Academy Expectations

 
Yes it is does - I cannot believe some people underestimate the importance of needing to produce talented local lads in a team. It is the clubs duty to create talented lads from the area - and we are failing that big time. It takes a lot of heart and commitment away from the team without it. Imagine if Gerrard and Carragher weren't Liverpool players in that 2005 Champions League final. Wouldn't have won it, simple as that. Imagine if the great Liverpool sides had been deprived of its homegrown talent, then we wouldn't have dominated the game like we did. Again, read my post to show the importance of academies to the successful teams around Europe - it is not mere sentiment that is driving my belief in the importance of the academy. In addition to that, take away a heap of local heroes of the clubs history and you are left with a club without the distinctive identity that we pride ourselves on.

And besides, the promotion of local lads in the squad provides a communitarian link to the city and environment that surrounds Liverpool FC. It is for the benefit of Liverpool and its surroundings that young lads from the area make the grade at the football club.

Let's remember that Liverpool FC was created as a club to provide communitarian benefits - if you lose all of that links - and modern football has seen to it that that has been all but destroyed - then the club ceases the purpose it was originally meant to serve. And for a club that has a proud communitarian heritage, you lose a lot of what makes Liverpool great. What the locals give to the club, the club must give back, and it is the duty of Liverpool FC to serve its people, and providing the city with a renowned youth setup provides a great avenue by which to get young lads into the game.

By all means, in this FIFA and Football Manager generation of football fans, its easy to think this is all trivial. Well that's the marketisation of the game which has brainwashed fans into thinking the importance of the academy is trivial in which we get stupid tw*ts on twitter spouting crap about which players we should get yet have no chance in hell of signing. Relying solely on the transfer market is the narrow minded, modern football fans belief.

It takes INNOVATION within the club (i.e. the academy), as well as SMART THINKING in the transfer market. Relying on just one of these won't see us any success - and it's the latter strategy we have pursued in the 21st century without any hint of concern about our academy. It's no surprise then that we have come up short of our own high expectations of the club for so many years now.

Stop being a melodramatic baby, your not even a a scouser!

How does the lack of hone grown players hinder Chelsea, City, Barca, Madrid etc.

Liverpool has always been about winning trophies and during our most successful In the 70's and 80's it was the Scots and Irish lads who were the stars of the team.

I'm sure there is plenty of amateur teams in Merseyside full of scousers you can follow!

Stop being a melodramatic baby, your not even a a scouser!

How does the lack of hone grown players hinder Chelsea, City, Barca, Madrid etc.

Liverpool has always been about winning trophies and during our most successful In the 70's and 80's it was the Scots and Irish lads who were the stars of the team.

I'm sure there is plenty of amateur teams in Merseyside full of scousers you can follow!

Come off it, so you really believe an academy is not important to a football club?

First of all, you have got to be joking if you think Barca have a lack of homegrown talent! Their entire success since the early 90s have been based upon the La Masia youth setup which was reformed by Rinus Michels and Johan Cruyff, and such reforms provided the team with the foundations upon their four European Cups successes - compare their spending to Madrid in the time period and it is miniscule thanks to the expert implementation of youth reforms. And secondly, the rest don't need to rely on homegrown talent because they have so much money they can buy anyone they want. They are the ultimate elite clubs in terms of finances and have so much they can paper over any cracks concerning inadequate youth setups and I wish fans would get it out of their heads that we are competing in the market with them.

We are not in that category, and if we think we can outwit teams in the transfer market alone, then that is sheer delusion from the club.

I reiterate - the success of Dortmund and Athletico Madrid in jumping above much more financially superior clubs derives from, yes, being clever in the transfer market, but also with a very solid foundation upon which their youth academies provided. Even Rafa in his Valencia years jumped Barca/Madrid with astute signings but also a fantastic youth setup with which he was able to work from. There's a reason why he was shocked at the state of the Academy (read Guillem Ballague's 'Season On The Brink' for details) when he arrived at Liverpool because he realises the importance of it in being able to beat the top dogs.

As far as I'm concerned, the last few years we haven't even been good at both, some downright shameful transfer business and we don't have an academy to build a teams foundation upon. Trying to do it by bringing in squad players and spending a fortune at the same time isn't going to see us magically leapfrog the superior opposition.

I'm not arguing about having a successful academy it was your inference that we can not achieve success without scousers in the team.
Even Barca's academy is full of talent outside of Catalonia.

We are a global team and brand so for all our fans in India, Malaysia, Australia etc I doubt they are interested in the number of scousers in our academy. It's all about trophies hence why we gathered all these fans in the first place.

I'm not arguing about having a successful academy it was your inference that we can not achieve success without scousers in the team.
Even Barca's academy is full of talent outside of Catalonia.

We are a global team and brand so for all our fans in India, Malaysia, Australia etc I doubt they are interested in the number of scousers in our academy. It's all about trophies hence why we gathered all these fans in the first place.

I don't necessarily mean pure scousers but we should be emphasising the creation of talent in and around the Merseyside area, so that means the catchment area surrounding it. There's not enough work being done in terms of that.

I couldn't care less what other fans on the side of the world think - I still believe it is the duty of a club to give back to the community they thrive in. A top academy that creates local heroes certainly gives the die hard local fans more pride in their club, and Anfield would have been a much poorer place without these heroes. If its all about trophies, then those fans should give a damn about the Academy as it proves with European clubs that a thriving academy is the foundation upon which many a trophy is won. The money bags teams can do without it because they have unlimited funds, but we can't. And it is imperative that every Liverpool fan must see the importance and potential an academy can do to a club.

I don't necessarily mean pure scousers but we should be emphasising the creation of talent in and around the Merseyside area, so that means the catchment area surrounding it. There's not enough work being done in terms of that.

I couldn't care less what other fans on the side of the world think - I still believe it is the duty of a club to give back to the community they thrive in. A top academy that creates local heroes certainly gives the die hard local fans more pride in their club, and Anfield would have been a much poorer place without these heroes. If its all about trophies, then those fans should give a damn about the Academy as it proves with European clubs that a thriving academy is the foundation upon which many a trophy is won. The money bags teams can do without it because they have unlimited funds, but we can't. And it is imperative that every Liverpool fan must see the importance and potential an academy can do to a club.

Your 100% correct in this mate, you cannot under estimate the importance of having home grown talent in and around the club, it's not about where any individual player is from, except if you are local, being local means you are familiar with the culture of the City, you know the mindset of those who click thru the turnstiles on a match day, in short, you get the club and what it stands for more than those who are from outside the city,

Being from Glasgow myself, I have a affinity with Scouse folk simply because both Cities are similar in culture, our peoples have had similar social troubled history, so I get it, but I'm still a wool, irrespective of how close we are socially,

As for football, being local you will give more than any player from outside of the club, Carragher and Gerrard are proof that is the case.

YNWA

Your 100% correct in this mate, you cannot under estimate the importance of having home grown talent in and around the club, it's not about where any individual player is from, except if you are local, being local means you are familiar with the culture of the City, you know the mindset of those who click thru the turnstiles on a match day, in short, you get the club and what it stands for more than those who are from outside the city,

Being from Glasgow myself, I have a affinity with Scouse folk simply because both Cities are similar in culture, our peoples have had similar social troubled history, so I get it, but I'm still a wool, irrespective of how close we are socially,

As for football, being local you will give more than any player from outside of the club, Carragher and Gerrard are proof that is the case.

YNWA

Completely agree - it's just not sentiment that drives my desire for a thriving academy. It's for the benefit of the whole club in attempting to win trophies. Everything about the club to these lads who are brought up - from the city's culture, to the club's history, to the match day tactics and training regimes - is second nature to them and deeply embedded in the player's psyche.

They are primed to play for Liverpool right from a very early age, and as a result when they make their debut they are more adapted than any player who is brought in. It is the duty of the club to create talented lads, not just for their ability, but for those inherent tendencies - whether its tactical knowledge, passion and commitment for the club - which provide a club with seamless transition.

Completely agree - it's just not sentiment that drives my desire for a thriving academy. It's for the benefit of the whole club in attempting to win trophies. Everything about the club to these lads who are brought up - from the city's culture, to the club's history, to the match day tactics and training regimes - is second nature to them and deeply embedded in the player's psyche.

They are primed to play for Liverpool right from a very early age, and as a result when they make their debut they are more adapted than any player who is brought in. It is the duty of the club to create talented lads, not just for their ability, but for those inherent tendencies - whether its tactical knowledge, passion and commitment for the club - which provide a club with seamless transition.

Bang on SOAG, couldn't agree more, we definitely need more local lads enrolled from youth level upwards, we have a decent academy but the amount of local talent coming thru it is not good.

YNWA

Does it really matter that much, the vast majority of our fan base is global and not from Merseyside.

Its more important that we start winning trophies than worrying about the how many scousers there are in the team.

Yes it does because football clubs like Liverpool were founded on the basis that it would provide for the community and help empower the society it was surrounded by. Providing an opportunity and aspiration for local youngsters is an aspect of that duty and a duty it is.

It should be the fundamentals of our football club, enshrined and indoctrinated within EVERY Liverpool fan around the world.

It's all very well us pursuing players like Illarramendi but the sheer volume of those we bring in and scout indicates no awareness or trust in our ability to be somewhat self sufficient on a player front.

Yes it does because football clubs like Liverpool were founded on the basis that it would provide for the community and help empower the society it was surrounded by. Providing an opportunity and aspiration for local youngsters is an aspect of that duty and a duty it is.

It should be the fundamentals of our football club, enshrined and indoctrinated within EVERY Liverpool fan around the world.

It's all very well us pursuing players like Illarramendi but the sheer volume of those we bring in and scout indicates no awareness or trust in our ability to be somewhat self sufficient on a player front.

So if the local talent are not as good as Illarra or who ever they should be promoted due to our social conscious towards the local community, from a private company owned by some Americans from Boston USA?

Get real next you lot will be suggesting local scousers go in free to Anfield.

Its very good to have 1/2/3 or even more local lads in the team........BUT they have to be GOOD and BETTER than the non local players LIVERPOOL have to be in the SQUAD, and at the moment there ain't, simple, why did Flanagan (the last local lad that came in the team) Because he was better than the fullbacks with had then,

Now please return to topiv== illarmendi news ,,,or we can discuss the local talent issue in the appropriate thread

YNWA

Again I have to be more specific here - I agree with that, but it's not the long term solution. If we're still doing the same in ten years time then we are just constantly treading water.

Mate... If we're still doing the same ten years from now; by definition it's the long-term solution.

Listen, I get your point but I'm not sure the somewhat romantic notion that we can harvest local kids and simply coach/train them into being good enough to displace/replace players, in a team with lofty ambitions, is viable.

Truth is: I'm not sure that Stevie, Jamie or Robbie (for e.g.) were coached into being the quality they were. If they had been, then why weren't others? 

I mean; you're hardly suggesting that our coaching staff, at the time, concentrated on these few to the detriment of others. Facts are - they were exceptionally gifted.
I guess too that your not just assuming that we don't scout and recruit the best young local talent  - that you actually know we don't? Because that really would be a damming indictment. 

Personally speaking (and without really knowing) - I'm guessing we do.

Which brings me back to the painfully obvious, if uncomfortable...

If they're good enough - they'll make it - it's that simple.

If not - just like kids at Barcelona - they'll either wait in line behind Suarez and Neymar or... end up at Stoke or Everton. 

Bang on SOAG, couldn't agree more, we definitely need more local lads enrolled from youth level upwards, we have a decent academy but the amount of local talent coming thru it is not good.

YNWA

How many do we currently enrol Billy and how many more, in your opinion, should we enrol?

I mean - should we just enrol X amount, every season and hope there's a new Stevie G in there or maybe be more selective [i.e. target the best]?

Could it be that maybe, irrespective of how many we recruit, that there may never be anyone good enough to play for Liverpool? And... that's got nothing to do with either recruitment or coaching

My last thought on the subject - would Jordan Rossiter (for e.g.) be more, or less, likely to make the breakthrough to their first XI if he was at Tranmere's academy? Probably 'yes'...

Does that mean Tranmere's academy coaches are better than ours or, just simply, that have higher standards? 

Not trying to find kids in your clubs local area is a crime to the place and club so yes it should be one of the priority's along with the poaching of other kids from other locations that may never have the loyalty to the place of Liverpool. First big offer... offski.

The number one priority of any club should be to find and nurture talent from the local area. It absolutely is a duty to their community and their surrounding areas and something that must be fostered and catered to as much as possible, particularly at a youth level.

We do see a lot of local talent in our younger setups still, so the effort is there, although they have certainly become more internationalized. But that's simply the trend of the global game. Look at the best youth academy in the world, La Masia in/for Barcelona. A good amount of the top talent they end up producing for first team football isn't even Spanish, but were scouted internationally then raised within the academy.

Another aspect is that fan loyalty isn't the same as it used to be. 30+ years ago, the most passionate Liverpool fans would be found exclusively in Liverpool. Now, the game is much more globalized. You can have kids in Liverpool who are more passionate about another club (domestic or foreign) while other kids in completely other countries could be diehard fans who watch every game, and are far more interested in the club than even the local ones.

Speaking at the first team level: to create an environment in this day and age where you place a selection bias based on players' origin would simply be detrimental to the club. You would fall behind the other clubs who are selecting players strictly on skill level.

Furthermore, I think to suggest that there is significantly more loyalty in local/domestic players is equally mistaken. Many players are more loyal to wages and the manager in charge than they are to clubs and fans, regardless of where they're from. On a whole, local players certainly are more willing to stay at a club for a longer period of time, but there are absolutely no guarantees in modern football anyway and local players are certainly not significantly more loyal, perhaps just slightly, if that.

To speak on the topic so this is at least a viable post, I personally would really like to see Illara, or someone of his type in our current setup. The amount of times we had to resort to Joe Allen, who simply is not good enough, last year was far too often. To have someone of better quality to rely on, or to challenge for those midfield spots would be very beneficial to our side in my opinion. Being said, if we don't go for Illara now, I hope we go for William Carvalho or someone similar to that age and quality in the very near future. Unless Can steps up and takes that role for himself.

Mate... If we're still doing the same ten years from now; by definition it's the long-term solution.

Listen, I get your point but I'm not sure the somewhat romantic notion that we can harvest local kids and simply coach/train them into being good enough to displace/replace players, in a team with lofty ambitions, is viable.

Truth is: I'm not sure that Stevie, Jamie or Robbie (for e.g.) were coached into being the quality they were. If they had been, then why weren't others? 

I mean; you're hardly suggesting that our coaching staff, at the time, concentrated on these few to the detriment of others. Facts are - they were exceptionally gifted.
I guess too that your not just assuming that we don't scout and recruit the best young local talent  - that you actually know we don't? Because that really would be a damming indictment. 

Personally speaking (and without really knowing) - I'm guessing we do.

Which brings me back to the painfully obvious, if uncomfortable...

If they're good enough - they'll make it - it's that simple.

If not - just like kids at Barcelona - they'll either wait in line behind Suarez and Neymar or... end up at Stoke or Everton. 

Well I think there are a few players in the past who, with the right coaching at youth level, could have been coached into viable squad players. My point is we can't even make a decent squad player. I'm not looking for the next Gerrard or Fowler - these players are as you rightly suggest rarities. But say for example if some of the youth players who we released who have made it professionally in lower Premier League clubs or Championship teams were coached to a higher standard at a much earlier age (at the most important stages of development), then yes, I believe they could have been viabile, solid squad players for Liverpool. Again, not necessarily starting XI or star player billing, but good enough for the match day squad.

The problem with Liverpool - and England in particular - in recent decades is the neanderthal coaching methods for kids, and kids in this country are taught at youth level to pretty much be scared of the ball, kick it away at any given opportunity and emphasise physicality and suring up the win. In a nutshell - the Sam Allardyce approach to football. As much as winning is important in football, at an early age it is much more important for kids to be taught how to play football and emphasise technical ability rather than the old English mentality of lumpen, long ball defensive football where kids don't get even half the time on the ball. That might sure up a win, but it does no good whatsoever for the child's development.

The youth levels should therefore be about giving the kids the tools to win games when they are senior players. Any half-arsed pub team can be organised to nullify the opposition, and that pub team mentality has passed over onto the senior professional game and rotted down into the youth game. But by Liverpool FC's own high standard, the technical and attacking football from the glory years is the benchmark by which we must reach. Coaching kids who play with two left feet to stop the opposition isn't getting any club anywhere, and its getting the national team nowhere. The only way we can help ourselves get back to the top is coaching kids the right way, with a supreme emphasis on attacking and technical football, the like of which Ajax and Barca really do set the standard. How this links to Illarramendi is that he is being sought after to provide us with squad depth. Now for £15 million, that's a lot of money for a squad player. Now I might be very wrong, and if he did arrive, he may be an absolute star for us, but even then it doesn't undermine my point when you look back to the likes of players like Luis Alberto being brought in for £8 million, or Igor Biscan for £6 million (quite a lot in 2000), or etc, etc (there are far too many to think about). Think of all the money we have wasted in 25 years on squad players - it is shocking, and imagine if we could get our academy to fill those positions while we pool that extra money into buying a real star player. It really does pay off in the long term if we can get our academy up and running again.

And that is one of the reasons why we haven't won the league in so long - we are constantly spreading the transfer budget around the squad, desperately trying to fill holes that could be filled with a prosperous youth system. The richest clubs can just spend, spend, spend their way out of trouble, but we can't. That is why we must emphasise the production of able talent in our academy.

While I agree with the thought of it in reality you can coach kids till your blue in the face , if they havnt got it you cant give it to them , truth being in any generstion there are really only a handfull  born with the gift  of making it to the top I'd love a team of local lads but if they not good enough they shouldnt be in the squad just because their local .

My point is we can't even make a decent squad player.

Oh... that's your point? Fair enough.

It's just as you had become more and more "specific" and moved further and further away, from what you initially wrote, I'd lost track. Anyhows...

Kelly made the squad and was decent; so too Wisdom. I suppose, just to appease some folk, we could have just kept them, for the matchday squad. Maybe we'll do that with Flanno.

Personally tho' - I'd be reticent to practice any form of positive discrimination as I'm a firm believer of 'best man for the job'.

If, for example, Illarramendi came in (to replace Lucas' role in the team) - I'd keep Lucas, to strengthen the squad and... I've always said [the posts are there, for all to see] that we should spend money on top quality not squad fillers. So I'm glad you agree - the transfer market really is the answer, if you're looking to compete. It's just that you just don't rate Illarramendi.

So it's all good. 

Oh... that's your point? Fair enough.

It's just as you had become more and more "specific" and moved further and further away, from what you initially wrote, I'd lost track. Anyhows...

Kelly made the squad and was decent; so too Wisdom. I suppose, just to appease some folk, we could have just kept them, for the matchday squad. Maybe we'll do that with Flanno.

Personally tho' - I'd be reticent to practice any form of positive discrimination as I'm a firm believer of 'best man for the job'.

If, for example, Illarramendi came in (to replace Lucas' role in the team) - I'd keep Lucas, to strengthen the squad and... I've always said [the posts are there, for all to see] that we should spend money on top quality not squad fillers. So I'm glad you agree - the transfer market really is the answer, if you're looking to compete. It's just that you just don't rate Illarramendi.

So it's all good. 

Well, yeah it always was my point.... as you can see with plenty agreeing with me. Really not that hard to understand.

Don't know where I said we should be creating local talent of Gerrard standard. And what is 'decent' is subjective - Kelly had potential but it was clear for the most part he had no future. I'm talking about squad players who can come in and make a difference and have a long future.

And its not positive discrimination to be creating capable talent for us. It's positive discrimination IF they aren't good enough, but everyone here is talking about making players good enough okay?

And like others said, it is the communitarian duty of the club to provide itself
with local talent - if we forget that then we do ourselves an injustice as a club and supporters.

Oh... that's your point? Fair enough.

It's just as you had become more and more "specific" and moved further and further away, from what you initially wrote, I'd lost track. Anyhows...

Kelly made the squad and was decent; so too Wisdom. I suppose, just to appease some folk, we could have just kept them, for the matchday squad. Maybe we'll do that with Flanno.

Personally tho' - I'd be reticent to practice any form of positive discrimination as I'm a firm believer of 'best man for the job'.

If, for example, Illarramendi came in (to replace Lucas' role in the team) - I'd keep Lucas, to strengthen the squad and... I've always said [the posts are there, for all to see] that we should spend money on top quality not squad fillers. So I'm glad you agree - the transfer market really is the answer, if you're looking to compete. It's just that you just don't rate Illarramendi.

So it's all good. 

What's with the sneer? No need for it. I've enjoyed reading your and SOAG's posts. If you can't use a forum to develop lines of arguments and new threads then there's little point in coming here. As such we've seen a standard, dull thread become an interesting discussion with some superb points made.

What's with the sneer?

No sneer fella - called it as I see it 

The point moved away from the original post - I assume because the point in that post was proven to be sh*te.

On finding out what the point now is - I gave my response which was... I've been saying the same fthing or years and I'm glad SoaG agrees.

No sneer - just fact buddy. Fact not designed to upset either you or SoaG (who the actual debate, you've looked on at and enjoyed so much, has been with).

So anyway, in the spirit of this thread... I reckon our young players did us proud tonight.

Well, yeah it always was my point.... as you can see with plenty agreeing with me.

Yeah mate pleanty agree with you... All that karma, right?

But are they agreeing with the beautiful, romantic notion that it would be great to see more local lads should be coming through or the original point - "looking to the transfer market is destined to fail"?

'Cause if they're agreeing with the original point (not the revised version) they too are talking sh*te. If on the other hand - it's the revised romantic notion then fair enough... I can see that... Although It offers only the problem without hint of a solution: it reads well and it certainly tugs at the heartstrings.

While we're waiting for the problem to be fixed - like every successful club, we'll just have use the transfer market.

Didn't young Gomez look good tonight btw?

Yeah mate pleanty agree with you... All that karma, right?

But are they agreeing with the beautiful, romantic notion that it would be great to see more local lads should be coming through or the original point - "looking to the transfer market is destined to fail"?

'Cause if they're agreeing with the original point (not the revised version) they too are talking sh*te. If on the other hand - it's the revised romantic notion then fair enough... I can see that... Although It offers only the problem without hint of a solution: it reads well and it certainly tugs at the heartstrings.

While we're waiting for the problem to be fixed - like every successful club, we'll just have use the transfer market.

Didn't young Gomez look good tonight btw?

I don't see any revised opinion from any post mate. And I don't think there is bullshit in there as you - as always - condescendingly love to put it. I just think you are being a bit too pedantic on the wording of some posts.

I still believe in the efforts of promoting youth - and promoting means putting full efforts into creating talent, not just merely placing any average youth player in the senior squad, which I think you seem to be mixing up with. Secondly, the answers are still not merely in the transfer market. Like I said, you can call it a romantic notion or sentimental bullshit, but facts prove clubs with prosperous youth systems assist in those clubs just under the elite ones seeing success. Thirdly, I don't see what your problem is in patronising those who believe the club should have a duty towards promoting the youth. If you don't see the point in helping the community that Liverpool FC is situated in, then there is not really any worth in being a Liverpool fan.

I don't see any revised opinion from any post mate. And I don't think there is bullshit in there as you - as always - condescendingly love to put it. I just think you are being a bit too pedantic on the wording of some posts.

I still believe in the efforts of promoting youth - and promoting means putting full efforts into creating talent not just merely placing any average youth player in the senior squad, which I think you seem to be mixing up with. Secondly, the answers are still not merely in the transfer market. Like I said, you can call it a romantic notion or sentimental bullshit, but facts prove clubs with prosperous youth systems assist in those clubs just under the elite ones seeing success. Thirdly, I don't see what your problem is in patronising those who believe the club should have a duty towards promoting the youth. If you don't see the point in helping the community that Liverpool FC is situated in, then there is not really any worth in being a Liverpool fan.

somehow I agree with this
what I don't agree is with the words I highlighted creating talent
IMHO you don't CREATE talent, that you have or you don't
Maybe help develop it YES
but you simply don't create it
YNWA