Houllier v Benitez

Fair enough mate and it's obviously difficult to argue with those facts. But are we taking this Carling Cup side as Kenny's or half Kenny's, half Rafa's?

Think we will have to count players after the F.A. CUP final mate but Kenny had 7 of his players in the League cup final team if you count Gerrard as one of Kenny's.

Rafa had a running in the CL and making heaps of money. The BEST team does not win the LEAGUE, the strongest squad wins the league. THe strongest SQUAD costs money because you have to pay 11 superstar 100 k to sit on the bench for a majority of the season. FFS Ferguspn spunked 90 mill on Hargreaves, ANderson, Carrick and Nani amongst others. You can say decent players but in reality if Rafa had 90 mill AND WAGES to supplement the first team he would have won the league MAKE NO MISTAKE

Think we will have to count players after the F.A. CUP final mate

Well mate in the Carling Cup 8 of the 14 players who took to the field played under Rafa. 7 of the 14 players were bought by Kenny (including one of those players who played under Rafa - Bellamy).

I can't see the FA Cup winning side being too different.

Loved both of them, thought they both had their successes cut short by factors not under their control (health & H&G). Who was better is too hard to say for me, will remember them both with the utmost respect and gratitude, 2 people I would absolutely love to have a conversation with if I had the chance.

On the subject of Rafa, would I have him back, absolutely but only after Kenny is given a fair crack and hopefully retires in 10 years or so with a few Leagues in the bag.

Well mate in the Carling Cup 8 of the 14 players who took to the field played under Rafa. 7 of the 14 players were bought by Kenny (including one of those players who played under Rafa - Bellamy).

I can't see the FA Cup winning side being too different.

Are you trying to complicate things?

That means I have to include Hamann, Smicer and Cisse as Houllier players in the CL FINAL
Hamann as a Houllier player in the F.A. CUP FINAL

I am happy whichever way we work it out.

Houllier and Benitez - two names that bring a smile to my face. Houllier was my first Liverpool manager. He oversaw the career of my favourite player as a kid, Michael Owen, who despite his moronic career moves of late, is still a player I greatly admire and would thank for the good times he gave us. As for Benitez - what hasn't been said about the man? Two men who brought such good times for us and were so unlucky not to bring at least one league title between them. Forever legends of Liverpool!

A lot of Liverpool fans would like Rafa back whenever Kenny leaves the same fans never wanted houllier back why do people think this is.

A lot of Liverpool fans would like Rafa back whenever Kenny leaves the same fans never wanted houllier back why do people think this is.

Because people have a misguided belief that Rafa fought against Hicks and Gillett.

I think people are thinking it's disrespecful to Kenny to be talking about Rafa, however I think as fans the club should have provided grief counselling the way Rafa was used as a scapegoat by Hicks and subsequebtly turfed. The happiest person was Ferguson when this all happened make no mistake.

A lot of Liverpool fans would like Rafa back whenever Kenny leaves the same fans never wanted houllier back why do people think this is.

I think people just think that Houllier "lost it". I don't think people believed he could reach the heights of 2001-2002 again. I feel sorry for him though. I get the feeling he's a bit of a forgotten man in Liverpool's fairly recent history despite achieving such a lot. Considering the dramatics that ensued under Benitez and the H&G period a lot of what he had crafted was swiftly washed away.

Are you trying to complicate things?

That means I have to include Hamann, Smicer and Cisse as Houllier players in the CL FINAL
Hamann as a Houllier player in the F.A. CUP FINAL

I am happy whichever way we work it out.

I include anybody who played a part in a Cup final. However to be fair, every player who played at any point in the competition played a part in us winning. For example we can't forget Mellor and Pongolle for their goals against Olympiakos, or Le Tallec's pass for Garica against Juventus etc. Same way we can't forget Maxi's goals against Exeter and Chelsea as well as Lucas' involvement in the early round games of the successful Carling Cup run this year.

Ultimately I think trying to work out players and whose played they class as is a very difficult task. Kenny's team won the League Cup, Rafa's team won the European Cup and FA Cup, Houllier's team won the UEFA Cup, FA Cup and League Cup twice. That's the way I look at it anyway.

I think people just think that Houllier "lost it". I don't think people believed he could reach the heights of 2001-2002 again. I feel sorry for him though. I get the feeling he's a bit of a forgotten man in Liverpool's fairly recent history despite achieving such a lot. Considering the dramatics that ensued under Benitez and the H&G period a lot of what he had crafted was swiftly washed away.

No people just don't want Houllier risking his own health again. A lot of Liverpool fans where against him taking the Villa job for that reason but when he returned with them you saw the reception he got from the fans.

He couldn't get us back to the heights of where he did because his health won't let him. That's what cost him in his final two years as manager, his health - and one or two big money flops.

I think it is important people express their own biases. I love Kenny and Houllier. Kenny is an exceptional figure in football and I trust him to take us forward without doubt. Houllier provided some very exciting times and endeared himself by his passion and his love for his players and the club.

The Rafalution was the most exciting time for me though. The man had everyone running. Mourinho, Ferguson they knew they didn't want him showing them up with much less resources. The campaign to get rid of Rafa was astounding, particularly when it was aided by this clubs heirachy protecting their own skins. In the end he looked to the outside world  like Ahab. And then people question what he did. Was is it really that good? FFS. Look what happened to Mourinho at Chelsea when the management turned on him, his results turned instantly but he is an opportunist who read the writing and jumped before his reputation was damaged. Rafa stayed and fought and look our his detractors use that to beat him with. It frankly makes  me laugh, becasue if I didn't I would cry. They talked upt ROY HODGSON AS THE MAN TO TAKE US FORWARD AS RAFA HAD FAILED FFS..........

Roy Hodgson's idol is FERGUSON. People still thought .. including some players.. that he would be the man.These people are either stupid, selfish or enemies or a combinaiton

Benitez is the man for our next manager. Never backed by the board, and forced to sell players for loan repayments.

Anyone who can win the Champions League with that squad.... deserves respect and the world of credit

A lot of Liverpool fans would like Rafa back whenever Kenny leaves the same fans never wanted houllier back why do people think this is.

 I think it's probably because as S@int says, most fans have an impression (rightly or wrongly, probably mostly rightly in my view) that Rafa fought against Hicks and Gillette. Also there's the fact that whereas Houllier pretty much failed at Aston Villa and it's fresh in peoples minds, when Rafa pretty much failed in Italy it was less at the forefront of peoples consciousness. Also the fact that Rafa inherited a team which had just won the Champions League and had won their domestic title five years on the bounce, meant he was able to claim he had "won two trophies" when they picked up the Italian Charity shield and beat a pub team from Timbuktoo to win the prestigious "World Club Cup" thingie. This was/is naturally seized upon by his most fervent admirers as a measure of success, that is before the "but he was left an ageing team" chestnut is pulled from the embers.

 Another interesting question is that if Rafa was/is quite the messiah that some claim, how is it that he has been without work for the best part of two seasons? I know there will be claims that he has had "offers", but it does make you wonder why some of the money men in football haven't hunted him down in order to perform the next "rafalution". The answer no doubt will be that they all watch SKY tv and had their image of the man tainted, but there is also the remote possibility that there is a bit more to it than that.

 My own feeling, as I've said many times, is that both Rafa and Houllier did decent jobs as Liverpool manager. They both fully deserve their place in our history, but they will always rank well behind the true greats of our past who graced the managers chair. Fortunately for us, we have one of those really true greats back at the helm now, and we've already won ourselves our first trophy for six seasons. If anybody were to ask me (and of course they won't) I wouldn't take either Rafa or Houllier back whenever the day comes that Kenny calls it a day. If you put a gun to my head and forced me into a choice, I'd go for Rafa because Gerrards health wouldn't stand the strain. Then, if Rafa did get it I'd support him like I support all Liverpool managers. I think he'd be entitled to a minimum of three seasons to see how he's getting on, and then we'd take it from there.

Because people have a misguided belief that Rafa fought against Hicks and Gillett.

My reasons differ from that.

I don't care what Rafa did or did not do in regards to Hicks & Gillette, that's just the back story.

The reason I'd take Rafa back is that by far and large the teams that Rafa built over achieved, given our net spend figures over the course of his tenure, so with sound financial backing, who knows what he could achieve ?, When Kenny decides to call it a day, I wouldn't mind finding out, just to satisfy my curiosity.

Both very good managers for this football club, shame to see people bash either of them to be honest.

Both very good managers for this football club, shame to see people bash either of them to be honest.

Agree and why I've stayed out of this debate.

Both very good managers for this football club, shame to see people bash either of them to be honest.

No reason to bash either manager in my opinion, they both added trophies to our impressive haul over the years and they both earned the respect and adulation of all Liverpool fans.

Agree and why I've stayed out of this debate.

Same mate. Well that and I've only just stumbled across it

Houllier added the more trophies, Rafa added old big ears. Between them only the Premier League was missing.

Rafa or Houllier is in the end a no brainer. As bigmick said Rafa failed in Italy where he was fired mid season after winning the only two trophies on offer, qalifying for the next round of the CL and being a couple of games off the top of the league. In a season where the Inter milan squad had played about one hundred games including the World Cup. Then the world club championships. I think at one point he had about 12 injured first teamers. The squad was completely rung dry  the previous season. Moratti bought one new player, a youngster Coutinho, having offered Rafa a few marquee signings to revamp the team. Big Mick ... Rafa is not going to manage a team that has no chance of winning something and in reality there are only about six teams spread over the major leagues that have any chance. The big question is where will Mourinho go next the only team that can spend what he needs to win is Citeh. If Rafa had Mourinho dough at Liverpool Mourinho would have one F**k all at Chelsea and your veneer of objectivity would be thinner

Rafa or Houllier is in the end a no brainer. As bigmick said Rafa failed in Italy where he was fired mid season after winning the only two trophies on offer, qalifying for the next round of the CL and being a couple of games off the top of the league. In a season where the Inter milan squad had played about one hundred games including the World Cup. Then the world club championships. I think at one point he had about 12 injured first teamers. The squad was completely rung dry  the previous season. Moratti bought one new player, a youngster Coutinho, having offered Rafa a few marquee signings to revamp the team. Big Mick ... Rafa is not going to manage a team that has no chance of winning something and in reality there are only about six teams spread over the major leagues that have any chance. The big question is where will Mourinho go next the only team that can spend what he needs to win is Citeh. If Rafa had Mourinho dough at Liverpool Mourinho would have one f**k all at Chelsea and your veneer of objectivity would be thinner

 It's an interesting theory, and fair enough. That said, were Mourinho to leave Madrid in the Summer (I know he's said he won't) then I would be surprised if he had to wait two seasons to get another job he fancied. Similarly the Gus Hiddinks, Pep Guardiolas, Carlo Ancellotti's, Fabio Capello's, Didier Deschamps etc etc. Top managers tend to walk into top jobs, I'd even be surprised if Villa-Boas isn't working somewhere else pretty soon.

 As for Mournho and his spending, it's an interesting point you make but not one based much around any facts as I understand them. Without wanting to derail the thread overly, Mourinho spent very little at Porto where he won the Champions League, heavily at Chelsea where he won a lot, little at Inter where he won the Champions League and has spent heavily at Madrid in trying to catch Barcelona. I guess we'll never know if we would have swept the board if Rafa had had "Mourniho's dough at Chelsea", and it seems pointless to me to speculate. Many other many managers have recently had more money than Mourinho had whilst managing Man City and haven't been successful so it's clearly not as easy as it looks, but I wouldn't say for a second that Rafa wouldn't have been equally as successful, simply because nobody knows for sure.