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      Central Mediocrity

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      Scottbot
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      Central Mediocrity
      Jul 17, 2016 12:02:36 am
      Centre midfield is without doubt my biggest worry going into next season and its been bothering me for some time. i really expected to see us bring in some quality but young Grukic all that has come in and although I know little about Zielinski, at 21 and having played his last two years in Italy it doesn't fill me with the greatest of confidence either.

      What bothers me about our Centre Middies is that they are all essentially the same player. To a man they are hard working, they like a tackle, they can all pass it a bit, none of them can really beat a man (Can can attack space which is different), none of them offers a goal threat. They all give regular 7/10 performances and perhaps every 4-5 games you might get an 8 or a 9 out of 10 from one of them. But it isn't enough, too many jack of all trades but master of none players.

      Emre Can - comfortably the most overrated player at the club for me. He can look superb in games where the opposition sit off and give him time and space. The home leg vs Villareal s the best example, he ran the show, short and long passing, put in a Stevie G style performance and looked a world beater. However, get in his face, reduce the time he has on the ball and get his head down and he struggles. He doesn't move the ball quickly enough and he doesn't have the quickest feet. Physically he doesn't have a bad top speed but he doesn't have the mobility or acceleration to cope when he is over run in midfield areas or we're playing a side that move the ball quickly. That isn't to say he hasn't improved in this area, he is fitter under Klopp and his work rate has improved considerably (he was a lazy fecker before). He has got a nice range of passing but he is still a million miles off Stevie in terms of passing ability and those barnstorming 50-60 yard runs he often made from the CB position under Rodgers, I think many of us assumed he would continue to make them from midfield but we didn't see many of them once he was moved back to his favoured midfield role, they dried up because there is less space in front of him playing further forward. As for his best position, what is it? Is he a DM? I think his physical limitations are an issue for him in this position. Is he a DLPM? I'm not sure he is a good enough passer tbh and his feet are slow.

      James Milner - brought in a Centre-middie and that's where he see himself. I think he would serve the club better if he assumed the Mr Versatility role he played so well at City. I like him a lot, runs his fookin ass off, delivered some pearler crosses, led the club in assists and chipped in with a few goals. BUT from centre mid I question his ball retention, It's not good enough, and I'd also question his positioning from a defensive aspect ie. He runs after the ball like a Lurcher who's just had it thrown for him. It's been a tough gig for Milner because at City he played with the likes of Silva, Nasri and Aguero, he wasn't asked to be the main man. At LFC he has had to try and assume that role but it isn't him. I'd happily see him plugging holes, wide right, wide left, right back, in the 10 shirt and a few stints in the middle.

      Jordan Henderson - I don't think he's good enough. Much like Milner at City we all loved him in 13-14, we had Suarez, Studge, Sterling and Coutinho to bring the magic so we could all appreciate what Henderson brought to the table which was a great work rate, some physicality, a top attitude, competitiveness and from time to time a nice pass or the odd goal. But now we've got Jordan masquerading as a Stevie shadow, taking corners, taking free kicks (both of which he is woeful at despite the fact he no doubt practices them for hours every week), trying to spray the ball on 40 yard diags (sometimes they come off but often they do not) and his shooting is simply terrible (he has a penchant for putting it straight at the keeper no matter where he shoots from) added to which he is the Skipper which was a bonkers decision in the first place and needs to be Undone asap in my opinion. I like him but once again, his really good performances are too far apart, it's not enough to shine once in every 6-7-8 games.

      Joe Allen - I really wanted us to sign him back when we did. Was a huge fan of his play at Swansea, he used to pick the ball up and travel with it, commit defenders and then shift it quickly. That all stopped the minute he got to LFC. Does his best work in games where both teams are pressing and there isn't so much room in midfield, has the quickest feet in our midfield and can move it quickly or turn out of trouble and release. Unfortunately the enormity and pressure of playing for the club seemed to get to Joe and he became a 'safe' player and it was only last season (off the bench) with Klopp often throwing him on in a more advanced position for Firmino or Lallana that we saw signs of the Swansea Joe Allen return. Despite a really strong Euros it looks like he may be on his way, I don't have. problem with it so long as he is replaced by someone better but I'm not so sure that will happen.

      Lucas - The legs have gone a bit with all the injuries he has suffered and I think it's almost certain someone will come in for him before the window closes, either back to Brazil, Italy or Turkey I should think. I still like him, he gives some balance and has bay far the best defensive instincts of all our CMs plus his experience makes him a great option off of the bench or as a makeshift CB but I'm sure the lad wants to start somewhere just as Joe Allen does. It's probably worth giving Stewart a mention as well because Jürgen has given him plenty of minutes, not good enough for me, Jay Spearing all over again, fits the theme of being solid but not nearly a high enough ceiling in terms of ability given the standards/aspirations of the club.

      So to summarise, they are all supporting cast for me, good number twos or threes but who is the main man? Who is gonna grab a game by the scruff of the neck on a regular basis? The answer is none of them. we've got work rate in abundance but where is the skill? Where is the passing ability? Where are the goals? Where is the craft and guille? I don't know the market so well but I was watching Marik Hamsek (not sure it's spelt like that) and he would be perfect (or a player like him). He can run with it, he scores goals, is a better passer than all of our lot but he's also a big strong lad who holds up in the tackle or shoulder to shoulder. We're desperate for a player like that to bring some balance to our midfield.

      If matip works out and the others can stay fit we look ok at CB. Up top IF (and it's a pretty big IF) Studge can stay fit and Origi can continue to develop we could be alright. In wide areas a LOT is riding on The success of the Mane transfer, if it does we might be alright. But it's the middle of the park where we most need some added quality. This kid Grukic looked good against League One opposition, he's big strong, looked to have some passing range and quick feet too BUT Bruno Cheyrou looked a world beater in pre-season.

      Surely Jürgen isn't happy going into the new season with the current players? I am worried that (for the most part) he is.
      « Last Edit: Jul 17, 2016 02:10:36 am by Scottbot »
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      FL Red
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #1: Jul 17, 2016 01:16:41 am
      Wow, great post Scott, best I've read on here in a long time and very much sums up how I view our midfield as well. I really think Grulic could be a coup for us but he's surely going to have ups and downs and like you said, who is the player like Stevie that's gong to grab the game and take charge of the whole thing. I just don't see one.
      harrydunn08
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #2: Jul 17, 2016 02:41:13 am
      Good post mate.  A few thoughts:

      You may think Can is overrated, but it seems apparent that he is the player Jürgen intends to build around.  He will be our holder / destroyer / pivot.  A new player will be bought to fill the box-to-box CM role -- Dahoud seems most likely at this moment. 

      Milner has never been a CM, and I can't see him getting many minutes there.  He does offer stability, work rate, and good service from the right side of midfield.  However, Klopp tends to prefer pace on the wing so I don't see many starting opportunities for Milner moving forward.  I like Milner, but will he be happy to take on the role of super sub?  Do we want one of our highest earners to be a super sub?  I won't be surprised if he decides to move clubs again in search of a team with a more defined starting role for him....

      While Hendo may not be up to the typically high Liverpool standards, he has been here for years and offers many of the attributes I think Klopp looks for in a CM.  I also think he is capable of filling in as a #6 or a #8.  For these reasons, and the fact he helps fill the homegrown quota, I believe he will stay. 

      I think both Allen and Lucas could be off this summer, altgough I'd like to retain Allen if possible as he is our only CM who is great at ball retention and keeping possession. 

      I think we will see one big money signing  (Dahoud) coming in to take the #8 role.  Hendo will be the primary backup to both Can and Dahoud and the 3 will rotate regularly to keep players fresh.  If we keep Allen then he may be able to oust Jordan as the preferred rotation player in midfield.  However, I won't be surprised if he opts to leave for a team where he is guaranteed a starting spot (same as Milner).

      Grujic had a great debut, but he is very young and needs to be given time to settle.  Expectations should remain in check.

      Top teams tend to need 4 reliable CB's.  With Sakho's injury problems and real questions regarding Gomez (will he fully recover) and Ilori (is he good enough), I personally think we need to sign another experienced CB, but it doest appear to be a priority for Jürgen right now.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #3: Jul 17, 2016 03:33:11 am
      To get the best out of our midfielders, we need to play a 3 instead of 2. Hendo, Allen and Milner work so much better playing as box-box'ing, same with Can, but in a less aggressive form.
      Lucas, our only specialist needs legs to support him, so having 2 midfielders along side him would be ideal, but when that happens, Allen, Hendo, Can and Milner aren't exactly your creative midfielders from central areas, so the balance would be an issue.

      Then you look at the passing/possession play, f**k me, this is the part that irritates me the most, especially when Lucas and Allen are not first teamers. We just can't shift the ball good enough and lack the awareness of our surroundings which I feel is partly the reason why we lose midfield so easily. 

      The midfield was always, and still is the main problem for me. Ask yourselves this, when was the last time we actually dominated that midfield on a regular basis? seriously, when? when we had the best midfield in the world, that's when. And the balance was perfect too.

      I really think not getting that specialist role right last few years has been key reason why we have been languishing where we have been in the league. For me, that position is the hub, and we get that #6 position right, we start gaining control of the midfield and steady the team imo. And i'll reiterate , Can is not the answer as Scottbot explained in his Can summary.


      Red John
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #4: Jul 17, 2016 01:48:04 pm
      Klopp once said that gegenpressing is the best playmaker. While I do agree with the most Scottbot's points in great OP, I think Klopp's vision is yet to have full implementation. That said I believe central mids performance is highly dependable on other players display, particularly in pressing stage. When all our 11 players on the pitch can constantly perform gegenpressing properly we could have very different picture of our midfielders IMO. From what I read and watch, system basics are not difficult to perform well, but it's pretty difficult to achieve sophisticated gegenpressing level which, for example, Dortmund displayed under Klopp.

      Can, Henderson, Allen, Lucas and Grujić are not world beaters but they can be a pretty effective group of players once we instill the system properly after Klopp's first full preseason IMO. They were not sh*t in every single game under Klopp and hopefully they will only get better, if not as individuals than as a group. Can is pretty young and he has good five or six years till he reach his peak. Henderson was pretty poor last season, but his performances were effected by injuries. I think he'll be better this season despite his limitations. Allen was superb in some games despite limited playing time. Lucas best days are behind him but we can use him sporadically in the games when we protect the result. From what I seen before he came to Liverpool Grujić can be great signing for us. Still early days for the lads though.

      Maybe I sound too optimistic but time will tell. Of course, I would like us to sign better players in the central mid but if we don't do that I trust Klopp to get absolute maximum from the players we have in our disposal at the moment. And that maximum is not as low as people seem to believe IMO.
      « Last Edit: Jul 17, 2016 02:28:04 pm by Red John »
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #5: Jul 17, 2016 02:18:19 pm
      I too have been concerned about our centre of midfield. I like Lucas. I think he is good at DM.

      the problem with Allen and Hendo is they are not cultured footballers. You have to be able to bring thd ball forward with control. Work it into positions where the midfield can support and provide cover. With those two it's like there is no plan, no craft. They seem ... Disconnected

      Can has athleticism but he isn't skilfull. He needs to work with players with real craft.
      I like Milner but hes better wide.

      If we had a Koke or a Gunsogan we would see the importance of midfield schemers .
      PastorGeek
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #6: Jul 17, 2016 04:41:21 pm
      We need a defensive midfielder. I wouldn't mind seeing Coutinho playing deeper like we did in 2013.



      lfc across the water
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #7: Jul 18, 2016 03:02:04 am
      Quote from Scottbot
      Surely Jürgen isn't happy going into the new season with the current players? I am worried that (for the most part) he is.

      When you don't qualify for Europe, you have to make do with whoever nobody else wants. As Jürgen is finding out.

      Generally, most of the decent players we've been looking for have other options available, and we haven't exactly been in bidding wars for the few signings we have made. Germans are not known for excessive spending or wasting money, but I fear that Mane could be another Benteke, and we can't afford any more of those.
      hoganov
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #8: Jul 18, 2016 12:59:58 pm
      Does anyone see Ryan Kent as a CM. Obviously the more advanced of a three. He has a bite in him can go past people good composure on the ball. I got this funny feeling he will feature a lot this season.
      American Red
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #9: Jul 18, 2016 02:15:19 pm
      This is an excellent post that highlights probably our biggest unknown/undefined conundrum at the moment. As you say all of our central midfielders (maybe with the exception of Lucas) are jack-of-all-trade players.

      Henderson and Milner are decent at essentially everything, but hardly great at anything.

      Allen is good at recycling possession, but again hardly great at anything and I don't think we can afford the luxury of having someone who can do that before we can work out the rest of our issues.

      Can is a decently talented player, but he gets flustered easily, and completely lacks tactical discipline and positional sense - not sold that we could go into the season having him as our first CM on the team-sheet.

      Grujic looks good in the limited time I've seen him, but again early signs point to him being more like Can than what we actually need, but he does seem to have a bit of a sharper mind and more composure this far.

      I believe that we are serious about two formations:

      1) 4-2-3-1: a 2-man defensive midfield, with a 3-man attacking midfield, and then a striker. This is the go-to for Klopp and fortunately is similar to what our players had become used to (although tactically they were thrown around in just about everything under the prior manager).

      What it takes to make this work is discipline, positional sense, and adequate communication from the 2 CDM's.

      Ideally, they would work it out as right and left and one of them would work themselves out as the holding midfielder who will sit just in front of the backline, probably biased a bit toward his side. Ideally you want someone with grit here, but also with great tactical and positioning sense and discipline along with concrete defensive capabilities. But given the 2-man system, he should be good on the ball, extremely responsible with his passing, capable of picking out long balls or spreading it wide, and even of the surprise run up field when the opportunity presents itself and when he's completely covered by the other midfielder. This is the heart of your team - consistent, responsible, necessary. Think De Rossi, Khedira (for the NT), Matic. Lucas would be our best current player for our role. Can has all the necessary attributes for it, great build, was solid as a CB, more than capable on the ball, but he completely lacks the brain to do it. If Klopp can install that into him and build a disciplined, intelligent player out of him then we could have a real gem on our hands. But again, not sure I'm sold on going into the season with him as our man there.

      The other is more of a ball-playing, box-to-box, all around type of role. This is where you would want your Gerrard, a jack-of-all-trades type of player, but whose actually great at just about everything, not just decent. They are the connection between your attack and the rest of the team, a goal threat from distance or through runs, responsible and constructive with his passing, disciplined and hardworking enough to get back into shape next to the other CDM when the opposition attacks. If the holding CDM is the heart, then this is your soul. Hendo, Milner, Allen, possibly Grujic would be our midfielders who can play here, but again I'm not sold that any of them are good enough to do it.

      If you want to see how this formation is supposed to look with these players, then I'd recommend watching Germany play and paying close attention to the Khedira-Kroos or Khedira-Schweinsteiger pairings in any game against any opposition. The first half against Slovakia in the Euro would probably be a good watch for it. Then go ahead and watch Can-Schweinsteiger in the match against France and note the differences. Or even in the 2011-12 season when Jürgen led them to Dortmund to league victory with mixes of Kehl, Bender, Sahin, Gundogan, and others making up that partnership.

      2) 4-1-2-1-2: a defensive specialist, 2-man central midfielders who work into the wider areas as well but mostly attempt to hold central, an attacking midfielder who stays central and feeds just under the forwards, and 2 strikers up top.

      What it takes to make this work is an extremely disciplined specialist as your #6 player in the CDM role who sits just in front of the backline. Then two central midfielders who are well communicated, situated on their sides and in their roles, and capable of adapting to whatever the game situation calls for. Ideally, one of them can be more attacking-minded with an eye for creativity and goal-scoring while also supporting the CAM, while the other is more focused on box-to-box duties, recycling possession, helping everyone around the pitch, keeping things ticking smoothly, and controlling the overall tempo of the game through his actions.

      The #6 needs a sharp mind, talented defensively, decent on the ball, intelligent positioning to break down attacks before they arrive, and the ability to mark man-to-man wisely when the situation is called upon, but otherwise lock down his zone in front of the back four. Think Masch, Busquets, Kante, and many more. As it stands, we've got Lucas who could do a job here but not sure he's got the legs for it. Emre can also fill here if needed, but would be contingent on what was said above for him to become good at it. I think Matip or Joe Gomez also would excel in this role to be honest, and as it stands I think if fit I'd have one of them there in this formation above others.

      Then there's the two other midfielders. Your box-to-box, tempo-controlling CM should be intelligent, jack-of-all-trades, efficient on the ball, and fully capable of controlling the game while contributing to just about everything. He usually puts in a consistently good display, but tends to fall under the radar of people who (frankly IMO) don't fully understand this position or it's importance to the game. Here I would say to think Xabi Alonso, Xavi, and Joao Moutinho. Hate to say it, but I think Joe Allen might just be the best we've got in this dedicated role. Hendo, Milner, and possibly Grujic could all possibly play here, but again not so sold on any of them there.

      Finally there's the more free-playing, creative, licensed to do anything CM. Ideally could do everything really well, especially his attacking duties. A good shot on his boots, smart and constructive passer on the ball, makes great surging runs, and has a bit of grit about him when getting into tackles. Here I'd say to think of Gerrard, Iniesta, or Fabregas back in his better days. Again here I think we could use Hendo or Milner. Maybe Firmino could even do a job here if he was committed to learning the role.

      Looking more into this type of play in this particular, I'd say you could find a great commitment and tactical usage of this from Portugal in the most recent Euro with Danilo or William Carvalho in the #6, Joao Moutinho or Adrien in the tempo-controlling CM, and then Renato/Joao Mario switching in and out in the other role and the CAM. If you're interested in how those three player types work together in a midfield, but not necessarily in this formation, watch us in the Masch-Xabi-Stevie days or go watch Spain or Barcelona with Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta.

      There's a lot of work to be done before we get to where we need to be. I don't think we've got the set personnel to succeed as of right now in our central midfield. Too many like players and nobody who has shown to be outstanding in any particular role. Being said, I think Klopp can potentially do a job in taking our current players and molding them into these specific roles and producing something special out of it. He did it in 2011/12, Fernando Santos and Chris Coleman did it in this Euro, and many other managers have done it in the past as well. What it boils down to simply is that there is a lot of work to be done, but whether the work is done on the training ground or in the transfer market is what will be interesting to see.
      The Real Donavan Ried
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #10: Jul 18, 2016 02:53:46 pm
      With Joe Allen going (the wrong player in my opinion) we show be looking to get rid of Henderson or Milner now, or both, Think we have enough in our youth players to fill the rolls if need be
      mcarz
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #11: Jul 18, 2016 03:20:17 pm
      With Joe Allen going (the wrong player in my opinion) we show be looking to get rid of Henderson or Milner now, or both, Think we have enough in our youth players to fill the rolls if need be

      Don't be silly!
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #12: Jul 18, 2016 03:36:25 pm

      Is he? Can, Allen and Grujic are predominantly better as secondary midfielders, then you have Brannagan who has looked good in pre season and really should be in and around the first team squad now. With Lucas added into the equation, we'll have 5 midfielders fighting for 2 spots. If we go down the 3 man midfield, how about Coutinho? and talks of Wijnaldum incoming, 7 players capable of playing there.

      Right attack, we'll have Firmino, Mane & Lallana with Ings and Origi filling in if necessary.

      We should be shifting either, Allen/Hendo and Milner , especially if Wijnaldum comes in.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #13: Jul 18, 2016 04:11:23 pm
      Is he? Can, Allen and Grujic are predominantly better as secondary midfielders, then you have Brannagan who has looked good in pre season and really should be in and around the first team squad now. With Lucas added into the equation, we'll have 5 midfielders fighting for 2 spots. If we go down the 3 man midfield, how about Coutinho? and talks of Wijnaldum incoming, 7 players capable of playing there.

      Right attack, we'll have Firmino, Mane & Lallana with Ings and Origi filling in if necessary.

      We should be shifting either, Allen/Hendo and Milner , especially if Wijnaldum comes in.

      I understand what you are saying here, and the logic of it. Serious question: Do you think it is likely for either Henderson or Milner to leave this preseason? Just the execution of it is what makes this seem unlikely to me.

      Another question; Is if for certainly that Wijnaldum would be playing behind the striker as part of a front four? Someone mention he had played central mid at PSV. Is that possibly the idea behind this move?

      (Part of the problem there is definitions of "central mid." I usually think of that as box-to-box rather than defensive (windscreen wiper) or attacking (#8 or #10).
      HScRed1
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #14: Jul 18, 2016 04:16:03 pm
      Is he? Can, Allen and Grujic are predominantly better as secondary midfielders, then you have Brannagan who has looked good in pre season and really should be in and around the first team squad now. With Lucas added into the equation, we'll have 5 midfielders fighting for 2 spots. If we go down the 3 man midfield, how about Coutinho? and talks of Wijnaldum incoming, 7 players capable of playing there.

      Right attack, we'll have Firmino, Mane & Lallana with Ings and Origi filling in if necessary.

      We should be shifting either, Allen/Hendo and Milner , especially if Wijnaldum comes in.

      Allen and Lucas will be gone.

      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #15: Jul 18, 2016 04:53:40 pm
      Do you think it is likely for either Henderson or Milner to leave this preseason? Just the execution of it is what makes this seem unlikely to me.

      I don't think both will leave, and as mentioned by HScRed1, it is more likely to be Lucas and Allen don't you think?

      Another question; Is if for certainly that Wijnaldum would be playing behind the striker as part of a front four? Someone mention he had played central mid at PSV. Is that possibly the idea behind this move?

      I suspect Wijnaldum will play in the midfield 2 with Can, that or midfield 3 with Can and Hendo/Grujic? I just can't see Klopp wanting Wijnaldum for that #10 role, surely we have better in Firmino, Coutinho, Mane and perhaps Lallana?

      (Part of the problem there is definitions of "central mid." I usually think of that as box-to-box rather than defensive (windscreen wiper) or attacking (#8 or #10).

      My definition of central mid is the same as yours :) I think Can is a less aggressive box-boxer, where as the likes of Allen, Hendo and Milner are the more so. I would actually put Can in the Toure/Vieira midfield category.
      The Real Donavan Ried
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #16: Jul 18, 2016 05:31:01 pm
      YEAH!!! What PurpleMonkey said! :action-smiley-035:
      Robby The Z
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #17: Jul 18, 2016 05:39:39 pm
      I don't think both will leave, and as mentioned by HScRed1, it is more likely to be Lucas and Allen don't you think?

      I suspect Wijnaldum will play in the midfield 2 with Can, that or midfield 3 with Can and Hendo/Grujic? I just can't see Klopp wanting Wijnaldum for that #10 role, surely we have better in Firmino, Coutinho, Mane and perhaps Lallana?

      My definition of central mid is the same as yours :) I think Can is a less aggressive box-boxer, where as the likes of Allen, Hendo and Milner are the more so. I would actually put Can in the Toure/Vieira midfield category.

      I agree Allen and Lucas are more likely to go, although I think of those two, Lucas is more likely to stay as he is probably more willing to be a substitute while Allen will want to be a first-choice player somewhere.

      If we use Wijnaldum in the advanced role of a 3-man midfield, that of course will challenge the role/playing time of someone, maybe  Firminho. I suppose any new addition is going to challenge someone's playing time.
      The Real Donavan Ried
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #18: Jul 18, 2016 05:43:22 pm
      I would argue that both Allen and Lucas (when given the chance) have been better than both Henderson and Milner this season, and before anyone starts with assist, I once called for LFC to sign Carlos Tevez before he when to City, people were saying then that he does not score enough, and his assist are low... Pointed out then what how many times has he won the ball that started the attack that lead to the goal... Allen may have less assist than milner or Henderson, but both He and Lucas links play better than Milner and Henderson which leads to more chances on goal that the other two... In my opinion we are selling the wrong two, or rather Hendo and milner should have been the first out of the four of them to go
      HScRed1
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #19: Jul 18, 2016 06:05:06 pm
      I would argue that both Allen and Lucas (when given the chance) have been better than both Henderson and Milner this season, and before anyone starts with assist, I once called for LFC to sign Carlos Tevez before he when to City, people were saying then that he does not score enough, and his assist are low... Pointed out then what how many times has he won the ball that started the attack that lead to the goal... Allen may have less assist than milner or Henderson, but both He and Lucas links play better than Milner and Henderson which leads to more chances on goal that the other two... In my opinion we are selling the wrong two, or rather Hendo and milner should have been the first out of the four of them to go


      I'm no big fan of Milner or Henderson but that's just nonsense how have Allen and Lucas been better.

      They barely got a game in the second half of the season and that was over a one legged Henderson!

      You seem to forget its goals and assists which win games irrelevant of linking up play which in Allens case is usually sideways.
      American Red
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #20: Jul 18, 2016 06:43:02 pm

      I'm no big fan of Milner or Henderson but that's just nonsense how have Allen and Lucas been better.

      They barely got a game in the second half of the season and that was over a one legged Henderson!

      You seem to forget its goals and assists which win games irrelevant of linking up play which in Allens case is usually sideways.

      Don't judge a central midfielder's importance to the team based on their goals and assists. In their position's case, linking up play can be significantly more important than scoring or directly assisting.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #21: Jul 18, 2016 07:34:27 pm
      Don't judge a central midfielder's importance to the team based on their goals and assists. In their position's case, linking up play can be significantly more important than scoring or directly assisting.

      For a DM you might have a point but as a CM sorry but you need output otherwise you end up with players like Allen who don't actually offer much at all.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Central Mediocrity
      Reply #22: Jul 18, 2016 08:04:46 pm
      You may think Can is overrated, but it seems apparent that he is the player Jürgen intends to build around.  He will be our holder / destroyer / pivot.  A new player will be bought to fill the box-to-box CM role -- Dahoud seems most likely at this moment.

      I think you are probably right mate, he was certainly an ever present under Jürgen last year and I think he likes, certainly more than I do! It's that I don't think he necessarily fits the bill of the three terms you have used; holder, destroyer or pivot. He can certainly play the holding role but I don't think his defensive instincts and nack for arriving at the right place at the right time is nearly as good as Lucas (not that i'm saying Lucas is the answer either), for me he doesn't have the mobility or short speed to be a destroyer such as Mascherano or Sissoko did for us a few years back and a player like Kante did so wonderfully at Leicester last season. And as a pivot yes he can pick the ball off of the centre-halves and pick a nice pass from time to time but when I hear the word pivot I think Xabi Alonso and he is simply light years away from that level. Of course he is still relatively young at 21/22 and he will continue to improve  but I get the impression he has number 1 status (amongst our CMs) and I don't think he 's good enough.

       
      If you want to see how this formation is supposed to look with these players, then I'd recommend watching Germany play and paying close attention to the Khedira-Kroos or Khedira-Schweinsteiger pairings in any game against any opposition. The first half against Slovakia in the Euro would probably be a good watch for it. Then go ahead and watch Can-Schweinsteiger in the match against France and note the differences. Or even in the 2011-12 season when Jürgen led them to Dortmund to league victory with mixes of Kehl, Bender, Sahin, Gundogan, and others making up that partnership

      That's a good shout on Germany, they play with two very cultured players in those two deep-lying midfield positions. Of our current midfield line up i'd say the closest we have would be to play a Can/Allen partnership but it doesn't quite measure up does it?? My worry for us if we play with a 2 in the middle (using our current options) is that we'll be found wanting when the players ahead of them aren't on their game (or can't get into it). For all their abilities Firmino and Coutinho are both capable of going missing in certain games and when that happens our lack of creativity and goal threat from midfield really shows up.

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