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      Q. LFC Man of the Match?

      Simon Mignolet
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      Nathaniel Clyne
      0 (0%)
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      1 (1.6%)
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      Voting closed: Aug 24, 2016 05:06:57 pm

      Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate

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      sore monad
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #644: Aug 21, 2016 01:59:29 pm
      Only saw highlights on MOTD so can't really say about the game as a whole. From the stats looked like we bossed it, but obviously no cutting edge plus 2 dire bits of defending.

      The second was worse than the first for me. 3 different players going in weakly in the tackle, really poor.

      I'd have liked us to go in for somebody like Kante to give us a true DM, but with Grujic coming in, and Jürgen obviously wanting to try Wijnaldum in CM we have quite a few different options in CM to try out. If you can get 2 good all round CM's then you dont necessarily need a specialist DM. This looks like its what Jürgen is going for and we need to give it a bit of time to see if he can find a combo that works in that area. Hendo on his own is not going to give enough protection I dont think.

      With the players we've got I think 4-2-3-1 looks better than 4-3-3. The latter seems to be Jürgen's plan B formation, but he may have to stick with plan A.

      Also, was Firmino playing up top and Sturridge wide right? I really don't get playing Firmino as a striker. Play Sturridge or Origi or Ings there. Actual strikers.
      friedeggden
      • Forum Ian Callaghan
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #645: Aug 21, 2016 02:08:25 pm
      Also, was Firmino playing up top and Sturridge wide right? I really don't get playing Firmino as a striker. Play Sturridge or Origi or Ings there. Actual strikers.

      Yep. F**k knows why
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #646: Aug 21, 2016 03:10:30 pm
      Also, was Firmino playing up top and Sturridge wide right? I really don't get playing Firmino as a striker. Play Sturridge or Origi or Ings there. Actual strikers.

      Yes and for me he was our most effective player at his role in the team. Unfortunately as a striker in a team that plays that deep you need help. I'm not saying he played well but he actually made the runs that gave space to others. Sturridge dropping into midfield constantly just meant there were more defenders to deal with those runs. Sturridge, playing wide right had to get in and beyond their defenders as did our offensive midfielders.

      We just didn't function well and I thought Sturridge was a much bigger problem, granted not in his natural position, than Firmino was. I've seen it mentioned above that Sturridge is a better mover, not even close. Firmino does not stop moving, he does not stop looking for a pass. The same with Phil, part of our strategy is to get him clear goal scoring chances cutting in from the left, he had those, he just didn't execute as well as he can. That part of our 'plan' worked to present him with the chances but it wasn't enough with the rest of our offensive game so far from where it needs to be.

      It got to the point that Burnley were giving Milner 15 yards of clear space when on the wing because he was so ineffective at crossing, a large problem with that is in Coutinho we didn't have a player who ran into the box, in Lallana again another that prefers to operate on the edge and Wijnaldum who I'm not totally sure what his role was in the team. So when you're crossing to Firmino and Sturridge (occasionally) against 6 or 7 defenders then the odds are those crosses are not going to be effective.

      Jürgen took far too long to change this though, we needed Moreno, someone with the pace to go beyond and naturally on the left side to get in behind. Milner was a poor choice for this game and it might spark some movement in the market because Milner's strength is meant to be more in the offensive side of the game if he is to be at LB and today proved he just isn't comfortable enough there.

      Moving forward I think Jürgen needs to address 2 key areas and both are in central midfield, the balance there is abysmal right now. It was the one area of the pitch I was most concerned with after last season and if Wijnaldum and Henderson are Jürgen's answer then I'm not convinced with it. If it's that Emre is just returning to match fitness, which I suspect, and Grujic is just getting up to speed then I'm more hopeful.

      A 3 of Can, Grujic, Wijnaldum (playing Lallana's role) and I'd be much happier with that balance.
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #647: Aug 21, 2016 03:28:08 pm
      Hendo and Lallana ahead of Grujic? ******** Joke. What is Mignolet even still doing here? He is not fit to be #2. Why won't Klopp understand he should not be at Liverpool end of story.

      Erm....Karius is injured, hence why Mig is starting.
      Gongfarmer
      • Forum Phil Babb
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #648: Aug 21, 2016 04:36:31 pm
      I was reading on a Newcastle forum when Wijnaldum was being sold that many on there said he goes missing at away games. To be fair they where not having a big go at him, just a football supporters observations, and they usually know there football up there.

      Got to say, he didn't make an impression yesterday, maybe another one to play home games only?
      The Kopite91
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #649: Aug 21, 2016 05:02:48 pm
      I finally feel ready to talk about the debacle that was yesterday. But where do you start!? Usually in these sort of games it's one or two individuals that sum up the day and are ready made scape goats, but there genuinely isn't a single Liverpool player that can come out of that with any credit. First and foremost, full credit to Burnley, that was a very professional performance, they had to work very hard to keep their shape defend like that for 90 mins, I know it is frustrating for us but if we could defend half as well as they can then we wouldn't be so frustrated. And whether we like it or not there's another 4/5 teams that are going to look to do that to us this season.

      I haven't read this thread as the whole reason I wait to post in here is to allow everyone time to calm down. But I imagine the Mignolet debate rages on, the defence have given him next to no help but to concede 5 goals from 5 shots on target is nowhere near good enough. And although there are obvious worries about Karius' starting position higher up the field, that at least pushes the rest of the team 10-15 yards further up and you would like to think we're not leaving ourselves in the situation we find ourselves in for Vokes goal and Walcott's last weekend.

      The back four don't exactly shower themselves in glory. Clyne, Lovren and Klavan all get caught out for their goals, Milner had next to nothing to do defence wise but going forward he was as one dimensional as the rest of the team.

      The countless side ways passing between the defence and the mid field was frustrating after 30 mins, but to spend the last 10 mins knocking it around as if we were seeing out the game was a joke! It epitomised the whole performance, clueless and completely out of ideas with no one willing to step up and force the issue. Pass it to the next man and hope he will take responsibility. I have to take particular issue with Henderson here, I said in the pre match thread that he is the best man we have to spray the ball and switch the play and all I seen were 5 yard side ways passes. And I also have an issue with his captains performance. I'm not expecting a Gerrard superhero performance and for Henderson to drag us over the line, but I do expect our captain to try at the very least. I was furious with him in particular in those last 10 mins, he completely went into his shell. Not good enough for Captain. For those exact reasons I wasn't impressed with Wijnaldum, but as his second game for the club and with no one around him exactly inspiring I'm not writing him off as a failure just yet. As for Lallana it was a performance we have seen far too many times from him, fading in and out of the match. He did look bright for about 10 mins in the first half and seemed to be the only Liverpool player capable of getting a touch in the box, he needs to be more clinical when he does get those touches. But as the game went on he slowly faded out.

      The front three surprised me with their lack of creativity and imagination. We're not talking about a team that starved them of supply, they were more than happy to let Coutinho, Firmino and Sturridge have as much of the ball as they wanted. Coutinho drives me mad when he resorts to those pot shots from outside the box. I'm sure it's equally as frustrating for him because it is obvious he can bang them in, and no doubt he will score one of them soon and I'll be made eat my words again. I understand one or two desperate attempts in the dying stages of the match but for 88 minutes it was all he had in mind. I know no one else was coming up with anything else but a player of his ability needs to be smarter in those situations, draw a foul, run at them or pull a man out of position, but don't spend the whole game doing exactly what they want you to do.

      I am as annoyed as anyone at Sturridge starting out wide right but who's decision was it that he would become a central mid fielder? I don't know whether that was Sturridge's desperation to get on the ball or an instruction from the coaching staff but it was ridiculous. The few opportunities we did get a few yards to run at them, our best striker was behind the play!

      Firmino for me was the most guilty of the three, he brought nothing to the game. His passing was wayward, he was static up front and lacked the same creativity as everyone else.

      It was always going to be tricky going to a place like Turf Moor but when you give them a goal so early you give them something to defend, you give them a purpose, a reason to defend with their lives. The players we have should be much better than they showed in defence and more worryingly in attack. 30 yard pot shots and countless lofted crosses into a defence that just came out of the Championship... they take them crosses all day, every day. We played into their hands and that was obvious after half an hour, the problem is we were incapable of changing that.

      It was such a bad performance that you have to put it down as a one off, even thinking that it is anything more than that is terrifying! I think it is for the best that we're playing again on Tuesday, get a good performance and win in before going to Spurs. Plenty of work for Klopp and the lads to do this week, but we're still on for 111 points this season!
      FRANS
      • Forum Billy Liddell
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #650: Aug 21, 2016 05:39:53 pm
      Our  defence is still lacking  we don't  have a goalkeeper with full  confidence the backline  have no leader  I  can not
      even  speak about the LB   position and   our defencive midfielders  .Sometimes  I don't even know who to blame
      Must I blame the backline or  defensive  midfielders or is it Mignolet
      We can't keep on giving away goals on  a silver plate all the time..
      PastorGeek
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #651: Aug 21, 2016 06:10:40 pm

      Good point. Coutinho shouldn't be playing left.

      There are so many glaring holes in our starting 11 if we are going to play 4-2-3-1 but even klopp doesnt seem to see it.

      1. We need a real DM
      2. New left back
      3. our side lacks genuine width. That means
       - A new left winger cause Coutinho is generally average out on the left and ways cuts inside.
       - If you MUST play coutinho wide left, then Moreno should play because he adds width and pace.
       - Sturridge should not play on the wings
       - There should be a plan B if Mane is injured

      Ribapuru
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #652: Aug 21, 2016 07:06:44 pm
      Erm....Karius is injured, hence why Mig is starting.
      Is English your first language? I never asked why Mig started... I said he should not be at our club because he is crap even as a number 2 goalkeeper. Having Karius as number 1 is no excuse for Mignolet being at Liverpool.
      sore monad
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #653: Aug 21, 2016 07:32:17 pm
      Yes and for me he was our most effective player at his role in the team. Unfortunately as a striker in a team that plays that deep you need help. I'm not saying he played well but he actually made the runs that gave space to others. Sturridge dropping into midfield constantly just meant there were more defenders to deal with those runs. Sturridge, playing wide right had to get in and beyond their defenders as did our offensive midfielders.

      We just didn't function well and I thought Sturridge was a much bigger problem, granted not in his natural position, than Firmino was. I've seen it mentioned above that Sturridge is a better mover, not even close. Firmino does not stop moving, he does not stop looking for a pass. The same with Phil, part of our strategy is to get him clear goal scoring chances cutting in from the left, he had those, he just didn't execute as well as he can. That part of our 'plan' worked to present him with the chances but it wasn't enough with the rest of our offensive game so far from where it needs to be.

      It got to the point that Burnley were giving Milner 15 yards of clear space when on the wing because he was so ineffective at crossing, a large problem with that is in Coutinho we didn't have a player who ran into the box, in Lallana again another that prefers to operate on the edge and Wijnaldum who I'm not totally sure what his role was in the team. So when you're crossing to Firmino and Sturridge (occasionally) against 6 or 7 defenders then the odds are those crosses are not going to be effective.

      Jürgen took far too long to change this though, we needed Moreno, someone with the pace to go beyond and naturally on the left side to get in behind. Milner was a poor choice for this game and it might spark some movement in the market because Milner's strength is meant to be more in the offensive side of the game if he is to be at LB and today proved he just isn't comfortable enough there.

      Moving forward I think Jürgen needs to address 2 key areas and both are in central midfield, the balance there is abysmal right now. It was the one area of the pitch I was most concerned with after last season and if Wijnaldum and Henderson are Jürgen's answer then I'm not convinced with it. If it's that Emre is just returning to match fitness, which I suspect, and Grujic is just getting up to speed then I'm more hopeful.

      A 3 of Can, Grujic, Wijnaldum (playing Lallana's role) and I'd be much happier with that balance.

      Disappointed to hear Milner struggled at LB, as I despair of Moreno. We should be looking for a new one anyway though.

      Central midfield yeah I think is still up in the air. I was hoping Wijnaldum would really work out there as a partner for one of the others. Not so far by the sound of it, but I'd be inclined to give him a bit of time there and vary his partner - see if we can get something to click. ( The problem for me if we play him, Grujic and Can is that we are then going to have to drop 2 of our AM's, who are actually basically our best players).

      The stuff you are saying about our crosses being sh*te - yeah its no great surprise. But if you are playing Firmino up front, you are not set up for crosses to begin with. A team that sits deep and says ok you aren't coming through the middle, and that you are trying to break down with crosses, needs you to have a proper centre forward who is good in the air.
      GERNS
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #654: Aug 21, 2016 08:19:14 pm
      Only saw highlights on MOTD so can't really say about the game as a whole. From the stats looked like we bossed it, but obviously no cutting edge plus 2 dire bits of defending.

      The second was worse than the first for me. 3 different players going in weakly in the tackle, really poor.

      I'd have liked us to go in for somebody like Kante to give us a true DM, but with Grujic coming in, and Jürgen obviously wanting to try Wijnaldum in CM we have quite a few different options in CM to try out. If you can get 2 good all round CM's then you dont necessarily need a specialist DM. This looks like its what Jürgen is going for and we need to give it a bit of time to see if he can find a combo that works in that area. Hendo on his own is not going to give enough protection I dont think.

      With the players we've got I think 4-2-3-1 looks better than 4-3-3. The latter seems to be Jürgen's plan B formation, but he may have to stick with plan A.

      Also, was Firmino playing up top and Sturridge wide right? I really don't get playing Firmino as a striker. Play Sturridge or

      I thought all these options were supposed to be tried and tested in pre season, and a settled formation and tactic being in place for the seasons start.
      I'm so fu**ed off with this same old inept performance from our side, on a too regular basis, I'm starting to lose the will to live.
      Everyone goes on about us raising our game against the better sides, but that happens a lot less, than us falling apart against the lesser sides.
      We all know about the better sides coming out to play, and opening up so we can pass through them. And the lesser teams park the bus and we fail to break them down.
      The truth is, we don't have a decent side. Mane made the difference against the arse, and everyone steps up a gear. Still woeful defending though.
      It seems we will always have one or two quality players, who when available will pull us through, but when we have a player the likes of Henderson as our captain, who would likely be about 5th choice as captain of Sunderland right now, Well that pretty well sums us up.
      Until we get someone of real quality, a real leader, a player with talent, poise, guile and the balls to make a decent tackle, and bollock anyone who slacks, as a CM boss captain, we will always remain a mid table side.
      So depressed with this performance all round, i'm not voting for a MOTM. Really don't think its deserved.
      Benito
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #655: Aug 22, 2016 02:11:32 am
      PastorGeek
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #656: Aug 22, 2016 03:20:57 am
      Disappointed to hear Milner struggled at LB, as I despair of Moreno. We should be looking for a new one anyway though.

      Central midfield yeah I think is still up in the air. I was hoping Wijnaldum would really work out there as a partner for one of the others. Not so far by the sound of it, but I'd be inclined to give him a bit of time there and vary his partner - see if we can get something to click. ( The problem for me if we play him, Grujic and Can is that we are then going to have to drop 2 of our AM's, who are actually basically our best players).

      The stuff you are saying about our crosses being sh*te - yeah its no great surprise. But if you are playing Firmino up front, you are not set up for crosses to begin with. A team that sits deep and says ok you aren't coming through the middle, and that you are trying to break down with crosses, needs you to have a proper centre forward who is good in the air.

      its not just about crossing. Having wingers actual wingers who play out wide and dont cut in the middle predictively every time. Create space. Stretch defenses. It gives them something to worry about. When everything goes thru the middle its very easy to defend against.

      we have 81% of possession. We could not open them up
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #657: Aug 22, 2016 05:39:51 am
      we had 80 % possession, which really shows Burnley's intent more than ours. The feeling I always get when a team I'm playing in can't break another side down is that we are usually rushing it. I don't think it helped having Milner at LB and Clyne at right if we are looking to get extra men in an behind them out wide.
      trebor12
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #658: Aug 22, 2016 07:27:43 am
      For me it's square pegs in round holes with this formation. Wijnaldum is not a CM, niether is Lallana. Hendo is definitely not a DM. I think Klopp thinks that Can isn't fully fit yet and maybe grujic isn't fully ready or experienced enough to start. One if our regular center backs is out injures in sakho, matip is coming back from an injury  and has no premier league experience. The left back situation is plain to see and who comes in at right back if Clyne is out or out of former. Coutinho is a number 10 not a left winger and if we are going to play him out of position then he should be one of the midfield 3 instead of Wijnaldum. Mignolet is only there because of Karius injury. So there's a few things we can improve on when these players become available. Everyone is downbeat because of this result but I think Jürgen is working with what he thinks is HIS best options. This is his team now so we have to be a little more patient, how ever painfully it may be.
      Beerbelly
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #659: Aug 22, 2016 09:09:07 am
      In all fairness I have always allowed for his lack of fitness or sharpness dew to injury, and again in all fairness it does not help his cause that he tries so hard to score when passing would give someone else a better chance to do so... Now having made those allowances... It is his lack of pace, his in ability to sprint for a ball, or run away from defenders, his lack or real drive or desire( by this I mean his willingness to chase the ball that is over hit like yesterday)  His lack of belief in his abilities, doing things he would have done some two seasons ago... even the things that he still does well he looks labored in doing... Yes injuries may have taken thier toll on Sturrigde but as you eluded to when you said "his movement and runs are what can get him into position that sets him apart from the likes of Ings, Origi and to a lesser extent Firmino (who's movement is also quite good)." we are seeing this less and less from him, just as we did watching Steven Gerrard in his last two seasons at LFC...
      We may disagree with the reasons but surely you (and others here) can see that this is not the same player from two seasons ago, and we should not wait as we did with Gerrard two find a replacement...Yes Sturrigde still has plenty to offer LFC only in a more determinismed roll

      I've only seen what,? 65 minutes of him this season mate, so I am not certainly going to write him off.

      Firstly, he was played out of position and therefore wasn't able to play in his natural role - this was given to Firmino who in 180 minutes of football this season has looked very ordinary to me; his ball retention is abysmal.

      Secondly, Burnley's defense were that deep that playing off the shoulder of the last man made it virtually impossible to use Sturridge's pace to get in behind their defense - again, he also wasn't in a position of play to do this, he was either on the wing or playing deeper.

      Thirdly, he's a slow starter it will take him at least a handful of games to get into his mojo, and if deployed as a '9' at the expense of the ineffective Firmino, Sturridge will still calve out chances, his movement in and around the box in order to make a yard extra of space to shoot is second to none in this team.

      Give him time. He is STILL after all the transfer windows we've had since he's been here, our best chance of putting teams to the sword.

      I mean, given all the doubt you have about him think of this, if injury free would you doubt him to be our top goal scorer, and if so who do you think would score more than him in a season?
      « Last Edit: Aug 22, 2016 09:27:06 am by Beerbelly »
      Ebieahi
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #660: Aug 22, 2016 09:28:20 am
      Dissapointing result!
      My concern has always been that we dont have a good enough spine in this team.
      Man for man we have a better squad than everybody outside of the usual top 4...however we dont have the spine to make us competitive. Our team needs to be much much stronger mentally.

      I believe we are 2 players away from being a solid competitive team...
      1) We need a quality DLPM...somebody to dictate play and control the tempo of the game. An Alonso/Kroos type player alongside which we can slot Can/Grujic or Lucas as the DM.
      2) We need a quality LB... defences play as a unit and ours have been unsettled for too long hence the erratic performances. I have no doubt that there are good players in Clyne, Lovren, Sakho and Klavan...but as a collective they need a dependable LB to forge a solid partnership with.

      Should we get these 2 positions filled, i have no doubt that we can eliminate some of the problems we have against the smaller teams.

      Next match against Spurs it could be all change again and this presents a problem for many of our confidence based players. When the going gets tough, who do they turn to?
      Beerbelly
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #661: Aug 22, 2016 09:34:27 am
      Quote
      Also, was Firmino playing up top and Sturridge wide right? I really don't get playing Firmino as a striker. Play Sturridge or Origi or Ings there. Actual strikers.

      Yep, that was a clanger by Klopp.

      Firmino as a striker may work from time to time but as highlighted on the weekend and in fairness the weekend before where he didn't impact on the game as he should have he's going to disappoint in comparison to playing Sturridge there.

      I reckon Firmino is Klopp's landlord.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #662: Aug 22, 2016 10:15:04 am
      I thought Origi was going to be our away CF he has proved to be really good at holding the ball up and his touch is really good. Burnley and next up Burton the headline writers will be sharpening their pencils as we speak
      The Real Donavan Ried
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #663: Aug 22, 2016 10:58:06 am
      I've only seen what,? 65 minutes of him this season mate, so I am not certainly going to write him off.

      Firstly, he was played out of position and therefore wasn't able to play in his natural role - this was given to Firmino who in 180 minutes of football this season has looked very ordinary to me; his ball retention is abysmal.

      Secondly, Burnley's defense were that deep that playing off the shoulder of the last man made it virtually impossible to use Sturridge's pace to get in behind their defense - again, he also wasn't in a position of play to do this, he was either on the wing or playing deeper.

      Thirdly, he's a slow starter it will take him at least a handful of games to get into his mojo, and if deployed as a '9' at the expense of the ineffective Firmino, Sturridge will still calve out chances, his movement in and around the box in order to make a yard extra of space to shoot is second to none in this team.

      Give him time. He is STILL after all the transfer windows we've had since he's been here, our best chance of putting teams to the sword.

      I mean, given all the doubt you have about him think of this, if injury free would you doubt him to be our top goal scorer, and if so who do you think would score more than him in a season?
      Respect what you are saying, But I feel that this has more to do with Sturrigde and his overall play, than any injuries past of present... Even when fit, when was the last time you saw him sprint for a ball, or sprint into space full stop??... Something is not right there, and all i am saying is we should be looking for the next Sturrigde sooner rather than later
      MIRO
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      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #664: Aug 22, 2016 12:15:31 pm
      Respect what you are saying, But I feel that this has more to do with Sturrigde and his overall play, than any injuries past of present... Even when fit, when was the last time you saw him sprint for a ball, or sprint into space full stop??... Something is not right there, and all i am saying is we should be looking for the next Sturrigde sooner rather than later

      Fully agreed. Hes not committing . 
      When a hamstring goes or any similar injury there is always that millisecond off the pace .... that hesitation.
      Its never the same.

      Time to say Ta Ra ... and thanks for all the fish.
      racerx34
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      • THE SALT IN THE SOUP
      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #665: Aug 22, 2016 02:38:52 pm
      Tadders
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
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      • 6,613 posts | 558 
      Re: Burnley 2-0 Liverpool: In game and post match debate
      Reply #666: Aug 24, 2016 10:36:04 pm
      A final footnote in this game, that may well sum up our entire club.

      Accrington Stanley 1 Burnley 0

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