Benefits of selling Masch & Xabi?

I was talking about Roy Keane Dls another defensive of midfielder surely your not to young to remember him, he was a goal threat in the early part of his career but as he got older and better dare i say, her never seemed to go over the half way line. Makele got one for Chelsea in four years the same as Masch has for us.

^^^^
Don't pay attention to my last post Dls didn't read the post properly.

I agree with many of the issues being raised on this thread. Of the flaws mentioned in Mascheranos game, all of them were attacking flaws, not one of them was a defensive flaw. That's why he is the best defensive midfielder in world football in my opinion.

Mascherano breaks down attacks, Alonso picks up the pieces and feeds the wingers and central attackers. This is our formation and it works, remember, we only lost 2 games in the Prem last season. And one of the most contributing factors was Mascherano's majestic defending, especially against the Big Four.

Now i hear people saying if we sell Masch, we don't need to buy a similar style of player, and we can adapt to a new system. And that is exactly what it will be, a new system. Do we really want to go into the new season learning a new system?

As we all know, Rafa places emhasis on defence first. I can't see him changing this system drastically. The role he plays is so important and creates the platform for us to attack from. I feel that if he goes, we will be left exposed in front of the back four. Also his stability in this role allows Stevie G the freedom to link with Torres.

Now if Masch is holding this club to ransom ( which i don't believe a word of ), then he can F**k off for all i care. But if he wants 50-60k a week and we tie him up for another 5 years then i for one would be happy. He deserves it.

25mill is not enough for the best DM in the world, keep raising that price

Expect to be shot down mags for suggesting that we look for big big money for 2 of the best players in the world. Our players should be sold for no more then 20 million dont ye know

Well, we've seen others opinions in this topic and I'll give mine now.

I believe Javier Mascherano is the best defensive midfielder at the moment for a price of 17 million. He wasn't at his best at the start of the season and he got better towards the end. He was immense in the 2007 Champions League final, neutralising Kaka. If he goes, I'd like to see Xavi Hernandez there but it's unlikely we'd even get close to that guy whom I think is brilliant. They might/do not play the same position but Xavi is the one of the only few midfielders whom I think is good enough for Liverpool.

In our current formation, Xabi and Javier sit in front the defence while Stevie is allowed a free role. Xabi Alonso does get into the opponents half and hangs around the goal box and we rarely see Javier to that. It's the Premier League, the world's toughest league and I think they need to play at their strengths. It's probably far too risky for 2 holding midfielders to push up unless it is really needed like in the 4-4 draw at Anfield against Arsenal. Masherano played a part in the 4th goal.

Javier Mascherano tackles and breaks down attacks. He probably knows attacking isn't one of his qualities so he sits back in case the opponents counter attack and also knows he's the least likely to score out of our Holy Midfield Trinity. He may not be scoring goals but he is does a lot of tackling and that's something he does very well. He may not be a complete player, but we've seen him make some darting runs in opponents half (against Man United and Blackburn at Anfield). Javier doesn't have to be one of the most complete player around but he does a great job stopping attacks or stalling attacks while the other guys get back. This may be irrelevant but Xabi Alonso doesn't make those runs and his tacking isn't the best either but it doesn't not mean Xabi is crap. At least we could be happy that he's take some shots last season and can hope get bangs a few in next season.

As for passing, he probably also knows he can't do Xabi-like passes. He just has to pass it short to Xabi to make a long pass or to any other teammates. As it has been mentioned, Javier's decision-making may be poor, choosing to pass to Fernando or Stevie with 3 defenders in front of them instead of another teammate at a better position. It's easy for us to see and say as we watch football. Put ourselves in his shoes and it's a different thing. Sometimes there are other factors that may play a part like manager's advice to Javier to just pass it quickly to our 2 top guns. We do not know. If i'm not mistaken, I remember him making 2 great passes for Yossi Benayoun against Wigan(where he rounds the keeper and scores) and Newcastle(the part he cuts back to Stevie for the first in the 5-1 win). They were perfectly timed passes with just enough weight on them together with Yossi's wonderful timed runs that got us a 2 goals. See, Javier can make killer passes.

Whether the unsolved future of his is true or not, it remains to be seen. He should be glad to be able to play for the world's biggest team, facing the world's greatest fans. He should be offered more than 24k per week for his standards and his wonderful celebrations when we win. However, if he's wanting to leave just because he's not offered as much as others and does not have the heart to play at Anfield, it's best we get him for 30 million. Whoever is bought, we need a new system and everyone has to adapt to it and this is probably something we do not want when we went very close to the league title last season.

I understand that mate, I know the formation is one in which the holding midfielders are there to defend rather than attack. But at the end of the day, a central midfielder is there to get forward as well as back. Any young central midfielder is taught that, being a central midfielder whenever I've played footy I know that.

And whether our formation dictates whether or not Masch or Xabi can roam forward at will, they do have plenty of chances throughout the season to score. And five goals, all by Xabi, between them in 85 appearances last season is not good enough. That's the top and bottom of it. Five goals a season from Xabi, isn't too bad although for a man with his ability it could easily be more, but no goals from Mascherano is a joke. I don't really like comparing our players with those from other clubs, I always tend to compare them with players from our history. So in saying that, if you compare a ball winner like Mascherano to a ball winner like Souness, you'll see instantly the difference in class. Souness was a much more complete player who was there to chip in with goals as well as stop them at the other end.

That's the difference. Mascherano isn't a complete player, he isn't as good as some think. He can tackle as well as anybody in the world, he'll run all day for you and a lot of his good work goes unnoticed. But just hard-work and a good tackle isn't enough in this league, you need to be able to pass which Masch constantly struggles with, you need to be able score which Masch shits himself with, you need to think cleverly and I don't mean in the way Yossi does with those clever through balls but clever thinking by making the right decision for example not passing it to Gerrard when he's got four players up his arse while Kuyt is unmarked. These are things that Mascherano clearly struggles with.

Now I can see the replies coming "He's captain of Argentina" or "He was described as Argentina's best midfielder for 40 years" or "Why would Barcelona want him if he's so poor?" or "There's more to football than goals." Well stuff those replies because they mean sod all. You can go and ask a 100 Argentinians if Mascherano is their best midfielder for 40 years and you'd probably be lucky to get 20 who say yes. Barcelona bought Alex Hleb for fucks sake, says a lot about them and have been linked with Benayoun. Hardly world stars. And yes there is more to football than goals, but there's also more to football than a good runner who throws in well.

Being named Argentina captain at 24, is a massive achievement for any player. We're not talking about a poor nation here, that's a top class footballing nation reaped in history. But it still doesn't mean Mascherano is some sort of fantastic footballer, it just means Maradona puts trust in him to lead the country. Captains are not always the best footballers, but those who lead the rest of side well I.e. Mark Wright or Gareth Barry. Now that's one thing we may not replace if we sell our number 20, his leadership qualities because I think he will develop into a leader whatever club he's at.

Now before anybody kicks off, I actually rate Mascherano as a good player. I'd much prefer him in the side than somebody like Zenden. Any fan will tell you providing a player is willing to work for the shirt, they'll always be held highly, which is I mentioned Zenden because he wasn't prepared to do that. That's one of the reasons why Kuyt has always been given the benefit of the doubt with fans, because they see him working hard. But people are prepared to admit Kuyt is a limited footballer, but try and make out Mascherano is something he isn't. He's a good player, but has many flaws and if a bid of 35 million came in for him I, personally, would be snapping their hand off to accept it.

Firstly DLS, I dont see how you can compare both Souness and Mascherano. Yes Souness was a player who had the ability to both attack and defend, and yes I admit he did that with ease. But you have to consider the fact that these were played under different generations, footballing times have changed, and its a much more complex game. Footballers are fitter. The game of football has more to it than what it had 30 years ago. Not forgetting that these were played under different managers, and under different managers there are different tactics and formations involved. And in this world of football it changes its face and modernizes everyday, that certainly I don't see how can you compare a player past to present.

Masch is a defensive midfielder, and theorically speaking he will sit, next to Alonso, 5-10 yards ahead of the defenders. He is a ball winner, he is a hardworker. Yes you got it spot on. That is all you need to be a defensive midfielder. Technically he ISN'T a midfielder, he is a defensive midfielder, so there isn't a good need for him to go and join the attack. His main job, again is to defend. And that is of a very paramount concern, because if you are going up you are exploiting your back four to counter attacks and this is going to be a big risk if you do so. You don't need to score goals to be a top defensive midfielder, because that isnt what a defensive midfielder is paid to do. He is paid to cover the back four, like I've pointed out already, so therefore the point in Masch scoring goals is unnecessary.

The reason you think why Masch isn't a complete midfielder, is because he doesn't need to show off all his traits to play as a defensive midfielder. He'll make the simple passes once he gets the job done, that's it. Yes, I do admit sometimes his passes are off, but still he does it right. He gets the passes going. And although yes, sometimes I find he makes the wrong decisions, still, he is a player who can play the 40 yarders to start attacks as well. He's many steps up from Sissoko, and I'll tell you we've got an absolute bargain of a player at 17 million. Masch doesnt need to show off that he is a complete midfielder, he just needs to defend, gets his legs into the tackle and his job is done. You don't need him to play like Steven Gerrard, you just have to look at him, running twice as fast and furiously at the opposition then you'll understand that's the only job he needs to do.

Again, I would like to pay special emphasis on formation. The 4-2-3-1 formation is a complex one, as I've already mentioned Alonso and Mascherano sit at the defensive midfielder role, and let me tell you this, no one does it better than the 2. I am certain we all know that Rafa goes for possesion and circulation football, and 4-2-3-1 is the most effective to implement that. You've been witnessing Arbeloa and Aurelio/Insua going forward on every single occasion, and thats what the defensive midfielders do, not only do they protect the centre but also they protect the left backs and right backs.

For instance, if the ball is with the opponents left winger and his teammate is helping him out that side (normally the left back), then one of the defensive midfielders joins your teams right back to make it 2 v 2. The other defensive midfielder sits in the middle of the park so that no space opens. RB and LB get up and attack when chance arises (and if ball is going up the right side the LB tucks in with the two CB s). Therefore the defensive midfielders are breakers and as such they need to be fit and defensively minded, as well as being very tactically aware of their surroundings.

Now, I think you might also see the logic in Rafa signing Johnson, its because he wants to further enhance his attacking options on the wings, with both LB and RB supporting the wingers by pushing up. And this leaves the defensive midfielders with technically 2 jobs. Firstly, to cover up the 'hole' left when the leftbacks bomb forward, and secondly 'to also provide protection to the centre'. And these 2 jobs are enough to keep the defensive midfielders occupied the whole game. You have got to understand that the RB and LB bomb forward so often, that if Masch and Alonso bomb up as well, we'll be extremely vulnerable to counter attacks considering that we are going to be only left with Carra and Agger/Skrtel at the back.

So, to sum it all up, it is not Masch's fault that he is not scoring! The formation plays a huge part in this, and as good as Alonso's shots is he doesn't score for us that often, again here you cannot blame him. It's more about the tactical side of the game, and how the formation works and what Rafa wants to implement, and therefore you have to see the logic in why they ain't scoring. It is not as simple as it seems.

If you look carefully at Barca's system, they are also gonna put Masch in the holding role and the main aim of this is to allow to put their LB and RB to great effects as well. I saw a great article of the rising importance of the RB and LB, and yes they are very pivotal to win the league as well. At the moment Barca have Dani Alves on the right, and for one if Masch goes there he is going to be helping Alves cover the spaces he leaves behind, as well as protect the back four. Therefore I'm also certain that Barca are going to get another new leftback, they are going to fit Keita/Busquets/Toure/Masch into a holding midfielder position. I don't include Xavi in there, reason being he is going up to supply the balls for Messi, Henry, Eto'o etc. Think about it, Barca are also the possesion, circulation football kind of team, as proven in the Champions League final, and he (Pep Guardiola) is going to implement this into his team, and therefore he wants Masch.

Look at it there are many similarities and instead of looking at one point and ranting on Masch, you've got to have a look at why Barca want the player even though Masch may not pass well, which may not suit Barca. Tactics and formations are reasons behind this, and so is Glen Johnson's transfer, well for him to bomb up and Masch to cover!

My point is that I don't believe we have a transfer balance of £0 (although you wouldn't know with Bert & Ernie in charge)

Me and 7kk7 would do a fine job tyvl

Me and 7kk7 would do a fine job tyvl

You couldn't do any worse than tweedledumb and tweedledumber that's for sure.

Redsonfire mate, you've taken time in that post quite clearly but I struggle to agree with most of it. You say Masch isn't a midfielder, he's a defensive midfielder. Whatever way you try and dress it up, the lad is a midfielder. A midfielder's job is to get back and forward, supporting every single position of your team.

I know as well anybody that Masch isn't comfortable going forward and would much prefer to sit back as that's where his skills shine. But wherever on the pitch he's more comfortable, as a midfielder you have to work at both ends of the pitch. Didi Hamman was a so called "defensive midfielder" (just another modern day term to make football even more complicated by the way) but still chipped in with goals and to be honest was better at breaking up the play than Masch, when the German was in his prime. And the reason I compared him to Souness, which may be unfair considering Souey is one the best players ever to don the Red shirt, was because they were both the ball winners of the team.

And I don't consider somebody who only breaks up the play to be a bargain at 17 million. He has a great engine on him, he can run with the ball and carry it out of danger. So he should be much more potent for this club in the final third than what he is. As I said earlier whether or not the tactics dictate he and Xabi are meant to sit, they both get plenty of chances to go forward. Whether or not people wanna buy into this "oh it's not his job", they have to remember what a midfielder is on the pitch to do. They are there to work at both ends of the pitch, especially those with an engine as quick as Masch. Xabi is a different case because he doesn't have the pace to get up and down, so his work is from about 20 yards outside our box to 20 yards outside the opposing.

Mascherano isn't a Steven Gerrard and I'm not expecting him to be. I do however expect more from him. I expect him to work on his short passing over the summer, so the simple 5 yard passes are not going astray. I expect him to work on his shooting, because whatever type of midfielder you call him, 1 goal in a Liverpool shirt is a disgrace.

I've said it before, in terms of breaking up the play he's fantastic. But there's got to be more from him - simple as.

Well, we've seen others opinions in this topic and I'll give mine now.

I believe Javier Mascherano is the best defensive midfielder at the moment for a price of 17 million. He wasn't at his best at the start of the season and he got better towards the end. He was immense in the 2007 Champions League final, neutralising Kaka. If he goes, I'd like to see Xavi Hernandez there but it's unlikely we'd even get close to that guy whom I think is brilliant. They might/do not play the same position but Xavi is the one of the only few midfielders whom I think is good enough for Liverpool.

In our current formation, Xabi and Javier sit in front the defence while Stevie is allowed a free role. Xabi Alonso does get into the opponents half and hangs around the goal box and we rarely see Javier to that. It's the Premier League, the world's toughest league and I think they need to play at their strengths. It's probably far too risky for 2 holding midfielders to push up unless it is really needed like in the 4-4 draw at Anfield against Arsenal. Masherano played a part in the 4th goal.

Your post was interesting until that last line....... the point being that 2 holding midfielders in front of a back four shouldnt concede four goals like we did that night.

Well, we've seen others opinions in this topic and I'll give mine now.

I believe Javier Mascherano is the best defensive midfielder at the moment for a price of 17 million. He wasn't at his best at the start of the season and he got better towards the end. He was immense in the 2007 Champions League final, neutralising Kaka. If he goes, I'd like to see Xavi Hernandez there but it's unlikely we'd even get close to that guy whom I think is brilliant. They might/do not play the same position but Xavi is the one of the only few midfielders whom I think is good enough for Liverpool.

In our current formation, Xabi and Javier sit in front the defence while Stevie is allowed a free role. Xabi Alonso does get into the opponents half and hangs around the goal box and we rarely see Javier to that. It's the Premier League, the world's toughest league and I think they need to play at their strengths. It's probably far too risky for 2 holding midfielders to push up unless it is really needed like in the 4-4 draw at Anfield against Arsenal. Masherano played a part in the 4th goal.

Javier Mascherano tackles and breaks down attacks. He probably knows attacking isn't one of his qualities so he sits back in case the opponents counter attack and also knows he's the least likely to score out of our Holy Midfield Trinity. He may not be scoring goals but he is does a lot of tackling and that's something he does very well. He may not be a complete player, but we've seen him make some darting runs in opponents half (against Man United and Blackburn at Anfield). Javier doesn't have to be one of the most complete player around but he does a great job stopping attacks or stalling attacks while the other guys get back. This may be irrelevant but Xabi Alonso doesn't make those runs and his tacking isn't the best either but it doesn't not mean Xabi is crap. At least we could be happy that he's take some shots last season and can hope get bangs a few in next season.

As for passing, he probably also knows he can't do Xabi-like passes. He just has to pass it short to Xabi to make a long pass or to any other teammates. As it has been mentioned, Javier's decision-making may be poor, choosing to pass to Fernando or Stevie with 3 defenders in front of them instead of another teammate at a better position. It's easy for us to see and say as we watch football. Put ourselves in his shoes and it's a different thing. Sometimes there are other factors that may play a part like manager's advice to Javier to just pass it quickly to our 2 top guns. We do not know. If I'm not mistaken, I remember him making 2 great passes for Yossi Benayoun against Wigan(where he rounds the keeper and scores) and Newcastle(the part he cuts back to Stevie for the first in the 5-1 win). They were perfectly timed passes with just enough weight on them together with Yossi's wonderful timed runs that got us a 2 goals. See, Javier can make killer passes.

Whether the unsolved future of his is true or not, it remains to be seen. He should be glad to be able to play for the world's biggest team, facing the world's greatest fans. He should be offered more than 24k per week for his standards and his wonderful celebrations when we win. However, if he's wanting to leave just because he's not offered as much as others and does not have the heart to play at Anfield, it's best we get him for 30 million. Whoever is bought, we need a new system and everyone has to adapt to it and this is probably something we do not want when we went very close to the league title last season.

Spot on. 

I struggle to agree with most of it. You say Masch isn't a midfielder, he's a defensive midfielder.

Nothing new there.



And I don't consider somebody who only breaks up the play to be a bargain at 17 million.

Surely if Barcelona and Madrid are going head over heels to get him and offer double what we paid and we make 100% profit then surely it must be a bargain.

Rafa has named his price - £50 mill - that says it all really.

Redsonfire mate, you've taken time in that post quite clearly but I struggle to agree with most of it. You say Masch isn't a midfielder, he's a defensive midfielder. Whatever way you try and dress it up, the lad is a midfielder. A midfielder's job is to get back and forward, supporting every single position of your team.

Yes, a midfielder's job is to get back and forward, but not a defensive midfielder. The defensive midfielders have specific tasks that they are employed to during the game, and that is defending the back four and protecting it. As I've said, we use the 4-2-3-1 formation, Gerrard is our attacking midfielder, but Masch and Alonso are defensive midfielders. If the defensive midfielders are moving up, the team is going to take a huge gamble should the opposition go on a counter. Pushing these defensive midfielders up, in my point of view, should only be allowed to happen if you really need to turn draws into wins and losses into wins etc. Quite simply put, unlike the traditional 4-4-2, when you can give freedom to the 2 central midfielders, now you don't have that freedom. If you are going up to try and have some fun attacking, then you are leaving the team very vulnerable at best.

I know as well anybody that Masch isn't comfortable going forward and would much prefer to sit back as that's where his skills shine. But wherever on the pitch he's more comfortable, as a midfielder you have to work at both ends of the pitch. Didi Hamman was a so called "defensive midfielder" (just another modern day term to make football even more complicated by the way) but still chipped in with goals and to be honest was better at breaking up the play than Masch, when the German was in his prime. And the reason I compared him to Souness, which may be unfair considering Souey is one the best players ever to don the Red shirt, was because they were both the ball winners of the team.

Again this term involves around defensive midfielders, but quite rightly you cannot compare Didi and Masch at it as well. They played in two different formations, different instructions etc are given by Rafa. And as I've said, yes Masch is a defensive midfielder but he is not one who has to work both ends of the pitch. And in 4-2-3-1 I'll put defenders and defensive midfielders under the defending category, fullbacks will fall under the attack category. This is because its how this formation is set up, you just have got to agree that well you may be a defensive midfielder but your job is to only defend. The word 'defensive' says it all.

And I don't consider somebody who only breaks up the play to be a bargain at 17 million. He has a great engine on him, he can run with the ball and carry it out of danger. So he should be much more potent for this club in the final third than what he is. As I said earlier whether or not the tactics dictate he and Xabi are meant to sit, they both get plenty of chances to go forward. Whether or not people wanna buy into this "oh it's not his job", they have to remember what a midfielder is on the pitch to do. They are there to work at both ends of the pitch, especially those with an engine as quick as Masch. Xabi is a different case because he doesn't have the pace to get up and down, so his work is from about 20 yards outside our box to 20 yards outside the opposing.

Again, this is similar to the case I've pointed out earlier. You may find that he isn't potent, but that just proves that the formation is working. I've classed defensive midfielders and central defenders under the defence category, and firstly their priority, is to stop whatever opposition attacks and cover the team well and adequately at the back to their best of their ability. That's all. This allows fullbacks, and in this case Insua/Aurelio and Glen Johnson come into place. They go up and support the wingers and this is where the fullbacks turn into secondary wingers as well. So, these fullbacks have got attacking as their priority FIRST, simply due to the fact that the defensive midfielders do not have the freedom to attack! So again its not about working both ends of the pitch, its not about the chances to go forward. It's all about the need to put defending first - for a defensive midfielder.

Mascherano isn't a Steven Gerrard and I'm not expecting him to be. I do however expect more from him. I expect him to work on his short passing over the summer, so the simple 5 yard passes are not going astray. I expect him to work on his shooting, because whatever type of midfielder you call him, 1 goal in a Liverpool shirt is a disgrace.

I've said it before, in terms of breaking up the play he's fantastic. But there's got to be more from him - simple as.

It isn't a disgrace. Defensive midfielders put defending first and with the complexity of the formations you have got to understand that. Carra's got less than 10 goals to his name despite making more than 500 appearances for the club. And that's a defender, whose priority first is similar of that to a defensive midfielder. These defensive midfielders just sit 5-10 yards ahead. Besides, Arbeloa's pushed up so often in the season and he's barely scored as many goals as Masch's had. Especially if he is classified under the attacking player, do you really think Arbeloa's providing enough with his crosses/goals? Certainly not and that is why Rafa wants a player who puts attacking first as his priority, scores goals and creates assists - that's Johnson. You may also find that when Masch is having a good game, he'll get subsitituted off by Rafa. Reason being that he wants more people to push up and attack, but as a defensive midfielder you are not supposed to do that, it does not play to Masch's strengths anyway.

I do agree with you that in terms of breaking up the play he's fantastic. But the reason why there's isn't more from him, is that at the end of the day they are the first cover of defenders and certainly as the first line of protection in the Liverpool's half you cannot neglect the defensive duties to attack. It's a position whereby you've got to fully concentrate on defending. It's a specialised position and it is to sit 5-10 yards ahead of Carra's and defend. Masch and Alonso ain't the box to box type of player, they ain't even supposed to function like that. Rafa is playing to their strengths and quite rightly he is doing it the correct method. If a passing team like Barca can come in and make him their no. 1 transfer target, then you have got to think about why Masch is wanted when, as you said, he can't pass that well.

Also, I do suggest you on having another look at my older post, I think you didn't get the full grasp of what I was trying to say on there.

We're not gonna agree on this, simple as that mate.

I don't for one minute think it's acceptable for him to be a "defensive" midfielder because that's not how football should work. "Defensive" midfielder is just another modern day term to further complicate a simple football game.

We're not gonna agree on this, simple as that mate.

I don't for one minute think it's acceptable for him to be a "defensive" midfielder because that's not how football should work. "Defensive" midfielder is just another modern day term to further complicate a simple football game.

I know we're not gonna agree and we're seeing all this altogether very differently, but now I'd do hope we keep Masch and Xabi, because of the upcoming importance of the role of fullbacks/wingbacks in our team that is Johnson, Aurelio/Insua, a lot is going to hinge on how effective our defensive midfield pairing is in terms of breaking up play.

Your post was interesting until that last line....... the point being that 2 holding midfielders in front of a back four shouldnt concede four goals like we did that night.

Yes, it's very unlike Liverpool FC with Pepe in goal and Carra, Agger, Arbeloa and Aurelio in front of him to concede 4 goals in a match twice in a row. People make mistakes in football but I think it was a very unlucky fact that so many mistakes happened in the same match instead of the mistakes being spreaded out into a few matches. As for the Chelsea match, we probably got carried away being 2-0 up.

Even so, we later on got a lucky free kick against Hull City with Xabi Alonso scored from and needed a little help from that West Bromwich defender to make a mistake that enable Stevie to break the deadlock. So I guess what goes around comes around!

I know we're not gonna agree and we're seeing all this altogether very differently, but now I'd do hope we keep Masch and Xabi, because of the upcoming importance of the role of fullbacks/wingbacks in our team that is Johnson, Aurelio/Insua, a lot is going to hinge on how effective our defensive midfield pairing is in terms of breaking up play.

Just tell me mate with this "defensive" midfielder malarky where the support up front comes from.

You've got Johnson and Kuyt down the right with Aurelio and Riera down the left. Trying to pick out Torres and possibly Gerrard with four defenders (minimum) in the box defending. Now the likely hood is that ball will be cleared and if Stevie is in the middle, the ball will drop to the edge of the box to the opponents forcing the ball to be cleared even easier by their central midfielders.

That's why "defensive" midfielders shouldn't exist in football. They need to be there, to pick up the second ball like Xabi was against Chelsea and guess what...we scored. Like Stevie has been for so many years and has scored so many screamers in that role. If they're sat 10 yards ahead of Carragher, putting all their efforts into defending than any second ball will just be lost by us. That's where both Xabi and Masch need to be pushed up much further to try and mop it up or stifle the counter attack so our full backs have a chance to get back.

Never will I buy into a "defensive" midfielder because every player on the pitch is asked to attack and defend. Ian Rush was once described as Bob Paisley's best defender, Dirk Kuyt has been labelled with similar titles for Rafa Benitez' Liverpool. Even in modern day football, the basics stay the same. The entire team gets forward and back and I don't mean gung ho rallies where we've got 11 men in the opposition box but all players need to do it. It's why Reina is so highly rated amongst us fans, not only for his goalkeeping, his natural job, but his distribution. Agger, is adored not only for his defending, his natural job, but also his ability to bring the ball out of defence. Carra, when we're getting beat and in need of that goal, he tries and makes those runs although being a pretty average technical player it's not as easy on the eye as an Agger or Hansen or Crazy Horse. But he does it.

Masch has proven he can do it with those runs from opposing corners when the ball is cleared, that's the sort of midfielder he should be on a regular basis, he has the ability and engine to do so. You hear how loudly the crowd sing his name when he makes one of his trademark tackles but it's just as loud as when he's carrying the ball 50, 60 yards up the field. He can do it, he can become one of Liverpool's greatest central midfielders, if it becomes a regular thing. Goals aren't the important thing, although it does need improving on, if he can just add to his attacking ability. His defensive work is almost faultless, just with the lack of concentration in his passing now and then, so he should be putting so much effort into his attacking play to become that more complete midfielder that he can be. We've seen he has it in him, even when in this "defensive" midfield role. It just needs to become on a more regular basis because it isn't, at the moment, good enough in my opinion.

Just tell me mate with this "defensive" midfielder malarky where the support up front comes from.

You've got Johnson and Kuyt down the right with Aurelio and Riera down the left. Trying to pick out Torres and possibly Gerrard with four defenders (minimum) in the box defending. Now the likely hood is that ball will be cleared and if Stevie is in the middle, the ball will drop to the edge of the box to the opponents forcing the ball to be cleared even easier by their central midfielders.

That's why "defensive" midfielders shouldn't exist in football. They need to be there, to pick up the second ball like Xabi was against Chelsea and guess what...we scored. Like Stevie has been for so many years and has scored so many screamers in that role. If they're sat 10 yards ahead of Carragher, putting all their efforts into defending than any second ball will just be lost by us. That's where both Xabi and Masch need to be pushed up much further to try and mop it up or stifle the counter attack so our full backs have a chance to get back.

Never will I buy into a "defensive" midfielder because every player on the pitch is asked to attack and defend. Ian Rush was once described as Bob Paisley's best defender, Dirk Kuyt has been labelled with similar titles for Rafa Benitez' Liverpool. Even in modern day football, the basics stay the same. The entire team gets forward and back and I don't mean gung ho rallies where we've got 11 men in the opposition box but all players need to do it. It's why Reina is so highly rated amongst us fans, not only for his goalkeeping, his natural job, but his distribution. Agger, is adored not only for his defending, his natural job, but also his ability to bring the ball out of defence. Carra, when we're getting beat and in need of that goal, he tries and makes those runs although being a pretty average technical player it's not as easy on the eye as an Agger or Hansen or Crazy Horse. But he does it.

Masch has proven he can do it with those runs from opposing corners when the ball is cleared, that's the sort of midfielder he should be on a regular basis, he has the ability and engine to do so. You hear how loudly the crowd sing his name when he makes one of his trademark tackles but it's just as loud as when he's carrying the ball 50, 60 yards up the field. He can do it, he can become one of Liverpool's greatest central midfielders, if it becomes a regular thing. Goals aren't the important thing, although it does need improving on, if he can just add to his attacking ability. His defensive work is almost faultless, just with the lack of concentration in his passing now and then, so he should be putting so much effort into his attacking play to become that more complete midfielder that he can be. We've seen he has it in him, even when in this "defensive" midfield role. It just needs to become on a more regular basis because it isn't, at the moment, good enough in my opinion.

I do get the point that you are trying to bring across to me mate. But right now I'll just sum up what I think Rafa does to the team and how he moulds to the team to ensure it is set up both defensively and offensively.

Firstly, our work comes from mostly the wings, from our fullbacks, and this gradually is transfered onto Gerrard's shoulders, before Torres will be there to score any goals whatsoever. You've got it that Riera and Aurelio are there to push up, and so is Kuyt and Johnson. Gerrard and Torres is in the centre. To be honest it's adaptable and flexible. You've got 6 in the opposition half and they're all evenly spread out, so as they are allowed to do the job wherever they want. And when Johnson and Aurelio push up, what you get from Masch and Alonso is that they move slightly forward, albeit slightly, that's because they have to be very careful about the spaces they are exploiting at the back, again. Anyway, despite the fact that its 4 defenders, for a standard 4-4-2 formation now thats 2 strikers facing off everytime, is that enough? Now, the comparision onto our team, Torres is in the box, and then to support the team, Gerrard behind him just outside the penalty area to take any advantage.

With support from our wingbacks, Riera and Kuyt are pushed into the penalty area as well to get more control of the possession of the ball in there, and the fullbacks, they basically don't get in the box, because if they do then its a long way back to their orginal position. However, they are stationed outside at the edge of the box, Kuyt and Riera pushing in.

Now the complaint about Riera kicks in as well. You've seen Kuyt able to score so many goals this season, but his finishing isn't that good either. But, getting into the box gives increases the chances for the player to score the goal. And that is what Kuyt has been doing. Arbeloa's pushing up, Kuyt pushes into the box and that's how he can get his goals. Unfortunately, Riera is a player who hogs the touchline, he isn't one whom you will find in the box that often. He is the player who drifts out wide, and as a old fashioned player like him I think it's a mistake by Rafa because there is some sort of a imbalance between the right and left. One of the reasons again why Riera isn't as good as how he plays for his country, his country adopts different tactics that suit him better. Also, with a higher likelihood of the ball being cleared, the higher the chance it reaches to Masch/Alonso as well.

That is the reason why, we have the best midfield in the middle of the park, and this is the reason why we are able to control the game. It is because of constant pressing from the fullbacks, wingers are allowed to get in the box and yes its cleared by the opposition. But the attack starts again when it reaches Alonso/Masch, and this is football, pressing ones at its best. Yes you may argue that the second ball is lost, but who does it best? Steven Gerrard. Xabi, in that Chelsea game, scored from the second ball because we played a 4-4-2 formation in that game, whereby we didn't use any defensive midfielders. But with the 4-2-3-1 formation, it is clear that IF Masch and Alonso go up and try to mob the opposition whatsoever, you'll end up with only 2 defenders at the back, due to the fact that the fullbacks are supporting the wingers on the flanks.

And its an imbalance with 8 attacking and 2 defending. Therefore there must be a priority for each and everyone of the players when they step onto the field. For Masch and Alonso it is defending, but only WHEN its in a 4-2-3-1 formation.

Wow ... seeing everyone's long post just makes me dizzy , and I don't think I have the patience to write such a long post expressing my opinion .. I can say it but I guess I'm too lazy to write it ..so I'm keeping it short ( compared to ROF's and DLS's) .

Look ... ok , so Masch doesn't score as many goals as we'd like him to .. but scoring goals is just for kicks when it comes to his position ... I know you guys are saying that he should make an attempt even if it isn't his priority . But with this current system we're averaging like 3 goals per game so it doesn't really mater if Masch scores not . We've seen him make some bombing runs forward too ..like for example the Portsmouth game where he helped set up Nando's decisive goal . he cover for our fullbacks basically so it allows them to get forward more , even attacking centre backs like Agger.We have a great system on our hands which really tears everyone to bits , so maybe Masch isn't scoring but as long as he's benefiting the team in his way and everyone notices I don't see what the problem is . But when he has the chance and things are clear at the back he can get forward. But if we want to win the league next season I suggest Rafa shouldn't take a gamble by changing then current system , its best we stick to that system all season long and buy layers who can cover for Stevie and Nando when they are out .

About Xabi ...well he is a master class passer and very good at long range shots and long passes . His speed doesn't really allow him to get forward much hence the long shots from the half way line . But when you're that good at passing you don't need to be fast. If Steven is the heart and soul of the team and Masch is our engine , Xabi can be described as ( got this form an article) the oil which makes it work smoothly , and thats what Xabi's passing is , smooth , slick and accurate .

So at the end of the day and according to our system these players fit in perfectly and they suit each other very well .. nobody does the job in midfield like these two do , Xabi needs Masch's speed and tackles to help him defend and Masch need Xabi's awesome passing and creativity to get the ball to the players upfront . And that's why I think that we should not sell either of them .

EDIT : This turned out long than what I thought it would be ... ( so much for keeping it short ) 

About Xabi ...well he is a master class passer and very good at long range shots and long passes . His speed doesn't really allow him to get forward much hence the long shots from the half way line .But when you're that good at passing you don't need to be fast. If Steven is the heart and soul of the team and Masch is our engine , Xabi can be described as ( got this form an article) the oil which makes it work smoothly , and thats what Xabi's passing is , smooth , slick and accurate .

This article?  

Finally voted, wanted to wait until the title race was over. I went for Xabi Alonso.

For me, he has been our best player over the entire season. His performances have been of a consistently world-class level. His vision, his passing, his creativity make him one of the world's best midfielders IMO, and a vital part of our starting XI.

I've said before in another thread that if Liverpool were a motor, Xabi would be the grease that kept it running smoothly. Passing the ball out from defence, he links the whole team together, at times the whole match seems to rotate around him as he spreads play in 360°.

Technically superb without an ounce of arrogance, IMO the best all round passer and playmaker we have had at the club for decades - very much in the Molby-mould.

When we take into consideration the rumours surrounding his departure last summer, and prior to that injuries that hampered his form, the sheer standard of play he has achieved this year, at a consistent level is almost super-human. Alonso is clearly very strong mentally, and an example of what can be achieved with the right will and desire.

A joy to watch.

no ... it was a different article ..not from this forum . But everyone seems to agree with that statement though !

^^^^

Niks you got it spot on there, that was what I was trying to bring across. Masch and Alonso covers for the fullbacks to ensure that we do not risk it hard when the fullbacks attack. And also Masch and Alonso do cover for the centrebacks when they are attacking, so like I've said the defensive midfielders do mostly the work that you don't notice when the ball is being played when we're attacking. Only you'll see Masch/Alonso slightly moving up a little or spreading apart wide, to cover and that is what they basically do. Goes unnoticed.

Ayrton you seem to rate your articles very highly! ^^^