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      Clean Sheets

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      SM
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      Clean Sheets
      Nov 07, 2016 10:02:29 am
      Our football is fantastic at the moment, we are scoring freely and giving proper hidings to most we come across so am I right to be worried at our inability to keep teams out and improve our "clean sheet" statistic?

      We will not be scoring 4 and more every week. West Brom was a good example being in total control and then nearly blowing it due to our regular lapse. Palace was nerve wracking and even yesterday Watford had a 15 minute spell where they could have scored one if not more. I'm sure we would have upped our game if Watford had nicked an earlier goal though and at 5-0 up I understand why we took our foot off the gas.

      My concern is in closer games, we have to be able to win 1-0 and tighten it if that's what it takes. I worry we cant do that yet.

      Let me be clear I know teams like West Ham and Watford have kept more clean sheets so don't use that as a barometer. We are at a different level to those and must look to become the finished article.

      I'm not looking to piss on anyone's euphoria rather discuss what I see as an issue that may cost us when we are not banging in the goals to make conceding 1 irrelevant.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #1: Nov 07, 2016 10:03:27 am
      Clean sheets are over rated  ;D
      reddebs
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #2: Nov 07, 2016 10:35:41 am
      I guess on the face of it, 14 goals conceded in 11 games, or 1.27 gpg or 48 over a 38 game season isn't good enough for a title win but some context as always is needed.

      If we are to assume that our best/regular starting back 5 is going to karius, Clyne, Matip, Lovren and Milner then I believe those 5 have only started together 3 or 4 out of the 11 games played.

      5 of the 14 were scored in the first 2 games, since then we're averaging 1gpg.

      Yes a strong defense and clean sheets are important but not the be all and end all of what we can win.  Pepe Reina had 115 PL clean sheets in 237 game over a 7 season period and we won F**k all in that time, with only 1 real title challenge in that time.

      Don't get me wrong, it will cost us a win or two at some point but let's not get too hung up on it, there's enough in the media hoping it'll derail our season.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #3: Nov 07, 2016 11:08:15 am
      I agree to an extent, a lot of our goals have been soft and avoidable, but some haven't, some have been good goals, some have been goals the team scored against other clubs in other matches, but in true fashion, the English press and media, in a need to fill back pages with sh*te, are over blowing the entire thing. Nonetheless, yes, we need to tighten up at the back and the look on Klopp's face yesterday makes it clear he feels exactly the same.
      mcarz
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #4: Nov 07, 2016 11:19:07 am
      How are Spurs' numerous clean sheets treating them this season? :D.

      At home we've conceded 4 in 5 games but away from home we've conceded 10 in 6 games so it's our away form that's skewing the figures a little. We conceded 2 at Burnley, 2 at Palace and 3 at Arsenal. Half of the goals we've conceded this season have come in just 3 games and we won 2 of them.

      We've only been behind THREE times this season in 11 league games and one of them was the loss at Burnley so conceding goals hasn't really affected us that much. In 5

      Man City have kept just 2 clean sheets in the league so why don't we hear people going on at them for not defending better? In the 9 games they've conceded in they've conceded 10 goals and in the first couple of months of the season conceding wasn't a problem but in the past 5 games they've kept 1 clean sheet, conceded 5, scored 7 but have won just 1 game, drawn 3 and lost 1. Not only are they conceding but they're failing to score enough to win games, atleast we're doing that. 

      Not keeping clean sheets is only ever a problem when you're failing to win games or you're defending that much that you're failing to score at the other end. I'll start worrying about them when we start drawing a ton of games 1-1 like Man City & Spurs are doing at the moment. I'll take points over clean sheets any day.
      JD
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #5: Nov 07, 2016 11:48:23 am
      Only Palace (2) and Sunderland (4) have less clean sheets than us in 2016.  We've got 5. Same as Stoke.

      Arsenal and Leicester have 14.

      I'd like to see us get a clean sheet at least every 3 or 4 games rather than 1 in every 6.  I don't think you can win the league without throwing a fair few 1-0s in but we can certainly finish in the top four with our current strategy.

      People suggest that it is something that will get better but I genuinely believe it's a price we will pay, and will be worth paying, for the type of football we have.

      Let's face it - a clean sheet is only important when you score 1 or none, not when you score 4 or 6.

      It's about when you get them - not how many IMO.
      mcarz
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #6: Nov 07, 2016 11:58:30 am
      Only Palace (2) and Sunderland (4) have less clean sheets than us in 2016.  We've got 5. Same as Stoke.

      Arsenal and Leicester have 14.

      I'd like to see us get a clean sheet at least every 3 or 4 games rather than 1 in every 6.  I don't think you can win the league without throwing a fair few 1-0s in but we can certainly finish in the top four with our current strategy.

      People suggest that it is something that will get better but I genuinely believe it's a price we will pay, and will be worth paying, for the type of football we have.

      Let's face it - a clean sheet is only important when you score 1 or none, not when you score 4 or 6.

      It's about when you get them - not how many IMO.

      Aren't we top of the points table for 2016 though with the best GD?
      bazspeedman
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #7: Nov 07, 2016 11:59:02 am
      Once Karius is fully settled in as our no.1 the clean sheets will follow.

      If we are selling Sakho in January I'd love to see us sign Sule he could be the difference in us solidifying our defence enough to win the league.
      redkenny
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #8: Nov 07, 2016 12:30:59 pm
      As mentioned already, I think it's a price we pay for the type of footy we play. To have so much intensity and drive going forward for most of the game, it's inevitable that near the end we lose a bit of concentration when we lose the ball in the oppositions half.

      I think we'd see more clean sheets if we were keeping things more apprehensive with and without the ball.

      Closing games out is what we need to improve on, I'd say. Not defending the goal.
      GeorgeRed
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #9: Nov 07, 2016 12:35:54 pm
      When we are 5-0 up i don't give a single f**k if we concede a goal. A team that has so many goals in it is surely a candidate for the title.
      Swab
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #10: Nov 07, 2016 12:39:20 pm
      As mentioned already, I think it's a price we pay for the type of footy we play. To have so much intensity and drive going forward for most of the game, it's inevitable that near the end we lose a bit of concentration when we lose the ball in the oppositions half.

      I think we'd see more clean sheets if we were keeping things more apprehensive with and without the ball.

      Closing games out is what we need to improve on, I'd say. Not defending the goal.

      Personally, I just think the press have found another stick to wave around, and they've all jumped on the bandwagon.

      Of course we're a bit open at the back when attacking, but so is any team who commits men forwards, which is pretty much the whole top 8.
      Of course we could defend better, but you can say that about any team who concede a goal.

      I'm not worried, and nor am I going to take any notice of this latest press campaign, simply because we are nowhere near as open as we were under BR in the "oh so nearly" season. We're also fitter, more aggressive, and have more players being more aggressive.
      We'll ship a few here and there, but so will others.
      What's important is who we concede to, and when.
      Brian78
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #11: Nov 07, 2016 12:50:21 pm
      I mentioned yesterday that id have forsaken scoring 6 just to see a "Watford 0". Look its fantastic to be doing what were doing God knows its  the most enjoyable football I've seen for years. But I have a fear in the back of my mind and its this, there will come a time this season when we wont be scoring 3 or 4 in a match. We might score 1 we might score none. And in those games it will be vital that we keep clean sheets. Clean sheets that will turn zero points in to 1 point or 3 points. Points that will be invaluable at the end of the season.

      I will every bit as happy, happier, as yesterday when the day comes we play bad and scrape a 1 nil because our back 5 put on a master class of defending.

      All our great sides that swept all before them were built from the back. That went from Shanks through to Kenny. Wed have won a league under Roy Evans had we been better at the back same might be said for 2014.

      1 clean sheet in 11. Needs to be improved on. And if it is, Jesus if it is if we can keep goals out who will stop us?
      JD
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #12: Nov 07, 2016 01:02:27 pm
      Personally, I just think the press have found another stick to wave around, and they've all jumped on the bandwagon.

      Possibly.

      Aren't we top of the points table for 2016 though with the best GD?

      Arsenal have had 14 and we've had 5 but we've both got 56 points in 2016 so clean sheets are obviously overstated.

      Admittedly we haven't been under any pressure for wins in those games.

      I still think that if you are going for the title the pressure starts to crank up towards the very end.  2013-14 we conceded 11 goals in our last 6 games and that was that.
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #13: Nov 07, 2016 01:09:34 pm
      I'm not concerned at all about the clean sheet argument, the football we are witnessing & enjoying so much will have a slight negative, which is we may let a goal or two in, but if your leading 4-0 who gives a shiny one?...

      More of the same please.....
      SM
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #14: Nov 07, 2016 01:15:14 pm
      I'm not concerned at all about the clean sheet argument, the football we are witnessing & enjoying so much will have a slight negative, which is we may let a goal or two in, but if your leading 4-0 who gives a shiny one?...

      More of the same please.....

      Of course your right mate but its not the point I was trying to make.

      We wont always be banging in loads of goals, I hope we do but I am sure that at some point this season we will need to dig in and scrap for that 1-0.

      Would you in all honesty say we can easily do that now, I don't see it yet.

      HamannsTheMan
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #15: Nov 07, 2016 01:27:03 pm
      I'm not worried about our lack of clean sheets. Very rarely do we see a team open us up. Very rarely do we see a player score a screamer against us. I'd even say its become rare that we will concede from a set piece now too and there was a time not too long ago were every corner or free kick we gave away there was a feeling around the ground that we would concede.

      It might just be my imagination, but most of the goals we are letting in at the moment come from individual errors. The vast majority of them could have been avoided.   You can't do anything about a wonder strike from 30 yards out and sometimes you have to applaud the opposition if they play some nice football and rip you open with a neat move. But the goals we let in are just soft, silly mistakes from our players usually (Moreno & Mignolet in particular!).

      I said this in the post match thread V Watford, we might still be leaking goals but we look far more solid with Matip in the back four. We are defending much better. The clean sheets will come and I'd be more worried if teams actually earned their goals against us rather than us giving them away for free. It won't be long until we cut our mistakes out and we will be twatting teams 6-0 instead of 6-1.
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #16: Nov 07, 2016 01:34:48 pm
      Of course your right mate but its not the point I was trying to make.

      We wont always be banging in loads of goals, I hope we do but I am sure that at some point this season we will need to dig in and scrap for that 1-0.

      Would you in all honesty say we can easily do that now, I don't see it yet.



      It will be a tough task to breakdown teams who are anti football, just look at what Jose did at Anfield, as long as we score 1 more than the opposition is what matters, clean shets are great but I don't think the title will be decided by goal difference.
      reddebs
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #17: Nov 07, 2016 01:37:34 pm
      Of course your right mate but its not the point I was trying to make.

      We wont always be banging in loads of goals, I hope we do but I am sure that at some point this season we will need to dig in and scrap for that 1-0.

      Would you in all honesty say we can easily do that now, I don't see it yet.



      We probably won't continue to bang in 4/5/6 goals a game mate but what makes you believe they'll dry up completely? 

      That normally happens when a team relies on 1 or 2 goal scorers and injuries hit but that isn't us this season, we have goals from everywhere and everyone which should see the goals continue from somewhere even if they're not in the same numbers.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #18: Nov 07, 2016 02:13:33 pm
      We probably won't continue to bang in 4/5/6 goals a game mate but what makes you believe they'll dry up completely? 

      That normally happens when a team relies on 1 or 2 goal scorers and injuries hit but that isn't us this season, we have goals from everywhere and everyone which should see the goals continue from somewhere even if they're not in the same numbers.

      Things happen. International duty, injuries, goal droughts, better defences, counter tactics that work. It's a fair point he makes and clearly a problem Klopp wants eradicated otherwise he wouldn't working on it in training. Too many people are getting carried away with their complacency. Thank goodness Klopp isn't.
      SM
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #19: Nov 07, 2016 02:19:50 pm
      We probably won't continue to bang in 4/5/6 goals a game mate but what makes you believe they'll dry up completely? 

      That normally happens when a team relies on 1 or 2 goal scorers and injuries hit but that isn't us this season, we have goals from everywhere and everyone which should see the goals continue from somewhere even if they're not in the same numbers.

      I don't Debs, I feel we really carry a threat these days but its more of a niggle in the back of my mind.

      People keep mentioning "points" are what matters rather than clean sheets but I feel we will need those clean sheets to gain quite a few 3 pointers this season.

      Would love us to steamroller everyone from now until the end but the realist in me says that wont happen.
      reddebs
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #20: Nov 07, 2016 02:35:51 pm
      Things happen. International duty, injuries, goal droughts, better defences, counter tactics that work. It's a fair point he makes and clearly a problem Klopp wants eradicated otherwise he wouldn't working on it in training. Too many people are getting carried away with their complacency. Thank goodness Klopp isn't.

      Things do happen but they happen to all teams and of course Jürgen's working on it as he has with the attack and midfield.

      Like I said in my earlier post, our starting 5 have barely played together so are still learning and gaining trust in each other and themselves. 


      I don't Debs, I feel we really carry a threat these days but its more of a niggle in the back of my mind.

      People keep mentioning "points" are what matters rather than clean sheets but I feel we will need those clean sheets to gain quite a few 3 pointers this season.

      Would love us to steamroller everyone from now until the end but the realist in me says that wont happen.


      We probably will need them mate but we've plenty of time to work on it and if the improvements everywhere else on the pitch is an indicater of how much better the defense will be then I doubt it'll be an issue later in the season.

      Have faith in the boss, although most people think of Dortmund as an attacking force their defense was pretty stingy I think.  Yep his 2 Title winning seasons they conceded 22 and 25 goals down from 37 and 42 in the previous 2.
      srslfc
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #21: Nov 07, 2016 02:42:48 pm
      I'm not overly concerned about it.

      A few would be nice but I think 9 times out of 10 we have the ability to outscore the opposition and I'm just enjoying how great we are going forward right now. Even if it is only the highlights I'm getting to see.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Clean Sheets
      Reply #22: Nov 07, 2016 02:50:45 pm
      Things do happen but they happen to all teams and of course Jürgen's working on it as he has with the attack and midfield.

      Like I said in my earlier post, our starting 5 have barely played together so are still learning and gaining trust in each other and themselves. 

      I agree with that and I agree with srslfc in that I'm not overly concerned because Klopp has said he's trying to coach it out, and I said in my earlier post that there is an over reaction about it because not every goal we concede is of our own making, nonetheless, we shouldn't be complacent simply because we have the league's best attacking force right now. We've seen how Maureen shut that attacking force down and had United been more clinical and scored, we would have found it difficult to get back into the game. It's games like that I believe the OP is alluding to. We all know how fine the margins can be, and I for one have no desire for history to repeat itself.

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