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      They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)

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      MIRO
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #23: Jun 01, 2016 07:47:51 pm
      Whose removed my post and why ?
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #24: Jun 01, 2016 08:04:39 pm
      Again the lack of a big money signing or big name will cause some here to throw the toys out
      That's quite possible for "some" I suppose A-Zed but for me (like you) I couldn't give a flying F**k about money spent... not only 'cause we have sh*t-loads of it but at the end of the day - the proof of the pudding is always in the eating. I've been round this game too long to ever be fooled into believing otherwise.  ;)

      So is Jürgen blagging us to be seen as billy big bollocks or is Ayre?
      The first I've seen that; thanks for sharing. Personally I'd believe what Jürgen says alright and without cherry-picking, what I choose to believe, either.   :laugh:
       
      « Last Edit: Jun 01, 2016 09:30:01 pm by bad boy bubby »
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #25: Jun 01, 2016 08:13:39 pm
      Judging by who wd have signed so far it seems Jürgen's hands are definitely behind the wheel.
      billythered
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #26: Jun 01, 2016 08:13:47 pm
      Whose removed my post and why ?

      Re-post it mate, see what occurs?

      YNWA
      Ribapuru
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #27: Jun 01, 2016 09:14:59 pm
      Klopp should not be choosing from a shortlist, he short be making his own shortlist.
      AZPatriot
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #28: Jun 01, 2016 09:16:49 pm
      Klopp should not be choosing from a shortlist, he short be making his own shortlist.

      And do you think that Matip & Karius were on Jürgen's list or the clubs list?
      JD
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #29: Jun 01, 2016 09:23:30 pm
      I don't think it's that black and white. Loris Karius. Are we supposed to believe Liverpools scouts off their own back started scouting keepers in the Bundesliga?

      I think the pattern has been at the outset LFC managers have a big input and then (when they've bought badly) gradually over time get reduced to picking from options.
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #30: Jun 01, 2016 09:24:49 pm
      And do you think that Matip & Karius were on Jürgen's list or the clubs list?
      I don't know about Matip but surely our chief scout, Barry Hunter, would have definitely had some prior knowledge of Karius and/or even input to his earlier transfer to City.  :confused-smiley-013:

      In a similar vein - Do you think Caulker was on Jürgen's list or the Club's list?

       

      AZPatriot
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #31: Jun 01, 2016 09:35:56 pm
      I don't know about Matip but surely our chief scout, Barry Hunter, would have definitely had some prior knowledge of Karius and/or even input to his earlier transfer to City.  :confused-smiley-013:

      In a similar vein - Do you think Caulker was on Jürgen's list or the Club's list?

       



      I think Jürgen asked those at the club already..can you find me a CB to loan in that knows the league.

      I would imagine both Hunter (from the city recruitment) and Jugen (from playing against) were on the same page when it came to Karius.
      PastorGeek
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #32: Jun 01, 2016 09:48:14 pm
      This is a good question.

      From what i understand, at Dortmund Klopp didnt sign players anyways, there was also a 'committee' and Michal Zorc did all the transfer dealings (i could be wrong).

      This could also explain why we got Jürgen too. He has experience working win this way.

      Quote
      Can the arrival of Klopp trigger an improvement in Liverpool's transfer dealings? Time will tell. One thing is for sure, history suggests the German is a dab hand both at spotting players and then developing them.

      Though rarely involved in negotiations or financial considerations – Hans-Joachim Watzke and Michael Zorc took care of that – Klopp was instrumental in identifying players that could come in and fit his system.

      http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-fc-Jürgen-klopps-transfer-10236189

      This doesnt sound too far off the situation brendan had. Who knows only time will tell i guess.
      PastorGeek
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #33: Jun 01, 2016 09:49:53 pm
      I don't think it's that black and white. Loris Karius. Are we supposed to believe Liverpools scouts off their own back started scouting keepers in the Bundesliga?


      Fair point. If brendan was still here we would have got the burnley keeper  ;D
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #34: Jun 01, 2016 09:52:09 pm
      I would imagine both Hunter (from the city recruitment) and Jugen (from playing against) were on the same page when it came to Karius.
      So he was (possibly) on the Club's list. Fair enough. I guess then It's also possible Hunter also knew about Matip. Get's complicated; doesn't it?  :laugh: 

      Fair point. If brendan was still here we would have got the burnley keeper
      That Heaton fella is alright. Try again.  ;)
      reddebs
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #35: Jun 01, 2016 10:44:09 pm
      This is a good question.

      From what i understand, at Dortmund Klopp didnt sign players anyways, there was also a 'committee' and Michal Zorc did all the transfer dealings (i could be wrong).

      This could also explain why we got Jürgen too. He has experience working win this way.

      http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-fc-Jürgen-klopps-transfer-10236189

      This doesnt sound too far off the situation brendan had. Who knows only time will tell i guess.

      I don't think you understand our committee set up mate.  At Dortmund it was pretty simple, Jürgen, his brains and eyes did the scouting, Zorc did the negotiating after Watzke decided on the maximum price.

      Here we have stats guys who after the scouting reports come in run algorithms, on a software programme they designed, that also decides on a maximum price based on how well they "match" the requirements of the programme.  If the player Jürgen wants comes out with a high points total, the negotiations start.

      It's this part of the "committee" Jürgen has to overcome, the stats guys.  Not that I have a problem with stats per se, they play a big part in all recruitment processes, our problem previously is that they override everything.

      There's an article or an interview or something in the Mane thread, we were supposed to sign him before he went to Southampton, everything agreed, personal terms etc till the computer said no.  His stats didn't come up to scratch so he was rejected.  Now we're looking at spending over £30m to get him.

      They don't need to scrap it completely but have more trust in Jürgen and his teams appraisals of the players they believe they need, even if the computer says no.
      s@int
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #36: Jun 01, 2016 11:02:09 pm
      but when does that honeymoon period end?

      As soon as Jürgen starts making comments such as "We need quality not quantity" or "I wanted a sofa and they bought me a lampshade" we will know the honeymoon is over mate. :)

      Red John
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #37: Jun 01, 2016 11:16:48 pm
      Rodgers said he had the final choice same as what Klopp is saying.

      Rodgers claimed he had not had final say. I believe him because it would be highly unlikely, for example, to buy a young player for  20 mil, play him out of position almost all time and than loan him after couple of months in a situation when you basically don't have options on the wing (Markovic). He probably didn't want a player.

      Liverpool transfer committee had final say on signings NOT me, confirms Brendan Rodgers

      The Northern Irishman also revealed he would have to sign someone from a list of players, if the additions he wanted were not available.

      Brendan Rodgers has admitted he did NOT have the final say on transfers at Liverpool.

      During the Northern Irishman's three-year spell on Merseyside, the Reds spent a staggering £292m on players - with a further £200m banked from outgoings.

      The club's infamous transfer committee ran the rule over all dealings at Anfield, and remains in place under Jürgen Klopp.

      And for the first time, Rodgers has opened up on what actually goes on - and revealed the final decision was not his.

      "It was a group decision. It was certainly not something I would have the sole or final say on," he told Sky Sports' Goals on Sunday.

      "The model of the club is slightly different. The owners have a way of working, where they want to bring in young players and see them develop.

      "You look at the players who have come in and they are 24 and below, and the ones who were above that were free transfers.

      "As manager, you will always be the figurehead of the club but there is a recruitment team in place who will look to bring the players in."

      Rodgers also went on to explain how the club formed their shortlist of players - and what would happen if they didn't get their top target.

      He said: "You want a player in and there's a list of players, but if the player you want isn't on that list, you have to take someone.

      "You can't have no players. If you want a left-back, but the one you want isn't available, then there is a list of three or four.

      "You then have to take the best in that group. It is the model."

      Also, if TC use fuc*in software to choose which player is good enough to play for us, I only wonder which computer on the world would classified Balotelli as a good signing.
      « Last Edit: Jun 02, 2016 12:52:09 am by Red John »
      bigmick
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #38: Jun 02, 2016 12:01:10 am
      Whichever system you're using for identifying players, spending 292 million quid in four seasons transfer windows while bringing in 200 million isn't really backing the manager. 23 million quid NET spend a season is hardly going for it in a big way.

      I'm constantly surprised that the policy of the owners in bringing in young players, giving the transfer committee so much power etc doesn't have more fans up in arms. It seems we just accept it, cross our fingers that the new manager can unearth a few gems and get in with it. Then if any of us say the owners are not giving him a chance, people rare up up on us and say WE'RE not backing the manager. It's a source of constant amazement to me, then the same people accuse me of "dumbing down expectations". Very confusing.
      AZPatriot
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #39: Jun 02, 2016 12:07:30 am
      Whichever system you're using for identifying players, spending 292 million quid in four seasons transfer windows while bringing in 200 million isn't really backing the manager. 23 million quid NET spend a season is hardly going for it in a big way.

      I'm constantly surprised that the policy of the owners in bringing in young players, giving the transfer committee so much power etc doesn't have more fans up in arms. It seems we just accept it, cross our fingers that the new manager can unearth a few gems and get in with it. Then if any of us say the owners are not giving him a chance, people rare up up on us and say WE'RE not backing the manager. It's a source of constant amazement to me, then the same people accuse me of "dumbing down expectations". Very confusing.

      To be fair Mick we are averging 32.6 a season not that the extra 10 million makes that big of a difference


      #   Net Spend                 last 5 Years   Purchased Gross   Sold   Net   Per Season
                          
      1   Manchester City   £472,800,000   £159,300,000   £313,500,000   £62,700,000
      2   Manchester United   £432,700,000   £144,400,000   £288,300,000   £57,660,000
      4   Chelsea   £475,959,000   £277,250,000   £198,709,000   £39,741,800
      3   Liverpool   £354,100,000   £190,770,000   £163,330,000   £32,666,000
      5   Arsenal   £258,625,000   £154,600,000   £104,025,000   £20,805,000

      http://www.transferleague.co.uk/premier-league-last-five-seasons/transfer-league-tables/premier-league-table-last-five-seasons

      Spurs are -£10 million a season for the past 5 years.




      As far as wages go for this past season we are 5th.
      NO#   CLUB     2013-14    2014-15    2015-16
      3   Chelsea   £190m   £192.7m   £215.6m
      1   Manchester United   £187m   £215.8m   £203 m
      2   Manchester City   £216m   £205m   £193.8m
      4   Arsenal   £166.4m   £180.4m   £192m
      5   Liverpool   £140m   £144m   £152m
      6   Tottenham    £112m   £100.4m   £110.5m

      http://www.totalsportek.com/money/english-premier-league-wage-bills-club-by-club/

      We have teams paying less wages and spending less in transfers but finished above us in the league...this is the major issue to me more than anything as it shows financial capability but poor management from top to bottom of the resources available.

      If everything was about money and that is all it was then I would expect us to be right around 4th/5th every year instead we are finishing 6, 8, 7, 2, 6, 8th.   Of course its not all about money the teams finishing above us each year, Spurs especially are doing so and not spending anything near where what we do.

      Lot's of waste going on...in part to the owners being naive, part to the TC and the main part I believe is a lack of a crystal clear focus on what we are all about; I am really hoping that Jürgen is here to give this club the focus it needs and the other parties (ownership, management, supporters) all just get out of his way and let him do his thing.   
      « Last Edit: Jun 02, 2016 12:26:16 am by AZPatriot »
      bigmick
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #40: Jun 02, 2016 12:36:22 am
      Good post AZ. That said if I'm reading your NET spend numbers correct, that's over the last five seasons whereas I'm talking about over that last four.

      In wages we are 50 million quid a season (at least) behind the biggest spenders. That's ten blokes on 100K a week, in other words quite a f****** lot.
      bigmick
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #41: Jun 02, 2016 12:44:23 am
      Also AZ another point from your excellent post, on Spurs. They've stumbled upon an absolutely top striker who has appeared from nowhere from their youth ranks which really helps. Not quite a Steven Gerrard moment, but it is an absolutely huge bonus and as such I'd expect them to outperform any spending figures, such things really help in a big way. Of course the signing of Deli Ali for 5 million quid has had a similar effect (and of course it's worth remembering he was another player who was a managers pick at Liverpool but that we missed out on through low balling).

      Leicester too will blow cash spend versus performance charts out of the water. But Mahrez, Cante and Vardy are ensuring that is the case. By and large though, if you are going to compete at the top f the league for a sustained period you have to compete at the top of the league in transfers and wages.

      My contention has always been that if funds ARE limited (which it appears they are) why bother wasting money buying players the manager doesn't want? Why not put the manager fully in the picture as to what our budget is overall in terms of fees and wages, then let HIM decide where he allocates the funds? By all means let Ayre do the negotiating with the selling club, but it should be THE MANAGER who either pulls the plug or goes ahead with the deal.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #42: Jun 02, 2016 12:46:00 am
      Suarez and Sterling recouped over £100m

      Two players, the spend would never have been that big without those sales.
      JD
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #43: Jun 02, 2016 12:59:35 am
      Rodgers claimed he had not had final say.

      After he had been sacked.

      I suppose the transfer committee must have picked the weakest captain we've had in 50 years too.

      Balotelli for Suárez though. Ha ha.

      I'd love to have seen the list where Balotelli was top choice.
      Red John
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #44: Jun 02, 2016 01:20:04 am
      After he had been sacked.

      I suppose the transfer committee must have picked the weakest captain we've had in 50 years too.

      Balotelli for Suárez though. Ha ha.

      I'd love to have seen the list where Balotelli was top choice.

      I didn't expect from Rodgers to tell TC transfers are sh*t when he is still in the job. I also believe that he would rather keep Suarez  than sign any other striker in the world. TC didn't picked captain, I agree, but also didn't coach the team when we played superb football 2013/2014. I just don't think Rodgers is man to blame for every bad transfer during his tenure. He fuc*ed up many times, but I don't think all transfers are his fault.
      PastorGeek
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      Re: They Go... Who Decides? (Big Jürgen Is Watching You)
      Reply #45: Jun 02, 2016 01:51:46 am
      Quote
      "You look at the players who have come in and they are 24 and below, and the ones who were above that were free transfers.

      "As manager, you will always be the figurehead of the club but there is a recruitment team in place who will look to bring the players in."

      This is interesting. And from the looks of it. Kinda true.

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