How Far Have We Moved On?

Since Houllier’s departure in the Summer of 2004 how far have we moved on? We’re still a very sound defensive side, we still look for one forward to do it all for us and we still rely heavily on our skipper Steven Gerrard. In terms of individuals I think we have a better looking side now, especially down the middle, but as a team I don’t think we’re that far advanced to what we were under the Frenchman. We’re still very much a cup team with our hopes of Premiership glory being forgotten by mid December more often than not.

Our success in Europe’s biggest competition in the Champions League would suggest we’ve come on leaps and bounds but that’s just one competition. We’re not firing on the domestic front, just two domestic cup finals in four years really isn’t good enough for a club of our size just like three in six years under Houllier wasn’t good enough. So have we progressed in the cups on the whole or is just in Europe’s premier competition we look that good? Personally I don’t fell we have moved on too great on the whole in the cups, which is a massive shame because for the last nine or ten years we’ve been a cup side, our hopes riding on a cup run because the league is out of grasp far too early.

As for the Premiership well the closest we’ve been is eight points behind, which again is a massive disappointment for this club. That eight point deficit was under Houllier in 2001/02, whereas Benitez has managed to take us nine points off the eventual winners in 2005/06. Whichever way you look at it, we haven’t moved on far enough. Maybe the other sides are improving as well, but we’re not improving with them. Obviously this brings the whole money issue up but I’ll come to that next.

OK so the money issue. A firm, firm favourite amongst a lot of fans as to why we’re incapable of winning the league. However it doesn’t wash with me. Other clubs outspend others but it’s the sides that spend a little who finish higher. Our main rivals Everton are prime example. Every year they spend a pittance compared to the likes of Newcastle, Tottenham or Aston Villa and for three out of the last four seasons they’ve finished above both Newcastle and Villa. So if a side with a very small squad like Everton’s can finish above sides that outspend them why can’t we? Sticking with the money, because again a lot of fans like to lay blame on our owners, these sort of problems rarely happened with Houllier in charge. He had to make do with Rick Parry just like Benitez, he had to sell to buy just like Benitez and he never got a new stadium either just like Benitez. There must be something with Benitez and considering he’s got a track record of bad relationships with owners due his time at Valencia, he is by no way blameless as to why our boardroom troubles have not moved on since his arrival.

In terms of quality first team transfers I think it’s pretty equal. Both have brought in some real quality players and both have brought in some real let downs. We could sit here and compare each one individually but it’s going to be the same result, a relatively equal transfer market. However where Benitez does edge it, is in his youth signings. We’ve now got one of the best youth systems in Europe filled with quality from all over the world. Our recent success in the youth and reserve level confirm this. The future does look promising.

Our style of play hasn’t moved on a great deal either. Under Houllier we were very sound defensively, very much like now. Under Houllier we relied on goals from Owen now it’s Torres. Under Houllier we had Didi Hamman and Danny Murphy who wouldn’t link up with the front line in open play now it’s Alonso and Mascherano. And under both foreign managers we’ve looked on a regular basis to Gerrard to make something happen. We’re still boring to watch with the odd glimpse of the old pass and move days returning. Sadly they haven’t returned consistently.

Overall I think we’ve moved on in certain areas and went backwards in recent years which is why we’re in an all too familiar position.

thoughts?

1959/74   Bill Shankly (15 Years)
1974/83   Bob Paisley (9 Years)
1983/85   Joe Fagan (2 years)
1985/91   Kenny Dalglish (6 Years)
1991/94   Graeme Souness (3 Years)
1994/98   Roy Evans (4 Years)
1998/98   Roy Evans / Gérard Houllier
1998/04   Gérard Houllier (6 Years)

I have always believed Liverpool FC departed from a very successful working formula. See the eras of Bill Shankly, Bob Paisley and Joe Fagan can be viewed as One Dynasty that continued to reign. There was Continuity. Shankly groomed Paisley and Joe Fagan, and when he (Shankly) retired, Paisley took over, fagan was still there; They knew everything about the club, Paisley managed the reserve team when Shankly managed the club. When Paisley finally retired, Joe Fagan was there to continue to management of the Club; and the club continued to record successes after successes!

Somewhere along the line, we dropped the ball, somewhere between King Kenny & Graeme Souness, it had become a one man show, the Bootroom dynamics had been relegated to the background and LFC joined the league of clubs that hired and fired Managers. The Press room came in and we aired it all out there.

Look at the Top 3 clubs, Alex Ferguson has been at the helms of the affairs at Man U now for 20+ Years, that is a dynasty there; Arsene Winger at Arsenal for 15+ years; talk about longevity. Chelsea on the other hand splattered a lot of money and bought the bigger names, won the Premiership twice for their 'expenditure'. So you got two options! Continuity (Long term gains) or Spend big and splatter cash (short term wins).

The way I see it, the Manager needs to continue to build the team, and groom his youths/reserves! Maybe in 3 years with Rafa Benitez, we would have returned to our winning ways. There has to be CONTINUITY FOR A CLUB TO SUCCEED.

*EDIT*

What we actually need to do is not 'Move On' but 'Go Back' to the formula..

Other clubs outspend others but it’s the sides that spend a little who finish higher. Our main rivals Everton are prime example. Every year they spend a pittance compared to the likes of Newcastle, Tottenham or Aston Villa and for three out of the last four seasons they’ve finished above both Newcastle and Villa.

So which teams who spend no money are finishing above us every season? Er, none.

You actually make the perfect argument for keeping Benitez. Everton do very well on a fairly tight budget. But what cups have they won? And since 2005, how many times have they finished in the top 4? And Moyes has also had some very inconsistent seasons, his team have played very dull football for years, and he's been there since 2002. Despite no trophies, he does a good job. So does that not also speak about continuity? Wenger, Ferguson - 35 years between them. Again, continuity.

The teams you quote as having spent big but fallen behind Everton are those who are always changing managers. Villa did it until Deadly Doug left, and Spurs and Newcastle both have new managers. Again, longevity. Spurs and Newcastle also have Directors of Football - again, don't give the manager what he wants and he cannot do his job.

The Houllier/Benitez comparisons are lame, and need too much time to pull apart. If you can't see the tactical variations, then I worry. Under Houllier we defended 20 yards further back and so the game became about going long to Heskey and Owen. Yes, we have two holding midfielders now, but they are there to let the others go forward. Our midfield scored 50+ goals last season, while under Houllier we'd struggle to get 25. I'd pick an attacking quartet of Torres, Keane, Babel and Gerrard over anything we had back then.

Also, what striker did Houllier buy to compare with Torres? Houllier did a good job, but we're miles ahead of where we were between 2002 and 2004, when we were dry humped in Europe, failed to reach the Champions League one year, and finished with 64 and 60 points in his last two years, one of which was spent in the UEFA Cup. That, coupled with the improvements of Chelsea, has made it that much harder.

I agree wholeheartedly with solodee, that the key to success is stability - Ferguson and Wenger have had many years to assemble their teams, to fine tune the youth systems as suits them best, to establish themselves fully with the fans and directors. Continual change is a recipe for disaster, Newcastle Utd is the perfect example of this. Benitez has had four years, with a mixed amount of success and disappointment during his short reign.

I would say that we have moved forward in terms of the squad, whilst it still does not have the depth of quality of Man Utd, the first team is not far from being on a par with theirs. Benitez has tried to set his own foundations in this area - almost no players remain from Houllier's spell at the club, which has both a positive and negative effect. The positive is that he is obviously trying to put together a team that will play as he wishes, in the style he believes will bring us success. The downside of this is that the progress the team makes is hindered by the continual changes going on year by year.

What we need to decide is whether or not Benitez is the correct man for the job. We can see he has a long-term vision for the club based on his investment in youth players and complete overhaul of the squad. Obviously this is all for nothing is we don't think his vision is the one to bring us the trophies and the success we desire.

dunlop_liddell_shankly, I have difficulty following your argument that money should not be an issue when considering our progress over the last few years. IMO it has a direct influence on our progress - if a manager is not able to buy his first-choice players for each position on the pitch, then it is harder to fault him for not getting the results. Taking this into consideration, with what he has at his disposal, he has managed to progress at the same rate as the other top sides, neither getting ahead of them, nor falling behind. As for using Everton as an example, I don't think they will continue to finish ahead of the sides you have mentioned, and I don't think that using their team as a blueprint will improve us at all.

My conclusion is that we have, as I stated above, "moved on" since the Houllier era. Other teams around us have also moved on, at a similar rate. When you consider the squad upheaval we have had during this time, I would consider our relative consistency and trophy haul as being acceptable. For me, we now need to back the manager, as his foundations are laid. Less and less changes should be made to the first team, and we should now start to reap the benefits of the last four years of hard work.

solodee you are 100% correct when you refer to the successful system we had that was set up by Bill Shankly and continued with Bob Paisley and Joe Fagan.I must point out we also had presidents,chairmen and directors running the club  for the benefit of the club and furthermore supporting the manager and his staff.
                             I feel our decline started towards the end of Kenny Dalglish,s reign as manager and the arrival of Souness.Kenny made some bad buys who were just not good enough to wear the RED of Liverpool Football Club.Some posters might not like what I am saying but that is how i honestly feel.As regards  todays owners there is no way they can compare with our past owners and RAFA can hold his head high for accomplishing so much under very difficult conditions.

Comparing Managers is like comparing breakfasts take Houlier his start was good but once he lost it it was never to return Rafa is a different kind you get what you see and he lives and breathes lfc and although the players you picked out by Houlier you compare Owen to Torres and Didi and Danny Murphy to Alonso ans Mascherano  and the only one you have an argument for is Didi who may have been let go to early but that's management.

The players brought in by Benitas both youth team and first team are good players but he has dropped hints that sometimes he has lost out to a lot of players because we have a board and c.o who just wont finance the players he wants and yes it's easy to use Everton as a comparison on where they and we finish in the league Everton always start well but once the season gets in gear they drop off ,why, because their strength in depth and quality just ain't good enough, I always wonder with these teams how far would they get in the league if they reached the last 8 in the CL, maybe then one or two of their supporters might realise you have to have strength and quality in depth to get anywhere in football nowadays

Houlier never had the interference that Rafa has had and maybe Rafa wasn't wise to kick of the row with the yanks but that is Rafa but one thing I am sure of is working under this lot is they would test the patience of a saint and from Shanks to Dalgliesh not one would have put up with the crap Rafa has had to they would have gone almost first sign of any interference, my respect for the man is immense.

Rafa Benitas has done wonders with this club and I know we never start the season has world beaters each year but after 5years of Gerrard Houlier we had an ordinary youth & reserve team and look at them now also our first team isn't that bad, Torres, Stevie G, Keeno, Mascha, Skrtel, Carra ,Pepe, Babel, Benyoun, Sami, Arbeloa, Aurelio, Agger, Dosena, Riera, Kuyt, Lucas, I wonder what Houliers full squad was I know he had good players like Stevie G, Owen, Carra , Sami H, but as you see Rafa still has some players from Houliers days (he's not that daft). Being has Rafa has rebuilt the squad from top to bottom I think if he was given the money that Ferguson has had we would not still be debating the title.

Dont let the yanks hear that "The Chosen One" is doing a good job on very little investment or they'll want him here getting us to win the CL and title all in the same season. seriously though your bit on Spurs and Villa spending loads and not doing anything as been true up until now but with them investing in a manager first before they spent millions is the right way, only thing though money when you have unlimited amounts can make a difference as proved with Chelsea, one Chelsea the league can accommodate but now we have a new player who wants all the best players who are already in England and depending on chairman and player we shall see a lot of movement in Jan. and that's another reason to give Rafa real help as he has been through this in Spain and he has dealt with this scenario in the past.

We’re still very much a cup team with our hopes of Premiership glory being forgotten by mid December more often than not.

Although too early to comment on this season, obviously.

As for the Premiership well the closest we’ve been is eight points behind, which again is a massive disappointment for this club. That eight point deficit was under Houllier in 2001/02, whereas Benitez has managed to take us nine points off the eventual winners in 2005/06.

Simplistic way to look at it, and it depends on the opposition.

Benitez has delivered us our second most succesful League performance EVER in the history of the club.  One that would have walked the league in the 70s,80s and even early 90s.  The fact is the top teams in the league now get far more points and dominate the rest of the league more than they ever did. 


We have a substantially improved youth squad now, our first team is better than it was under Houllier, we are consistently in the Champions League and one of the highest ranked clubs in Europe.

I'd imagine when Benitez does go there will be no natural internal successor but that is a bridge we (hopefully) won't cross just yet.

Good topic starter.

Have to admit I havent had the time to read all the posts in here, but will read them soon enough.

Its a very good question to ask and its probably at the right time to ask in fairness.

We're entering Rafas' fith year at the helm of LFC, and TBH I'm starting to get slightly worried about the way we've headed over the last two years in particular. What has creped into my mind over the last 18 months is something I see as an almost parrallel situation in the last couple of years during the Houllier era. Mind baffling team selections, substitutions and some strange excuses or comments made to the media etc by Benitez.

Over the last two years I feel we have slightly stagnated under Rafa and at times we seem to have taken a step backwards instead of two steps forward. I think its only fair for fans now to start questioning Rafa and where he has taken us, lets be honest after five years spent at the club and the millions spent, is a little to much to ask for a genuine title challenge ?

I think not, and I'm hoping this year (although I still have some doubts) that Rafa and the boys will make a fist of it in the league. For LFC'S sake, the players sake and Rafas sake because I honestly dont see the owners hanging onto Rafa after another unsuccesful season in the domestic campaign. I think the Spanaird knows this, hence the reason hes gone for players like Barry and Keane who are well and truly into their prime and know the English game inside out.

No doubt though Rafa has improved the squad ten fold from what it was when he first got it, players like Reina, Alonso, Garcia, Mascha, Torres, Agger, have improved us immensley. We do have IMO one of the strongest core of players, or spine of players if you like in the league. And it truly amazes me we dont do that little bit better with the quality that we have. Its partially down to Rafas gameplans an tactics and maybe the apparent lack of support in the transfer market from our owners.
But even if Rafa had the money to buy who he wanted, I dont know if that would still et us to be where we want to be. I think his tactics and possibly his pragmatic approach to our games hold us back. And IMO unless he learns to go for a more expansive approach, which after five years I cant really see TBH, if he hasnt done it now I dont think he'll start to change his methods. But I fear we'll struggle to continue to climb the ever increasingly high ladder our rivals have laid out to us.

I think we have come some way under him, lets not forget Europe where he has put us back on the map and is arguably one of the top top managers in Europe as he has proven that with us each year we've been in the CL. Credit where its due !

Domestically though I do feel we've slightly stagnated and in all honesty league wise I dont think we're that much better off than we was under Houllier. Yes we've improved the team a hell of alot, but so have United, Chelsea and to a lesser extent Arsenal, we're just about keeping up with them, rather than being hot on their heels as far as the league goes and we need to improve on this ...... This season !!

And I sincerly I hope we do.

We're entering Rafas' fith year at the helm of LFC, and TBH I'm starting to get slightly worried about the way we've headed over the last two years in particular. What has creped into my mind over the last 18 months is something I see as an almost parrallel situation in the last couple of years during the Houllier era. Mind baffling team selections, substitutions and some strange excususes or comments made to the media etc by Benitez.

Substitute Houllier for Ferguson, and that would equally apply. Managers all get the same criticisms.

Ferguson plays Rooney on the left time and again; Rafa does it once with Keane and he's a nonce. Ferguson plays O'Shea in centre-mid, on the wing, picks supposedly crap players like Fletcher, makes excuses in the media when it doesn't go his way, leaves his best players out of certain games and rotates as heavily, and so on.

Some excellent post in this topics especially by solodee, ayrton, invisibleman and Bartman can not add anything they haven't already mentioned.  But as Solodee as suggested that being short of funds the only way forward for me is continuity as changing managers will be an expensive processes, and we just don't seem to have the finances to take such an approach.  Everton are doing well because they have stuck with Moyes, Newcastle are doing poorly because they're constantly changing managers.

Some excellent posts in this thread.

In terms of how far we've come since Houllier left, a long long way. We were a UEFA cup side. We have now been in two European Cup Finals since then.

Yes, we finished second, but in comparison to our own performances we have fared better in recent years.

We have kept up with the teams around us, without landing the top targets and without splashing as much as United or Chelsea. Arsenal arguably are in the same boat, but Wenger had already got the ball rolling on his youth setup before Benitez was even here. We've also kept ahead of a chasing pack. Everton finished ahead of us once, but it weren't a bad season overall considering it was Benitez's first in charge

But this is nothing that hasn't already been mentioned.

We're entering Rafas' fith year at the helm of LFC, and TBH I'm starting to get slightly worried about the way we've headed over the last two years in particular. What has creped into my mind over the last 18 months is something I see as an almost parrallel situation in the last couple of years during the Houllier era. Mind baffling team selections, substitutions and some strange excuses or comments made to the media etc by Benitez.

Over the last two years I feel we have slightly stagnated under Rafa and at times we seem to have taken a step backwards instead of two steps forward. I think its only fair for fans now to start questioning Rafa and where he has taken us, lets be honest after five years spent at the club and the millions spent, is a little to much to ask for a genuine title challenge ?

Over the past two years, I feel Rafa has still kept us at the top of European competition. I can't see parallels to Houllier with regards to excuses in the media. There has been some pretty confounding circumstances in Rafa's reign, to be fair, compared to the climate Houllier worked under. His excuses were that of his own making, whilst Benitez has had to put up with some sh*te.

I also don't feel we've stagnated. Our performances at the start of this season aren't upto scratch, I know. But we're gelling together again, after some key absences at the start of campaign and late transfers in. With regards to fans questioning Rafa's tactics and decisions. I feel lucky that Rafa is still here after the trouble 'backstage' And Ferguson has established a fantastic side over a long period of time. I feel Benitez has set us up for the long term. People won't mind the first 5 years when we're winning leagues year in, year out.

You only have to look at Wenger, who never finished below 2nd in his first 9 seasons, to see how English football has changed.

Since 2005 he's finished 3rd once and 4th twice, a worse record than Benitez. This is an expert in winning the English title, and yet he's well off the pace in recent years.

In terms of how far we've come since Houllier left, a long long way. We were a UEFA cup side. We have now been in two European Cup Finals since then.

I think that is a excellent critique, under Houllier we were an excellent UEFA cup side, and now under Benitez we are a great champions league side.  Houllier was a good manager, you could say that he was the one that started to build a big squad of players and Benitez has given quality and depth to the squad.

I think that is a excellent critique, under Houllier we were an excellent UEFA cup side, and now under Benitez we are a great champions league side. 

But by the time Rafa arrived, we weren't even an excellent UEFA Cup side anymore. We were pretty lame in Europe in his final season.

I'm not looking to cause arguements just stating another point of view, maybe to make people think a bit more.

If it was down to "how long a manager has been in charge" surely Crewe would of won everything in sight as Dario Gradi was their manager for 20 odd years, that's in keeping with the logic. Same goes for Barry Fry down at Peterborough who had just under a decade of sole management with the Posh. Or is time just another reason that seems to fit the bill for Liverpool but we can discount others who haven't had success with the same ruling. Managers who spend long times at clubs will have success which is why Crewe were known as yoyo club under Gradi's 24 year reign. They were up, down, up, down throughout. So again this ruling is just for Liverpool and doesn't apply to lower league football? OK fair enough, at least we're staying consistant if nothing else.

As for the money, Leeds (remember them) went onto the Champions League semis in 2001...remember what happened that season? Three trophies found their way to Anfield. All the money being splashed about by the Yorkshire club won them F**k all as well as a fourth place finish behind United, Arsenal and of course Liverpool. So if we could finish ahead of old money bags Leeds in the early 2000s, why not today? Leeds at the time were breaking the transfer records with players such as Rio Ferdinand (a then british transfer record as well as the most expensive defender in europe) What's the difference? Is it because O'Leary only had four years in charge of Leeds?

This thread actually isn't having a pop at Benitez, it's just wondering to see how far as a football club (and not one compitition) we have come. And since the most recent arguements tend to be time and money I thought I'd take a look at just how time and money have affected us as well as other clubs to see if the reasons hold truth. Like I said in the opening post I think we have progressed in certain areas and we've went backwards in others which is why on the whole we're in that very familiar position of third or fourth come the end of the season.

Substitute Houllier for Ferguson, and that would equally apply. Managers all get the same criticisms.

Ferguson plays Rooney on the left time and again; Rafa does it once with Keane and he's a nonce. Ferguson plays O'Shea in centre-mid, on the wing, picks supposedly crap players like Fletcher, makes excuses in the media when it doesn't go his way, leaves his best players out of certain games and rotates as heavily, and so on.

Well I'm not totally sure what Fergie does with his teams, but if what you say is true why is it working for him and not us ? How can Fergie who 'apparently' plays the likes of Flecther and O'shea out of position have such a stranglehold on the league. After all we're playing better calibre players out of position at LFC, Keane on the left, Gerrard anywhere bar his own admissions in the center of midfield, Kuyt on the right hand side.

Personally I dont believe that Ferguson tinkers with his sides as much as Rafa does, infact I dont think there is a manager in the Prem right now who tinkers as much as Rafa. Last season I saw an amazing statistic or it may have been the season before where Rafa rotated his players and their positions upto an amazing 75 times in the first fifteen games of the season. Now I'm sorry no matter how you'd like to dress Fergie and his apparent rotating policies up that figure there IMO was a fundamnetal error to where our season went wrong. Changing players and there positions in those sorts of figures is bordering on ridiculous, and is it any wonder or coincedence we're out of the race by October November time.

There is no way in hell a team that is chopped and changed around as much as Rafa has done will find cohesiveness and stability in the side, hence the reason we've never had a serious title challenge.

You only have to look at Wenger, who never finished below 2nd in his first 9 seasons, to see how English football has changed.

Since 2005 he's finished 3rd once and 4th twice, a worse record than Benitez. This is an expert in winning the English title, and yet he's well off the pace in recent years. 
 
 

I do like the way alot of people use Fergies barren seven years as an ample marker or excuse to give Rafa the time and "stabilty" at the helm of LFC. Because its those same people that forget that Wenger won the league within his first two years at the club and got the domestic double with Arsenal.

Going from that quote there ^^ Wenger has in the past built up a dominating side of Viera, Henry, Petit and Seaman etc etc and so on. He is now in his second or third stint as Arsenal manager dismantling his side and building a new era up already with even less cash to spend than us. We're after five years still building up a team or squad capable of doing our first succesfull stint in the league. Wengers won it, dismantled it, won it again dismantled it and building it again.

Going back to Ferguson and the people who use him as the perfect example to give managers time, will this mean that after seven years can we really only question Benitez and where the team is heading as that was the time frame it took Fergie to do it in, although not Wenger ?

Rotation isnt just Rafa's question mark hanging over his head IMO. Seen as we're compairng managers Wenger and Fergie both set up their teams remarkably different to the way we set ours up. They both play more expansive football than us. We go to Villa and stick five men in midfield, two of which are out of position (kuyt and Keane) and look as though we're only going for a draw. Definately when Torres went off any hope of getting three points went with it aswell. I couldnt even imagine Ferguson or Wenger setting their teams up going to Villa just to stiffle the game, they'd go there to win it, and thats another reason IMO they do better in the league than us there manager has instilled a winning mentality in them rather than a disciplined and over cautious one.

When Babel first arrived he commented as much, saying that Liverpool never practise attacking patterns of play but concentrate on defensive plays (or words to that effect)

Like I said before, coming into his fith year at the club and over 200 million pound spent, is it unrealistic to ask for a title challenge from our team ?

I dont expect us to win the league but a challenge would be nice would it not, Rafas almost had the same amount of time Houllier did and has probably spent more than the Frenchman did although Rafa's made alot of money back from his own sales, but thats not the point in my view.

Wenger won the league within his first two years at the club and got the domestic double with Arsenal.

Going from that quote there ^^ Wenger has in the past built up a dominating side of Viera, Henry, Petit and Seaman etc etc and so on. He is now in his second or third stint as Arsenal manager dismantling his side and building a new era up already with even less cash to spend than us. We're after five years still building up a team or squad capable of doing our first succesfull stint in the league. Wengers won it, dismantled it, won it again dismantled it and building it again.

Well, even though I can’t stand Wenger, but his record before the arrival of Benitez is something that deserves credit.  Like you say that he is currently building his third team after making two successful squads.  The moment Benitez was appointed our manager Wenger was celebrating an unbeaten championship record season.  And surprisingly since then he has been trying to engineer his mythical third squad.  For a manger that won the double in his second season he is surely struggling is he not.   Has he suddenly lost his ability to manufacture a successful team or is it that the bar has been raised?

I am not saying that Benitez doesn’t make mistakes all the top managers make mistakes.  He has a vision and is trying achieve the ultimate objective which is to win the title.  But people just want to find floors in his policies.  We have to have a very different strategy to Chelsea and Utd, as we have to nullify their massive financial advantage which is huge.

We have purchased many central midfielder surprisingly our best is Mascherano and second is Alonso, and that is the order of price.  We have purchased many goalies Reina is the best goal keeper.  We have purchased many strikers Torres is our best striker.  Sometimes you can beat the system, but you can’t expect to beat opposition very much if you’re shopping in the wrong end of the market.  It’s just not only about the transfer price, if you look at Deco he was purchased for about 12m and we have purchased Riera for 9m, but I can assure you that Deco will cost probably twice as much in the next 4 years including his personal contract, probably more than Keane will cost us.  So from a bargain basement player that we all think he is if you punch in the figures it just doesn’t sound so good does it.

I'm not looking to cause arguements just stating another point of view, maybe to make people think a bit more.

If it was down to "how long a manager has been in charge" surely Crewe would of won everything in sight as Dario Gradi was their manager for 20 odd years, that's in keeping with the logic. Same goes for Barry Fry down at Peterborough who had just under a decade of sole management with the Posh. Or is time just another reason that seems to fit the bill for Liverpool but we can discount others who haven't had success with the same ruling. Managers who spend long times at clubs will have success which is why Crewe were known as yoyo club under Gradi's 24 year reign. They were up, down, up, down throughout. So again this ruling is just for Liverpool and doesn't apply to lower league football? OK fair enough, at least we're staying consistant if nothing else.

As for the money, Leeds (remember them) went onto the Champions League semis in 2001...remember what happened that season? Three trophies found their way to Anfield. All the money being splashed about by the Yorkshire club won them F**k all as well as a fourth place finish behind United, Arsenal and of course Liverpool. So if we could finish ahead of old money bags Leeds in the early 2000s, why not today? Leeds at the time were breaking the transfer records with players such as Rio Ferdinand (a then british transfer record as well as the most expensive defender in europe) What's the difference? Is it because O'Leary only had four years in charge of Leeds?

This thread actually isn't having a pop at Benitez, it's just wondering to see how far as a football club (and not one compitition) we have come. And since the most recent arguements tend to be time and money I thought I'd take a look at just how time and money have affected us as well as other clubs to see if the reasons hold truth. Like I said in the opening post I think we have progressed in certain areas and we've went backwards in others which is why on the whole we're in that very familiar position of third or fourth come the end of the season.

Here's an interesting article I've dug up from the BBC Sport website (from the 2000-2001 season of course):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/leeds_united/1079406.stm


Leeds top of the spending league

David O'Leary's Leeds are back on top of the Premiership table.

But it is pounds and not points which set the Elland Road club head and shoulders above their rivals.

Leeds, currently languishing in mid-table in the Premiership, are top of the Premiership spending table, calculated over the past five years.

  Big spenders
Leeds - £48,355,000
Liverpool - £46,570,000
Man Utd - £42,205,000
Newcastle - £40,665,000
Spurs - £40,640,000
Chelsea - £38,490,000

O'Leary and his predecessors George Graham and Howard Wilkinson are responsible for a transfer deficit of close to £50m during that period.

Only Gerard Houllier's Liverpool come close to Leeds in terms of spending.

But Elland Road is not the only place to be trading at a huge loss on the transfer market, with big-hitters Liverpool, Manchester United, Newcastle and Tottenham all more than £40m down.

Rio Ferdinand's £18m arrival from West Ham accounts for a major slice of Leeds' loss, and his transfer is also responsible for putting the Londoners handsomely in the black.

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What can be seen from this is that whilst, as you correctly state, Leeds United spent a lot of money during the period in question, the only team close to them in terms of spending was our very own Liverpool. In the 2000-2001 season, we finished one single point ahead of them in the Premiership - the argument could be made that their "big spending" brought them within a hair's breadth of taking our third spot away from us!

We had a highly successful season, but theirs was far from terrible - reaching the Champion's League semi-final was a tremendous exploit. It was a make-or-break time for Leeds, and the tragic deaths of their two supporters stabbed to death in Turkey (Chris Loftus and Kevin Speight RIP) and the off the field mishaps involving Bowyer and Jonathon Woodgate did not help them. In fact, it could be what made the difference between them finishing third or fourth!

Had they been able to continue to assure Champion's League football, upon which the majority of their loans for players were secured, they may have been able to maintain their position in the top four (at that time the top three of course). Unfortunately for them, we know the rest.

As for your argument regarding the continuity of a club's manager as part of a club's success, I have stated previously in this thread that everyone is entitled their own opinion on this. However, once again, for me the key is whether or not we believe we have the right manager for the job! A club who has "yo-yoed" up and down the leagues year in, year out would do well IMO to make a change! However, a club such as Liverpool who's success remains relatively constant during a rebuilding period would do well to think twice before chopping and changing so easily!

Anyway - I'm not looking to argue, it's interesting to exchange ideas on topics like this, and at the end of the day whether people agree 100% or not doesn't matter, as there wouldn't be much need for a forum in that case!

"Like I said before, coming into his fith year at the club and over 200 million pound spent, is it unrealistic to ask for a title challenge from our team ?"


It's not £200m spent, you have to work on NET spend.

How did Rafa afford Keane? By selling Crouch, who was also part of that supposed "£200m". How did Rafa afford Mascherano? By selling Sissoko.

It's not like Chelsea or even United to a degree, who don't have to sell to buy. Rafa has had to sell many of his own signings to afford new ones.

I do like the way alot of people use Fergies barren seven years as an ample marker or excuse to give Rafa the time and "stabilty" at the helm of LFC. Because its those same people that forget that Wenger won the league within his first two years at the club and got the domestic double with Arsenal.

A) Fergie is used as proof that a great manager can take time to win the league. Equally, Wenger proves some managers can win it quicker. So what? Throwing Wenger back at me does not alter the fact that Ferguson's record was sh*te in his first five years, and that overhauling a massive club takes time. Also, how many times has Wenger won it since Fergie built his new side and since Chelsea spent their billions while having a top manager? (i.e. not Ranieri). Answer: none.

B) Wenger's trophy haul in his 3rd, 4th and 5th seasons? Sweet F**k all. Sure, he won the double quickly, just as Rafa won the Champions League and FA Cup quickly. But it took Wenger a lot longer to make Arsenal a force and not a one-season wonder. Equally, his record in Europe was bloody awful until 2006 - a decade into the job!

A) Fergie is used as proof that a great manager can take time to win the league. Equally, Wenger proves some managers can win it quicker. So what? Throwing Wenger back at me does not alter the fact that Ferguson's record was sh*te in his first five years, and that overhauling a massive club takes time. Also, how many times has Wenger won it since Fergie built his new side and since Chelsea spent their billions while having a top manager? (I.e. not Ranieri). Answer: none.

You are correct about Ferguson being crap in his first 5 years,if my memory is correct I believe he was close to getting the bullet.B4 Ferguson Manure went through quite a few managers who were failures and were got rid of.Maybe someone can come up with a list of managers since Busby.

You are correct about Ferguson being crap in his first 5 years,if my memory is correct I believe he was close to getting the bullet.B4 Ferguson Manure went through quite a few managers who were failures and were got rid of.Maybe someone can come up with a list of managers since Busby.

Wilf McGuinness 1969
Matt Busby (briefly returned) 1970
Frank O'Farrell 1971
Tommy Docherty 1972
Dave Sexton 1977
Ron Aktinson 1981

Wilf McGuinness 1969
Matt Busby (briefly returned) 1970
Frank O'Farrell 1971
Tommy Docherty 1972
Dave Sexton 1977
Ron Aktinson 1981

Thanks for that,you saved me digging into the records,how long did Atkinson (All that glitters is gold necklaces ) last. I thought there was someone else between him and Ferguson.