Should Klopp Be More Flexible With His Footballing Philosophy?

The other thread was discussing whether or not the problems we are going through were down to Klopp or the players he uses. I made this thread so we could discuss actual tactics/formations. That said, Mods, please feel free to merge this with another thread if you feel it's warranted.

Either way, I found this an interesting read: Should Liverpool go 3-4-3

I'd like to see this 3-4-3 thing given a go:

Migs/Karius

Clyne - Matip - Lovren

Mane - Henderson - Lallana - Milner

Sturridge - Firmino - Coutinho

Mane would be employed as an attacking winger

The other thread was discussing whether or not the problems we are going through were down to Klopp or the players he uses. I made this thread so we could discuss actual tactics/formations. That said, Mods, please feel free to merge this with another thread if you feel it's warranted.

Either way, I found this an interesting read: Should Liverpool go 3-4-3

I'd like to see this 3-4-3 thing given a go:

Migs/Karius

Clyne - Matip - Lovren

Mane - Henderson - Lallana - Milner

Sturridge - Firmino - Coutinho

Mane would be employed as an attacking winger

That should be good especially having 2 goalies playing,but would that be ok with the F.A.

The other thread was discussing whether or not the problems we are going through were down to Klopp or the players he uses. I made this thread so we could discuss actual tactics/formations. That said, Mods, please feel free to merge this with another thread if you feel it's warranted.

Either way, I found this an interesting read: Should Liverpool go 3-4-3

I'd like to see this 3-4-3 thing given a go:

Migs/Karius

Clyne - Matip - Lovren

Mane - Henderson - Lallana - Milner

Sturridge - Firmino - Coutinho

Mane would be employed as an attacking winger

Sturridge is too slow to fit in that system.

I don't think Clyne is good enough defensively either.

We would also need a stronger CM like Matip next to Hendo.

This is how I think it would work.

                       Migs

       Gomez - Matip - Lovren

Clyne - Hendo - New CM - Milner

        Mane - Firmino - Coutinho

Not sure Clyne offers us much in a more forward role, but that said, he might shine with less defensive duties.

Two words, Winter break. People keep banging on about how Jürgen did things in Germany, how he never bought in Winter, never went route one etc etc. They take Crimbo off there though don't they? Freshen up a bit, recover, heal niggles etc. We don't do that here, the games just keep coming.

We need a bigger squad with more quality (ie kids who aren't ready aren't part of it) and we need alternative ways of winning football matches which don't always include running miles further than the opposition.

In short, not change but adapt.

Was just thinking about something along these lines yesterday. Before the match against Saints, was on the thread saying hoped Jürgen played an attacking team, with a selection that showed we were going for it, that we meant to really go at them and win the game.

Made me think back to Rodgers. There was a lot of PL games we went into I was thinking, well, maybe he might err a little more on the side of caution, before a big game say where a draw might be OK - but (almost) always he sent out the same attacking side and went for it with the same attacking football that was so brilliant to watch. Easy to say he was naive, and maybe more focus on the defensive side might have taken us further - but it might also have taken away from the way we were playing, which the players were obviously enjoying and was working. Maybe with his same philosophy - just with slightly better defenders - we might not have narrowly missed out, we might narrowly have won it. A LOT of if, buts and maybes.

Jürgen has his way of playing, it's worked for him in the past, it can work for him again. At the end of the day though, no matter what philosophy a manager has, he also needs a set of players good enough to get where you want to be. Just think right now we still lacking a bit of quality, and a bit of depth. We got to two finals last year, and played super football earlier this season. Would have slight concern that the high tempo press might leave us with less energy in the closing stages of the season, but that remains to be seen.

In general though, think a manager has to stick to his principles. Tweak them slightly maybe - but football can be over-complicated, the best philosophies  are pretty simple - good players playing a certain way. Everyone buys in. Players, staff, fans. We've seen the change under Jürgen, his way of playing can work, maybe just need to jiggle the player selection sometimes, but in general given time would hope it'll come good

I changed the title to reflect a more flexible nature to how he likes to play the game and not so much a full on change of philosophy.

So are we now saying that one of the top managers in the world doesn't know what he is doing? Lot of prospective managers will be posting I am sure 

Not really mate. Just discussing if a change of formation might better suit the Premier league and players at our disposal.

So are we now saying that one of the top managers in the world doesn't know what he is doing? Lot of prospective managers will be posting I am sure 

It's a f****** joke that. Point me to the thread where that's happening mate, I'll give whoever it is both barrels, f****** idiots.

I think he should stick with his philosophy.

He knows how he wants his team to play, so he is building a footballing identity with the players he has at his disposal.

Our problem is that we are short of quality in certain areas of our XI and with Mane off to AFCON we don't have a recognized winger. Once Mane is back and our attacking trio of Mane-Firmino-Coutinho are fit for the rest of the season then we should be ok.

This summer its crucial we get another winger, a CM (Please let it be Dahoud) and improve our defence with a CB & LB.

...

Rodgers had a similar thread

Two words, Winter break. People keep banging on about how Jürgen did things in Germany, how he never bought in Winter, never went route one etc etc. They take Crimbo off there though don't they? Freshen up a bit, recover, heal niggles etc. We don't do that here, the games just keep coming.

Fair point.

I don't think there was much wrong with our formation - or the fact that we were playing 3 forward players.  I genuinely believe we have suffered with injuries to key players and the lack of a decent sized squad.  You can't take Mane, Coutinho, Henderson and a recovering Lallana out of that team and expect it to look as good.

If we had Mane and Matip for the past month then I believe we'd have collected more Premier League points than we have.

Clyne has more touches in the opposing half than his own - putting him as part of a 3 man central defence is a total non starter for me.  I'd rather have him on the wing and Mane further up than stifle Mane to try and fit Sturridge in.

I really don't see much future for Sturridge at Liverpool.  While he will have the occasional flash of brilliance IMO his best days are behind him now.

I like the new managers signings - I think Wijnaldum has been an improvement, Matip has been an improvement, Mane has been an improvement.  Grujic I've not seen enough of, jury's out on Karius but he's a young lad and if we edge tomorrow night then he will have played a big part in the tie.

We are just missing the 3 or 4 quality additions to the squad but the problem is whether the club are prepared to stump up the £25-£30M a year in wages for them all. 

It's a good topic to discuss Rush but you've not actually given your views on what you believe Jurgens philosophy or tactics are or how going 343 would change them, or if they'd change at all.

In reality the formations are really irrelevant as just changing around where each of the 11 players stand at ko, doesn't imply or equate to a change of philosophy or tactics.  They also vary and change thoughout the course of our games.

For example, the 3 at the back idea, we generally do have 3 at the back when attacking.  Those 3 would be the 2 cbs and the sitting cm but they are also generally a lot higher up the pitch than say Chelsea's 3.  The difference therefore is the "philosophy" of the managers where Conte is defend first, attack second and Jürgen is attack first, defend second. 

So just saying lets go 343 and be defensive would require a totally different mindset or "philosophy" and also different players to the ones we currently have.  To go 343 and be defensive we need to counter attack and none of our attacking players have the pace to do so.  Nor do we have 2 dcms who will protect the 3 and none of our cbs are good at the "low block" defending required to make it work.

If you've opened the thread because you feel he needs to change the philosophy/tactics/formations to help us become harder to beat or better defensively then check out his stats from his Dortmund days, the seasons just before and the seasons of his Title wins.  His philosophy/tactics/formations don't change but the defending stats do.  It took him a couple of years to improve it, both on the training pitch and with players but they got there and became very difficult to beat and even more difficult to score against.

The flexibility thing, being less stubborn, gegenpressing won't work, we've been found out brigade are phrases thought up and propogated by experts, pundits and our rivals fans to console themselves with the hope that he won't replicate his Dortmund success at Liverpool.

Fair point.

I don't think there was much wrong with our formation - or the fact that we were playing 3 forward players.  I genuinely believe we have suffered with injuries to key players and the lack of a decent sized squad.  You can't take Mane, Coutinho, Henderson and a recovering Lallana out of that team and expect it to look as good.

If we had Mane and Matip for the past month then I believe we'd have collected more Premier League points than we have.

Clyne has more touches in the opposing half than his own - putting him as part of a 3 man central defence is a total non starter for me.  I'd rather have him on the wing and Mane further up than stifle Mane to try and fit Sturridge in.

I really don't see much future for Sturridge at Liverpool.  While he will have the occasional flash of brilliance IMO his best days are behind him now.

I like the new managers signings - I think Wijnaldum has been an improvement, Matip has been an improvement, Mane has been an improvement.  Grujic I've not seen enough of, jury's out on Karius but he's a young lad and if we edge tomorrow night then he will have played a big part in the tie.

We are just missing the 3 or 4 quality additions to the squad but the problem is whether the club are prepared to stump up the £25-£30M a year in wages for them all.

It's a good topic to discuss Rush but you've not actually given your views on what you believe Jurgens philosophy or tactics are or how going 343 would change them, or if they'd change at all.

In reality the formations are really irrelevant as just changing around where each of the 11 players stand at ko, doesn't imply or equate to a change of philosophy or tactics.  They also vary and change thoughout the course of our games.

For example, the 3 at the back idea, we generally do have 3 at the back when attacking.  Those 3 would be the 2 cbs and the sitting cm but they are also generally a lot higher up the pitch than say Chelsea's 3.  The difference therefore is the "philosophy" of the managers where Conte is defend first, attack second and Jürgen is attack first, defend second. 

So just saying lets go 343 and be defensive would require a totally different mindset or "philosophy" and also different players to the ones we currently have.  To go 343 and be defensive we need to counter attack and none of our attacking players have the pace to do so.  Nor do we have 2 dcms who will protect the 3 and none of our cbs are good at the "low block" defending required to make it work.

If you've opened the thread because you feel he needs to change the philosophy/tactics/formations to help us become harder to beat or better defensively then check out his stats from his Dortmund days, the seasons just before and the seasons of his Title wins.  His philosophy/tactics/formations don't change but the defending stats do.  It took him a couple of years to improve it, both on the training pitch and with players but they got there and became very difficult to beat and even more difficult to score against.

The flexibility thing, being less stubborn, gegenpressing won't work, we've been found out brigade are phrases thought up and propogated by experts, pundits and our rivals fans to console themselves with the hope that he won't replicate his Dortmund success at Liverpool.

Everything I wanted to say in these 2 posts.
Top work

The question is, should Klopp Be More Flexible With His Footballing Philosophy? My answer is that once he has experienced a whole array of situations in the English game such as; being complacent against lower teams in the league, being 3-1 up against a good footballing team who aren't going to give in - then losing, being 1-0 or 2-1 up with 6 or 7 minutes left and drawing, losing 3-2 after being 2-0 up, losing 2 Cup Finals, losing games early on in the season against promoted sides, once he has a wealth of information and experience to call upon I think he will be flexible and successful. He has only had about 16 months in our game, once he's had another summer transfer window and a bit more experience then we just see the fruits of his philosophy and flexibility.

Just one point that I've not heard in any of the topics, if he took the FA Cup just a little more serious and played say just 3 reserves in the Cup tie v Plymouth at home, the chances are we would have won, that would have given him all last week to prepare for the Swansea game instead of travelling down to Plymouth and back mid-week and I think we could have raced out of the traps at 12.30pm on Saturday.

3 cb's (matip lovren klavan/gomez)
2 dm's (hendo wijnaldum/can)
2 wingbacks playing very high (lallana milner/moreno)
3 up top rotating (firmino/origi coutinho mane)

No AFCON = Matip and Mane available, I'm sure we would have beaten Swansea and Sunderland (5 points extra) and perhaps even Utd and gained 7 points. Imagine if Coutinho and Matip were fit vs Bournemouth, how about if Sakho were around? Possibly another 3 points?

As for us being sussed out, yeah, sure, everyone knows how we play, but they also know how Barca, Chelsea, Spurs, last season Leicester, Real Madrid, Bayern, Dortmund and Juventus play etc. The difference is, they either have a strong squad full of quality cover or been lucky with injury, thus being able to field a strong team week in, week out.

The main problem is the lack of depth in quality as we have been unlucky losing our 3 key players due to injury or AFCON. Then you have Sakho, our 2nd best defender at our club, so one could say 4 key players. So, the problem isn't the formation, nor is it the philosophy, we just needed a bit of luck, and failing that, you need quality players to cover.

That's exactly my point mate, Jugen will know if he needs to change formation or whatever needs doing, if any of us knew what the f*ck we were on about we would managers of top clubs, pointless.

Agreed. But I feel we can still discuss the matter though

Short answer for me is yes.

In general is philosophy is top notch and pre Christmas it was both working a treat and great to watch. But since half time in the city game that's changed.

Its probably a combo of things. Lets be honest losing certain players hasn't helped. But the biggest problem for me which I touched on in the last topic I started is that we just continue in the same approach no matter how the game is going. No change of tactic, formation or player. What I mean by player is for example, Swansea at Anfield Saturday, parked the bus. We needed players who could give us something attacking wise, particularly out wide. Trent A-A for example would have given us that more than Clyne would. Gomez would have given more at carrying the ball out from the back than Klavan. Something that would have created more space for our midfield a times.

Most annoying for me which I pointed out to my 8 year old who I think was afraid of me at this stage was the amount of crosses into the box when we had nobody in there or certainly nobody who was going to win a header. Yet when we had Benteke we wouldn't put any crosses in. Baffling.

In my team for the game tomorrow I opted for 3-4-1-2. The 2 being vital to me, Sturridge needs to be an out and out striker not right or left side and Firmino would be his perfect foil. The 1 being Coutinho. Go and do what you want son free role. And as important as the front 2 the central 2 creating a play maker, Lallana, giving us a cutting edge from the midfield, seeing things and getting into the box from deep. Molby recently called him our iniesta! That can easily become a 3 4 3 a 4 4 2 or a 4 3 3 as the game goes.

So in short I don't think any team can be successful in any sport by putting there faith in just 1 system to see them through and that's why were falling just short a the minute 

It's a good topic to discuss Rush but you've not actually given your views on what you believe Jurgens philosophy or tactics are or how going 343 would change them, or if they'd change at all.

In reality the formations are really irrelevant as just changing around where each of the 11 players stand at ko, doesn't imply or equate to a change of philosophy or tactics.  They also vary and change thoughout the course of our games.

For example, the 3 at the back idea, we generally do have 3 at the back when attacking.  Those 3 would be the 2 cbs and the sitting cm but they are also generally a lot higher up the pitch than say Chelsea's 3.  The difference therefore is the "philosophy" of the managers where Conte is defend first, attack second and Jürgen is attack first, defend second. 

So just saying lets go 343 and be defensive would require a totally different mindset or "philosophy" and also different players to the ones we currently have.  To go 343 and be defensive we need to counter attack and none of our attacking players have the pace to do so.  Nor do we have 2 dcms who will protect the 3 and none of our cbs are good at the "low block" defending required to make it work.

If you've opened the thread because you feel he needs to change the philosophy/tactics/formations to help us become harder to beat or better defensively then check out his stats from his Dortmund days, the seasons just before and the seasons of his Title wins.  His philosophy/tactics/formations don't change but the defending stats do.  It took him a couple of years to improve it, both on the training pitch and with players but they got there and became very difficult to beat and even more difficult to score against.

The flexibility thing, being less stubborn, gegenpressing won't work, we've been found out brigade are phrases thought up and propogated by experts, pundits and our rivals fans to console themselves with the hope that he won't replicate his Dortmund success at Liverpool.

For me, I'm not that bothered with the actual formation, though for the sake of the thread, I'd definitely like to give 3-4-3 a shot, mainly because it freshens things up and it pushes Milner into a more familiar forward role, and Clyne can focus on what he does best, defend, and only worry about getting the ball forward to Mane, when we attack. Henderson the steel in midfield, and Lallana the creative spark alongside looks good too. Studge, Firmino, Couts we all know about. I also like that 3-4-3 is quite flexible and can easily turn into 4-3-3, or 5-3-2 simply by shifting Milner back 20 feet (4-3-3). 5-3-2 with Mane dropping back as an attacking wingback with Milner doing the same, and shifting Couts back into midfield alongside Henderson and Lallana is, whilst more of a stretch, definitely possible.

I also do not think Klopp's high tempo pressing style will be sustainable for the entire Prem season what with 38 games, two cups, and a possible third cup (champions league) next season. The prem is tough, physical, and fast paced for the most part, and the games come thick and fast. Perhaps a less 'up and at em' philosophy and a more energy efficient mindset will serves us better. I suppose we'll know much more come May. Four bodies in midfield would help us gain more of a footing from which to launch our attacks, or indeed press. We'll have less ground to cover with 4 in the middle of the park. That's the theory at least.

Klopp said he'd like heavy metal football, and whilst we shouldn't think that means hammering at the opposition for 90 minutes, I think it does give a little insight into how Klopp thinks. I wouldn't want his philosophy to be more defensive than attack though, I'd like to keep us on the front foot as it were, but I think how we go about that might need reigning in somehow. For me, I've been saying we've looked leggy for about the last 3 games now, and the game against Swansea I saw little to no pressing. Then again, I saw precious little of anything (other than Firmino). This might be due to no Mane and Matip, or it might be indicative of something more serious.

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Rodgers had a similar thread

Was thinking the exact same thing. Put the knives away lads were doing way better than expected this season anyone who says were not is f***in delusional. We finished 8th last season in case anyone forgot   

Go old fashioned a two strikers up front - Origi and Sturridge. Worked well in our league cup match against Tottenham which we should have won more comfortably. Both players played off each other well and looked to be the alternative should any of our front line get (ie Coutinho/Mane) get injured.

For me, I'm not that bothered with the actual formation, though for the sake of the thread, I'd definitely like to give 3-4-3 a shot, mainly because it freshens things up and it pushes Milner into a more familiar forward role, and Clyne can focus on what he does best, defend, and only worry about getting the ball forward to Mane, when we attack. Henderson the steel in midfield, and Lallana the creative spark alongside looks good too. Studge, Firmino, Couts we all know about. I also like that 3-4-3 is quite flexible and can easily turn into 4-3-3, or 5-3-2 simply by shifting Milner back 20 feet (4-3-3). 5-3-2 with Mane dropping back as an attacking wingback with Milner doing the same, and shifting Couts back into midfield alongside Henderson and Lallana is, whilst more of a stretch, definitely possible.

I also do not think Klopp's high tempo pressing style will be sustainable for the entire Prem season what with 38 games, two cups, and a possible third cup (champions league) next season. The prem is tough, physical, and fast paced for the most part, and the games come thick and fast. Perhaps a less 'up and at em' philosophy and a more energy efficient mindset will serves us better. I suppose we'll know much more come May. Four bodies in midfield would help us gain more of a footing from which to launch our attacks, or indeed press. We'll have less ground to cover with 4 in the middle of the park. That's the theory at least.

Klopp said he'd like heavy metal football, and whilst we shouldn't think that means hammering at the opposition for 90 minutes, I think it does give a little insight into how Klopp thinks. I wouldn't want his philosophy to be more defensive than attack though, I'd like to keep us on the front foot as it were, but I think how we go about that might need reigning in somehow. For me, I've been saying we've looked leggy for about the last 3 games now, and the game against Swansea I saw little to no pressing. Then again, I saw precious little of anything (other than Firmino). This might be due to no Mane and Matip, or it might be indicative of something more serious.

My brains hurting a bit so bear with me.

The first sentence is exactly what I said in my first post.  The formation or starting positions don't matter as it's constantly changing depending on what's happening in the game.

Milner higher up the pitch??  How much higher up do you want him mate?  He's virtually camped in the oppositions final 3rd as it is, he won't/can't get any further forward playing in midfield.  Something which he's already said himself in a recent interview about playing as a LB for Jürgen.

This bit will be controversial but I'm not sure Clyne could defend in a 3?  He doesn't stop crosses, he's not tall enough to win headers, he's crap at the far post but he's quick and tackles well.

Mane already does his fair share of defensive work but you're keeping him further away from goal having him in midfield so you're nullifying his strengths.

Hendo and Lallana are already doing what you want them to be doing so no change there either, except again Lallana will be further away from goal.

Jurgens high tempo pressing versus a less up n at em philosophy?  Have you watched how slow and labourious we've been playing since we lost our mojo?  People hate it, we look like sh*t and it's ineffective as the last few performances and results have shown.

As for whether it's possible to maintain the gegenpress, we don't know yet because we've had to change how we play for the last few weeks but he probably preempted that possibility by bringing in the new fitness, conditioning and nutritian people.

We have changed how we play recently, trying to counteract the bus parkers without our regular starters.  We've started playing from the wings more and using crosses more to get in behind the packed defenses because we've been missing both Lallana in midfield, Coutinho on the left and Firmino through the middle where the gegenpress, quick transitions and fluid attacks were working perfectly fine against those bus parkers earlier in the season.

Still it's a good topic mate.