Is Klopp or the Transfer committee in charge?

Oh right nice of you to remind everyone of your superior intellect!

And you certainly don't mind letting everyone know at every opportunity   

He's obviously not that clever mate... he included you

I think the process is clear and Jürgen is not that dumb.

Assuming Jürgen's appointment was done in the right manner, Jürgen would have made it very clear from the start that bringing in the TC's players which he doesn't endorse would result in them rotting in the reserves or going on loan. That would result in an even bigger liability on the wage budget.

I think those smart buggers know that by now.

My main worry is that Jürgen believes our scouting system and TC is as good as the one he had at Dortmund and thinks their recommendations will be just as golden.

If he does not know already, then he will find out very quickly that they are not

If he does not know already, then he will find out very quickly that they are not

Probably clicked when he asked for a striker and they gave him Steven Caulker and told him to stick the big lad up front   

Don't know, don't care as long as we win the frigging League, and to be honest, the Manager is the one who buys great players and the Transfer Committee buys the rubbish, that's how it worked before, and that's how it works now.

Why change a winning formula. 

How it should work is that the Manager Identifies the player he wants and the transfer committee goes out and negotiates to buy that player, alas FSG and the Transfer committee believes it is them who choose the player and the managers only jobs are  (a) to manage (b) to keep the side winning   

A very sad state of affairs for the club and the manager

Not for the first time Debs I've read your post and cannot for the life of me fathom where in my stuff you've drawn the conclusions you've drawn. You've got a habit of picking me up on things in my posts which aren't actually there, it's a bit strange to be honest.

Here's a quick checklist of what I ACTUALLY think:


1. I think Jürgen should be backed to a much greater extent in the transfer market than it appears so far. Dahoud for example, if Jürgen wants him we should pay what it costs to get him.

2. I don't believe Jürgen will have had much idea who Ben Chilwell is until somebody pointed him in that direction. I think if Jürgen was genuinely looking for competition/a replacement for Moreno his first choice wouldn't be a 19 year old kid who hasn't played a league game.

3. I think if we give Jürgen the tools (proper ones, not that stuff from poundland which is no good for anything) he can build us a platform and win us many trophies. 

4. I'm not looking to "divide" anybody, I'm 100% behind the manager but about 8% behind the owners. I think they are c***s who are pulling the wool over the eyes of supporters.

5. I think the transfer committee arrangement and our recruitment/wages policy we have is bollocks. If it remains in place as it was, changing the manager/the bloke who takes the rap when it f***s up doesn't change the fact that it's bollocks. It is still bollocks whoever is in charge.

6. I think under these circumstances and given how much money our rivals are throwing at it, Jurgens task is impossible.

I'll start with Chilwell.  He may well have been recommended by the TC or he may have been recommended by his mate at Huddersfield or it may have been a bit of both.  You may well be right that Jürgen doesn't know anything about him but he is what he is looking for according to this today.  He doesn't want a replacement.

Liverpool are looking for a young left-back who will grow and develop under the guidance of Klopp.

The Reds have been heavily linked with FC Cologne’s Jonas Hector. However, the Germany international doesn’t fit that description and the ECHO understands he’s not being pursued.

You back him 100% but believe he's not being given the tools to do the job and have also stated quite clearly that he has an impossible job to achieve anything unless the owners back him with more money and better players than they appear to be giving him.  All this despite knowing full well that he has achieved amazing things by not spending loads of money.

Now to me that's not backing him, that's saying yeah he's great and we're lucky to have him but really he's never going to achieve anything unless he changes everything that's worked for him before.

Now for the not wanting to divide bit - you already know that some of us have absolute faith in his abilities and are excited and positive about what he can achieve in the coming seasons, then there are others who question if his ability will translate in the PL, that without top quality players, more top level experience and a lot of money he's got an impossible job (your words) to achieve anything much better than what we've had over the last 6 or 7 seasons.

If you didn't want to be divisive when you started the topic, why name it as one against the other,  instead of as I suggested, and you then agreed with btw, that they are working together?  After all the arguments about our recruitment are nothing new, they've been raging for nearly 6 years, they run into every different transfer target thread, the Managers thread and occasionally someone will resurrect the TCs own thread or the owners thread to post their opinions.

It was always going to be divisive because you made it that way when you started it. 

Jürgen is supposed to be a uniting factor within the fanbase, it's what he wants, it's what we need after all the turmoil of the last decade.  Everyone was ecstatic last October, apart from the odd miserable f**ker, and maybe some who expected him/us to achieve more than we did last seaosn feel a bit let down that we didn't. 

The division has grown on here since his arrival, we haven't united behind him, except when we win, we don't all believe in him or his past achievements.  Whether we agree with the owners policy or not, we have the best manager out their to implement it so why not just let him get on with it and see what happens, instead of deciding he can't do it before he's even tried.

I'll start with Chilwell.  He may well have been recommended by the TC or he may have been recommended by his mate at Huddersfield or it may have been a bit of both.  You may well be right that Jürgen doesn't know anything about him but he is what he is looking for according to this today.  He doesn't want a replacement.

Liverpool are looking for a young left-back who will grow and develop under the guidance of Klopp.

The Reds have been heavily linked with FC Cologne’s Jonas Hector. However, the Germany international doesn’t fit that description and the ECHO understands he’s not being pursued.

You back him 100% but believe he's not being given the tools to do the job and have also stated quite clearly that he has an impossible job to achieve anything unless the owners back him with more money and better players than they appear to be giving him.  All this despite knowing full well that he has achieved amazing things by not spending loads of money.

Now to me that's not backing him, that's saying yeah he's great and we're lucky to have him but really he's never going to achieve anything unless he changes everything that's worked for him before.

Now for the not wanting to divide bit - you already know that some of us have absolute faith in his abilities and are excited and positive about what he can achieve in the coming seasons, then there are others who question if his ability will translate in the PL, that without top quality players, more top level experience and a lot of money he's got an impossible job (your words) to achieve anything much better than what we've had over the last 6 or 7 seasons.

If you didn't want to be divisive when you started the topic, why name it as one against the other,  instead of as I suggested, and you then agreed with btw, that they are working together?  After all the arguments about our recruitment are nothing new, they've been raging for nearly 6 years, they run into every different transfer target thread, the Managers thread and occasionally someone will resurrect the TCs own thread or the owners thread to post their opinions.

It was always going to be divisive because you made it that way when you started it. 

Jürgen is supposed to be a uniting factor within the fanbase, it's what he wants, it's what we need after all the turmoil of the last decade.  Everyone was ecstatic last October, apart from the odd miserable f**ker, and maybe some who expected him/us to achieve more than we did last seaosn feel a bit let down that we didn't. 

The division has grown on here since his arrival, we haven't united behind him, except when we win, we don't all believe in him or his past achievements.  Whether we agree with the owners policy or not, we have the best manager out their to implement it so why not just let him get on with it and see what happens, instead of deciding he can't do it before he's even tried.

I think you make some good points/arguments, but I think the idea that Jürgen wouldn't enjoy signing top players for big money kind of goes out the window with our interest/offers to/canoodling with Texiera, Gotze and Mane?

By the sounds of it, to get Mane we'll have to break our own transfer record, we were wiling to pay a pretty penny in the winter for Texiera (and got outbid) and we were willing to pay Gotze huge wages...so that seems to go against this narrative that Klopp ONLY wants to win/build with younger potential doesn't  it?

I'll start with Chilwell.  He may well have been recommended by the TC or he may have been recommended by his mate at Huddersfield or it may have been a bit of both.  You may well be right that Jürgen doesn't know anything about him but he is what he is looking for according to this today.  He doesn't want a replacement.

Liverpool are looking for a young left-back who will grow and develop under the guidance of Klopp.

The Reds have been heavily linked with FC Cologne’s Jonas Hector. However, the Germany international doesn’t fit that description and the ECHO understands he’s not being pursued.

You back him 100% but believe he's not being given the tools to do the job and have also stated quite clearly that he has an impossible job to achieve anything unless the owners back him with more money and better players than they appear to be giving him.  All this despite knowing full well that he has achieved amazing things by not spending loads of money.

Now to me that's not backing him, that's saying yeah he's great and we're lucky to have him but really he's never going to achieve anything unless he changes everything that's worked for him before.

Now for the not wanting to divide bit - you already know that some of us have absolute faith in his abilities and are excited and positive about what he can achieve in the coming seasons, then there are others who question if his ability will translate in the PL, that without top quality players, more top level experience and a lot of money he's got an impossible job (your words) to achieve anything much better than what we've had over the last 6 or 7 seasons.

If you didn't want to be divisive when you started the topic, why name it as one against the other,  instead of as I suggested, and you then agreed with btw, that they are working together?  After all the arguments about our recruitment are nothing new, they've been raging for nearly 6 years, they run into every different transfer target thread, the Managers thread and occasionally someone will resurrect the TCs own thread or the owners thread to post their opinions.

It was always going to be divisive because you made it that way when you started it. 

Jürgen is supposed to be a uniting factor within the fanbase, it's what he wants, it's what we need after all the turmoil of the last decade.  Everyone was ecstatic last October, apart from the odd miserable f**ker, and maybe some who expected him/us to achieve more than we did last seaosn feel a bit let down that we didn't. 

The division has grown on here since his arrival, we haven't united behind him, except when we win, we don't all believe in him or his past achievements.  Whether we agree with the owners policy or not, we have the best manager out their to implement it so why not just let him get on with it and see what happens, instead of deciding he can't do it before he's even tried.

And by the way, I  think the only divisiveness that exists is coming from the "optimists" telling the transfer concerned to basically shut up and wait and see. I've got no problem with folks  that are content to wait and see and don't care about our transfers...I'm probably somewhat in that camp (although I do like getting linked to a world class player ) but  would hope  I'd never basically deride someone for being impatient.

First of all Debs I didn't start a thread to divide anybody. I didn't start the thread at all in fact, I made a comment in the General Transfers discussion thread and it got moved over here by JD with a "new thread" heading. I was asking a "general transfers" question in the "general transfers" thread, NOT starting a thread and NOT trying to divide anyone (ask the mods if you don't believe me).

Secondly, concluding that "that's not backing him" by asking why we as a club don't give him funds to buy the players HE wants without putting age ceilings on top, re-sale values high on the priority list etc is bonkers. Just because he didn't spend lots of money at Dortmund (principally because they didn't have any, it wasn't a philosophical stance) doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to spend proper money in a league where everyone else does surely?

Look, I think this is the best way me and you can not annoy each other going forward. Why don't we both back Jürgen "IN OUR OWN WAY"?


For me, that means pointing out how difficult it is for him to get us to compete under our transfer and wages strategy. It means not putting excessive aspirations about what he should achieve on his shoulders when I think under the circumstances they are unrealistic. It means calling on the owners to back him properly, to buy the players the manager actually wants.

For you that means not questioning our transfer policy one iota (that's the clubs I'm on about, NOT Jurgens). It means getting excited that we are trying to sign a 19 year old kid as our new left back cover/replacement for another left back who is the worst defender in the league. It means being uber optimistic that despite the fact seven teams finished above us last season, we can catch them up and overtake them by spending less money on wages and transfers, by generally only buying "potential".

Debs I hope you're right I really do. Just in case you're not though, and also as it's a forum where we're supposed to discuss stuff (it's kind of the point if there is one) I'll keep backing the manager in MY OWN WAY. At least that way you can be sure I won't turn on him if we don't do too well, and at least you'll know that if one day you come to the conclusion that "f*** me we need better players" you've got yourself a ready made ally.

I think you make some good points/arguments, but I think the idea that Jürgen wouldn't enjoy signing top players for big money kind of goes out the window with our interest/offers to/canoodling with Texiera, Gotze and Mane?

By the sounds of it, to get Mane we'll have to break our own transfer record, we were wiling to pay a pretty penny in the winter for Texiera (and got outbid) and we were willing to pay Gotze huge wages...so that seems to go against this narrative that Klopp ONLY wants to win/build with younger potential doesn't  it?

Nobody's saying he wouldn't mate, it's obvious with who he's tried getting that he would but to make out that he has to have them or that he can't achieve anything without them is also wrong when he's had clear success without having them previously.

If the policy is to remain then who better than him to make it work?  It's silly for folks to be writing his chances off when he's already made it work.

Not for the first time Debs I've read your post and cannot for the life of me fathom where in my stuff you've drawn the conclusions you've drawn. You've got a habit of picking me up on things in my posts which aren't actually there, it's a bit strange to be honest.

Here's a quick checklist of what I ACTUALLY think:


1. I think Jürgen should be backed to a much greater extent in the transfer market than it appears so far. Dahoud for example, if Jürgen wants him we should pay what it costs to get him.

2. I don't believe Jürgen will have had much idea who Ben Chilwell is until somebody pointed him in that direction. I think if Jürgen was genuinely looking for competition/a replacement for Moreno his first choice wouldn't be a 19 year old kid who hasn't played a league game.

3. I think if we give Jürgen the tools (proper ones, not that stuff from poundland which is no good for anything) he can build us a platform and win us many trophies. 

4. I'm not looking to "divide" anybody, I'm 100% behind the manager but about 8% behind the owners. I think they are c***s who are pulling the wool over the eyes of supporters.

5. I think the transfer committee arrangement and our recruitment/wages policy we have is bollocks. If it remains in place as it was, changing the manager/the bloke who takes the rap when it f***s up doesn't change the fact that it's bollocks. It is still bollocks whoever is in charge.

6. I think under these circumstances and given how much money our rivals are throwing at it, Jurgens task is impossible.

You can get some gome good stuff in poundland though.

Nobody's saying he wouldn't mate, it's obvious with who he's tried getting that he would but to make out that he has to have them or that he can't achieve anything without them is also wrong when he's had clear success without having them previously.

If the policy is to remain then who better than him to make it work?  It's silly for folks to be writing his chances off when he's already made it work.

For what it's worth, while I'm not writing off his chances, I do think it's going to be an uphill climb if we can't compete with the bigger spenders (those ahead of us in the table), especially without (for now) CL football. I do have faith that in Jürgen we have an ace in the hole that will help us close some of the gap that pure buying power can't. I just don't like that he gets characterized as someone that wouldn't want or doesn't want to employ and work with "proven" or "big time" players. Yes, ultimately he has a budget, set by FSG or set by himself (or someone) so he has to take that into account, but for me, backing him would  mean if he wants this LC kid, then just go pay and get him. If that's who Jürgen thinks is going to turn into the next big thing at LB, then he shouldn't worry about a few million bucks.

If he thinks this Dahoud guy is who he needs, then we should do whatever it takes to go and get him now....not wait for down the road when his club is more ready to sell...by that  time who knows....he may have better offers elsewhere.

Strike while the iron is hot. I think a lot of people are frustrated because it looked like we were going to do quick business and now we are back to the old Ian Ayre way of sit and wait and drag things out. I know it's only June....but other teams have done decent business already. I'm a bit impatient and I'm trying to curb that.....hopefully July 1 brings a whole slew of new toys for Jürgen to play with!

First of all Debs I didn't start a thread to divide anybody. I didn't start the thread at all in fact, I made a comment in the General Transfers discussion thread and it got moved over here by JD with a "new thread" heading. I was asking a "general transfers" question in the "general transfers" thread, NOT starting a thread and NOT trying to divide anyone (ask the mods if you don't believe me).

Secondly, concluding that "that's not backing him" by asking why we as a club don't give him funds to buy the players HE wants without putting age ceilings on top, re-sale values high on the priority list etc is bonkers. Just because he didn't spend lots of money at Dortmund (principally because they didn't have any, it wasn't a phylosophical stance) doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to spend proper money in a league where everyone else does surely?

Look, I think this is the best way me and you can not annoy each other going forward. Why don't we both back Jürgen "IN OUR OWN WAY"?


For me, that means pointing out how difficult it is for him to get us to compete under our transfer and wages strategy. It means not putting excessive aspirations about what he should achieve on his shoulders when I think under the circumstances they are unrealistic. It means calling n the owners to back him properly, to buy the players the manager actually wants.

For you that means not questioning our transfer policy (that's the clubs I'm on about, NOT Jurgens). It means getting excited that we are trying to sign a 19 year old kid as our new left back cover/replacement for another left back who is the worst defender in the league. It means being uber optimistic that despite the fact seven teams finished above us last season, we can catch them up and overtake them by spending less money on wages and transfers, by generally only buying "potential".

Debs I hope you're right I really do. Just in case you're not though, and also as it's a forum, I'll keep backing the manager in MY OWN WAY. At least that way you can be sureI won't turn on him if we don't do too well, and at least you'll know that if one day you come to the conclusion that "f*** me we need better players" you've got yourself a ready made ally.

You know what mate I've only myself to blame.

Back in Dec/Jan after being called some pretty nasty stuff on here for trying to remain positive amongst a deluge of negativity, I promised myself I'd leave you all to it and stop bothering.  It was effecting my health and wellbeing, like fighting against the tide or an immovable object, sadly it hasn't changed.

I'll leave you all to and concentrate my time on non footballing or non Liverpool topics in future.  Have a good summer and let's hope we're all celebrating next May regardless of transfers or spend.

I'm not getting involved in this debate my views are abundantly clear but just to clear up this point that keeps getting laboured:

"Jürgen would want to work with proven stars and pay big money and wages given the opportunity".

Why did he choose us over all the other opportunities he clearly would have had where he could have worked with ready made stars and paid a fortune in wages and fees for any player he wanted?

For an analogy of it I look at Jürgen much as I appreciate a self made millionaire against a person born into it, one just commands more respect and admiration for their efforts.

As for stating he never wants players of big fees and big wages, nobody ever said that from what I've seen. I've consistently said that he'd want one or two of them, but his preferred method of working is developing players. I believe he gets much more satisfaction in his role as a coach actually coaching players to be better. I think we all feel we could do a job given Barca's resources but doing what he did at Dortmund was exceptional and that's why he has my unshakable faith.

I'm not getting involved in this debate my views are abundantly clear but just to clear up this point that keeps getting laboured:

"Jürgen would want to work with proven stars and pay big money and wages given the opportunity".

Why did he choose us over all the other opportunities he clearly would have had where he could have worked with ready made stars and paid a fortune in wages and fees for any player he wanted?

For an analogy of it I look at Jürgen much as I appreciate a self made millionaire against a person born into it, one just commands more respect and admiration for their efforts.

As for stating he never wants players of big fees and big wages, nobody ever said that from what I've seen. I've consistently said that he'd want one or two of them, but his preferred method of working is developing players. I believe he gets much more satisfaction in his role as a coach actually coaching players to be better. I think we all feel we could do a job given Barca's resources but doing what he did at Dortmund was exceptional and that's why he has my unshakable faith.

I am quite sure if he wanted to last Summer when he left Dortmund he could have gone to Chelsea, United or City had he said the right words and whispered into the right ear.

Just don't think he is wired like that tbh.

I am quite sure if he wanted to last Summer when he left Dortmund he could have gone to Chelsea, United or City had he said the right words and whispered into the right ear.

Just don't think he is wired like that tbh.

Agreed.

He's obviously not that clever mate... he included you

 

I am quite sure if he wanted to last Summer when he left Dortmund he could have gone to Chelsea, United or City had he said the right words and whispered into the right ear.

Just don't think he is wired like that tbh.

Neither do I.

But I thought he had pull, as a WC manager to bring in established quality like Hummels or Reus etc.

Seems that is all forgotten about now. 

Neither do I.

But I thought he had pull, as a WC manager to bring in established quality like Hummels or Reus etc.

Seems that is all forgotten about now. 

I don't think we will never sign a world class player...however.

Lot of question marks along the back 4...(Sahko, Gomez, Moreno) so we may very well need a #3 CB & another back.

Lots of questions in the mid (Henderson, Allen)

Up front attacking players we are looking better...If he had his druthers and £150,000,000+ to spend then he might look/do things differently..that being said is all fluffy talk as he probably has around £65,000,000 to spend....Reus is £100,000,000 player it would be putting lipstick on a slightly good looking member of the Suidae family.

Now if we can get the issues sorted maybe just maybe when we need that final piece or two to turn the toad into the princess he will pull the trigger.

I'll start with Chilwell.  He may well have been recommended by the TC or he may have been recommended by his mate at Huddersfield or it may have been a bit of both.  You may well be right that Jürgen doesn't know anything about him but he is what he is looking for according to this today.  He doesn't want a replacement.

Liverpool are looking for a young left-back who will grow and develop under the guidance of Klopp.

The Reds have been heavily linked with FC Cologne’s Jonas Hector. However, the Germany international doesn’t fit that description and the ECHO understands he’s not being pursued.

You back him 100% but believe he's not being given the tools to do the job and have also stated quite clearly that he has an impossible job to achieve anything unless the owners back him with more money and better players than they appear to be giving him.  All this despite knowing full well that he has achieved amazing things by not spending loads of money.

Now to me that's not backing him, that's saying yeah he's great and we're lucky to have him but really he's never going to achieve anything unless he changes everything that's worked for him before.

Now for the not wanting to divide bit - you already know that some of us have absolute faith in his abilities and are excited and positive about what he can achieve in the coming seasons, then there are others who question if his ability will translate in the PL, that without top quality players, more top level experience and a lot of money he's got an impossible job (your words) to achieve anything much better than what we've had over the last 6 or 7 seasons.

If you didn't want to be divisive when you started the topic, why name it as one against the other,  instead of as I suggested, and you then agreed with btw, that they are working together?  After all the arguments about our recruitment are nothing new, they've been raging for nearly 6 years, they run into every different transfer target thread, the Managers thread and occasionally someone will resurrect the TCs own thread or the owners thread to post their opinions.

It was always going to be divisive because you made it that way when you started it. 

Jürgen is supposed to be a uniting factor within the fanbase, it's what he wants, it's what we need after all the turmoil of the last decade.  Everyone was ecstatic last October, apart from the odd miserable f**ker, and maybe some who expected him/us to achieve more than we did last seaosn feel a bit let down that we didn't. 

The division has grown on here since his arrival, we haven't united behind him, except when we win, we don't all believe in him or his past achievements.  Whether we agree with the owners policy or not, we have the best manager out their to implement it so why not just let him get on with it and see what happens, instead of deciding he can't do it before he's even tried.

Bingo.

Your post highlights why i'm sitting here with popcorn in hand. The thread is built to create "me vs you", "us vs them" and give evidence for future dick-swinging about who is right or not.

Childish, of course, but entertaining from a distance.

I'm not getting involved in this debate my views are abundantly clear but just to clear up this point that keeps getting laboured:

"Jürgen would want to work with proven stars and pay big money and wages given the opportunity".

Why did he choose us over all the other opportunities he clearly would have had where he could have worked with ready made stars and paid a fortune in wages and fees for any player he wanted?

For an analogy of it I look at Jürgen much as I appreciate a self made millionaire against a person born into it, one just commands more respect and admiration for their efforts.

Bingo.

I am quite sure if he wanted to last Summer when he left Dortmund he could have gone to Chelsea, United or City had he said the right words and whispered into the right ear.

Just don't think he is wired like that tbh.

Bingo.

Won't be long before the talking stops and the action starts

Bingo.

Your post highlights why i'm sitting here with popcorn in hand. The thread is built to create "me vs you", "us vs them" and give evidence for future dick-swinging about who is right or not.

Childish, of course, but entertaining from a distance.

Bingo.

Bingo.

At the end of the day, anyone that comes in is a Liverpool player regardless of who wanted them or who recommended them. What is important is whether they are good enough or not.

That said, the list of targets does not inspire confidence. It looks like they are buying for 2020 at a time when this club ought to be closing the gap to the main rivals, rivals who are more interested in buying players that can deliver from the onset. I have always thought it a good idea to buy three or four players that improve the first eleven each season rather than going the 7 or 8 player window that symbolizes summer purchase events at Melwood.