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      Are we going to become the new Leicester?

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      Hollywood Balls
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      Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      May 13, 2016 10:14:18 am
      Good article by Jonathan Wilson here; there has always been a tension between the possession-based "pass and move" philosophy and the more direct "smash and grab" style of approaching a game. In fact we saw it play out during Brendamort's time here. The latter is what Hodgson based his tactics on and seems to, once again, be on the ascendancy. Interesting to see which way Klopp will go.

      Back to the future: how football’s tactical evolution has begun to invoke the past

      For a time, the orthodoxy was that the only way, at least for clubs that saw themselves as part of the elite, was the Barçajax way. Pep Guardiola’s Barcelona were seen as the model, producing football of extraordinary brilliance, pushing the boundaries of what had previously been thought possible in terms of control of possession. Others followed, many of them directed by coaches who had, like Guardiola, been at Barcelona in the late 90s and who represented the blossoming of Johan Cruyff’s ideals into orthodoxy.

      That consensus has collapsed over the past couple of seasons. It’s not just JosĂ© Mourinho waging his Oedipal war against the club that formed him. Counterattacking is back in vogue. Tactical history is always like this: there have always been cycles of thesis and antithesis, but it’s the route the resulting syntheses are taking that makes this such a fascinating time.

      Guardiola’s felt like the next staging post in the great tradition that led from the development of passing at Queen’s Park, through “Toffee” Bob McColl to Newcastle, through Peter McWilliam to Tottenham, through Vic Buckingham to Ajax, and then through Rinus Michels and Cruyff to Barcelona and beyond. But as that team passes, it leaves behind an enormous question as to where not only that tradition, but the whole of tactical evolution goes next. It would be misleading to hail the end of history, for there is always something new, but that Barça side did seem to take one particular strand of evolution, arguably the principle strand, to a point beyond which it is impossible to go.

      Football as an aeroplane

      The first international between Scotland and England played at Partick in 1872 is also the first for which we can be relatively certain of the formations played. “The formation of a team as a rule,” the first secretary of the Football Association Charles W Alcock noted, “was to provide for seven forwards, and only four players to constitute the three lines of defence. The last line was, of course, the goal-keeper, and in front of him was only one full-back, who had again before him but two forwards, to check the rushes of the opposing forwards.”

      Against England’s 1-2-7, Scotland lined up in a radical 2-2-6, passed the ball and despite being on average a stone a man lighter than the English, had the better of a 0-0 draw. As the decade went on, Cambridge University, Nottingham Forest and Wrexham were all experimenting with a 2-3-5, and that gradual withdrawal of forwards has continued ever since. By the 1960s, the great Dynamo Kyiv coach Viktor Maslov was describing football as being like an aeroplane, its front end become ever more streamlined. Five forwards became four became three became two, became one and then, with the evolution of the false nine, became none.

      The process isn’t neat, and there are many exceptions (the slender and asthmatic GO Smith, for instance, seems to have played as a proto-false nine for Corinthians in the 1890s) and there are numerous tributaries that branch off and then rejoin the central channel but that diminution in the number of forwards has been a clear trend. But now we’ve got to zero, when the centre-forward has been, for some sides, refined out of existence, what comes next?

      A theory’s end-point

      The Ukrainian painter Kasimir Malevich created a huge stir in 1915 when he painted Black Square, a black square on a white background, and hung it in the corner of the room exhibiting his work in the position an icon would usually take in a Ukrainian home. This was the birth of Suprematism. Later that year he painted Red Square, a red square on a white background and then, three years later, came White on White, a white square on a white background. This was the end point for the movement: in his quest for the absolute, there was nowhere else to go while still committing at least some image to canvas.

      Partly for political reasons – Lenin had admired Malevich but Stalin, who succeeded Lenin on his death in 1923, was suspicious of abstraction and encouraged Soviet Realism – and partly because he had gone down the Suprematist road as far as he could, Malevich spent the 1920s returning to the more figurative work of his early career. But although his late art largely depicts workers – Young Girls in the Fields, Peasants, Mower – it is far from naturalistic. It’s a strange Modernist version of Soviet Realism. Malevich, in other words, having pursued abstraction as far as was possible, continued his continual process of reinvention by reinterpreting old traditions, but filtered through the knowledge of what came after.

      It feels as though this is the point football has now reached; that, for that one line of evolution, this is the end. And so, with nowhere else to go, football had begun to reinvoke elements of its past.

      Even that revisiting is itself not new. Greece in Euro 2004, perhaps provides the most obvious example. Otto Rehhagel had his side man-marking in a way that had largely gone out of fashion two decades earlier. Opponents, it turned out, had little expertise in dealing with it. Forwards who had learned where to probe and pry against zonal systems, who knew where the weaknesses were, who knew where space was to be discovered, found themselves stifled. Greece’s success in that tournament didn’t lead to the widespread readoption of man-marking and so it was tempting to regard that as a cul-de-sac. It may be, though, that it was part of a wider trend of recycling.

      The possession dialectic

      Evolution does not run in straight lines; it is not a simple progression, and nor is there only one channel. The other major development that led from that 1872 international was passing. Football until then had been a game largely about head-down charging, but the Scots realised that by kicking the ball to each other they could negate the weight advantage England enjoyed.

      Early football very much focused on having the ball and trying to make use of it but, within 50 years, counterattacking had emerged, as practiced by Herbert Chapman, first at Northampton and then, more meaningfully, at Huddersfield and Arsenal. By the mid-60s positions were entrenched. There was a camp that believed possession should be cherished and a camp preferred to counterattack (itself split in two between, on the one hand, those who saw rapid transitions as necessary to break down increasingly sophisticated defences and were prepared to tolerate a riskier style that might lose the ball but was also more likely to catch an opponent off-guard and, on the other, those who believed games were settled by mistakes and that mistakes were more likely the more you have the ball. Those camps themselves are split between those that sit deep and those that press high, with further subdivisions into those that employ a libero and those that prefer a flat four).

      The past half-century has seen a constant dialectic between the philosophies prioritising possession and speed in transition. When Guardiola was at Barcelona, the positions became increasingly distinct: radical possession met radical non-possession most obviously in the 2010 Champions League semi-final when Barcelona, with 81% of the ball in the second leg, couldn’t manage a large enough winning margin against Mourinho’s 10-man Internazionale to overturn a 3-1 first-leg deficit.

      Barcelona’s semi-final exit to Jupp Heynckes’s Bayern in 2013, or Real Madrid’s victory over Guardiola’s Bayern in the semi-final in 2014 felt like readjustments: this was counterattacking fighting back. After the extremes of the Guardiola-Mourinho battle at its height and the dominance at elite level of the Barçajax school there has been a reversion and a consensus has emerged.

      The disparate present

      The high-pressing of JĂŒrgen Klopp’s Borussia Dortmund led Guardiola to pursue, in certain games, a strategy of direct forward passes, looking to bypass the press. Partly because of circumstance, partly because of the presence of Robert Lewandowski in his squad and partly because Bayern’s squad have not been raised in quite the same rat-a-tat passing style the graduates of La Masia instinctively adopt, Guardiola has become less fundamentalist.

      Barcelona similarly have stepped back from Guardiola’s purism. Buying Neymar and Luis Suárez means that, with Lionel Messi, they now have three players who can beat a defender, while the integration of Ivan Rakitic as Xavi gives them a more vertical passing style through midfield. It’s still of the Barçajax school, but this Barça are more direct and there is a clear split between the back seven and the front three; the sense of universality that once took them as close as any side has been to Carlos Albert Parreira’s vision and look of a 4-6-0 with rotating midfielders has diminished.

      At the same time, there are an increasing number of coaches who stand, if not in direct opposition to the Barçajax tradition as Mourinho does, then certainly outside it. Most notably successful is Diego Simeone at AtlĂ©tico Madrid. The ethos is drawn from the Argentinian anti-fĂștbol tradition. When Simeone was 14 he was coached by Victorio Spinetto, who effectively invented anti-fĂștbol in his time as VĂ©lez Sarsfield coach between 1942 and 1956; his ideas were taken on by one of his players, Osvaldo ZubeldĂ­a, who led the notorious Estudiantes of the late-60s. They pressed, played the offside trap before it was fashionable in Argentina and spoiled, scrapped and got away with whatever they could. In that side was Carlos Bilardo, who coached Argentina at the World Cup in 1986 and 1990 and laid the foundations for the Estudiantes side Simeone would in 2006 take to their first league title in 23 years.

      Tactically, though, Simeone’s football is quite different from that of ZubeldĂ­a. Although AtlĂ©tico have pressed more this season than in the past, notably catching Bayern off-guard in the first leg of the semi-final, their default against top sides is to sit deep and look to absorb pressure before working the ball forward quickly.

      Klopp’s football, although it shares certain Bielsista tenets with Guardiola’s, is essentially a reimagining of the traditional English aggressive hounding of the opposition in possession – the slight oddity being that the English sides who really prospered in European competition – Liverpool and Nottingham Forest – did so by tempering that approach and playing a more possession-based game.

      Even Leicester’s success, for all the uniqueness of the achievement, can be seen as a reinterpretation of an old-fashioned way of playing. Shinji Okazaki has played too deep for this to be quite a duplicate of the 4-4-2s that dominated English football in the mid-80s, but countless sides of 30 years ago played with a narrow back four, fairly cautious full-backs, two hard-working central midfielders, one technically gifted winger and one shuttler to balance with a second striker linking to a rapid centre-forward.

      Watford too, in the early part of the season at least, benefited by having two central strikers, albeit one of them, Troy Deeney, playing very deep. A generation of central defenders has grown up playing against lone strikers, so one goes to challenge and the other covers. With two strikers, there is no covering player and that changes the whole nature of defending. Would Jamie Vardy have been quite so devastating this season had the second central defender been able to drop off 10 yards rather than having always at least half an eye on Okazaki?

      Like Rehhagel’s Greece, Leicester set opponents questions to which they’d forgotten the answers, a reminder that tactical evolution is neither linear nor cyclical, but a complex combination of the two. Some old ideas are not redundant but can be repurposed and repackaged for the modern game. For now, as the impact of one of the great pioneering teams fades, the past is the avant garde.

      https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/may/12/future-football-tactics-evolution-invoke-the-past
      « Last Edit: May 13, 2016 02:53:53 pm by RedPuppy, Reason: Wrong format »
      billythered
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #1: May 13, 2016 10:26:51 am
      To answer your op question, in a word no,

      Under JĂŒrgen we are becoming the new Liverpool, maybe in the future managers will be following his philosophy, as a club Liverpool are not new to starting new trends, one of the reasons we are the most successful club in British football!


      YNWA
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #2: May 13, 2016 10:34:16 am
      People may copy him depending on how successful we are but it isn't a new philosophy - as the article points out.

      We may not need the tactical innovations of a Rafa or Mourinho - it might be enough to execute what we are doing at a high enough level - but it's unlikely to be a possession-based pass-and-move system that many think back to.

      Klopp himself has previously implied that playing like that is more Arsenal than Dortmund.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #3: May 13, 2016 11:07:17 am
      Quote
      Watford too, in the early part of the season at least, benefited by having two central strikers, albeit one of them, Troy Deeney, playing very deep. A generation of central defenders has grown up playing against lone strikers, so one goes to challenge and the other covers. With two strikers, there is no covering player and that changes the whole nature of defending. Would Jamie Vardy have been quite so devastating this season had the second central defender been able to drop off 10 yards rather than having always at least half an eye on Okazaki?

      Certainly something to ponder^^

      Billy1
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #4: May 13, 2016 11:10:42 am
      I think Leicester will be a one season wonder so we do not want to become the new Leicester.We need to be the Liverpool of old and win the EPL and European cups on a consistent basis.
      billythered
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #5: May 13, 2016 11:10:42 am
      People may copy him depending on how successful we are but it isn't a new philosophy - as the article points out.

      We may not need the tactical innovations of a Rafa or Mourinho - it might be enough to execute what we are doing at a high enough level - but it's unlikely to be a possession-based pass-and-move system that many think back to.

      Klopp himself has previously implied that playing like that is more Arsenal than Dortmund.

      Fairy muff fella, as in regards to pass and move or as many still refer "the Liverpool way" that style of football was played way back in the 50's, so it's nothing new, I'm sure Billy1 is best placed educate those of the sky TV era.

      YNWA
      Gill95
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #6: May 13, 2016 12:05:03 pm
      Firstly, the title sucks! New Leicester? :lmao:

      What the f**k have Leicester done in the past that we would become like them?

      They won the title - Yes.
      Would they win it again - No.


      Kindly check what you write before comparing  Liverpool with the mighty "Leicester City".
      srslfc
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #7: May 13, 2016 12:12:27 pm
      Its a decent debate to have and something I have mentioned before on here about maybe to win in this league we may have to play more a more direct style of football.

      Not Leicester per say but I do think JĂŒrgen already has a more direct attacking style about his football than you get from other European managers.

      New Leicester? 

      Not sure about that.

      A more direct Liverpool?

      I wouldn't be totally against that and even if you think back to us at our best under Brendan we played very direct at times but not in the normal 'long ball' game that you normally associate with the phrase 'direct football'.
      nikos
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #8: May 13, 2016 12:27:01 pm
      Is Ferrari going to become the new Lada?

      « Last Edit: May 14, 2016 07:16:21 am by nikos »
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #9: May 13, 2016 12:32:13 pm
      The latter is what Hodgson based his tactics on and seems to, once again, be on the ascendancy. 

      Lost me once you made this point!  :lmao:

      Beerbelly
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #10: May 13, 2016 01:04:48 pm
      Its a decent debate to have and something I have mentioned before on here about maybe to win in this league we may have to play more a more direct style of football.

      Not Leicester per say but I do think JĂŒrgen already has a more direct attacking style about his football than you get from other European managers.

      New Leicester? 

      Not sure about that.

      A more direct Liverpool?

      I wouldn't be totally against that and even if you think back to us at our best under Brendan we played very direct at times but not in the normal 'long ball' game that you normally associate with the phrase 'direct football'.

      What about going back to 4-4-2, which I think the article was slightly angling to as well?

      Playing two forwards who take up two CB. The author made a good point about a generation (pretty much) of CB marking a solo striker, if you like. It's worthy of consideration, not that I think Klopp will move away from a 4-2-3-1 but for us plebs on here it's a decent discussion point.

      The idea of three attacking midfielders supporting a lone striker these days means teams are well versed into defending the AM using their own midfield sitters and fullbacks to counter the attacking threat they pose.

      Like the author said, would Vardy have scored as many goals if he was a lone striker, possibly not and going back to our own Michael Owen, would he have banged in as many without playing Heskey alongside him.

      The only thing is, of course if this were to become the norm again, like the 4-4-2 being favoured over the 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 again, teams would act to counter it - so the cycle begins again. Leicester caught the league cold and if they were to begin a shift in this trend, they can certainly give themselves a pat on the back for the fact they used it to win the league when trend was something else.

      Ribapuru
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #11: May 13, 2016 01:16:06 pm
      if you turn left 3 times it is the same as right, in direction not magnitude... so is left going to be the new right?
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #12: May 13, 2016 02:06:22 pm
      What about going back to 4-4-2, which I think the article was slightly angling to as well?

      Surely it's Four Four Fackin' Two!!

      Has to be said in a comedic mockney accent too  :laugh:

      clint_call01
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #13: May 13, 2016 02:46:57 pm
      We're Liverpool not Reading, Watford, Dag and Ham, Brighton, etc WE ARE LIVERPOOL. Klopp will continue to introduce his mentality but we play with our own identity.
      RedPuppy
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #14: May 13, 2016 03:05:23 pm
      I have not read the article as it is far too long, but what I have done is format it correctly so people don't have to scroll down to read it, boy it's a big read, not for me.

      As for the title, Are we going to become the new Leicester?

      No, we will become, if anything, the old Dortmund.

      As for Leicester, the proof will be next year, If they have a weakness it will be found, experts will be looking at it and working out how to deal with it. The difference between them and the Barca's etal, is that Barca change the team yearly so you never get a grip on them. Rodgers did this i hear you say, but he/TTC bought poorly.

      I wonder how many Klopp will bring in, he's praised this team, and I suspect he likes what he has, mostly anyway, so I'm not expecting a big influx, but some fine tweaking and a lot of practice.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #15: May 13, 2016 03:53:13 pm
      Can't really see us playing in blue, being sponsored by walkers crisps or Lineker whacking one out over us on MOTD, so no.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #16: May 13, 2016 04:01:22 pm
      Jonathan Wilson. He's the best.
      Madscouser
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #17: May 13, 2016 04:08:49 pm
      Forget Tiki Taka or Gengenpressing

      Its all about 'Getdemscouserspressing' now
      Aggerdoo
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #18: May 13, 2016 05:13:56 pm
      I think Leicester showed that you can win the title playing with 2 strikers. We almost won the title with two strikers (Suarez and Sturridge) together. Why not try Sturridge and Origi next season? But two forwards is not really Klopp's style.

      Still astonished they won with some of the lowest possession stats in the league. Counter attack is the new tiki taka
      s@int
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #19: May 13, 2016 05:43:13 pm
      I have never been completely convinced by the possession argument. Possession without end product gets you nothing and because you tend to take less risks to maintain that possession it can lead to sterile boring football.

      Possession football even at it's best depends on having great creative players and top strikers to convert the chances... mainly because more often than not you are allowing the opposition time to set up their defence, unlike a team that breaks quickly.   

      A team that can however get the balance right between possession football and quick counter attacks is a real threat and it's this balance I think most teams look for.

      Leicester imo have been quite happy to have less possession as long as they could restrict the opposition from creating too many chances while still giving themselves the opportunity to score from quick breaks or from opponents mistakes as they push forward.

      Every game played as a cup game, similar in fashion to the way the mancs played in the late 70's after they returned to the top flight, with the big difference being Leicester actually won the league while the mancs never quite made it.     
      MIRO
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #20: May 13, 2016 06:44:10 pm
      To answer your op question, in a word no,

      Under JĂŒrgen we are becoming the new Liverpool, maybe in the future managers will be following his philosophy, as a club Liverpool are not new to starting new trends, one of the reasons we are the most successful club in British football!


      YNWA

      We're Liverpool not Reading, Watford, Dag and Ham, Brighton, etc WE ARE LIVERPOOL. Klopp will continue to introduce his mentality but we play with our own identity.

      Lost me once you made this point!  :lmao:



      Firstly, the title sucks! New Leicester? :lmao:

      What the f**k have Leicester done in the past that we would become like them?

      They won the title - Yes.
      Would they win it again - No.


      Kindly check what you write before comparing  Liverpool with the mighty "Leicester City".

      Thanks lads for humouring him.
      Magillionare
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #21: May 13, 2016 07:04:43 pm
      Select a style. Get your players to believe in it. Get your players playing exactly to that style, every last one of them. Add talent. Add passion. Win.

      There is no best style, never has been. It simply depends on how much you can get the team you have to buy into any given philosophy.
      srslfc
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #22: May 13, 2016 07:14:00 pm

      Or we can debate a decent topic like adults maybe?

      The title may be a bit off but the discussion is a valid enough one.

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