What's our problem at home?

First things first - Jürgen Klopp is doing very well.  10 games ago even the most optimistisch about our new German manager wouldn't have had us up to 6th, through to the League Cup Quarter Final and qualified out of our European group with a game to spare.

Performances away from home have seen a very substantial improvement.  Seven goals smashed against City and Chelsea - two teams who would have wanted to come out and play football - sandwiched inbetween them our first European away win.  Not a goalfest but a pivotal moment in the European campaign and the first for an English club in Kazan.

At home though the games have seemed to need a bit more graft.  Two shots against a poor Swansea, needing a penalty to take the points.  Beaten by Palace.  Going behind against Bordeaux (another penalty required).  A draw against Southampton and narrowly seeing off Bournemouth in the League Cup.

Much has been made of the fact that we had a difficult start with our away games, but I think our pressing style is maybe more suited away - when the better teams are expected to try and come at us - we win it back - we find them out of position - we can score.

If we're struggling at home against the lesser sides why would we be likely to do better against the 'better sides' in the second half of the season?

The way I see it they could simply come with the same strategy as the Palace's (or Chelsea in spring 2014).  The difference being when they get their chances they will have far better forwards to convert.

So what's our tactical problem at Anfield - and can it be solved without another massive change in the playing squad?

As you have touched on against better teams who want to come out and play our with our high press we can turn the ball over in the oppositions half and they don't have time to reset the defence.

Against the so called poorer teams they are sitting deep and this is where our lack of creativity especially in midfield is glaring.
BTW this is nothing new we had the same issues last season, what's missing is a top quality midfielder who can pick out that pass and split the defence in tight play.
This of course requires movement up front and injuries on that front have not helped.

Of course Benteke as a plan B is a good option but apart from Ibe we have no wide players with pace to get quality crosses in to be attacked.

Players running from deep to overload the opposition will create opportunities and this is something Hendo does really well.

So I would suggest once all our players are back from injury, maybe a couple of additions in the window will improve our creativity.

Of course it would help if the Library woke up and cheered the lads on!

After recently playing away against teams expected to attack us (we've looked good) and at home against teams sitting back (not looked so good) for the next month we've got teams home AND away that are probably going to sit back.

Lallana and Firmino looked great against Man City.  I just don't understand how they (and they're not the only ones) can look so average at home to Swansea who haven't won since August.

Are they good players or not?

Good OP. There are a number of issues I think, none of them insurmountable but when added together we've got a lot to do. Firstly, we don't have anywhere near enough players in the team who score enough goals for their position. We're very good at Liverpool at lauding our players (which is a good thing) be they youngsters coming through or established "stars" from the first team. The simple fact of the matter is however, we are way short of where we need to be in terms of goal threat when teams sit back against us.

If you look at our first choice eleven, neither of our full backs score, one of our centre halves never scores and the other one only occasionally, our holding midfielder never scores and the fella who plays alongside him does so very rarely. Throw in the goalkeeper, and that's seven out of our first choice eleven who in 38 league games would be very lucky to amass five goals between them (infact five is about where they'd be I guess). That leaves a fairly heavy burden on the other four, and of the three in behind the striker Lallana very rarely scores either, Firmino has done rarely so far and we end up with a situation where we are running out of options a bit. Throw in that despite our undoubted better organization at the back we are always likely to let one in, and it's not hard to see why we don't win so many when teams sit back and concentrate on not conceding chances.

The solution? Well as always in football, the cause and effect of one action impacts on another. Attack slightly better and teams will reason that in order to leave with anything they'll likely need to score, which will lead to them "going for it" a bit more. Defend slightly better and with more authority, and teams will reason they need to "go for it" a bit more in order to get that goal. Then the games open up a bit more and we become IMHO a little more dangerous going forward, when we can play "off the cuff" a bit and with more pace.

From a going forward point of view, I've been going on for a while now that we are way under utilising Alberto Moreno and his blistering pace. I'd be looking to get him running directly at the opponents goal as opposed to up and down the line, particularly when the ball is on the right. Lets see if he can't slip him in with a little diagonal, there's no defender in this league who will be able to catch him if the ball is right. My other alteration is that other than Lucas, I'd be telling ALL of our midfielders and supporting strikers to gamble on getting into the box more. Not just getting in there and standing in the either, but aiming to "arrive" at pace at the same time the ball gets there. I don't feel we gamble enough either with just getting it into the box into dangerous channels OR in terms of committing ourselves to get into them in anticipation. I guess that's another cause and effect, get in there and the players crossing might be more inclined to put it there, and vice versa.

All in all though we're going about it the right way. Don't concede then you only need one bit of luck/good play to win it. New signings? Well a box to box midfielder who scores heavily, a la Aaron Ramsey, Kevin Du Broyne etc would be handy. Henderson may be able to do it now he's had the shackles of keeping possession at all costs removed but time will tell. I've always had a feeling Ramirez from Chelsea would excel in such a role, and I confess to like everyone else being hugely impressed by Marez at Leicester, there's something special about him.       

Its no coincidence that we beat Chelsea and City by impressive score lines without Benteke in the starting line up. I know I sound like a broken record but it's true.
.
I've said all along that Benteke might score a goal every 2 games but as a team we would score more without him. He hinders our attack. Although he came on and scored against Chelsea, had he started those two games then we wouldn't have played the way we did or won those two matches.

Whenever Benteke is in the side whether its at home or away then we look absolutely dreadful going forward. There are no options in the final third. He needs delivery and he needs service and we don't provide it to him. Look at his goal against Bordeaux, absolutely brilliant, the ball was played into him with his back to goal, one touch turn and then hits a rocket. We don't get the ball into him enough and instead look for the interchange pass, the 1-2, or even a through ball and Benteke isn't that type of forward.

So although other teams set up differently when they visit Anfield, if we go with Firmino or Sturridge in attack rather than Benteke I'm confident we will win far more than we will draw or lose.

As usual I'm expecting a backlash but lets just have a look at the stats come the end of the season of how many goals we scored with benteke in the side and then without him.

Until Sturridge is fit then I would have firmino leading the line for us every time.

Throw in the goalkeeper, and that's seven out of our first choice eleven who in 38 league games would be very lucky to amass five goals between them (infact five is about where they'd be I guess). That leaves a fairly heavy burden on the other four, and of the three in behind the striker Lallana very rarely scores either,

When you put it like that - yeah no wonder!

I suppose you look at Chelsea last year - Hazard must have been pushing Costa in goals scored - then they have Oscar, Willian, Fabregas.  Not to mention Ivanivic and Terry seem to pick up a few AND they are renowned for having a tight defence.

You're probably right - in the absence of someone like Luis Suarez who can score and assist practically every goal himself our team do not share the goals around very well.

I was expecting more goals from open play from Milner and Firmino no doubt about it. I know Clyne and Skrtel have scored recently but that's very much the exception.  You can't be having some combination of Can, Henderson, Lucas and Milner in the side and for them to go throughout a game without a goalscoring opportunity.

As usual I'm expecting a backlash but lets just have a look at the stats come the end of the season of how many goals we scored with benteke in the side and then without him.

No backlash it's a reasonable point.  We haven't looked as fluid when he has played.  And you're right the system isn't working for him for most of the game - just phases.

Its no coincidence that we beat Chelsea and City by impressive score lines without Benteke in the starting line up. I know I sound like a broken record but it's true.
.
I've said all along that Benteke might score a goal every 2 games but as a team we would score more without him. He hinders our attack. Although he came on and scored against Chelsea, had he started those two games then we wouldn't have played the way we did or won those two matches.

Whenever Benteke is in the side whether its at home or away then we look absolutely dreadful going forward. There are no options in the final third. He needs delivery and he needs service and we don't provide it to him. Look at his goal against Bordeaux, absolutely brilliant, the ball was played into him with his back to goal, one touch turn and then hits a rocket. We don't get the ball into him enough and instead look for the interchange pass, the 1-2, or even a through ball and Benteke isn't that type of forward.

So although other teams set up differently when they visit Anfield, if we go with Firmino or Sturridge in attack rather than Benteke I'm confident we will win far more than we will draw or lose.

As usual I'm expecting a backlash but lets just have a look at the stats come the end of the season of how many goals we scored with benteke in the side and then without him.

Until Sturridge is fit then I would have firmino leading the line for us every time.

If that doesn't work we can always look at the stats for how many goals we score when there weren't any headers amongst them. Or how many goals we score when someone whose name starts with the letter B wasn't on the pitch. Bad news for Bogdan I guess but thems the breaks.

Im going to say 1 up front with no proper wingers isn't helping

Im going to say 1 up front with no proper wingers isn't helping

Its crazy to play Benteke without wingers have you seen him head a ball. Our tactics and probably our players need changing at home and maybe January will see a change. But I think we have the man to change this in Jürgen he has seen enough now and will want to give the crowd something to get behind.

Taking the focus away from Benteke for a minute as he seems to be getting a bit of the flack; one thing I realised yesterday is that none of the attacking mids made runs in behind the defence. We were basically playing in front of their back line without threatening it anywhere near enough to create solid goal scoring opportunities. Obviously Benteke has to do that at times but the likes of Firmino and Lallana made those runs against Chelsea and Man City but haven't done it at home.

Taking the focus away from Benteke for a minute as he seems to be getting a bit of the flack;

Its not flack Bud, its discussion. When people get all defensive about a stance they set out months ago it can then look like 'flack'.

No backlash it's a reasonable point.  We haven't looked as fluid when he has played.  And you're right the system isn't working for him for most of the game - just phases.

Got to say that so far he just looks like a very expensive option from the bench when we it need changing up.

Good topic JD and one I'm sure we'll be coming back to throughout the course of the season.

I'm not sure there is just one problem but an accumulation of problems, some of which are discussed regularly in other topics.

We've always had problems breaking down stubborn sides who prefer to sit back and defend in numbers at Anfield, well "always" as in over the last 25 years anyway.  This seems to have been compounded in the last few years by a lack of confidence that we can beat them especially if we don't score early on, this fear also transmits itself to the crowd and vice versa, exacerbating the problem.

Lack of atmosphere doesn't help - see yesterday as an example.  Barely a peep from the crowd until we scored and audible moans and groans throughout the game adding to the fear of doing something wrong to the players, rather than encouragement for them to try something audacious.

More recently we've also had a very fragile and leaky defense adding more fear to the players, that if we don't score we'll probably lose the game.

Jürgen has already talked about this fear, he picked up on it almost before a ball was kicked after his appointment but it's been easier to overcome in the away games so far.

Watching our 3 amigos against City was a joy to behold but I doubt we'll see it happen in too many games as we'll not be given that amount of time and space by other teams and without our little magician nobody else is on their wavelength yet.  Don't forget Phil and Bob had 2 weeks at Melwood perfecting those runs, through balls and interchanging positions before that game and it showed.

It's no surprise that with a bit of organisation and a settled defense and midfield that we've got our goals against stats down to below 1 per game, which is title winning form but we've not yet had a settled attack due to a combination of injuries and a lack of fitness to play 2 games a week, every week. 

Fear, lack of confidence and belief is all that's holding us back at Anfield, so hopefully after this next run of 3 aways, 3 good performances and 3 wins should see it rocking when we face West Brom 

What was it our fabulous Manager said - we need to change from doubters to believers - and that means everybody 

Taking the focus away from Benteke for a minute as he seems to be getting a bit of the flack; one thing I realised yesterday is that none of the attacking mids made runs in behind the defence. We were basically playing in front of their back line without threatening it anywhere near enough to create solid goal scoring opportunities. Obviously Benteke has to do that at times but the likes of Firmino and Lallana made those runs against Chelsea and Man City but haven't done it at home.

You've answered your own post.

When the forward moves it creates space for the 3 behind him. The city game is a perfect example. Firmino stretched the back four and Coutinho & Lallana had a field day because of it.

I mostly sit in the lower centenary and I focus on Bentekes movement a lot and he is way too static. I wouldn't say he's slow or he's lazy because he isn't, but he strikes me as a type of forward who waits for an opportunity to come to him rather than making one for himself, and with the way we play football and with the type of other players we have in our team we need somebody who gets involved and does more for themselves - because it brings the best out of the others.

As you have touched on against better teams who want to come out and play our with our high press we can turn the ball over in the oppositions half and they don't have time to reset the defence.

Against the so called poorer teams they are sitting deep and this is where our lack of creativity especially in midfield is glaring.
BTW this is nothing new we had the same issues last season, what's missing is a top quality midfielder who can pick out that pass and split the defence in tight play.
This of course requires movement up front and injuries on that front have not helped.

Of course Benteke as a plan B is a good option but apart from Ibe we have no wide players with pace to get quality crosses in to be attacked.

Players running from deep to overload the opposition will create opportunities and this is something Hendo does really well.

So I would suggest once all our players are back from injury, maybe a couple of additions in the window will improve our creativity.

Of course it would help if the Library woke up and cheered the lads on!

That's pretty much it, teams sitting back and stifling us in their half and making it very difficult to break down a defense that sits deep. However, We've hardly had Coutinho, Firminho, Lallana and Sturridge play together. That combination I think has a lot of creativity in them, but we may have to think about a future without Sturridge and move for similar striker like him.

The key is obviously Coutinho, he makes things happen when the opposition are sitting so deep. City have Silva, Chelsea have Hazard, Arsenal have Ozil/Cazorla and Couts is our equivalent. Our issue is that those teams have other players who can step up when those players are injured or not having a good game, we don't. Firminho and Lallana and are getting there but we could do with either another top creative midfielder or a Studge type striker.

This is a top debate, folks!  If I can butt in and add my two pen'orth...
Clearly, teams who don't expect to beat us will sit back at Anfield and look to break quickly when they get the chance, and that has been very successful for some.  As has been said, it's a problem for many top teams at home.
Time and space - that's been said, and its true - if you haven't got it, you need to make it, and that means movement, hence Benteke, for all his recent scoring form, may be hindering things.
Using the wings: getting in behind / pace / one-twos - We do this very rarely, possibly because we have few wing players (who aren't full backs with half a mind on getting back quick if they need to) who have the pace and skill to get behind the full back and get a good cross or pullback in.
Sturridge answers some of these questions if and when fit; Benteke answers them ONLY when decent wing play produces accurate crosses that don't require too much anticipation from him. See his goal v Bordeaux.
So, for me, we need a decent winger who has pace and can consistently get to the byline and cross WELL. 
No panic, though, as we seem to be keeping enough goals out at the moment to get through these games.  Pity its such a painful watch at times!

Forgot to add:
Shoot early - we don't do it enough.  Ibe against Swansea went clean through in the first half, and if his poor touch with his left (that took him wide and let the defender in) had been a shot on goal instead, as it should have been, he'd likely have scored. 

The win, and the manner in which we won at Man City was the "Praise the Lord" moment for me...
When was the last time we we're 3 - 0 after half an hour and running the game? home or away..
it was only a couple of seasons ago we we're putting games against Arsenal and Tottenham at Anfield to bed by half time. and then going away and putting 5 or 6 past the likes of Stoke and Norwich with ease...
That was down to having a prolific goalscorer who whenever he got the ball his only thought was smashing it in to the net..

Exciting Attacking Skilful trophy winning football is what we're all about.. and scoring lots of great goals along the way.

Quick counter attacks have become a major part of all PL managers game plans on a weekly basis home or away..
There is no team in the PL that is "scared" of visiting us anymore, they all fancy their chances of nicking a point or even a win..
Yet they set up differently on their own ground...It seems to be an away tactic that a lot of managers use.

Just think we work the ball better and show more intent with a front 3 buzzing about, get that right and the goals will come.

Yesterday's victory was far from vintage but I can't quite decide whether the weather was the main reason for the match being all round appalling! The mere two shots on target (one being the penalty) suggests that both teams found it difficult. Remember Ibe and Can completely overpowering some crosses and passes - perhaps it was the wind? Still it's miraculous we got the three points considering that we didn't have a wealth of creativity on the field added to the fact that the conditions were far from ideal so in that respect I'm delighted with yesterday's performance. Don't know how relevant it is to our wider home form though. Conditions across all matches yesterday seemed to dictate that the football would be poor.

Think the biggest problem is that teams just aren't intimidated by playing at Anfield anymore. We have been beaten and outplayed  by so many teams over the last year or so, and from that it gives other teams confidence that they can come to Anfield and take the game to us. It's like we have become intimidated of our own stadium. A mixture of injuries, bad form and a bit of bad luck has all played its part but now as we are starting to pick up more wins, get more confidence, get nearer a full strength team and settled under the new management, hopefully now we can kick on and turn our fortunes around and turn Anfield into a fortress again and make it a place that teams are once again intimidated to go to.

Bigmick makes a very good point in that goals are sparse collectively from the team.  Just had a random look at seasons gone by during our successful period and in 80-81 Lee scored 4, Ray Kennedy 8, Souness 6, McDermott 13; 33 from midfield. 84-85 Whelan and Wark scored 25 between them.

If Lucas, Henderson, Milner, Ibe and Can could all chip in with 3 or 4 each for the season it would greatly help take the pressure off the forwards.

Another difference I notice now compared with the 80's is that we no longer pen teams in their defensive third part of the pitch.  I remember the days when players like Steve Nicol would be playing 90% of his game in the opposition's half and just eventually the team would wear them down.

There also needs to be hard work on the training pitch with sessions on quick interpassing, creating space and lots of forward movement and runs. Decision making needs to improve as well and I think Klopp has mentioned this point already. I think the forward play will improve once this bunch of players grow together, I see massive improvements in Firmino and Lallana already under Klopp.

Reddebs also makes a very good point about the atmosphere, it's dreadful at the moment (at home).  We have gone from having possibly the best atmosphere in the country to now possibly the worst. 

tension from the fan's all teams coming here now out sing us until we score which projects onto the pitch meaning the players must feed off the negativity. When we almost did it fans lined the streets to cheer and see the team bus arrive now we dont do it because its not going our way which makes us bad as fans. we should do it week in week out so the players feed of the positive vibes. Away we've done well because the local die hard fans and not day trippers go to most away games who bleed LFC. people like my dad and brother "season ticket" holders. Klopp has lifted the place slightly but we are still way off other fans for noise and athmosphere. Swansea bloody outsung us and there team was terrible, we need to believe and start supporting the team for 90min not just when we score.

Forgot to add:
Shoot early - we don't do it enough.  Ibe against Swansea went clean through in the first half, and if his poor touch with his left (that took him wide and let the defender in) had been a shot on goal instead, as it should have been, he'd likely have scored. 

Agree with this point, about shooting early, although wouldn't single out Ibe too much as it's actually good defending from Swansea player getting back! But we don't get enough shots off at goal to at least work the keeper. That isn't a go at Klopp's current tactics either as the problem was evident earlier in the season and last season as well.

All in all though we're going about it the right way. Don't concede then you only need one bit of luck/good play to win it.

Allardyce said that was his whole philosophy last week. That's not really our kind of football tbh, and certainly not what Klopp was brought here for.

I'm afraid Migs time is up. You know when the coach starts joking about his own keeper in the press, (apres Bordeaux) his days are numbered. His howlers at home to Norwich and Palace have cost us three points of the 6 we're behind. I expect there to be a move in January to replace him.

Defensively, we're still usually letting in a goal per game, and if it's going behind at home, it usually means a long afternoon/evening in store, which we rarely recover from. We run around a lot and win the ball back often, but then appear to run out of ideas.

Benteke has done fairly well so far imo. He's scored some great goals, and holds the ball up well if isolated, while waiting for support. Firmino is hot and cold, jury is still out for me.

Most teams that still have to come here will come to play a game, not sit in their own box all day and just kick the ball away in the direction they're playing. That should open  games up for us to take advantage.

Newcastle away is next and their confidence is low. Play like we did at City and it'll be a cricket score, a timely boost to the goal difference. Play like we did against Swansea and it'll be another long afternoon.