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      Are we going to become the new Leicester?

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      Hollywood Balls
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      Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      May 13, 2016 10:14:18 am
      Good article by Jonathan Wilson here; there has always been a tension between the possession-based "pass and move" philosophy and the more direct "smash and grab" style of approaching a game. In fact we saw it play out during Brendamort's time here. The latter is what Hodgson based his tactics on and seems to, once again, be on the ascendancy. Interesting to see which way Klopp will go.

      Back to the future: how football’s tactical evolution has begun to invoke the past

      For a time, the orthodoxy was that the only way, at least for clubs that saw themselves as part of the elite, was the Barçajax way. Pep Guardiola’s Barcelona were seen as the model, producing football of extraordinary brilliance, pushing the boundaries of what had previously been thought possible in terms of control of possession. Others followed, many of them directed by coaches who had, like Guardiola, been at Barcelona in the late 90s and who represented the blossoming of Johan Cruyff’s ideals into orthodoxy.

      That consensus has collapsed over the past couple of seasons. It’s not just JosĂ© Mourinho waging his Oedipal war against the club that formed him. Counterattacking is back in vogue. Tactical history is always like this: there have always been cycles of thesis and antithesis, but it’s the route the resulting syntheses are taking that makes this such a fascinating time.

      Guardiola’s felt like the next staging post in the great tradition that led from the development of passing at Queen’s Park, through “Toffee” Bob McColl to Newcastle, through Peter McWilliam to Tottenham, through Vic Buckingham to Ajax, and then through Rinus Michels and Cruyff to Barcelona and beyond. But as that team passes, it leaves behind an enormous question as to where not only that tradition, but the whole of tactical evolution goes next. It would be misleading to hail the end of history, for there is always something new, but that Barça side did seem to take one particular strand of evolution, arguably the principle strand, to a point beyond which it is impossible to go.

      Football as an aeroplane

      The first international between Scotland and England played at Partick in 1872 is also the first for which we can be relatively certain of the formations played. “The formation of a team as a rule,” the first secretary of the Football Association Charles W Alcock noted, “was to provide for seven forwards, and only four players to constitute the three lines of defence. The last line was, of course, the goal-keeper, and in front of him was only one full-back, who had again before him but two forwards, to check the rushes of the opposing forwards.”

      Against England’s 1-2-7, Scotland lined up in a radical 2-2-6, passed the ball and despite being on average a stone a man lighter than the English, had the better of a 0-0 draw. As the decade went on, Cambridge University, Nottingham Forest and Wrexham were all experimenting with a 2-3-5, and that gradual withdrawal of forwards has continued ever since. By the 1960s, the great Dynamo Kyiv coach Viktor Maslov was describing football as being like an aeroplane, its front end become ever more streamlined. Five forwards became four became three became two, became one and then, with the evolution of the false nine, became none.

      The process isn’t neat, and there are many exceptions (the slender and asthmatic GO Smith, for instance, seems to have played as a proto-false nine for Corinthians in the 1890s) and there are numerous tributaries that branch off and then rejoin the central channel but that diminution in the number of forwards has been a clear trend. But now we’ve got to zero, when the centre-forward has been, for some sides, refined out of existence, what comes next?

      A theory’s end-point

      The Ukrainian painter Kasimir Malevich created a huge stir in 1915 when he painted Black Square, a black square on a white background, and hung it in the corner of the room exhibiting his work in the position an icon would usually take in a Ukrainian home. This was the birth of Suprematism. Later that year he painted Red Square, a red square on a white background and then, three years later, came White on White, a white square on a white background. This was the end point for the movement: in his quest for the absolute, there was nowhere else to go while still committing at least some image to canvas.

      Partly for political reasons – Lenin had admired Malevich but Stalin, who succeeded Lenin on his death in 1923, was suspicious of abstraction and encouraged Soviet Realism – and partly because he had gone down the Suprematist road as far as he could, Malevich spent the 1920s returning to the more figurative work of his early career. But although his late art largely depicts workers – Young Girls in the Fields, Peasants, Mower – it is far from naturalistic. It’s a strange Modernist version of Soviet Realism. Malevich, in other words, having pursued abstraction as far as was possible, continued his continual process of reinvention by reinterpreting old traditions, but filtered through the knowledge of what came after.

      It feels as though this is the point football has now reached; that, for that one line of evolution, this is the end. And so, with nowhere else to go, football had begun to reinvoke elements of its past.

      Even that revisiting is itself not new. Greece in Euro 2004, perhaps provides the most obvious example. Otto Rehhagel had his side man-marking in a way that had largely gone out of fashion two decades earlier. Opponents, it turned out, had little expertise in dealing with it. Forwards who had learned where to probe and pry against zonal systems, who knew where the weaknesses were, who knew where space was to be discovered, found themselves stifled. Greece’s success in that tournament didn’t lead to the widespread readoption of man-marking and so it was tempting to regard that as a cul-de-sac. It may be, though, that it was part of a wider trend of recycling.

      The possession dialectic

      Evolution does not run in straight lines; it is not a simple progression, and nor is there only one channel. The other major development that led from that 1872 international was passing. Football until then had been a game largely about head-down charging, but the Scots realised that by kicking the ball to each other they could negate the weight advantage England enjoyed.

      Early football very much focused on having the ball and trying to make use of it but, within 50 years, counterattacking had emerged, as practiced by Herbert Chapman, first at Northampton and then, more meaningfully, at Huddersfield and Arsenal. By the mid-60s positions were entrenched. There was a camp that believed possession should be cherished and a camp preferred to counterattack (itself split in two between, on the one hand, those who saw rapid transitions as necessary to break down increasingly sophisticated defences and were prepared to tolerate a riskier style that might lose the ball but was also more likely to catch an opponent off-guard and, on the other, those who believed games were settled by mistakes and that mistakes were more likely the more you have the ball. Those camps themselves are split between those that sit deep and those that press high, with further subdivisions into those that employ a libero and those that prefer a flat four).

      The past half-century has seen a constant dialectic between the philosophies prioritising possession and speed in transition. When Guardiola was at Barcelona, the positions became increasingly distinct: radical possession met radical non-possession most obviously in the 2010 Champions League semi-final when Barcelona, with 81% of the ball in the second leg, couldn’t manage a large enough winning margin against Mourinho’s 10-man Internazionale to overturn a 3-1 first-leg deficit.

      Barcelona’s semi-final exit to Jupp Heynckes’s Bayern in 2013, or Real Madrid’s victory over Guardiola’s Bayern in the semi-final in 2014 felt like readjustments: this was counterattacking fighting back. After the extremes of the Guardiola-Mourinho battle at its height and the dominance at elite level of the Barçajax school there has been a reversion and a consensus has emerged.

      The disparate present

      The high-pressing of JĂŒrgen Klopp’s Borussia Dortmund led Guardiola to pursue, in certain games, a strategy of direct forward passes, looking to bypass the press. Partly because of circumstance, partly because of the presence of Robert Lewandowski in his squad and partly because Bayern’s squad have not been raised in quite the same rat-a-tat passing style the graduates of La Masia instinctively adopt, Guardiola has become less fundamentalist.

      Barcelona similarly have stepped back from Guardiola’s purism. Buying Neymar and Luis Suárez means that, with Lionel Messi, they now have three players who can beat a defender, while the integration of Ivan Rakitic as Xavi gives them a more vertical passing style through midfield. It’s still of the Barçajax school, but this Barça are more direct and there is a clear split between the back seven and the front three; the sense of universality that once took them as close as any side has been to Carlos Albert Parreira’s vision and look of a 4-6-0 with rotating midfielders has diminished.

      At the same time, there are an increasing number of coaches who stand, if not in direct opposition to the Barçajax tradition as Mourinho does, then certainly outside it. Most notably successful is Diego Simeone at AtlĂ©tico Madrid. The ethos is drawn from the Argentinian anti-fĂștbol tradition. When Simeone was 14 he was coached by Victorio Spinetto, who effectively invented anti-fĂștbol in his time as VĂ©lez Sarsfield coach between 1942 and 1956; his ideas were taken on by one of his players, Osvaldo ZubeldĂ­a, who led the notorious Estudiantes of the late-60s. They pressed, played the offside trap before it was fashionable in Argentina and spoiled, scrapped and got away with whatever they could. In that side was Carlos Bilardo, who coached Argentina at the World Cup in 1986 and 1990 and laid the foundations for the Estudiantes side Simeone would in 2006 take to their first league title in 23 years.

      Tactically, though, Simeone’s football is quite different from that of ZubeldĂ­a. Although AtlĂ©tico have pressed more this season than in the past, notably catching Bayern off-guard in the first leg of the semi-final, their default against top sides is to sit deep and look to absorb pressure before working the ball forward quickly.

      Klopp’s football, although it shares certain Bielsista tenets with Guardiola’s, is essentially a reimagining of the traditional English aggressive hounding of the opposition in possession – the slight oddity being that the English sides who really prospered in European competition – Liverpool and Nottingham Forest – did so by tempering that approach and playing a more possession-based game.

      Even Leicester’s success, for all the uniqueness of the achievement, can be seen as a reinterpretation of an old-fashioned way of playing. Shinji Okazaki has played too deep for this to be quite a duplicate of the 4-4-2s that dominated English football in the mid-80s, but countless sides of 30 years ago played with a narrow back four, fairly cautious full-backs, two hard-working central midfielders, one technically gifted winger and one shuttler to balance with a second striker linking to a rapid centre-forward.

      Watford too, in the early part of the season at least, benefited by having two central strikers, albeit one of them, Troy Deeney, playing very deep. A generation of central defenders has grown up playing against lone strikers, so one goes to challenge and the other covers. With two strikers, there is no covering player and that changes the whole nature of defending. Would Jamie Vardy have been quite so devastating this season had the second central defender been able to drop off 10 yards rather than having always at least half an eye on Okazaki?

      Like Rehhagel’s Greece, Leicester set opponents questions to which they’d forgotten the answers, a reminder that tactical evolution is neither linear nor cyclical, but a complex combination of the two. Some old ideas are not redundant but can be repurposed and repackaged for the modern game. For now, as the impact of one of the great pioneering teams fades, the past is the avant garde.

      https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/may/12/future-football-tactics-evolution-invoke-the-past
      « Last Edit: May 13, 2016 02:53:53 pm by RedPuppy, Reason: Wrong format »
      billythered
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #1: May 13, 2016 10:26:51 am
      To answer your op question, in a word no,

      Under JĂŒrgen we are becoming the new Liverpool, maybe in the future managers will be following his philosophy, as a club Liverpool are not new to starting new trends, one of the reasons we are the most successful club in British football!


      YNWA
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #2: May 13, 2016 10:34:16 am
      People may copy him depending on how successful we are but it isn't a new philosophy - as the article points out.

      We may not need the tactical innovations of a Rafa or Mourinho - it might be enough to execute what we are doing at a high enough level - but it's unlikely to be a possession-based pass-and-move system that many think back to.

      Klopp himself has previously implied that playing like that is more Arsenal than Dortmund.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #3: May 13, 2016 11:07:17 am
      Quote
      Watford too, in the early part of the season at least, benefited by having two central strikers, albeit one of them, Troy Deeney, playing very deep. A generation of central defenders has grown up playing against lone strikers, so one goes to challenge and the other covers. With two strikers, there is no covering player and that changes the whole nature of defending. Would Jamie Vardy have been quite so devastating this season had the second central defender been able to drop off 10 yards rather than having always at least half an eye on Okazaki?

      Certainly something to ponder^^

      Billy1
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #4: May 13, 2016 11:10:42 am
      I think Leicester will be a one season wonder so we do not want to become the new Leicester.We need to be the Liverpool of old and win the EPL and European cups on a consistent basis.
      billythered
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #5: May 13, 2016 11:10:42 am
      People may copy him depending on how successful we are but it isn't a new philosophy - as the article points out.

      We may not need the tactical innovations of a Rafa or Mourinho - it might be enough to execute what we are doing at a high enough level - but it's unlikely to be a possession-based pass-and-move system that many think back to.

      Klopp himself has previously implied that playing like that is more Arsenal than Dortmund.

      Fairy muff fella, as in regards to pass and move or as many still refer "the Liverpool way" that style of football was played way back in the 50's, so it's nothing new, I'm sure Billy1 is best placed educate those of the sky TV era.

      YNWA
      Gill95
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #6: May 13, 2016 12:05:03 pm
      Firstly, the title sucks! New Leicester? :lmao:

      What the f**k have Leicester done in the past that we would become like them?

      They won the title - Yes.
      Would they win it again - No.


      Kindly check what you write before comparing  Liverpool with the mighty "Leicester City".
      srslfc
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #7: May 13, 2016 12:12:27 pm
      Its a decent debate to have and something I have mentioned before on here about maybe to win in this league we may have to play more a more direct style of football.

      Not Leicester per say but I do think JĂŒrgen already has a more direct attacking style about his football than you get from other European managers.

      New Leicester? 

      Not sure about that.

      A more direct Liverpool?

      I wouldn't be totally against that and even if you think back to us at our best under Brendan we played very direct at times but not in the normal 'long ball' game that you normally associate with the phrase 'direct football'.
      nikos
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #8: May 13, 2016 12:27:01 pm
      Is Ferrari going to become the new Lada?

      « Last Edit: May 14, 2016 07:16:21 am by nikos »
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #9: May 13, 2016 12:32:13 pm
      The latter is what Hodgson based his tactics on and seems to, once again, be on the ascendancy. 

      Lost me once you made this point!  :lmao:

      Beerbelly
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #10: May 13, 2016 01:04:48 pm
      Its a decent debate to have and something I have mentioned before on here about maybe to win in this league we may have to play more a more direct style of football.

      Not Leicester per say but I do think JĂŒrgen already has a more direct attacking style about his football than you get from other European managers.

      New Leicester? 

      Not sure about that.

      A more direct Liverpool?

      I wouldn't be totally against that and even if you think back to us at our best under Brendan we played very direct at times but not in the normal 'long ball' game that you normally associate with the phrase 'direct football'.

      What about going back to 4-4-2, which I think the article was slightly angling to as well?

      Playing two forwards who take up two CB. The author made a good point about a generation (pretty much) of CB marking a solo striker, if you like. It's worthy of consideration, not that I think Klopp will move away from a 4-2-3-1 but for us plebs on here it's a decent discussion point.

      The idea of three attacking midfielders supporting a lone striker these days means teams are well versed into defending the AM using their own midfield sitters and fullbacks to counter the attacking threat they pose.

      Like the author said, would Vardy have scored as many goals if he was a lone striker, possibly not and going back to our own Michael Owen, would he have banged in as many without playing Heskey alongside him.

      The only thing is, of course if this were to become the norm again, like the 4-4-2 being favoured over the 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 again, teams would act to counter it - so the cycle begins again. Leicester caught the league cold and if they were to begin a shift in this trend, they can certainly give themselves a pat on the back for the fact they used it to win the league when trend was something else.

      Ribapuru
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #11: May 13, 2016 01:16:06 pm
      if you turn left 3 times it is the same as right, in direction not magnitude... so is left going to be the new right?
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #12: May 13, 2016 02:06:22 pm
      What about going back to 4-4-2, which I think the article was slightly angling to as well?

      Surely it's Four Four Fackin' Two!!

      Has to be said in a comedic mockney accent too  :laugh:

      clint_call01
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #13: May 13, 2016 02:46:57 pm
      We're Liverpool not Reading, Watford, Dag and Ham, Brighton, etc WE ARE LIVERPOOL. Klopp will continue to introduce his mentality but we play with our own identity.
      RedPuppy
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #14: May 13, 2016 03:05:23 pm
      I have not read the article as it is far too long, but what I have done is format it correctly so people don't have to scroll down to read it, boy it's a big read, not for me.

      As for the title, Are we going to become the new Leicester?

      No, we will become, if anything, the old Dortmund.

      As for Leicester, the proof will be next year, If they have a weakness it will be found, experts will be looking at it and working out how to deal with it. The difference between them and the Barca's etal, is that Barca change the team yearly so you never get a grip on them. Rodgers did this i hear you say, but he/TTC bought poorly.

      I wonder how many Klopp will bring in, he's praised this team, and I suspect he likes what he has, mostly anyway, so I'm not expecting a big influx, but some fine tweaking and a lot of practice.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #15: May 13, 2016 03:53:13 pm
      Can't really see us playing in blue, being sponsored by walkers crisps or Lineker whacking one out over us on MOTD, so no.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #16: May 13, 2016 04:01:22 pm
      Jonathan Wilson. He's the best.
      Madscouser
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #17: May 13, 2016 04:08:49 pm
      Forget Tiki Taka or Gengenpressing

      Its all about 'Getdemscouserspressing' now
      Aggerdoo
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #18: May 13, 2016 05:13:56 pm
      I think Leicester showed that you can win the title playing with 2 strikers. We almost won the title with two strikers (Suarez and Sturridge) together. Why not try Sturridge and Origi next season? But two forwards is not really Klopp's style.

      Still astonished they won with some of the lowest possession stats in the league. Counter attack is the new tiki taka
      s@int
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #19: May 13, 2016 05:43:13 pm
      I have never been completely convinced by the possession argument. Possession without end product gets you nothing and because you tend to take less risks to maintain that possession it can lead to sterile boring football.

      Possession football even at it's best depends on having great creative players and top strikers to convert the chances... mainly because more often than not you are allowing the opposition time to set up their defence, unlike a team that breaks quickly.   

      A team that can however get the balance right between possession football and quick counter attacks is a real threat and it's this balance I think most teams look for.

      Leicester imo have been quite happy to have less possession as long as they could restrict the opposition from creating too many chances while still giving themselves the opportunity to score from quick breaks or from opponents mistakes as they push forward.

      Every game played as a cup game, similar in fashion to the way the mancs played in the late 70's after they returned to the top flight, with the big difference being Leicester actually won the league while the mancs never quite made it.     
      MIRO
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #20: May 13, 2016 06:44:10 pm
      To answer your op question, in a word no,

      Under JĂŒrgen we are becoming the new Liverpool, maybe in the future managers will be following his philosophy, as a club Liverpool are not new to starting new trends, one of the reasons we are the most successful club in British football!


      YNWA

      We're Liverpool not Reading, Watford, Dag and Ham, Brighton, etc WE ARE LIVERPOOL. Klopp will continue to introduce his mentality but we play with our own identity.

      Lost me once you made this point!  :lmao:



      Firstly, the title sucks! New Leicester? :lmao:

      What the f**k have Leicester done in the past that we would become like them?

      They won the title - Yes.
      Would they win it again - No.


      Kindly check what you write before comparing  Liverpool with the mighty "Leicester City".

      Thanks lads for humouring him.
      Magillionare
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #21: May 13, 2016 07:04:43 pm
      Select a style. Get your players to believe in it. Get your players playing exactly to that style, every last one of them. Add talent. Add passion. Win.

      There is no best style, never has been. It simply depends on how much you can get the team you have to buy into any given philosophy.
      srslfc
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #22: May 13, 2016 07:14:00 pm

      Or we can debate a decent topic like adults maybe?

      The title may be a bit off but the discussion is a valid enough one.
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #23: May 13, 2016 07:16:15 pm
      Let's give up our history to be a one season wonder
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #24: May 13, 2016 08:41:15 pm
      Or we can debate a decent topic like adults maybe?

      Were's the fun in that meany moo!! ;)

      Let's give up our history to be a one season wonder

      Spot F***ing on!

      MIRO
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #25: May 13, 2016 10:01:02 pm
      Were's the fun in that meany moo!! ;)

      Spot f**king on!




       ;D

      fishpie
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #26: May 13, 2016 10:56:13 pm
      Leicester were totally lucky with key players not getting injured, they played great football of course and Ranieri instilled belief in them, I think the lack of injuries and other teams just being a bit crap was the key to how it happened.

       As for the premise or should I say title of the thread, I cringed when I saw it and just thought oh no, you haven't have you, yes you have.

      Become the new Leicester, what the hell?
      Kharhaz
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #27: May 14, 2016 01:57:30 am
      The new Leicester? I can only hope, to get one premiership win on the board would be nice!

      However, no, we will become the awakened giant. We wont require daft amounts of money, we just need the man in charge we have now.

      We will not only win domestic trophies, we will dominate abroad, something Leicester have no chance of doing.
      nikos
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #28: May 14, 2016 07:29:07 am
      Let's give up our history to be a one season wonder

      And some millions of our fans around the world...

      Then we can exchange Klopp for Ranieri !!!
      « Last Edit: May 14, 2016 08:57:33 am by nikos »
      GeorgeRed
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #29: May 14, 2016 09:35:53 am
      How about we'll become the old Liverpool.
      MIRO
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #30: May 14, 2016 10:33:02 am
      How about we'll become the old Liverpool.

      Dear Mr Balls .

      This statement is what it is about.


      Your fascination of seeing your name on screen and people actually responding to inane theme questions such as this one ... might have some credibility ... if you had made any meaningful contributions to the Inquest threads ,  the VillaReal thread and the Borussia thread.

      When also asked to prove your ludicrous statements you are unable to ... you hide.


      Comparing us to another club? 
      Subject of an LFCReds thread FFS ?



      Completely ridiculous and bizarre in the extreme.

      Roddenberry
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #31: May 14, 2016 10:52:38 am
      Why the new Leicester? It's not even like the tactics used by Ranieri are anything 'new', they've just been implemented very well.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #32: May 14, 2016 01:10:10 pm

      Lot of contempt here for Leicester - let's face facts, they have managed to win the Premiership, something that we have yet to achieve.

      Not only that but the odds they had to overcome to do it, being nearly relegated last year and with their financial handicap were 5000-1 - in other words, higher than any of the titles or cups we have won. To put it in perspective, the odds for us winning the match at half time in Istanbul were 100-1.

      Yes they may only have done it once but you have to respect the fact they are Champions. Thinking we are automatically going to dominate the league and Europe just because of our history in the 70s and 80s is just entitlement culture. We last won the league at (around) the same time Everton did.

      I'm not too arrogant to think we can learn something from a team which has scaled the biggest footballing heights since Clough's Forest.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #33: May 14, 2016 01:12:41 pm
      Dear Mr Balls .

      This statement is what it is about.


      Your fascination of seeing your name on screen and people actually responding to inane theme questions such as this one ... might have some credibility ... if you had made any meaningful contributions to the Inquest threads ,  the VillaReal thread and the Borussia thread.

      When also asked to prove your ludicrous statements you are unable to ... you hide.


      Comparing us to another club? 
      Subject of an LFCReds thread FFS ?



      Completely ridiculous and bizarre in the extreme.

      If you took the effort to read the article I posted and had the brains to understand what it meant you would see that becoming "the old Liverpool" is precisely what it's NOT about.
      billythered
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #34: May 14, 2016 01:34:54 pm
      Lot of contempt here for Leicester - let's face facts, they have managed to win the Premiership, something that we have yet to achieve.

      Not only that but the odds they had to overcome to do it, being nearly relegated last year and with their financial handicap were 5000-1 - in other words, higher than any of the titles or cups we have won. To put it in perspective, the odds for us winning the match at half time in Istanbul were 100-1.

      Yes they may only have done it once but you have to respect the fact they are Champions. Thinking we are automatically going to dominate the league and Europe just because of our history in the 70s and 80s is just entitlement culture. We last won the league at (around) the same time Everton did.

      I'm not too arrogant to think we can learn something from a team which has scaled the biggest footballing heights since Clough's Forest.

      Mate your once again talking out of your chocolate star fish, what exactly can we learn from Leicester f***in city,? OK fair play to them they won the f***in league and deservedly so, but c'mon look at the factors, Chavs being sh*te, Citeh capitulating, Arse once again flattering to deceive, Munts the same, and Spuds bottling it,
      That's the facts, Leicester City, with no European football to contend with, no major injuries, a fully committed squad singing from the same songsheet and playing once sometimes twice a week,

      They took full advantage of their opportunity, kept their momentum and got there,
      So go on, tell us all exactly what is their magic formula of which we can learn from??

      YNWA
      MIRO
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #35: May 14, 2016 01:40:57 pm
      If you took the effort to read the article I posted and had the brains to understand what it meant you would see that becoming "the old Liverpool" is precisely what it's NOT about.

      OK
      Let me delete the bit that disturbs you .

      Dear Mr Balls .

      Your fascination of seeing your name on screen and people actually responding to inane theme questions such as this one ... might have some credibility ... if you had made any meaningful contributions to the Inquest threads ,  the VillaReal thread and the Borussia thread.

      When also asked to prove your ludicrous statements you are unable to ... you hide.

      Comparing us to another club? 
      Subject of an LFCReds thread FFS ?

      Completely ridiculous and bizarre in the extreme.


      Happy ?



      s@int
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #36: May 14, 2016 01:43:26 pm
      They took full advantage of their opportunity, kept their momentum and got there,
      So go on, tell us all exactly what is their magic formula of which we can learn from??

      Take full advantage of our opportunity, keep our momentum and get there :)

      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #37: May 14, 2016 01:47:49 pm
      OK
      Let me delete the bit that disturbs you .

      Happy ?

      Even though you were completely wrong about it you deleted the only bit of your post that had something do with the football and the title of the thread.

      The rest of if is about me - once again you manage to ruin another thread with your bizarre obsession with me.
      billythered
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #38: May 14, 2016 01:50:40 pm
      Take full advantage of our opportunity, keep our momentum and get there :)



      It's a winning formula S@int especially if you only have domestic football to contend with, the whole lot changes when you add weekly European football, have only recovery time with your charges, playing 4 times within a fortnight, not forgetting injuries sustained by having to over play your staff, etc etc,


      YNWA
      s@int
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #39: May 14, 2016 01:59:38 pm
      It's a winning formula S@int especially if you only have domestic football to contend with, the whole lot changes when you add weekly European football, have only recovery time with your charges, playing 4 times within a fortnight, not forgetting injuries sustained by having to over play your staff, etc etc,


      YNWA

      I agree mate. So I suppose the answer is either that we prioritize more, or have a squad of sufficient size and strength to cope with the extra demands.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #40: May 14, 2016 02:03:48 pm
      I agree mate. So I suppose the answer is either that we prioritize more, or have a squad of sufficient size and strength to cope with the extra demands.

      Either way, come next season these excuses of playing too many games certainly won't wash.

      When your fan-base demands cups, title challenges, then these same demands cannot be used as excuses forever.

      Klopp is supposedly getting them fitter for it.
      billythered
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #41: May 14, 2016 02:08:38 pm
      Lot of contempt here for Leicester - let's face facts, they have managed to win the Premiership, something that we have yet to achieve.

      Not only that but the odds they had to overcome to do it, being nearly relegated last year and with their financial handicap were 5000-1 - in other words, higher than any of the titles or cups we have won. To put it in perspective, the odds for us winning the match at half time in Istanbul were 100-1.

      Yes they may only have done it once but you have to respect the fact they are Champions. Thinking we are automatically going to dominate the league and Europe just because of our history in the 70s and 80s is just entitlement culture. We last won the league at (around) the same time Everton did.

      I'm not too arrogant to think we can learn something from a team which has scaled the biggest footballing heights since Clough's Forest.

      Mate your once again talking out of your chocolate star fish, what exactly can we learn from Leicester f***in city,? OK fair play to them they won the f***in league and deservedly so, but c'mon look at the factors, Chavs being sh*te, Citeh capitulating, Arse once again flattering to deceive, Munts the same, and Spuds bottling it,
      That's the facts, Leicester City, with no European football to contend with, no major injuries, a fully committed squad singing from the same songsheet and playing once sometimes twice a week,

      They took full advantage of their opportunity, kept their momentum and got there,
      So go on, tell us all exactly what is their magic formula of which we can learn from??

      YNWA
      Lot of contempt here for Leicester - let's face facts, they have managed to win the Premiership, something that we have yet to achieve.

      Not only that but the odds they had to overcome to do it, being nearly relegated last year and with their financial handicap were 5000-1 - in other words, higher than any of the titles or cups we have won. To put it in perspective, the odds for us winning the match at half time in Istanbul were 100-1.

      Yes they may only have done it once but you have to respect the fact they are Champions. Thinking we are automatically going to dominate the league and Europe just because of our history in the 70s and 80s is just entitlement culture. We last won the league at (around) the same time Everton did.

      I'm not too arrogant to think we can learn something from a team which has scaled the biggest footballing heights since Clough's Forest.

      Got to pick out your last paragraph fella, are you honestly compairing Leicester winning the league
       to that of Forest not only winning the league and winning the European cup and defending it,are you actually saying Leicester's is a better achievement?

      You really are talking absolute bollocks if you honestly think that??

      Ffs honestly.!!


      YNWA
      billythered
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #42: May 14, 2016 02:28:19 pm
      I agree mate. So I suppose the answer is either that we prioritize more, or have a squad of sufficient size and strength to cope with the extra demands.

      Squad size would certainly help for sure, as for prioritising we would have to seriously think about it, we might have our hands forced by the end of next week in any case, worse case scenario for example is we miss out league position wise and by some miracle Sevilla get the better of us Wednesday, a double kick in the nuts for sure,

      I make no secret that I wouldn't mind a European free season to help us bring home no 19, CL and all the trimmings will come eventually under JĂŒrgen imho , so we miss out for one season, but I refer back to the advantage Leicester had with only domestic football to contend with, the problem with that is of course keeping everybody happy as far as game time goes, it's a head scratcher alright, a solution of course is winning next Wednesday and JĂŒrgen giving it bifters, and putting LFC very much back on the European map ?


      YNWA
      srslfc
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #43: May 14, 2016 02:42:37 pm
      Mate your once again talking out of your chocolate star fish, what exactly can we learn from Leicester f***in city,?

      We can learn that if the coach assesses his squad and plays football to maximize their ability and plays to their strengths you can win the league.
      billythered
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #44: May 14, 2016 04:11:02 pm
      We can learn that if the coach assesses his squad and plays football to maximize their ability and plays to their strengths you can win the league.


      All true and correct Si, sounds simple doesn't it, perhaps JĂŒrgen has been assessing our squad so that he will have us playing football that will maximise the players ability , and will add strength and quality in the summer, we are all aware that to win the league you need the rub of the green as well as a hell of a lot of other things to go your way throughout the entirety of the campaign,

      a larger squad with added quality is key, having two players for each position for instance would go a long way in rolling with consistency, imho I don't think we are far off achieving that, of course it's rare to have a complete squad with all at their peak all at the same time,

      It's clear that JĂŒrgen wants a certain level of fitness to allow him to play the style that he believes in, we've seen evidence recently to suggest he's getting there, the difference in key players such as Lallana, Allen, Sturridge, Lovren, Moreno is testament to that, most of those players were being ridiculed earlier in this season mostly for lack of effort or so it seemed,

      I think we will see a Liverpool capable of running 120 minutes of high octane , high pressing football that most in the EPL will struggle to deal with, I think we will see key players in Can, Firmino, Coutinho, Lallana Sturridge, Lovren, et al reach a level even they would be surprised with add the new quality players JĂŒrgen will bring in, and then add a team mindset where everyone has the same goal, consistency, a winning mentality and a attitude of never say die, put all this together and we become a very formidable side and one very much to fear,

      We all go into a new season with fresh optimism and hope we're up there competing at the top of the table, it is my belief we will not only be within the top 4 I think we will be in contention for no 19.


      YNWA
      MIRO
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #45: May 14, 2016 05:20:22 pm
      The rest of if (sic) is about me


      Self Obsessed.?

      Box Of Frogs had your shirt  ....

      "Why Always Me ? "

        ;D



      « Last Edit: May 15, 2016 12:50:23 am by eurored »
      waltonl4
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #46: May 14, 2016 06:17:42 pm
      if anything can be learned from Leicester its that tactics talk is all bollox it is all about the players Leicester had terrible possession and pass completion rates but they kept on going game after game with that attitude and better players we could actually do something next season in the League.
      GERNS
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #47: May 14, 2016 10:56:36 pm
      So no European matches to contend with, early exit from domestic cups,
      Only, occasionally two games per week. This allowed Leicester to win the prem. Well there's another 12 clubs with similar circumstances who never got close.
      Credit where credits due. They found a formula which suited the players they had, end of last season to avoid relegation, and continued with it this season.
      I think the biggest contributing factor after the players, was the united belief in what they were doing, and never doubting it. Next was the shear hard graft from every squad member involved.

      I like to think we are developing a similar attitude under Klopp, but with mostly more talented players we have s different style. When Klopp slots in the two or three missing pieces, I expect us to make the next step up and continue our journey to more silverware and unrivalled success.
      But Leicester we will never be, and nor do we need to be, we will have our own identity and style under Klopp, even unlike Dortmund.
      We are Liverpool F. C. Don't forget.
      bigears
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #48: May 14, 2016 11:12:25 pm
      What was the question again?oh yes are Leicester going to become the new Blackburn rovers , of course they are .
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #49: May 15, 2016 12:53:07 am
      Mate your once again talking out of your chocolate star fish, what exactly can we learn from Leicester f***in city,? OK fair play to them they won the f***in league and deservedly so, but c'mon look at the factors, Chavs being sh*te, Citeh capitulating, Arse once again flattering to deceive, Munts the same, and Spuds bottling it,
      That's the facts, Leicester City, with no European football to contend with, no major injuries, a fully committed squad singing from the same songsheet and playing once sometimes twice a week,

      They took full advantage of their opportunity, kept their momentum and got there,
      So go on, tell us all exactly what is their magic formula of which we can learn from??

      YNWA
      Got to pick out your last paragraph fella, are you honestly compairing Leicester winning the league
       to that of Forest not only winning the league and winning the European cup and defending it,are you actually saying Leicester's is a better achievement?

      You really are talking absolute bollocks if you honestly think that??

      Ffs honestly.!!


      YNWA

      No  - Forest had the better achievement, hence I said it was the biggest achievement SINCE Clough's Forest.

      What can we learn?

      Well you tell me.

      do we have better players than Leicester?

      Do we have a better tradition than Leicester?

      Do we have a bigger budget than Leicester?

      If "Yes" to any of these questions do you think we can learn something from where they have succeeded and we have failed?
      Magillionare
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #50: May 15, 2016 01:42:00 am
      We can learn from Leicester, we can learn from Barcelona, we can learn from Norwich, we can learn from Villa, we can learn from ourselves.

      If you're not looking at other teams and learning from what they do well and what they don't then you don't have a good scouting system in place, and you're naive about your place in world football.

      To say 'we are Liverpool, we don't learn from anyone' is just stupid and it's that kind of closed mind mentality that ignorance thrives in and success dies in. You don't think Klopp has every club in the league being looked at closely? You think we aren't taking things from German football and using them in our club now? We learn everyday from everyone including Leicester.
      Gill95
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #51: May 15, 2016 04:51:14 am
      No  - Forest had the better achievement, hence I said it was the biggest achievement SINCE Clough's Forest.

      What can we learn?

      Well you tell me.

      do we have better players than Leicester?

      Do we have a better tradition than Leicester?

      Do we have a bigger budget than Leicester?

      If "Yes" to any of these questions do you think we can learn something from where they have succeeded and we have failed?
      We learnt here that one season wonders can happen, given the right circumstances.

      Lets not make a big deal out of Leicester's achievement. The only teams that we can learn from are the ones that have consistently maintained success, not one season wonders.

      As this topic is initially supposed to be about tactics, then i doubt we can learn anything from their 4-4-2 this season. Yes, it gave them the title, but the players played out of their skin and had adequate rest before every game. Next season is going to be their acid test, which i'm pretty sure is gonna burn their players up.

      We can make 1 comparison here. Give Ranieri the tight schedule that we had, and injuries to his key players, then we'll see as to where his 4-4-2 will take him. Give him 2 games almost every week, and then see the magic.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #52: May 15, 2016 08:13:57 am
      I like this thread, a few have clung on to the title and responded to the title to that but the question in here is "can we adopt some of the strategies employed by Leicester and win the league with a different style of play?". The league I suspect has never been won by a team with such low possession statistics, I think Leicester must have averaged in the low 40% for the season, it's unheard of. HB made a reference to our approach under Houllier and he is right to a point, we did sit deep, suck in he opposition and kill hem with balls I to space for Heskey and Owen which utilised the excellent passing of Gerrard, Gary Mac and Danny Murphy on the counter. However, agains the lesser sides we still dominated the ball and had to break down opposition who sat back.

      I still think this season is a one off, a blip and that possession will win out BUT if doing a Leicester means defending like they did in he run in, holdin your nerve when winning games 1-0 and being superb at defending at set pieces I'm all for some of that!
      billythered
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #53: May 15, 2016 09:35:37 am
      No  - Forest had the better achievement, hence I said it was the biggest achievement SINCE Clough's Forest.

      What can we learn?

      Well you tell me.

      do we have better players than Leicester?

      Do we have a better tradition than Leicester?

      Do we have a bigger budget than Leicester?

      If "Yes" to any of these questions do you think we can learn something from where they have succeeded and we have failed?



      You start off your post saying there's contempt for Leicester, but in all honesty the contempt comes from you, you have made it evident that you dislike this club on many occasions and this just another of your posts designed to rile others and to make yourself feel as if you belong , you don't belong mate not to this family, a true supporter would not hold such contempt for a club they claim to support

      I take back the comment 'since Forest' I obviously read that wrong, however, you still reiterate that we Liverpool FC with all our history, all our experiences, all our successes, can learn from a Leicester city side who up until this season had won practically F**k ALL,

      The answer to all your inane questions is of course 'yes' we do have better players, we do have better traditions, and we do have a larger budget,

      It might have escaped your knowledge however minuscule that seems to be, but...


      Did Leicester have the injuries like what we sustained throughout the season,?


      Did Leicester play in a gruelling Europa cup competition again throughout the season,?


      Did Leicester play in the every round of a domestic cup competition including a final ?


      Did Leicester have the same amount of time to work with their manager as did ours ?


      Did Leicester play 2, 3  times a week and on one occasion 4 in a fortnight ?

      If you answered 'yes' to any of them your more deluded than we thought,

      You point out that we have failed, yet we have played in one cup final and have another next week, yet our manager like Leicester's is new, with less than 7 months in charge, for me that is progress, and unlike Ranieri our manager hasn't had a pre-season with his players ,


      It seems odd to me but while we true supporters were giving it bifters during our recent wins you on the other hand seem to have gone awol, I think that says it all about you really, your agenda shouts loud and clear exactly what kind of person you are !


      The art of Wummery is well and truly alive !



      YNWA


      MIRO
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #54: May 15, 2016 09:52:05 am


      You start off your post saying there's contempt for Leicester, but in all honesty the contempt comes from you, you have made it evident that you dislike this club on many occasions and this just another of your posts designed to rile others and to make yourself feel as if you belong , you don't belong mate not to this family, a true supporter would not hold such contempt for a club they claim to support


      You point out that we have failed, yet we have played in one cup final and have another next week, yet our manager like Leicester's is new, with less than 7 months in charge, for me that is progress, and unlike Ranieri our manager hasn't had a pre-season with his players ,


      It seems odd to me but while we true supporters were giving it bifters during our recent wins you on the other hand seem to have gone awol, I think that says it all about you really, your agenda shouts loud and clear exactly what kind of person you are !


      The art of Wummery is well and truly alive !



      YNWA




      Says it all Billy.

      lfc across the water
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #55: May 16, 2016 07:19:18 am
      Quote from eurored
      When also asked to prove your ludicrous statements you are unable to ... you hide.

      Comparing us to another club? 
      Subject of an LFCReds thread FFS ?

      Completely ridiculous and bizarre in the extreme.

      You are talking about someone who says Jan Molby (who has won a league here, and again, and again, and the FA Cup for good measure) is wrong when he says teams should be able to cope with playing twice a week, like his teams did. Just dismisses it out of hand.

      Anyway, we've won the league 18 times, so they have a lot of catching up to do, before you can start comparing us to them.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #56: May 16, 2016 02:34:08 pm
      Ah yes, thanks for the reminder - Jan Molby was a great player but when it came to understanding sport science and how to organise a team we should probably look at his managerial statistics, no?

      Two periods at Kidderminster Harriers punctuated by a spell at Swansea before moving onto Hull where he managed a win percentage of 11%  (two wins, eight draws, seven losses).
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #57: May 16, 2016 02:43:57 pm
      Ah yes, thanks for the reminder - Jan Molby was a great player but when it came to understanding sport science and how to organise a team we should probably look at his managerial statistics, no?

      Two periods at Kidderminster Harriers punctuated by a spell at Swansea before moving onto Hull where he managed a win percentage of 11%  (two wins, eight draws, seven losses).

      He's still managed in football - what's your statistics then?

      Throw sports science about all you want, they're the professionals, you ain't!!



      ORCHARD RED
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #58: May 16, 2016 02:51:45 pm
      Nobody saw Leicester coming. While all the top teams were focusing on how to counter each other by nullifying their tactics, Leicester played their own game and stuck to it, an damn it worked. Maybe the lesson is always play to your strengths, it almost worked for Brendan too.
      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #59: May 16, 2016 03:27:06 pm
      He's still managed in football - what's your statistics then?

      Throw sports science about all you want, they're the professionals, you ain't!!

      Sure but there are plenty of successful professionals who take the opposite view to Molby - I agree with them.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #60: May 16, 2016 03:29:46 pm
      He's still managed in football - what's your statistics then?

      Throw sports science about all you want, they're the professionals, you ain't!!





      Professional bullshitter not count?

      Hollywood Balls
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #61: May 16, 2016 03:40:06 pm
      I'd say the key things we can learn from Leicester are:

      1. Stop blaming the owners for "not backing the manager" every time we lose a game - finance is important but not essential to winning the league. As now proven.

      2. We should be going into every season aiming to win with the resources available - no five year plans or putting things on hold to enact a philosophy.

      3. The training regime has to make the best use of our available players with the title in mind - there's absolutely no point in flogging them into the physios room midway through a season.

      4. Players should play based on merit and form and not be frozen out which just creates disharmony in the dressing room.
      nikos
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      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #62: May 16, 2016 03:57:12 pm
      I'd say the key things we can learn from Leicester are:

      1. Stop blaming the owners for "not backing the manager" every time we lose a game - finance is important but not essential to winning the league. As now proven.

      2. We should be going into every season aiming to win with the resources available - no five year plans or putting things on hold to enact a philosophy.

      3. The training regime has to make the best use of our available players with the title in mind - there's absolutely no point in flogging them into the physios room midway through a season.

      4. Players should play based on merit and form and not be frozen out which just creates disharmony in the dressing room.

      Fair points all four of them but they were all part of Ranieri's last summer planning Leicester to avoid being relegated and not win the title.

      Next season for example after a defeat they will start the blaming towards the owners or the manager as being defeated in one or two games will be not something natural as it would have deemed this season. ''As long as we stay well above the relegation zone of the table no one blames no one''. That was the philosophy that won't be there next season to protect the squad. This is the mistake that usually costs one season wonder teams dear, that is start considering themselves a title winning club.

      LFC IMO can't be planned on this basis. It's not a pressure free club.




       
      « Last Edit: May 17, 2016 06:47:32 am by nikos »
      GERNS
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
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      • 12,320 posts | 1524 
      Re: Are we going to become the new Leicester?
      Reply #63: May 16, 2016 09:30:29 pm
      win the title one season, and the pressure is doubled the next season. Do Leicester have the strength in depth to cope with that, as well as all the extra european games, (thats if they get out of the group stages)
      I doubt it. I admire them for what they have achieved, but not sure they'll make the top 4 next season.

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