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #35: Aug 23, 2015 12:48:23 pm
      Not trying to find kids in your clubs local area is a crime to the place and club so yes it should be one of the priority's along with the poaching of other kids from other locations that may never have the loyalty to the place of Liverpool. First big offer... offski.
      American Red
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #36: Aug 23, 2015 04:30:30 pm
      The number one priority of any club should be to find and nurture talent from the local area. It absolutely is a duty to their community and their surrounding areas and something that must be fostered and catered to as much as possible, particularly at a youth level.

      We do see a lot of local talent in our younger setups still, so the effort is there, although they have certainly become more internationalized. But that's simply the trend of the global game. Look at the best youth academy in the world, La Masia in/for Barcelona. A good amount of the top talent they end up producing for first team football isn't even Spanish, but were scouted internationally then raised within the academy.

      Another aspect is that fan loyalty isn't the same as it used to be. 30+ years ago, the most passionate Liverpool fans would be found exclusively in Liverpool. Now, the game is much more globalized. You can have kids in Liverpool who are more passionate about another club (domestic or foreign) while other kids in completely other countries could be diehard fans who watch every game, and are far more interested in the club than even the local ones.

      Speaking at the first team level: to create an environment in this day and age where you place a selection bias based on players' origin would simply be detrimental to the club. You would fall behind the other clubs who are selecting players strictly on skill level.

      Furthermore, I think to suggest that there is significantly more loyalty in local/domestic players is equally mistaken. Many players are more loyal to wages and the manager in charge than they are to clubs and fans, regardless of where they're from. On a whole, local players certainly are more willing to stay at a club for a longer period of time, but there are absolutely no guarantees in modern football anyway and local players are certainly not significantly more loyal, perhaps just slightly, if that.

      To speak on the topic so this is at least a viable post, I personally would really like to see Illara, or someone of his type in our current setup. The amount of times we had to resort to Joe Allen, who simply is not good enough, last year was far too often. To have someone of better quality to rely on, or to challenge for those midfield spots would be very beneficial to our side in my opinion. Being said, if we don't go for Illara now, I hope we go for William Carvalho or someone similar to that age and quality in the very near future. Unless Can steps up and takes that role for himself.
      « Last Edit: Aug 23, 2015 05:01:03 pm by American Red, Reason: Couple of grammar mistakes »
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #37: Aug 23, 2015 04:49:00 pm
      Mate... If we're still doing the same ten years from now; by definition it's the long-term solution.

      Listen, I get your point but I'm not sure the somewhat romantic notion that we can harvest local kids and simply coach/train them into being good enough to displace/replace players, in a team with lofty ambitions, is viable.

      Truth is: I'm not sure that Stevie, Jamie or Robbie (for e.g.) were coached into being the quality they were. If they had been, then why weren't others? 

      I mean; you're hardly suggesting that our coaching staff, at the time, concentrated on these few to the detriment of others. Facts are - they were exceptionally gifted.
      I guess too that your not just assuming that we don't scout and recruit the best young local talent  - that you actually know we don't? Because that really would be a damming indictment.  :o

      Personally speaking (and without really knowing) - I'm guessing we do.

      Which brings me back to the painfully obvious, if uncomfortable...

      If they're good enough - they'll make it - it's that simple.

      If not - just like kids at Barcelona - they'll either wait in line behind Suarez and Neymar or... end up at Stoke or Everton.  ;)



      Well I think there are a few players in the past who, with the right coaching at youth level, could have been coached into viable squad players. My point is we can't even make a decent squad player. I'm not looking for the next Gerrard or Fowler - these players are as you rightly suggest rarities. But say for example if some of the youth players who we released who have made it professionally in lower Premier League clubs or Championship teams were coached to a higher standard at a much earlier age (at the most important stages of development), then yes, I believe they could have been viabile, solid squad players for Liverpool. Again, not necessarily starting XI or star player billing, but good enough for the match day squad.

      The problem with Liverpool - and England in particular - in recent decades is the neanderthal coaching methods for kids, and kids in this country are taught at youth level to pretty much be scared of the ball, kick it away at any given opportunity and emphasise physicality and suring up the win. In a nutshell - the Sam Allardyce approach to football. As much as winning is important in football, at an early age it is much more important for kids to be taught how to play football and emphasise technical ability rather than the old English mentality of lumpen, long ball defensive football where kids don't get even half the time on the ball. That might sure up a win, but it does no good whatsoever for the child's development.

      The youth levels should therefore be about giving the kids the tools to win games when they are senior players. Any half-arsed pub team can be organised to nullify the opposition, and that pub team mentality has passed over onto the senior professional game and rotted down into the youth game. But by Liverpool FC's own high standard, the technical and attacking football from the glory years is the benchmark by which we must reach. Coaching kids who play with two left feet to stop the opposition isn't getting any club anywhere, and its getting the national team nowhere. The only way we can help ourselves get back to the top is coaching kids the right way, with a supreme emphasis on attacking and technical football, the like of which Ajax and Barca really do set the standard. How this links to Illarramendi is that he is being sought after to provide us with squad depth. Now for £15 million, that's a lot of money for a squad player. Now I might be very wrong, and if he did arrive, he may be an absolute star for us, but even then it doesn't undermine my point when you look back to the likes of players like Luis Alberto being brought in for £8 million, or Igor Biscan for £6 million (quite a lot in 2000), or etc, etc (there are far too many to think about). Think of all the money we have wasted in 25 years on squad players - it is shocking, and imagine if we could get our academy to fill those positions while we pool that extra money into buying a real star player. It really does pay off in the long term if we can get our academy up and running again.

      And that is one of the reasons why we haven't won the league in so long - we are constantly spreading the transfer budget around the squad, desperately trying to fill holes that could be filled with a prosperous youth system. The richest clubs can just spend, spend, spend their way out of trouble, but we can't. That is why we must emphasise the production of able talent in our academy.
      andylfcynwa
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #38: Aug 23, 2015 05:00:34 pm
      While I agree with the thought of it in reality you can coach kids till your blue in the face , if they havnt got it you cant give it to them , truth being in any generstion there are really only a handfull  born with the gift  of making it to the top I'd love a team of local lads but if they not good enough they shouldnt be in the squad just because their local .
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #39: Aug 24, 2015 11:41:08 am
      My point is we can't even make a decent squad player.
      Oh... that's your point? Fair enough.

      It's just as you had become more and more "specific" and moved further and further away, from what you initially wrote, I'd lost track. Anyhows...

      Kelly made the squad and was decent; so too Wisdom. I suppose, just to appease some folk, we could have just kept them, for the matchday squad. Maybe we'll do that with Flanno.

      Personally tho' - I'd be reticent to practice any form of positive discrimination as I'm a firm believer of 'best man for the job'.

      If, for example, Illarramendi came in (to replace Lucas' role in the team) - I'd keep Lucas, to strengthen the squad and... I've always said [the posts are there, for all to see] that we should spend money on top quality not squad fillers. So I'm glad you agree - the transfer market really is the answer, if you're looking to compete. It's just that you just don't rate Illarramendi.

      So it's all good.  :gt-happyup:




      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #40: Aug 24, 2015 02:33:33 pm
      Oh... that's your point? Fair enough.

      It's just as you had become more and more "specific" and moved further and further away, from what you initially wrote, I'd lost track. Anyhows...

      Kelly made the squad and was decent; so too Wisdom. I suppose, just to appease some folk, we could have just kept them, for the matchday squad. Maybe we'll do that with Flanno.

      Personally tho' - I'd be reticent to practice any form of positive discrimination as I'm a firm believer of 'best man for the job'.

      If, for example, Illarramendi came in (to replace Lucas' role in the team) - I'd keep Lucas, to strengthen the squad and... I've always said [the posts are there, for all to see] that we should spend money on top quality not squad fillers. So I'm glad you agree - the transfer market really is the answer, if you're looking to compete. It's just that you just don't rate Illarramendi.

      So it's all good.  :gt-happyup:

      Well, yeah it always was my point.... as you can see with plenty agreeing with me. Really not that hard to understand.

      Don't know where I said we should be creating local talent of Gerrard standard. And what is 'decent' is subjective - Kelly had potential but it was clear for the most part he had no future. I'm talking about squad players who can come in and make a difference and have a long future.

      And its not positive discrimination to be creating capable talent for us. It's positive discrimination IF they aren't good enough, but everyone here is talking about making players good enough okay?

      And like others said, it is the communitarian duty of the club to provide itself
      with local talent - if we forget that then we do ourselves an injustice as a club and supporters.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
      • Guest
      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #41: Aug 24, 2015 06:11:00 pm
      Oh... that's your point? Fair enough.

      It's just as you had become more and more "specific" and moved further and further away, from what you initially wrote, I'd lost track. Anyhows...

      Kelly made the squad and was decent; so too Wisdom. I suppose, just to appease some folk, we could have just kept them, for the matchday squad. Maybe we'll do that with Flanno.

      Personally tho' - I'd be reticent to practice any form of positive discrimination as I'm a firm believer of 'best man for the job'.

      If, for example, Illarramendi came in (to replace Lucas' role in the team) - I'd keep Lucas, to strengthen the squad and... I've always said [the posts are there, for all to see] that we should spend money on top quality not squad fillers. So I'm glad you agree - the transfer market really is the answer, if you're looking to compete. It's just that you just don't rate Illarramendi.

      So it's all good.  :gt-happyup:






      What's with the sneer? No need for it. I've enjoyed reading your and SOAG's posts. If you can't use a forum to develop lines of arguments and new threads then there's little point in coming here. As such we've seen a standard, dull thread become an interesting discussion with some superb points made.
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #42: Aug 25, 2015 12:05:45 am
      No sneer fella - called it as I see it 

      The point moved away from the original post - I assume because the point in that post was proven to be sh*te.

      On finding out what the point now is - I gave my response which was... I've been saying the same fthing or years and I'm glad SoaG agrees.

      No sneer - just fact buddy. Fact not designed to upset either you or SoaG (who the actual debate, you've looked on at and enjoyed so much, has been with).

      So anyway, in the spirit of this thread... I reckon our young players did us proud tonight.





      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #43: Aug 25, 2015 12:20:09 am
      Well, yeah it always was my point.... as you can see with plenty agreeing with me.
      Yeah mate pleanty agree with you... All that karma, right?

      But are they agreeing with the beautiful, romantic notion that it would be great to see more local lads should be coming through or the original point - "looking to the transfer market is destined to fail"?

      'Cause if they're agreeing with the original point (not the revised version) they too are talking sh*te. If on the other hand - it's the revised romantic notion then fair enough... I can see that... Although It offers only the problem without hint of a solution: it reads well and it certainly tugs at the heartstrings.

      While we're waiting for the problem to be fixed - like every successful club, we'll just have use the transfer market.

      Didn't young Gomez look good tonight btw?

      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #44: Aug 25, 2015 02:47:09 am
      Yeah mate pleanty agree with you... All that karma, right?

      But are they agreeing with the beautiful, romantic notion that it would be great to see more local lads should be coming through or the original point - "looking to the transfer market is destined to fail"?

      'Cause if they're agreeing with the original point (not the revised version) they too are talking sh*te. If on the other hand - it's the revised romantic notion then fair enough... I can see that... Although It offers only the problem without hint of a solution: it reads well and it certainly tugs at the heartstrings.

      While we're waiting for the problem to be fixed - like every successful club, we'll just have use the transfer market.

      Didn't young Gomez look good tonight btw?



      I don't see any revised opinion from any post mate. And I don't think there is bullshit in there as you - as always - condescendingly love to put it. I just think you are being a bit too pedantic on the wording of some posts.

      I still believe in the efforts of promoting youth - and promoting means putting full efforts into creating talent, not just merely placing any average youth player in the senior squad, which I think you seem to be mixing up with. Secondly, the answers are still not merely in the transfer market. Like I said, you can call it a romantic notion or sentimental bullshit, but facts prove clubs with prosperous youth systems assist in those clubs just under the elite ones seeing success. Thirdly, I don't see what your problem is in patronising those who believe the club should have a duty towards promoting the youth. If you don't see the point in helping the community that Liverpool FC is situated in, then there is not really any worth in being a Liverpool fan.
      carragerrard
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #45: Aug 25, 2015 11:31:14 am
      I don't see any revised opinion from any post mate. And I don't think there is bullshit in there as you - as always - condescendingly love to put it. I just think you are being a bit too pedantic on the wording of some posts.

      I still believe in the efforts of promoting youth - and promoting means putting full efforts into creating talent not just merely placing any average youth player in the senior squad, which I think you seem to be mixing up with. Secondly, the answers are still not merely in the transfer market. Like I said, you can call it a romantic notion or sentimental bullshit, but facts prove clubs with prosperous youth systems assist in those clubs just under the elite ones seeing success. Thirdly, I don't see what your problem is in patronising those who believe the club should have a duty towards promoting the youth. If you don't see the point in helping the community that Liverpool FC is situated in, then there is not really any worth in being a Liverpool fan.

      somehow I agree with this
      what I don't agree is with the words I highlighted creating talent
      IMHO you don't CREATE talent, that you have or you don't
      Maybe help develop it YES
      but you simply don't create it
      YNWA

      reddebs
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #46: Aug 26, 2015 06:28:51 pm
      I've seperated this debate as I believe it's one worth having and would like to continue with it.  Apologies that it's in the wrong Board but it'll get moved into the Kop when I suss out the techy bit on how to move it  ;D

      If it's ok with you guys we can use it to discuss all things about the Academy but still use the Reserves and Youth threads when we're discussing those games and use the Players Threads for anything related to the individual, if they have one.

      reddebs
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #47: Aug 26, 2015 06:48:13 pm
      Posted this earlier in the Youth Team thread but it's valid in here too.

      I know a few don't believe we are doing enough at Academy level to bring through talent for the 1st team and sometimes what goes on at the Academy is a bit of a mystery.  Most Youth Coaches are generally unknown until they start moving through the ranks and age groups but it's fantastic to know that since Brendan arrived, not only has the Academy been overhauled in how we prepare our young players for life as a pro but he's amassing some of the very best Youth Coaches throughout the age groups.

      For those who like to know who we have working with our youngsters, this is worth a read.


      Tim Lees: Coaching possession, youth development and the future

      Tim came through the academy system in England with both Bolton Wanderers and Everton as a youngster. He has over 300 appearances semi-professionally in England and in 2007 earned the highest scholarship awarded to an athlete at Maryland, USA. In 2006, he was chosen to represent the UK from 17,000 players for The Pepsi Max World Challenge, a global TV Series screened on Channel 4. Tim competed against the best semi-professional players from ten other countries in  2V2 tournament around the globe; working with Ronaldinho, David Beckham and Thierry Henry. In 2006, he was chosen by Jamie Redknapp to represent England semi-professional team at the FIFA World Cup finals in Germany.
       
      He is also a football skills champion, finishing second in the World 2004 Nike Freestyle Championships and has performed choreographed and body doubled on dozens of commercials and advertisements around the world for the past ten years.
       
      Tim was selected by Pepsi as a Technical Coach alongside David Beckham in Madrid and Ronaldinho in Camp Nou before being recruited by the Watford FC academy where he worked full time with 12-16s at the pioneering Harefield Project. This system saw over 50 players progress from the academy into the Championship first team squad. He was Youth Development Manager of 12-16s at Wigan Athletic, overseeing the coaching programme and philosophy at all age groups before managing the 13-14s philosophy at Liverpool’s academy. Tim was also seconded to coach in Spain by Roberto Martinez in the summer of 2013, holds a BSc Hons Degree in Sport Psychology, a UEFA A Licence and has been a guest speaker at several youth national coaching events.
       
      What made you get into coaching?
       
      “I first got into coaching when I was released from the professional academies and realised I was not going to reach the heights that I had dreamt of as a player. I was a skinny and small, technical deep-lying midfielder with no pace that kept dropping in to receive from centre backs – all they were being asked to do was hit the front players early. The philosophy in academies is very different now than it was in the 90s; the game has moved on so much and I was a very late developer. When I left school I was forced to take a session as part of my college course. I loved it. This is where I first started – and the session I put on was terrible.
       
      “The reason I started was born from my own experiences. I had played under so many coaches and managers who had polar opposite beliefs to me and operated in ways that I felt was completely unacceptable. They would lie continually, were lazy in terms of preparation and applied no thought or creativity to their sessions. We went for three mile runs around the streets, we wouldn’t see the balls for 60 of the 90 minute sessions and we played conditioned games with absolutely no relevance to the game at all.
       
      “I remember at Bolton, being put into a sprint race over 60 yards against the under-15 players and I was chronologically barely 13 with the biological age of 11. When I look back to some of the things I was asked to do I wonder how some of the coaches were even employed. Some people still use these methods and term them ‘making boys into men’ and all that alpha male rubbish that ‘did them no harm’, but what they don’t ask is how much better they could have been if they hadn’t wasted time on things that had no relevance.”
       
      Fans and the media are becoming more privy to buzzwords for coaches such as ‘ideology’ and ‘philosophy’, can you explain what your philosophy as a coach is?
       
      “Philosophy is a really difficult word to get across on a piece of paper or in an interview. My core philosophical values are to treat people with respect and to always be honest with others. In football, the higher you go the more bad people you find. Some of the dishonesty I have seen it truly staggering and due to this I am always open with my feelings with others around me.  I never want people to be unsure on what I am thinking whether that be good or bad. When people know you will tell them the truth 100% of the time then you have an environment where people are working towards a goal together. Trust is the most important principle to any philosophy yet it in football it is something that seems to be devoid in most clubs.
       
      “My on field philosophy never changes but constantly evolves. If I was still coaching the same things that I was two years ago then I would not only be naive but also not adjusting to the demands of the modern game. Brendan Rodgers spoke about how the speed of the Premier league changes with each pre-season thus everyone has to evolve. If I don’t evolve and improve as a coach on a weekly basis then I will never reach the levels that I want to. I am not good enough to coach a Premier League first team now therefore I need to know the steps to get me there.
       
      “The core principles I believe in never waver in any circumstances, regardless how extreme or difficult the situation may seem. If you don’t stand for something then you’ll fall for nothing. It’s an easy principle to have as a core value yet one that many abandon when the chips are down. Roberto [Martínez] once said to me ‘never move from your principles, many people will come along who don’t believe in it but you cannot be influenced – if it was easy then everyone would be doing it’.
       
      “In a short sentence, I believe in dominating possession of the football to be in control of what happens. When asked about my philosophy I could detail principles like how many receiving lines I like to use, the number of vertical columns I like to play on, about how to create specific overloads in certain areas of the pitch or how to change the amount of pressure behind 1v1’s in a game from 81% to 30-40% so you are facing the goal in space but it is all irrelevant without the player profiles in front of you. The reality is that you see things in individuals that they need which may give them short term failure but you know long term it’s best for them. You identify things in games which tactically need your input for the benefit of both the team and the individual but it’s extremely hard to document these principles without having two teams on a pitch in front of you. Instead, I will explain from, start to finish,  what I would like from any team that I coach and hopefully this will provide a more relevant answer to your question. I want my team to have the ball for several reasons:

       •Most importantly from a youth perspective, the returns technically are paramount. The obvious passing repetition and myelin built cognitively from a high frequency, repetitive process is imperative. Players receive with pressure behind 80% of the four 1v1 situations so the more times we create this, the more opportunities the players get to dominate players. Champions League players have over 2700 receiving situations per season therefore we need to get as close to this as possible. To get these technical returns, we need the ball.

       •From a tactical point of view, if we want to dominate the ball then we have to have control of the opposition in terms of their block and their defensive movements. If they show us into specific areas setting traps and working off pressing triggers then we are playing into their strengths. We have to dictate to them what is happening in the match, not the other way around. To hurt teams we need 1v1 situations higher up the pitch where we can outplay opponents but we also need the spaces. Thus, to control the spaces we need to get the opposition’s players in areas on the pitch where we want them; we need the ball most of the time.  To have the ball more than the opposition would mean that statistically, in black and white terms, we need to have the ball 51% of the game. However, this is not enough so I aim for my teams to have the ball for a minimum of 65% possession (average of Barcelona and Bayern last season). This is reflected in every possession practice and training session. So, for the above reasons, the first objective target is to have the ball 65% of the time. Although it is not the sole objective, the possession percentage is not just a meaningless statistic, it has specific returns at 65%.

       •If we have 65% of the ball then I do not want a large proportion of this to be in our own half. You see this where teams dominate possession but never hurt the opposition. To get our best attacking players on the ball in areas where they can hurt the opposition, they need to be receiving in the block and not in front of it. When teams focus too much on playing from the back then game-changing players begin to drop deeper to get on the ball as the game progresses. There is nothing more frustrating than seeing players like Hazard, Sánchez or Coutinho dropping in front of the midfield block and looking up at two lines ahead.

       •The players who change the game need to be receiving within 35m of the opposition’s goal and ideally in the spaces in between the lines. To do this, we need the opposition closer to their goal and in a low block. Therefore the idea of playing out from the back should be to progress the opposition’s block up the pitch where they are sitting in front of their own goal as opposed to allowing them to press us 25m from our goal. Playing out from the back is imperative to getting the opposition just in front of their goal, however it is not only naive but dangerous to solely focus on this philosophy. There are specific movements, rotations and actions required to progress a philosophy from playing from the back to getting the opposition defending in their own half. The difference is huge.

       •Once we have got the opposition defending deep, we will automatically now have a lot of the ball and most of the time will achieve the 65% domination. If the opposition are in a low block sitting in front of their own goal then this is physically and mentally very demanding to do for long periods. It saps their energy, it drains their concentration and they give up on trying to even have the ball because they are so far from our goal when they regain. If we are in this position then they are 80-90m from our goal. If we focus on playing from the back and bouncing midfielders for long periods then not only are we more open to counters but we are now 25m from our goal.
       
      •Once we can get the opposition to a point where their striker is detached from the midfield and defensive line then their only option on the turnover is to go long to a sole player. At this point several things are vital in order to retain the philosophy. On the turnover of possession, the five second press is imperative to keep them deep. Players must close the net quickly and get pressure on the ball, centre-backs must engage and double up on their striker and not allow the opposition to get comfortable possession. Again, there are specific movements and actions required depending on the system employed.

       •Once we regain possession, we need to quickly shift it out of the pressure zone and to a spare player. Guardiola works off a simple principle which was influenced by Cruyff; the player who has pressed the ball has focused all his energy on regaining the ball therefore he has the worst ‘map’ of the pitch. He has no idea on our positional slots or shape therefore his only focus should be to offload the ball as fast as possible to anybody. The second pass out of the press should be focused on shifting the ball out of the pressure zone and to find the space on the pitch. Whilst these two passes are happening, on the third pass our shape should now be one with width and depth again. The cycle now begins again where we circulate the ball, show patience in possession and keep the opposition in front of their goal.
       
      “This is my philosophy as a simple structure. The actual system has to be built around the players that are in the squad. The system has two functions – to bring out the best in the best players whilst being setup to give them the best chance of achieving the above philosophy.”
       
      Did any teams or coaches influence your philosophy?
       
      “From the age of eight I was brought up watching a philosophy that was different to the one I was part of in this country. My dad bought me old video tapes of Brazil in the 70s and Barcelona with Cruyff pulling the strings. In Euro 96 when all my friends were cheering England, my dad sat me down watching Hierro playing from the back for Spain so this culture was built into me from very young. From a philosophy point of view, my main influences are obvious.
       
      “Roberto inspired me so much at Wigan and I was fortunate enough to manage his camp in Catalonia for him. From an educational point of view, I developed lots working with Alex Inglethorpe, Pep Lljinders, and Mick Beale at Liverpool. My first job in coaching was given to me by Nick Cox at Watford – he took a chance on me when no one else would and he provided me with a great foundation. I am hugely influenced by Bielsa particularly with his intensity, attention to detail and the tactical flexibility that he constantly possesses. And lastly, Guardiola’s effective reinvention of the game is my biggest influence.”
       
      Does your philosophy influence the type of player you look to recruit?
       
      “Hugely. If I was recruiting from a first team point of view then I would recruit specific profiles that I need to achieve the above philosophy, not to suit a specific system. I know that for the philosophy to work I need very specific profiles – these would be completely different if I wanted my team to drop to a low block and counter. Recruitment of players is more important than any coaching session, idea or principle. And it’s not as simple as buying a game changer to hurt teams 1v1 in the block or finding a passer to sit in front of the back four and pull the strings.
       
      “For example, I know that if I want to dominate the ball for 65% of the time then I need a centre-back who can stop turns on the transition and defend 1v1 – in order to keep the opposition in their half. I don’t necessarily need a centre back with pace or mobility if he can see danger early and prevents strikers turning on the transition. But then, he needs someone next to him who can defend the spaces in behind should we not press the ball quick enough.
       
      “The recruitment of first team players for a specific function is different to that of youth players. In academies, you are looking for one thing: long-term potential. And this looks different in every player and position. We don’t care if we lose the game this Sunday 6-0 because the first team manager will want to know if a player can technically compete at the elite level at 19. When he breaks into the first team the manager isn’t going to ask him what score he won away at Burnley six years earlier. Therefore, coaches in youth football have to sacrifice their ego and ‘status’ for the long term gain of the players – this is easier said than done.”
       
      During your time at Liverpool you would’ve worked alongside Pepijn Lijnders; as a highly regarded youth coach, what is he like to work with?
       
      “There are lots of charlatans in the professional game who are in high profile positions because of who they know but Pep is the best coach I have ever worked with. His intensity, energy and passion is unparalleled and his knowledge both tactically and how to develop players from an individual point of view is incredible. I have no doubt he will manage one day in the Premier League and I feel fortunate to have worked side-by-side with him for a prolonged period. He’s a great guy off the field too.”
       
      Do you think set pieces are under-utilised in the modern game?
       
      “It is becoming harder to score from set pieces because teams are set up so well to not concede from them. Often teams have 11 players behind the ball and sacrifice trying to counter from them for fear of conceding. Personally, I like to control the opposition so I take risks from defending set pieces leaving lots of players out for the counter. If I am defending a set piece and I leave three players high – with relevant profiles to counter and poor profiles to defend aerially – then the opposition have no option than to leave a minimum of three back. If they do this, we now have less players to focus on defensively and our goalkeeper has more space to attack and claim (he has the highest aerial reach than any player therefore needs more space).
       
      “I trust the players whose job it is to defend through a part zonal/man marking system and take out the players who would never defend properly anyway. From an attacking point of view, I think a lot of managers neglect the principles and philosophy and focus more on how to score from set pieces. I have been in team talks as a player where managers spend every minute of their pre match giving instructions on set pieces.”
       
      You’ve been fortunate enough to work with both Roberto Martínez and Brendan Rodgers. Tell us about the experience of working with two highly-rated, young Premier League managers.
       
      “I feel extremely fortunate to have worked in a managerial development capacity under both managers’ philosophies. I had to present the academy philosophy to Roberto and he was extremely specific about his ideas on how to develop players long term. The detail he goes into is forensic; people wouldn’t believe the level he goes into. Ironically, I used to travel the country to watch Swansea under Brendan and Wigan under Roberto.
       
      “I loved the way Rodgers dominated the ball against bigger teams, playing from the back constantly with a very fluid and interchangeable 4-3-3. Watching Wigan under Roberto was incredible as they were the only team in the Premier League playing a back three and dominated opponents continually staying in the Premier League when they had no right to. One of my best moments in football was being at the FA Cup final when Wigan outclassed Man City as 10-1 underdogs. When you understand the tactics Roberto used to manage that game, you realise what level he really is at.”
       
      What’s your long term goal?
       
      “My long term goal is to manage at the highest level possible. At the moment I am learning continually and have specific areas I need to develop in order to reach my goals. I underachieved as a player and am determined to not do so as a coach. This is my driving force and motivation on a daily basis. I have worked with some of the best coaches in the world and it burns me inside that I don’t have their knowledge. You only know how much you don’t know when you see the best people operate, whatever your occupation is. People may read stuff online or watch Gary Neville on Monday nights and think they could do it but they don’t understand the complexities of the very elite level.”
       
      I’ve had the pleasure of reading your book, for those that haven’t why should they buy it?
       
      “Since I started coaching at 16, I have a black box which I record every session I either saw or took part in as a player. Two years ago I sat down and pulled out all of the best ones and put them into a book which turned into Developing An Elite Coaching Philosophy In Possession. The book is for coaches who are working with good players and want some detail to use in sessions or when building their philosophy. The first section is the beginning of the theory as to why you want to create a specific philosophy with the second half being dozens of sessions to use with coaching points that I would personally highlight. The sessions that I have put in the book are ones that I have personally seen delivered by Premier League coaches. I received emails from people asking for specific ideas on sessions therefore I thought it would be good to release a book containing them.”
       
      Finally, away from football what do you do to relax? People have an impression coaches just live for football.
       
      “For years I lived for the game and would be working from 9am to 3am the next morning. At Wigan I was responsible for the whole academy therefore I was the last one to leave at 10pm. When I got home from sessions late at night, I would be editing the clips from the games/sessions to show the players what they needed. I would be downloading games that I had just seen on Sky to clip out a two second receiving clip that one of my players needed to see. I would be searching for Chile games under Bielsa or trying to find Ajax from the 90s to see if there was anything tactical that was different.
       
      “Although this working pattern is extreme, I think you have to put those hours in to get to where you want to. All of the best coaches I have worked with are exactly the same. There are no shortcuts. As Floyd Mayweather says, ‘hard work and dedication’. Nowadays I try to switch off when I come home and forget about football. I have learned to do this as it drains your passion if you are not careful and you start counting the days down until May. Away from football I manage a business which I have to look after, I love good food, spend time with friends and family and have just bought a saxophone to learn.”


      http://thesefootballtimes.co/2015/08/26/tim-lees-coaching-possession-youth-development/

      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #48: Aug 26, 2015 06:56:00 pm
      Yeah mate pleanty agree with you... All that karma, right?

      But are they agreeing with the beautiful, romantic notion that it would be great to see more local lads should be coming through or the original point - "looking to the transfer market is destined to fail"?

      'Cause if they're agreeing with the original point (not the revised version) they too are talking sh*te. If on the other hand - it's the revised romantic notion then fair enough... I can see that... Although It offers only the problem without hint of a solution: it reads well and it certainly tugs at the heartstrings.

      While we're waiting for the problem to be fixed - like every successful club, we'll just have use the transfer market.

      Didn't young Gomez look good tonight btw?



      Another thing, if you seem to take issue with my stance that only looking in the transfer market isn't going to see us reach the top (and you seem to be taking it personally judging by your sneers), then tell me one club that has "just done it through the transfer market". Now that excludes the money bag clubs as they have unlimited funds to buy their way out of trouble - I still cannot believe how some are finding it difficult to distinguish between those clubs and ours.  :lmao:

      So for those clubs under the elite at the moment (your Dortmunds, Athletico Madrids), which ones have jumped the big guns by just playing the transfer market?

      Because as far as I'm aware, those clubs that jump the big guns played the transfer market AND had a prosperous youth system.

      It is narrow minded for anyone to think the answers are only in the transfer market. That's the result of the Football Manager and FIFA generation in that they have never realised the importance of academies. Nor does the modern fan have any patience regarding the academy. It's always a quick fix solution at throwing money at a problem and usually ending up wasting a lot of money as a result.

      reddebs
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #49: Aug 26, 2015 08:33:43 pm
      Although this is a good debate to be having, I'm confused as to what people are expecting from the Academy.

      There's been reference to the lack of local talent within the 1st team setup since Carra, Stevie and Owen broke through but that doesn't mean we aren't producing, they just aren't/weren't of the required quality.  If any of you can remember back to the last time we won the FA Youth Trophy in 2007 these were our squads for both legs of the final.

      1st leg.

      1    Denmark    GK    Martin Hansen
      2    England    DF    Stephen Darby
      3    England    DF    Michael Burns
      4    England    DF    Jay Spearing (c)
      5    England    DF    Robbie Threlfall
      6    England    MF    Charlie Barnett
      7    Republic of Ireland    MF    Jimmy Ryan
      8    Scotland    MF    Ryan Flynn
      9    England    FW    Craig Lindfield
      10    England    FW    Lee Woodward Substituted off 67'
      11    England    MF    Ray Putterill
      12    England    FW    Steven Irwin
      13    England    GK    David Roberts
      14    England    MF    Sean Highdale
      15    England    MF    Ben Parsonage
      16    England    FW    Nathan Eccleston Substituted in 67'

      2nd leg.

      1    England    GK    David Roberts
      2    England    DF    Jay Spearing (c)
      3    England    DF    Robbie Threlfall
      4    England    DF    Stephen Darby
      5    England    DF    Michael Burns
      6    Republic of Ireland    MF    Jimmy Ryan Substituted off 94'
      7    England    MF    Ray Putterill
      8    Scotland    MF    Ryan Flynn
      9    England    FW    Craig Lindfield
      10    Sweden    FW    Astrit Ajdarević Substituted off 81'
      11    England    MF    Charlie Barnett
      Sub    England    GK    Josh Mimms
      Sub    England    DF    Steven Irwin Substituted in 81'
      Sub    England    MF    Sean Highdale
      Sub    England    MF    Ben Parsonage
      Sub    England    FW    Lee Woodward Substituted in 94'

      Not many recognisable names on those team sheets, although I'm guessing most of them are still playing at some level.  Darby has done well and is Captain at Bradford, Spearing is floating around the Championship somewhere and Martin Hansen scored an amazing goal at the start of the season, even though he's a 'Keeper.

      So in 2009 Rafa overhauls the Academy, brings in two amazing Youth Coaches and more recently Brendan has brought in a whole team of new people as he was unhappy that despite the talent being there, the players were totally unprepared for life as professional players.  Our young players are now being coached from an early age not just to be technically proficient but mentally prepared for what awaits them away from the cocoon of Academy life.

      These things take time though and 6 years is not long enough to produce results, unless you get a truly prodigeous talent like Raheem coming through (yes I know he joined us at 15).

      So back to the expectations, what are you all hoping for?

      2 or 3 breaking through every season or so?  The odd squad player every couple of years?

      With regards to recruiting local talent, we do, from the ages of 4 or 5 we scour all the local schools, have open days etc, they then sign up properly at age 7 and if they're good enough they get offered a pro contract at 17. 

      But what do you refer to as "local"?  We currently don't have many "Scousers" left by the time they reach the u21s but we do have players from the surrounding areas who have been at the Academy since they were 8, 9, 10 years old. 

      With reagrds to "creating" talent, well no you can't.  You can develop it if it's there in the first place but there's so many hurdles these kids go through to even get to the contract offer stage and so much that can go wrong after they've signed it that it's almost impossible for them to succeed.

      Interested to hear your thoughts folks.
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #50: Aug 26, 2015 08:50:02 pm
      Although this is a good debate to be having, I'm confused as to what people are expecting from the Academy.

      There's been reference to the lack of local talent within the 1st team setup since Carra, Stevie and Owen broke through but that doesn't mean we aren't producing, they just aren't/weren't of the required quality.  If any of you can remember back to the last time we won the FA Youth Trophy in 2007 these were our squads for both legs of the final.

      1st leg.

      1    Denmark    GK    Martin Hansen
      2    England    DF    Stephen Darby
      3    England    DF    Michael Burns
      4    England    DF    Jay Spearing (c)
      5    England    DF    Robbie Threlfall
      6    England    MF    Charlie Barnett
      7    Republic of Ireland    MF    Jimmy Ryan
      8    Scotland    MF    Ryan Flynn
      9    England    FW    Craig Lindfield
      10    England    FW    Lee Woodward Substituted off 67'
      11    England    MF    Ray Putterill
      12    England    FW    Steven Irwin
      13    England    GK    David Roberts
      14    England    MF    Sean Highdale
      15    England    MF    Ben Parsonage
      16    England    FW    Nathan Eccleston Substituted in 67'

      2nd leg.

      1    England    GK    David Roberts
      2    England    DF    Jay Spearing (c)
      3    England    DF    Robbie Threlfall
      4    England    DF    Stephen Darby
      5    England    DF    Michael Burns
      6    Republic of Ireland    MF    Jimmy Ryan Substituted off 94'
      7    England    MF    Ray Putterill
      8    Scotland    MF    Ryan Flynn
      9    England    FW    Craig Lindfield
      10    Sweden    FW    Astrit Ajdarević Substituted off 81'
      11    England    MF    Charlie Barnett
      Sub    England    GK    Josh Mimms
      Sub    England    DF    Steven Irwin Substituted in 81'
      Sub    England    MF    Sean Highdale
      Sub    England    MF    Ben Parsonage
      Sub    England    FW    Lee Woodward Substituted in 94'

      Not many recognisable names on those team sheets, although I'm guessing most of them are still playing at some level.  Darby has done well and is Captain at Bradford, Spearing is floating around the Championship somewhere and Martin Hansen scored an amazing goal at the start of the season, even though he's a 'Keeper.

      So in 2009 Rafa overhauls the Academy, brings in two amazing Youth Coaches and more recently Brendan has brought in a whole team of new people as he was unhappy that despite the talent being there, the players were totally unprepared for life as professional players.  Our young players are now being coached from an early age not just to be technically proficient but mentally prepared for what awaits them away from the cocoon of Academy life.

      These things take time though and 6 years is not long enough to produce results, unless you get a truly prodigeous talent like Raheem coming through (yes I know he joined us at 15).

      So back to the expectations, what are you all hoping for?

      2 or 3 breaking through every season or so?  The odd squad player every couple of years?

      With regards to recruiting local talent, we do, from the ages of 4 or 5 we scour all the local schools, have open days etc, they then sign up properly at age 7 and if they're good enough they get offered a pro contract at 17. 

      But what do you refer to as "local"?  We currently don't have many "Scousers" left by the time they reach the u21s but we do have players from the surrounding areas who have been at the Academy since they were 8, 9, 10 years old. 

      With reagrds to "creating" talent, well no you can't.  You can develop it if it's there in the first place but there's so many hurdles these kids go through to even get to the contract offer stage and so much that can go wrong after they've signed it that it's almost impossible for them to succeed.

      Interested to hear your thoughts folks.

      At the very least Debs, a lot of us are hoping for players to come and fill the squad so we have good strength and depth, rather than pumping it full of average players from the transfer market. Now of course every club is going to buy an average player now and then, but we really have been taking the biscuit with regards to the inadequate squad players bought in the last 20 odd years.

      Bang average squad players in recent years concerns the likes of Assaidi, Luis Alberto, Manquillo, Moses, Aspas, Cissokho, etc. Combine loan fees, transfer fees and wages, and that's a very expensive way to go about merely making up the numbers with no hint of use there at all.

      If we could get a healthy number of academy lads into the senior squad, it would save us the money and effort in wasting transfer funds on, well, wasters. Of all the bargain bin rubbish we've picked up over the years, imagine if we had a capable academy and that the transfer funds spent on wasters could have instead been put towards the player we really need.

      As far as I'm concerned, success at a club like Liverpool which is unable to compete financially has to emphasise the top-down measure of smart transfer acquisitions and good management, and the bottom up measure of developing capable talent for Liverpool FC. If those two measures meet in the middle, then we succeed and leapfrog financially superior clubs. Best examples are Dortmund and Athletico Madrid who pursued both top down and bottom up measures to outsmart their financially superior rivals. If we neglect one of these factors, we won't see ourselves competing consistently at the top level.

      It provides that rational avenue to success and, at the very least if it can provide local talent, provides the communitarian benefit of Liverpool FC's original purpose in providing links to the people of Liverpool and the football club (that promise is what separates us from other clubs no?). A small minded attitude would suggest that the emphasis on youth is 'mere sentimental bullshit' but those fans are at the mercy of the vast commercialism of the game and the 'quick fix' solutions that are a hindrance on the game.

      There's no patience with regards to the academy - the thing with today's modern football fan is that the run-of-the-mill fan doesn't look long term. They want it now and they want it all done quickly. Well, I'm sorry but patience is a virtue, and if we do things right at the youth coaching level and are patient with it, the academy will in future years provide the perfect sustainability by which we can to propel ourselves to greatness once again. Without any emphasis on it, we will merely be desperately treading water, deluding ourselves that a smart signing is going to help us beat Man City or Utd's £80 million record signing.
      « Last Edit: Aug 26, 2015 09:06:07 pm by Son Of A Gun »
      HScRed1
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #51: Aug 26, 2015 09:05:36 pm
      Nobody can deny that having an academy full of talent is not a great thing to have, however the primary objective for LFC is success on the pitch so if that means buying the required player - Coutinho, Suarez et al recently then that should be the priority.

      As for the importance of having scousers, imo it's not that simple and easy because Merseyside is geographically a small area compared to the rest of Europe. Look at our recent youngsters....... Raheem and Ibe both came through the academy but originally from London. Even Gomez and Clyne both cockneys but young and hungry to play for LFC.

      For me the academy is important but where those youngsters come from is secondary and even then if the talent is not as good as what one of the richest clubs in the world can buy to improve the first team, then that takes priority before academy players being given a chance.
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #52: Aug 26, 2015 09:26:00 pm
      Nobody can deny that having an academy full of talent is not a great thing to have, however the primary objective for LFC is success on the pitch so if that means buying the required player - Coutinho, Suarez et al recently then that should be the priority.

      As for the importance of having scousers, imo it's not that simple and easy because Merseyside is geographically a small area compared to the rest of Europe. Look at our recent youngsters....... Raheem and Ibe both came through the academy but originally from London. Even Gomez and Clyne both cockneys but young and hungry to play for LFC.

      For me the academy is important but where those youngsters come from is secondary and even then if the talent is not as good as what one of the richest clubs in the world can buy to improve the first team, then that takes priority before academy players being given a chance.

      I don't know why you think we are arguing with signing the likes of Coutinho and Suarez. That is not the point. But if the likes of yourself and bad boy bubbly delude yourself in thinking buying bargain bin tripe is helping our transfer policy rather than developing youth and giving it an opportunity instead, then that is pathetic. The argument is to stop looking at the transfer market for these mere squad players. It doesn't work.

      You and bubbly sneer at me saying merely "pursuing the transfer market will fail", but take a close look, and besides the select few players who have been a success, the majority of Liverpool signings have been total sh*t. And as a result, the last two decades we have been way way off where we want to be, having never consistently challenged. And that to me is failure by Liverpool's high standards.

      In our glory years, we could pursue a record transfer fee for Dalglish. Why? Because we had capable youth players who had made it through the ranks to the senior squad like David Fairclough in striker too. So we had the money to spend on one world class player and a capable deputy in Fairclough. These days, it's not about breaking a transfer record with Liverpool, but spreading and juggling a transfer fund to buy two strikers who are decent but not world class - good, but not good enough. If we had capable players from the youth ranks, that would give us the depth, as opposed to missing out on a top top player because we need to spread the transfer funds around the squad to desperately fill he squad quota. Similar situation with Dortmund too in their peak - no need to be stingy with pursuing their desired player because the youth already provided capable back up.

      It's no 'fluke' that teams like Dortmund produce capable talent worthy of their team. It is down to coaching and developing a young player the right way. I'm encouraged that Brendan realises this and has reformed the academy (but it will take patience for the players to come through).

      If you think merely pursuing the transfer market is the only option, then by all means, go ahead with that view, but remember what Einstein said about insanity as "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".
      « Last Edit: Aug 26, 2015 09:40:50 pm by Son Of A Gun »
      HScRed1
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #53: Aug 26, 2015 10:16:36 pm
      Apologies if you think I am sneering at you........

      I have been on record many times against the low risk £10M punt which incidentally has barely ever paid off and in fact if you add up all those punts we probably could have afforded the likes of Ronaldo, who Houlier at the time thought was asking for too high wages!

      You mention Dortmund but tell me how many of their players are local boys they have devolped, Reus, Hummells, Kagawa, Auybameyang, Miktarayan or even Lewandowski?
      I can only think of Goetze so not that different from LFC, but difference being they have bought some quality players and dare I say it under a quality manager who got the best from those players!

      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #54: Aug 26, 2015 10:57:31 pm
      Apologies if you think I am sneering at you........

      I have been on record many times against the low risk £10M punt which incidentally has barely ever paid off and in fact if you add up all those punts we probably could have afforded the likes of Ronaldo, who Houlier at the time thought was asking for too high wages!

      You mention Dortmund but tell me how many of their players are local boys they have devolped, Reus, Hummells, Kagawa, Auybameyang, Miktarayan or even Lewandowski?
      I can only think of Goetze so not that different from LFC, but difference being they have bought some quality players and dare I say it under a quality manager who got the best from those players!



      Well, Gotze and Grosskreutz are the two World Cup winners produced from that academy, as well as Reus, Sahin and Schmelzer who are current first team stars. If it weren't for the poaching of star players (Gotze one of course, but the others remain), they would have more in the squad.

      That's just four key first team players, there are others who are on the senior squad fringe. Four doesn't seem a lot but that's probably the good handful that is required (again, I'm not expecting the match day squad to be full to the brim). Now that's saving a good chunk of the transfer budget just on those players - even a few squad places filled saves a lot which can be put in the pot towards the best player available in the market.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #55: Aug 29, 2015 10:48:13 am
      Now that excludes the money bag clubs as they have unlimited funds to buy their way out of trouble - I still cannot believe how some are finding it difficult to distinguish between those clubs and ours.  :lmao:

      And yet, the intelligent in our midsts still "can't believe" that there are still 'Reds' who do not realise that we are a F***ing "money bags club" - 8th richest in the world, in fact. Then again: the definition of "money bags clubs"  probably moves (along with the goalposts, yet again) to suit the 'argument' and only the 7 richest clubs in the world are "money bags clubs"; eh?  :roll:

      We have money... loads of the stuff. To the extent that we spent £350m in the past 5 seasons.

      However all the money debate does is move the goal posts in an an attempt to obfuscate the Academy issue.

      Do all or any successful clubs look to the transfer market, for answers?

      Do any of them produce big numbers of kids [through their respective academies] good enough to force their way into a team with very high ambitions?

      Are we really being asked to believe that any of this really down to those clubs having... a) sh*t coaches and b) not recruiting enough locals?   :roll:

      It is narrow minded for anyone to think the answers are only in the transfer market.
      It is indeed: who, exactly, said that it was the "only" answer btw?  :dunce2:

      The answer is probably a balance of the two [youth & experience]
      Eleven days ago...  :laugh:

      That is not the point. But if the likes of yourself and bad boy bubbly delude yourself in thinking buying bargain bin tripe is helping our transfer policy
      Oh dear... again with the lies. Why are you making sh*t up - did we actually say that or did you imagine it?   :lmao:

      Seriously mate: when you're wrong, you're wrong... accept it and move on - don't invent sh*t to suit your argument.

      The truth? The debate started when you said we should give Rossiter a chance instead of buying Illarramendi. If you believe Illarramendi is "bargin bin tripe" and not as good as Jordan Rossiter then fair enough, you are, like everyone else, entitled to your opinion but do yourself a favour and stay away from the lies buddy - they make you look a tad childish and a bit of a slow-witted ball-bag. 

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Although this is a good debate to be having, I'm confused as to what people are expecting from the Academy.

      So anyhow... back to expectation.

      My expectations are quite simple and honest:

      Pastoral: that our club continues to look after the educational well being of every kid in it's care and more importantly, it gives them the support to cope when they fail to make it - which, if we are being honest and dealing in facts, most of them will [just like the 99.99% of all kids at all academies btw].

      Football: the Academy keeps working with and keeps recruiting the best young lads the club can attract: in  the hope [like every other club] that they can unearth that one special player. That one kid, in a million, who will ever be good enough to play in the premier league for a top club.

      If and when that unearthing happens; I (personally) have every faith that Liverpool F.C. will give that kid his chance - just like we have always done [Flanno being living proof of that].

      Although, the fact remains - we could just cave in to the romanticism of it all and give more and more Academy [and local] kids a regular place on the team - you know; kids who could hold down a place at mid-table club, with limited ambition, like Swansea, Palace, Southampton and West Ham (for example). Then again, if we do; we obviously run the risk of becoming one of those clubs.

      Is that a sacrifice worth making? No, not for me, it isn't but each 'Red' to their own.
      « Last Edit: Aug 29, 2015 12:09:05 pm by bad boy bubby »
      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #56: Aug 29, 2015 08:07:48 pm
      And yet, the intelligent in our midsts still "can't believe" that there are still 'Reds' who do not realise that we are a f**king "money bags club" - 8th richest in the world, in fact. Then again: the definition of "money bags clubs"  probably moves (along with the goalposts, yet again) to suit the 'argument' and only the 7 richest clubs in the world are "money bags clubs"; eh?  :roll:

      We have money... loads of the stuff. To the extent that we spent £350m in the past 5 seasons.

      However all the money debate does is move the goal posts in an an attempt to obfuscate the Academy issue.

      Do all or any successful clubs look to the transfer market, for answers?

      Do any of them produce big numbers of kids [through their respective academies] good enough to force their way into a team with very high ambitions?

      Are we really being asked to believe that any of this really down to those clubs having... a) sh*t coaches and b) not recruiting enough locals?   :roll:
      It is indeed: who, exactly, said that it was the "only" answer btw?  :dunce2:
       Eleven days ago...  :laugh:
      Oh dear... again with the lies. Why are you making sh*t up - did we actually say that or did you imagine it?   :lmao:

      Seriously mate: when you're wrong, you're wrong... accept it and move on - don't invent sh*t to suit your argument.

      The truth? The debate started when you said we should give Rossiter a chance instead of buying Illarramendi. If you believe Illarramendi is "bargin bin tripe" and not as good as Jordan Rossiter then fair enough, you are, like everyone else, entitled to your opinion but do yourself a favour and stay away from the lies buddy - they make you look a tad childish and a bit of a slow-witted ball-bag. 

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      So anyhow... back to expectation.

      My expectations are quite simple and honest:

      Pastoral: that our club continues to look after the educational well being of every kid in it's care and more importantly, it gives them the support to cope when they fail to make it - which, if we are being honest and dealing in facts, most of them will [just like the 99.99% of all kids at all academies btw].

      Football: the Academy keeps working with and keeps recruiting the best young lads the club can attract: in  the hope [like every other club] that they can unearth that one special player. That one kid, in a million, who will ever be good enough to play in the premier league for a top club.

      If and when that unearthing happens; I (personally) have every faith that Liverpool F.C. will give that kid his chance - just like we have always done [Flanno being living proof of that].

      Although, the fact remains - we could just cave in to the romanticism of it all and give more and more Academy [and local] kids a regular place on the team - you know; kids who could hold down a place at mid-table club, with limited ambition, like Swansea, Palace, Southampton and West Ham (for example). Then again, if we do; we obviously run the risk of becoming one of those clubs.

      Is that a sacrifice worth making? No, not for me, it isn't but each 'Red' to their own.

      If you really think we can compete with the likes of City and Chelsea, then god help us, you really are stupid. 8th richest you say?! Oh goody! That must mean we are rolling in it - until you realise there are four clubs above us in the same league on that list that are wealthier than us. Duh..... :dunce2:

      You've spun bullshit into me saying that looking into the transfer market is destined to fail on the other thread - but if you were a tad bit more literate you would have seen 'only' looking there would fail.  :smack: Key word - ONLY.... Oh hang on a minute, you've just acknowledged it now! Dunce's hat for bad boy bubby please! But hey, calling people liars is a nice wee defence mechanism there isn't it? Fact is pal, you bring it on yourself - your overly pedantic bullshit and spinning of people's posts makes you look like the kid in class who thinks he's a smart arse, but in reality is an insecure dim wit. I've seen you do it to Diego's posting a month ago with your patronising and condescending manner. As Frankly Mr Shankly said, stop with the sneers and arrogance - this argument was very dignified before you started with your typical arrogance, you're not quite as clever as you like to think you are. Others see it on this forum, so its time to take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror. If you want a dignified argument, don't be shocked when it turns out like this with your smart-arse attitude comes along and taunts other people. Makes you look like a REAL dickhead.  xxxxx:action-smiley-065:
      « Last Edit: Aug 29, 2015 08:32:11 pm by Son Of A Gun »
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #57: Aug 29, 2015 08:37:33 pm
      And yet, the intelligent in our midsts still "can't believe" that there are still 'Reds' who do not realise that we are a f**king "money bags club" - 8th richest in the world, in fact. Then again: the definition of "money bags clubs"  probably moves (along with the goalposts, yet again) to suit the 'argument' and only the 7 richest clubs in the world are "money bags clubs"; eh?  :roll:

      We have money... loads of the stuff. To the extent that we spent £350m in the past 5 seasons.

      However all the money debate does is move the goal posts in an an attempt to obfuscate the Academy issue.

      Do all or any successful clubs look to the transfer market, for answers?

      Do any of them produce big numbers of kids [through their respective academies] good enough to force their way into a team with very high ambitions?

      Are we really being asked to believe that any of this really down to those clubs having... a) sh*t coaches and b) not recruiting enough locals?   :roll:
      It is indeed: who, exactly, said that it was the "only" answer btw?  :dunce2:
       Eleven days ago...  :laugh:
      Oh dear... again with the lies. Why are you making sh*t up - did we actually say that or did you imagine it?   :lmao:

      Seriously mate: when you're wrong, you're wrong... accept it and move on - don't invent sh*t to suit your argument.

      The truth? The debate started when you said we should give Rossiter a chance instead of buying Illarramendi. If you believe Illarramendi is "bargin bin tripe" and not as good as Jordan Rossiter then fair enough, you are, like everyone else, entitled to your opinion but do yourself a favour and stay away from the lies buddy - they make you look a tad childish and a bit of a slow-witted ball-bag. 

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      So anyhow... back to expectation.

      My expectations are quite simple and honest:

      Pastoral: that our club continues to look after the educational well being of every kid in it's care and more importantly, it gives them the support to cope when they fail to make it - which, if we are being honest and dealing in facts, most of them will [just like the 99.99% of all kids at all academies btw].

      Football: the Academy keeps working with and keeps recruiting the best young lads the club can attract: in  the hope [like every other club] that they can unearth that one special player. That one kid, in a million, who will ever be good enough to play in the premier league for a top club.

      If and when that unearthing happens; I (personally) have every faith that Liverpool F.C. will give that kid his chance - just like we have always done [Flanno being living proof of that].

      Although, the fact remains - we could just cave in to the romanticism of it all and give more and more Academy [and local] kids a regular place on the team - you know; kids who could hold down a place at mid-table club, with limited ambition, like Swansea, Palace, Southampton and West Ham (for example). Then again, if we do; we obviously run the risk of becoming one of those clubs.

      Is that a sacrifice worth making? No, not for me, it isn't but each 'Red' to their own.

      Surely after today we've got other things on mind than to forensically analyse and then interpret every word (questionably) of fellow posters stances that on the whole have good intentions?

      No offence bbb but I'm having to put protective goggles on whenever I read your posts because the forum dick swinging you undertake from time to time is so extreme that someone's going to get hit in the eye. Jesus f**king Christ - I'm well out of here. Probably just saying what others are thinking but just putting it out there....fella.
      bad boy bubby
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 14,564 posts | 3172 
      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Academy Expectations
      Reply #58: Aug 30, 2015 08:58:47 am
      If you really think we can compete with the likes of City and Chelsea, then god help us, you really are stupid. 8th richest you say?! Oh goody! That must mean we are rolling in it - until you realise there are four clubs above us in the same league on that list that are wealthier than us. Duh..... :dunce2:

      You've spun bullshit into me saying that looking into the transfer market is destined to fail on the other thread - but if you were a tad bit more literate you would have seen 'only' looking there would fail.  :smack: Key word - ONLY.... Oh hang on a minute, you've just acknowledged it now! Dunce's hat for bad boy bubby please! But hey, calling people liars is a nice wee defence mechanism there isn't it? Fact is pal, you bring it on yourself - your overly pedantic bullshit and spinning of people's posts makes you look like the kid in class who thinks he's a smart arse, but in reality is an insecure dim wit. I've seen you do it to Diego's posting a month ago with your patronising and condescending manner. As Frankly Mr Shankly said, stop with the sneers and arrogance - this argument was very dignified before you started with your typical arrogance, you're not quite as clever as you like to think you are. Others see it on this forum, so its time to take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror. If you want a dignified argument, don't be shocked when it turns out like this with your smart-arse attitude comes along and taunts other people. Makes you look like a REAL dickhead.  xxxxx:action-smiley-065:
      I, clearly, have caused you offence - for that I apologise.

      Okay I will start again -  I'll 'say' the following and leave it there...

      I fully accept what you said - i.e.  1: There aren't enough players coming through the academy and 2: An academy player should only play if he is good enough. [is that a fair summary?]

      Now, having accepted that, (looking back), what I suggested, in reply, was - if both statements are accurate (which I believe them to be) then, until such times as we have 'academy' players good enough, to take their place, looking to the transfer market is the only answer. [I believe that is also a fair summary]. This, remember, was all in the context of a transfer link with Illarramendi; yes?

      My point being that: if you need a player for a specific role and you have no one in the Academy good enough then... surely, you must look for "answers" outside of the club and you must, surely, continue to do so... until those players exist.

      I also suggested that Liverpool F.C were no different from any other team, in that respect - I believe that to be true.


      No offence bbb but I'm having to put protective goggles on whenever I read your posts because the forum dick swinging you undertake from time to time is so extreme that someone's going to get hit in the eye

      You wouldn't need glasses for what I'm packing but I take your point [if your 'mates' tell you you're being a dick; you probably are] and I will act on it - no more debate from me; just say my piece and get out. Again... sorry for any offence caused.

      By the way... I've been called many, many, proper offensive names by some really hard men and some really good people; all of which I know and care about but never "stupid", "dunce" and/or 'illiterate': do you think they were just holding back?   :o  :laugh:



      « Last Edit: Aug 30, 2015 09:16:05 am by bad boy bubby »

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