Central Mediocrity

If there is one player who looks like he could lift the quality of our midfield it is this kid! Not everything he tries comes off but what an exciting talent young Ejaria is. Fed getting a bit of grief I the player for suggesting this lad should come in ahead of the likes of Henderson and Milner but he looks a hell of a prospect. Fantastically quick feet and a terrific first touch, he is strong with his back to goal and he can dribble. He also looks a tidy passer who is looking to play the ball forward. I don't know if the lad can tackle or win a header yet because he hasn't been properly tested but I would love to see him in our first team squad and would fancy him to force his way into the managers plans if he continues to play as he has in these first couple of pre-season outings. Here is his latest outing Vs Wigan. I haven't been this excited about a player since Sterling was first coming through.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFgJBLqgkY8

For a DM you might have a point but as a CM sorry but you need output otherwise you end up with players like Allen who don't actually offer much at all.

Xavi Hernandez throughout his entire career averaged a goal or assist every 0.33 games.
Cesc Fabregas throughout his entire career average a goal or assist every 0.54 games.
Andrea Pirlo was 0.22 for the same statistic.
Clarence Seedorf was 0.23.
Steven Gerrard was 0.41 (keep in mind that he played regularly as a very high AM/almost CF just under the striker for a while).

Knowing that they were all consistently CM's, who do you think of those players would actually have the lowest impact in your team? If you don't say Fabregas, then I'd have to be inclined to believe that you have never watched the others of them play. There are dozens of examples that can continue to prove this point. A CM who can dictate the tempo of the game, recycle possession constructively, and get the ball into the feet of the creative and/or lethal players for them to do the attacking work is capable of being much more valuable than ones who offer goals and assists.

Not saying Joe Allen is a great player or someone who we absolutely need to have in our lineup by any means, just making the point that goals and assists are not necessarily indicative of a truly great CM and I think you'd be mistaken to use that as part of your criteria for trying to find one if you were a scout.

Xavi Hernandez throughout his entire career averaged a goal or assist every 0.33 games.
Cesc Fabregas throughout his entire career average a goal or assist every 0.54 games.
Andrea Pirlo was 0.22 for the same statistic.
Clarence Seedorf was 0.23.
Steven Gerrard was 0.41 (keep in mind that he played regularly as a very high AM/almost CF just under the striker for a while).

Knowing that they were all consistently CM's, who do you think of those players would actually have the lowest impact in your team? If you don't say Fabregas, then I'd have to be inclined to believe that you have never watched the others of them play. There are dozens of examples that can continue to prove this point. A CM who can dictate the tempo of the game, recycle possession constructively, and get the ball into the feet of the creative and/or lethal players for them to do the attacking work is capable of being much more valuable than ones who offer goals and assists.

Not saying Joe Allen is a great player or someone who we absolutely need to have in our lineup by any means, just making the point that goals and assists are not necessarily indicative of a truly great CM and I think you'd be mistaken to use that as part of your criteria for trying to find one if you were a scout.

All had sensational passing ability/ability to control and consistently make decisive contributions to the team, not in equal amounts or in the same way, but that's what we're missing.

 Totally agree with the OP. We need a top class midfielder -- too many "middling" sort of options there atm, and none in the class of Gerrard, Alonso and Masch, never mind Xavi and Seedorf.

Emre Can - comfortably the most overrated player at the club for me. He can look superb in games where the opposition sit off and give him time and space. The home leg vs Villareal s the best example, he ran the show, short and long passing, put in a Stevie G style performance and looked a world beater. However, get in his face, reduce the time he has on the ball and get his head down and he struggles. He doesn't move the ball quickly enough and he doesn't have the quickest feet. Physically he doesn't have a bad top speed but he doesn't have the mobility or acceleration to cope when he is over run in midfield areas or we're playing a side that move the ball quickly. That isn't to say he hasn't improved in this area, he is fitter under Klopp and his work rate has improved considerably (he was a lazy fecker before). He has got a nice range of passing but he is still a million miles off Stevie in terms of passing ability and those barnstorming 50-60 yard runs he often made from the CB position under Rodgers, I think many of us assumed he would continue to make them from midfield but we didn't see many of them once he was moved back to his favoured midfield role, they dried up because there is less space in front of him playing further forward. As for his best position, what is it? Is he a DM? I think his physical limitations are an issue for him in this position. Is he a DLPM? I'm not sure he is a good enough passer tbh and his feet are slow.

Its interesting u said that about Can, i said something similar in feb 2015 and got roasted for it.

I think Can is too "one footed" for that role in the centre. Like Magillionare said he'll have less time on the ball in there. Might struggle like Gerrard did when teams focus on pressurizing him. Personally I really like him as a CB. But thats just my opinion.

Let me just say i think Can is a great prospect. I'm not saying hes crap

Every player has a 'preferred foot', but Can mostly controls and passes with the same foot. He rarely uses his other foot for anything unless extremely necessary.

Look up any 'Emre Can' match video you will see what I'm talking about.

This is ok at CB but in the DM position it will possibly cause problems when better players/teams focus on him and put him under pressure immediately (like they did stevie at the beginning of this season) he wont have the space or time like he does at the back.

If you compare it to Gerrard or Lucas or even Allen, who are a bit more nimble. They can accept the ball/control/pass it with their 'less preferred foot' when necessary.

Im not saying to put him down! He's a very good player. He's also very young and it can still be coached out of him. But in a league where wins and defeats are decided by such fine margins. Against better teams that try to nullify our source of distribution, if he's just using 1 foot most of the time it may be problematic.

But hey, im no expert, i might be wrong. I assume we will eventually see when Rodgers plays him there at some point in the future...

Personally i think we should make him a CB. He's still young and would be Epic there if he learns how to defend.

Xavi Hernandez throughout his entire career averaged a goal or assist every 0.33 games.
Cesc Fabregas throughout his entire career average a goal or assist every 0.54 games.
Andrea Pirlo was 0.22 for the same statistic.
Clarence Seedorf was 0.23.
Steven Gerrard was 0.41 (keep in mind that he played regularly as a very high AM/almost CF just under the striker for a while).

Knowing that they were all consistently CM's, who do you think of those players would actually have the lowest impact in your team? If you don't say Fabregas, then I'd have to be inclined to believe that you have never watched the others of them play. There are dozens of examples that can continue to prove this point. A CM who can dictate the tempo of the game, recycle possession constructively, and get the ball into the feet of the creative and/or lethal players for them to do the attacking work is capable of being much more valuable than ones who offer goals and assists.

Not saying Joe Allen is a great player or someone who we absolutely need to have in our lineup by any means, just making the point that goals and assists are not necessarily indicative of a truly great CM and I think you'd be mistaken to use that as part of your criteria for trying to find one if you were a scout.

Your comparing the players at the top with Allen? and then you mention all the attributes that Allen has never shown apart from recycling the ball sideways!

I think you would be shocked at just how highly goals and assists are prized by coaches     Jürgen seems to be placing a higher priority on goals from midfield than maybe your definition of what is most important.

I'm no big fan of Milner or Henderson but that's just nonsense how have Allen and Lucas been better.

They barely got a game in the second half of the season and that was over a one legged Henderson!

You seem to forget its goals and assists which win games irrelevant of linking up play which in Allens case is usually sideways.

The team looks more balanced, has a carry a greater goal threat when Allen plays, and milner and Henderson have give the ball away uncountable times during the season, and fail to make simple passes in games without the ball being intercepted even when under no pressure 

The team looks more balanced, has a carry a greater goal threat when Allen plays, and milner and Henderson have give the ball away uncountable times during the season, and fail to make simple passes in games without the ball being intercepted even when under no pressure 

The stats don't back up your claims.

You seem to forget its goals and assists which win games irrelevant of linking up play which in Allens case is usually sideways.

Think I addressed this when referring to Carlos Tevez... Assist only means that you had some sort of contact with the ball before the goal scorer netted it... Could have hit you on the back of the head.... Allen intercepts the goal on the edge of our goal area, beats five men,get to the edge of thier goal area plays the ball to Sturridge It hit the back of Milner's heel drops to Firmino who hammers it home.... who played the greater part in the goal?... Allen or Milner?.... Allen, but who gets the assist?

The stats don't back up your claims.

Sorry mate. slow on the keyboard.... Stats don't always tell the truth, and can be made to tell something completely different at that

Sorry mate. slow on the keyboard.... Stats don't always tell the truth, and can be made to tell something completely different at that

Pretty simple do we win more games with Henderson and Milner compared to when Allen has started?

Sorry mate. slow on the keyboard.... Stats don't always tell the truth, and can be made to tell something completely different at that

Could not agree more. Stats mean F**k all in judging players. I wonder what Leicester's players stats were back in 2015/16 season, how about our season when we came second or Chelsea's title winning season? Then compare them to the season after.

End of the day, it's about getting that right setup for our players, and in doing so, we would see the best in the likes of Allen, Can, Hendo etc.

i feel like if we had an actual real holding player. We'd see better performances from Henderson, Allen, Lucas, (maybe Can further forward) and even Coutinho in the CM roles.

Your comparing the players at the top with Allen? and then you mention all the attributes that Allen has never shown apart from recycling the ball sideways!

I think you would be shocked at just how highly goals and assists are prized by coaches     Jürgen seems to be placing a higher priority on goals from midfield than maybe your definition of what is most important.

I wasn't comparing any of them to Allen. He had nothing to do with my point at all. It was simply that goals and assists are not what makes a CM world class and I attempted to prove that point by comparing goals and assists ratios per game amongst players.

A great CM possesses the ball wisely and constructively, makes defensive plays, links the team, and controls the tempo. A great attacking midfielder or winger creates goals with assists. A great forward scored goals. Goals or assists from a CM certainly don't hurt, but it absolutely is not a necessary attribute of that position. I also don't think that Klopp thinks that's necessary. If he did, I don't think he'd have relied on Kehl, Bender, Sahin, and Gundogan for those CM roles in his successful years at Dortmund (the highest ratio there was Gundogan with 0.22/game). But I'm perfectly satisfied with agreeing to disagree on the point though.

i feel like if we had an actual real holding player. We'd see better performances from Henderson, Allen, Lucas, (maybe Can further forward) and even Coutinho in the CM roles.

The whole front 3 press as a unit under Klopp hence why we have never been linked with a Masch type of destroyer who goes out looking to break up play.

The signing of Wijaldum suggests Klopp will intensify the all out attack looking to press and counter press even more relentlessly than last season hence the extra legs brought in as reinforcement.

I wasn't comparing any of them to Allen. He had nothing to do with my point at all. It was simply that goals and assists are not what makes a CM world class and I attempted to prove that point by comparing goals and assists ratios per game amongst players.

A great CM possesses the ball wisely and constructively, makes defensive plays, links the team, and controls the tempo. A great attacking midfielder or winger creates goals with assists. A great forward scored goals. Goals or assists from a CM certainly don't hurt, but it absolutely is not a necessary attribute of that position. I also don't think that Klopp thinks that's necessary. If he did, I don't think he'd have relied on Kehl, Bender, Sahin, and Gundogan for those CM roles in his successful years at Dortmund (the highest ratio there was Gundogan with 0.22/game). But I'm perfectly satisfied with agreeing to disagree on the point though.

 

Our midfield is awful. 

Milner/Henderson/Lucas/Allen etc doesn't exactly frighten any opposition.

Even Can, who I rate, was rather mediocre last season.

At best, they're all very inconsistent.

We could do with three new starting CMs.

We probably won't even get one.

Our midfield is awful. 

Milner/Henderson/Lucas/Allen etc doesn't exactly frighten any opposition.

Even Can, who I rate, was rather mediocre last season.

At best, they're all very inconsistent.

We could do with three new starting CMs.

We probably won't even get one.

It's a worry alright.

Here's me pinning my hopes on a lanky 20 yr old fresh out of the Eastern Bloc.

Pretty simple do we win more games with Henderson and Milner compared to when Allen has started?

I don't know, but I have seen enough games last season where we have struggled to break teams down, and when Allen has entered the fray we have broken them teams down easier... Have we won them all?... No The Games we have lose or drawn when Allen had take no part , would we have won them?... I don't know. But on the evidence of what I have seen we play better with Allen on the field than off the field, and with Allen and Lucas as apposed to Henderson and Milner

i feel like if we had an actual real holding player. We'd see better performances from Henderson, Allen, Lucas, (maybe Can further forward) and even Coutinho in the CM roles.

FUNNY (Must proof read.must proof read) you should mention that, My nephew, a ardent Liverpool supporter believe that Can would be a better holding midfield player than a attacking Midfield player, and some of what I have seen seems to back that up to some degree

The whole front 3 press as a unit under Klopp hence why we have never been linked with a Masch type of destroyer who goes out looking to break up play.

The signing of Wijaldum suggests Klopp will intensify the all out attack looking to press and counter press even more relentlessly than last season hence the extra legs brought in as reinforcement.

You have a very good point there

Found you should mention that, My nephew, a ardent Liverpool supporter believe that Can would be a better holding midfield player than a attacking Midfield player, and some of what I have seen seems to back that up to some degree

Can isn't the problem, it's who Can plays next to that is. Whether it's holding or attacking is besides the point, the problem is that he's usually playing next to someone who has very little more in the way of experience than he does. Slot him alongside a Gerrard or a Hamann and you'd not only see a different Can but Can himself as a player would become better because he'd learn more. It's an inherent problem throughout the squad. It's all very well bringing in highly talented young players but without seasoned veterans to learn from they can never realise their full potential.

Can isn't the problem, it's who Can plays next to that is. Whether it's holding or attacking is besides the point, the problem is that he's usually playing next to someone who has very little more in the way of experience than he does. Slot him alongside a Gerrard or a Hamann and you'd not only see a different Can but Can himself as a player would become better because he'd learn more. It's an inherent problem throughout the squad. It's all very well bringing in highly talented young players but without seasoned veterans to learn from they can never realise their full potential.

You could say the same about Hendo , Allen or Milner. Say we bought Krychowiak, I'm almost certain it would improve those players (+ Can of course).

You could say the same about Hendo , Allen or Milner. Say we bought Krychowiak, I'm almost certain it would improve those players (+ Can of course).

I agree, that's why I said it's an inherent problem. I only mentioned Can in particular because he was mentioned in the quoted post but you're absolutely correct in that the same applies to all our midfield, and our defence. Are Lovren or Sakho really experienced enough? Wouldn't one of them benefit from playing alongside a Hyypia just as Carragher did? You could argue that Gerrard and Carragher only reached the heights they did by playing next to those players. It's the fundamental missing ingredient in our squad.