In our latest big interview on Liverpoolfc.tv, former Reds defender Mark Lawrenson talks candidly about the highs and lows of his Anfield career.One of the most elegant central defenders to ever grace the hallowed L4 turf, Lawrenson moved to Merseyside from Brighton in the summer of 1981.
He slotted seamlessly into the reigning European champions' team and would later go on to form one of the finest defensive partnerships continental football has ever seen with Alan Hansen at the heart of Liverpool's back line.
Lawro made 356 appearances for the Reds, claiming five league titles, one European Cup, one FA Cup, and three League Cups, before an Achilles injury sadly curtailed his playing career in 1988 at the relatively tender age of 30.
Here, in an exclusive interview with Liverpoolfc.tv, the man many believe to be the greatest tackler to ever don the Red jersey talks in-depth about his trophy-laden days as a top-class professional.
Going back to the start of your footballing career and you signed for your hometown club, Preston. Is that the team you supported as a boy? Yes, I was born about a drive and a nine iron away from North End. My dad played for Preston and when my mum remarried, my step-father was a director at the club, so it was certainly in my blood. I went to Preston when I was 17. Bobby Charlton signed me and there's actually a quiz question out there asking 'Which footballer played for both Bobby and Jack Charlton?'
Who were you boyhood idols in the playground? George Best. Not because he played for Manchester United, just because he was 'Bestie' and was unbelievable.
What was Bobby Charlton like as a manager? Everyone remembers him as a great player, but few remember him as a manager... I don't think he really wanted to be there, but he was great with the younger players. If you were an apprentice in those days, you'd be on 'dressing room duty' for the home team, running around getting spare studs and tie-ups for the players, and I remember one particular day when Bobby was standing in the dressing room with the opposition team sheet and he was shaking. I remember thinking it didn't look too good for him. He really did not want to be there. But what an absolute legend and he was always great with me.
Your Preston career seemed to take off right away. You were playing really well and even got an international call-up. What was behind your decision to represent the Republic of Ireland? Preston were in the middle of the old Third Division and the manager, Alan Kelly, knew that all of my mum's side of the family were Irish. When I actually made my debut, I'd played for Preston on the Saturday, flew to Dublin on the Saturday night, played against Poland on the Sunday, flew back home on Monday and played for Preston again on the Tuesday evening. I've always maintained that Liverpool would probably never have bought me from Brighton if they hadn't seen me play for Ireland, so choosing Ireland worked for me. A lot of former England managers said to me I would have played for England, but that was easy for them to say because they didn't have to pick me.
You made 73 appearances for Preston before being sold to Brighton for quite a big fee. Did you find it intimidating moving for £100,000 at such a young age? The move down south was big because I'd never left home before, but I actually signed a blank contract for Brighton in Benidorm! Before all the agents reading this start panicking, my step-father, being a director at Preston, knew the chairman of Brighton, and also the vice-chairman, and they'd had a number of conversations and verbally shook hands. After signing the contract, I celebrated with beans on toast!
Liverpool were reportedly interested in you then, but were outbid by Brighton. Were you aware of this at the time? No. In those days, the last day of the transfer window was the final day in March and I nearly signed for Newcastle, who were a better team than they are now, but that fell through. I didn't hear about Liverpool's interest until after I'd signed for Brighton. I think they were considering offering around £60,000-£70,000, but Preston needed the money and I think they got around £100,000 plus VAT from Brighton. Preston went to Liverpool to tell them and they decided against matching it.
Brighton then came into financial difficulties - do you think you'd have stayed had things been different?No, my time had come and I was ready to go. I had a 10-year contract would you believe? What on earth was all that about? I was on a 10-year contract because they knew they could sell me. I had the choice between Manchester United, Arsenal and Liverpool all on the same day.
Is it true you signed for Liverpool at Heathrow airport? Yes. I got a phone call from Daily Mail journalist Colin Wood saying Liverpool were interested. They were coming back from Switzerland on a flight in pre-season and he told me they wanted to sign me, but it was the first I'd heard. Then, within five minutes, I got a call from Terry Neal, who was Arsenal's manager, so I went to Gatwick to see him. To be fair to Terry, he didn't really sell the club to me. He offered me less money than what I was on at Brighton, and said, 'Come and play with David O'Leary', but the offer wasn't very good. Then I got home and I had Ron Atkinson on the phone, who was Manchester United manager at the time. He urged me to join United, but I told him I was speaking to Liverpool the next day. He said he was building a team and he might offer Brighton three of his players. He also said he'd guarantee me more money than anywhere else. I said to him, 'It's not an issue of money - I mean, this is Liverpool!' The next day I went to Heathrow airport and met Bob Paisley, Peter Robinson and former chairman John Smith, and went to a hotel room. Within 20 seconds I was saying give me a contract and I'll sign it. Then I signed - it was a no-brainer really.
Liverpool were very successful in those days and had won the European Cup three times by then. Were you nervous about signing for them? There was nervousness. After I'd signed I was wondering where I was going to play, with the likes of Phil Thompson and Alan Hansen already there. Bob Paisley then asked where I thought I should play and we agreed that centre-back was my strongest position, but I also told him I could play in other positions. In those days you usually played in the reserves for 18 months, but Bob threw me straight in, albeit at left back, but thankfully it worked.
Your £900,000 fee was a club record at the time, did that add pressure? It did because people didn't really know who I was. Bob said he'd signed me on the back of one display against Kenny Dalglish, and I'd only played against Liverpool a few times. There was never any pressure from within the club, though; they were fantastic. People may have been thinking £900,000 for me was a lot, but the club were happy to deal with any problems and I got on with it.
Tell us about your debut... I remember two things about my debut: it was in a friendly against Atletico Madrid in Spain and I played in front of 50,000 fans in midfield. I recall they had a Brazilian midfielder who told Bruce Grobbelaar not to do anything to wind them up because the crowd were going mad in the stands. The noise began to settle down, but then we heard a massive roar and I turned around and saw Brucie throwing oranges back into the crowd behind the goal! I looked across at Bob and he was just shaking his head. Also the day of the game, in my first training session, Graeme Souness and Alan Kennedy had a fight! It was surreal to be honest. My first competitive game was against Wolves away, we lost 1-0 and I was playing left-back. I came off the pitch thinking we never played too badly, but the staff went mad at us.
Did you feel the difference straight away after making the swap from Brighton to Liverpool? Yes, people asked me at the time about the difference, and I mean playing for Brighton was great, but this was the real serious business end of playing football. I always said I went to win medals and I was really fortunate during my time there as I won a lot.
Tell us about your first season, in which you won the Championship and the League Cup... I couldn't have dreamt of a better start to my Liverpool career. I was in the side at left-back and then I think Thommo got injured and I was put in with Hansen at centre-back against Leeds at home. We were due to play AZ Alkmaar the following midweek in the European Cup, but Bob pulled me into the office and said due to my lack of experience in European competition he was bringing Thommo back in. As it happened, Alan Kennedy got injured so I played at left-back and we drew 2-2. We weren't particularly great at the back that night and Bob said to me afterwards that he should have left me in there. Then, on my first return to Brighton, Bob said he needed to get Thommo back in, which was fair enough as he said it was nothing to do with my performances. He told me that if I didn't want to be on the bench on my return he would understand and would say I was injured. As it was, I played for the last 20 minutes. I remember the lads stitched me up that night - they said they would follow me out to warm up, but as I ran out they were still sat in the dressing room laughing!
Do you think that is the hardest thing about playing for a big club is fighting with so many good players for a place in the team? Yes, I mean after those two particular moments it [being dropped] never happened again, which was great. But I also think it's a bit of a test on how you take it; whether you sulk or you just get your head down and get one with it.
What did playing for Liverpool in front of the famous Kop mean to you? It made me feel 10 feet tall and it's only when you speak to the opposition you realise how intimidating it was for them. The crowd were fantastic, although I have to say they were spoilt during the early 1980s.
Did they ever get on your back because it seemed like you fitted into that Liverpool side seamlessly? No, it was so easy coming back up north, but at times it was so easy I'd start to think something was going to happen. The crowd at times were turning up at Anfield and virtually saying, 'Go and win 5-0', because, in fairness, most of the time we were winning four or five nil at home. But, if there was a time where maybe we weren't playing as well as we could, a massive roar would go up and I'd just think 'Oh my God'. If it was like that for me, what must it have been like for our opponents?
You played in some memorable games and you scored the 'forgotten goal' against Everton in a game where the fans still sing about Ian Rush's four? I scored when I was on my backside! It came from a throw in and it got flicked on. It must have bounced about 17 times before it got to me. I also thought I'd scored a wonder goal that day, because a cross came in from the right hand side and I was just inside the 18 yard box and I headed it sweetly, but Neville Southall made an unbelievable save. Everyone remembers me for the other goal when Rush scored four, but if that had gone in it would have been better than any of Rushie's - not!
A lot of people say Hansen and yourself were the best defensive partnership in the country, did you just click? Yes, we always got on. We weren't particularly vocal on the pitch, but we just trusted each other's ability and we knew what we were both doing. This is going to sound daft, but we found out many years later that we both learnt Latin at school and we wondered if that had anything to do with it. It would have been great to say we both spoke Latin to each other when we were playing, but our partnership just worked.
Who would you say in your career was the most difficult to play against? I often get asked who was the toughest opponent and who was the best player I ever played with and my answer is always Kenny Dalglish. We joke with him and say: he couldn't run, he's got a big backside and he couldn't head - but he was a genius. When playing with him he knew moves two or three moves before they'd happened. When playing against him he would get the ball and you just couldn't get near him. You could kick him all day, he'd take it and kick you back and never moaned about it. The fella was a genius.
Fans used to say you were the 'master of the slide tackle', is this something you remember? No, not really. I think Bob said one time that of all the people who tackle in the penalty area he would trust me with his life. He couldn't have thought much for his life!
In your first three years at Liverpool you won the Championship each year… I never realised about that for ages. It sounds really blasé, but I never noticed. You've heard the stories of Ronnie Moran coming in with the winners' medals and giving them out and that's how it was. I remember a TV crew came into our dressing room, it might have been the end of those three years, and I'm just sat there with a cup of tea. We'd won the league and I was thinking, 'Happy days'.
Because you were so dominant in England, did our European form disappoint you in those first three years? Yes, we'd struggled. I remember we got beat by a Polish side, then we got knocked out in Bulgaria and I got sent off. I was the first ever Liverpool player sent off in the European Cup and to this day I know I never touched their player. We asked Bulgarian television for the footage so we could defend ourselves, but the footage never came. Then the next year we went out, but you learn from your mistakes.
So in 1984 the wait was over. What do you remember about that particular European Cup campaign? I think we won the competition away from home, and in saying that I'm not just referring to the fact we beat Roma in their own ground, I think we had some very tough away games. Barcelona and Real Madrid weren't particularly great back then, and Bilbao were the Spanish champions. We went there and won 1-0 through a Rushie header. We then went to Benfica and battered them, then Dinamo Bucharest. Sammy Lee scored at home from a corner, and there was a famous incident with Graeme Souness and one of their players. When we went away, their manager reckoned Graeme had punched one of their players and broken his jaw, and their whole focus for the second leg was about revenge. I remember we won that night - Rushie got a couple of goals, and Bobby Robson was the England manager at the time and Romania were in the same group. Joe Fagan came in and tried to play it down saying, 'Oh well we're in the final' and Bobby came in shouting, "That's the best European away performance I've ever seen, unbelievable!" Joe was looking as if to say, 'Oh no Bobby, don't do that, they'll get big headed and arrogant!'
Was that half the battle at Liverpool - trying to keep everyone's feet on the ground because you were so good? Yes, but I don't think it was a battle because once you'd been there 18 months you knew what to expect. There was an example when Ian Rush scored five goals against Luton on a Saturday then in training on the Monday he missed the first chance he got. Ronnie Moran said, 'Same player?' That was him saying, 'You might have scored five on Saturday but you can still miss.' They were all about that, all about mind games, but you didn't realise how clever they were. The bootroom was so far advanced in terms of the things they came out with.
How special was the bootroom? They used to go in on a Thursday afternoon, and we'd say they we're 'pushing and running', which meant they were picking the team. They'd be having a drink and talking about the opposition and how we were going to play. I'd knock on the door and there would be Joe, Ronnie, Roy Evans, Bob Paisley, John Bennison, I think Chris Lawler was there at the time, and Tom Saunders all in there. I'd knock and hear 'Come in' and they'd just stop talking. They'd look at you as if to say, 'What on earth are you going to say?'. I'd ask, 'Can I get picked up at such and such place' and it would be, 'Fine, on your way.' I remember Elton John coming one day with Watford, and we battered them, but his big thing was going in the bootroom.
How excited were you in 1984 to be playing against Roma at their home ground in the European Cup final? Joe was so clever, he just said they were scared of us, that they won't give us a proper pitch to train on and suggested we just went on a walk. We went for the walk then back to the hotel. I used to room with Phil Neal and we had a sleep until about 4pm then woke up and put the television on and saw the ground. 75 per cent of it was full and the game didn't kick off for another four and a half hours. That's when I realised how big this game was. I could get ready at ten-to-three for a three o'clock kick off. I was always ready in my head, it was just put my kit on, put my boots on, and that worked for me. We must have got there an hour and three quarters before kick off and I was thinking, 'What can I do now? I can't even read the programme, it's in Italian.' That was the time where we went for a walk around the pitch, and Souness suggested we walk all the way around the pitch, towards the Roma fans. We weren't sure, but Graeme insisted so we walked around and got so much abuse. As we walked back in towards the dressing room, David Hodgson started singing the song 'I don't know what it is but I love it' and we all knew the words, which was unusual for us, but we all joined in. Unbeknown to us, we were walking past their dressing room singing at the top of our voices. We all know about the game and the penalties, but I remember the Roma manager Nils Liedholm in his after match press conference saying he knew his team were in trouble when he was giving his team talk and they heard singing, and it got louder and louder and louder. They realised it was Liverpool as we were walking up the stairs past the dressing room and the colour in his players faces drained. In the end, it went down to the dreaded penalties and I didn't fancy one. Hansen and I were arguing who was 10th and who was 11th! Of course, with Brucie's wobbly legs, all their top players missed. We slaughtered him after it and said he didn't even save one! Not even close to one of them!
What were the celebrations like? It was simply the best party I've ever had. We went to one of the seven hills of Rome, to what was I reckon a Godfather's gaff. We were sponsored by Crown Paints at the time and I remember a chief executive saying everything was free. I don't remember going to bed! I've even got a picture of us at home dancing, and I'm sure Dalglish is dancing, and if you've seen him dance he's like me and Hansen - it ain't good. So I'm going to keep it and one day auction it.
The next season, you struggled with injuries before the 1985 European Cup final against Juventus... Yes, I dislocated my shoulder, and the club arranged a game for Craig Johnson and myself against Chester. I was told as long as I was okay to play in the final I would be getting operated on in the summer. We went to Heysel and the whole thing was horrendous. We waited hours and hours and nobody wanted to play, but my story is a little bit different from the rest of the team. Within about 70 seconds - I can't remember if I fell over or went to make a tackle - my shoulder came out, I felt such a fraud. Then with the whole emotion with what had happened, I just started crying. To this day, I've never seen any footage from that match - it's the one game I've never watched. The doctor said we would go into the dressing room and see if he could put my shoulder back in, but because it had taken so long to walk back to the dressing room, my body rejected it going in. I was screaming. So the doctor then said he had another idea and told me to lie on the treatment table with my shoulder slightly off the edge, he said he was going to get something heavy for me to swing with my arm and it might click back into place. The heaviest thing he could find was a big bottle of milk which wasn't particularly heavy. It wasn't working, then it was half-time and the boys troop in and after what was going on outside, it was the most surreal thing. I was then told I had to go to hospital and I had my kit and boots still on. I got into a station wagon, it wasn't like a normal ambulance. When we got to the back of the hospital it was like a supermarket loading bay, we backed up to the door and a conveyor belt came out, the medics pressed a button and it carried me 15 yards then I was in the operating theatre! I was impressed by that. They offered to do the operation I was due to have in Liverpool. Then I woke up with my arm in a sling still in my kit, and at the end of my bed was a soldier with a massive machine gun, who said he couldn't speak English. Then the bombshell hit: the Italian journalists had found out I was in the hospital where all the dead and injured had been taken. All the journalists were questioning me, but I was only finding out information as they were telling me. They were ushered out of the room. The next thing Roy Evans came in with my wife at the time, he said it wasn't good, and told me to put my tracksuit on inside out incase the badge was spotted. We got sneaked out of the hospital and went home.
How did it affect the squad and the management? Joe cracked and quite rightly. Two years ago an independent TV company made a two-hour documentary on Heysel and not many of the players appeared on it, but I did because I'd never really talked about it to anybody. I was glad I did, but it was even more horrendous when you heard some of the other stories. It was so frightening, but afterwards I felt a little bit better. In all the times the former players have met and shared a few drinks, we've never sat down and talked about Heysel, ever.
Moving into Kenny's reign, and tell us about 1986 and the double. How does that rank among your other successes at Liverpool? Honestly I think winning my first League Championship was the best. It was in my first year and it was a 42-game slog, the pitches were minging. We were lucky at Melwood because we trained on 'Wembley', as they called it, and it was always decent. But the travel and the diet were not - we were still eating steaks at 12 o'clock before a three o'clock kick off and thinking it was okay to go out and run about! I think being the first year as well because my fee was a lot of money - if I hadn't played the majority of games and we hadn't won anything I would have been thinking was it a good move?
The next season we finished trophyless and the 1987-88 season saw yourself suffer more injuries… Well yes, before then I'd hardly missed any games, only through my shoulder, and that wasn't many. In 1986-87 I snapped my Achilles at home against Wimbledon the week before we got beat by Arsenal in the League Cup. I think both Kevin McDonald and Jim Beglin also had broken legs. We had a series of injuries at that particular time and we just nosedived. Once I snapped my Achilles, I always knew I was going to struggle to play again. I came back and played but it wasn't the same. After a while I said to Kenny that it wasn't improving and I went to see the specialists. My last game was at Anfield against Arsenal, and John Motson, who I've worked with loads since, says he remembers it because it was very strange that the ball came to me in the second half and I just hoofed it into the stand. I told Motty it was because I knew I was coming off and I knew it was over. The club sent me and Kevin McDonald to a specialist who taught people who had been in horrific road accidents to walk again. So we went into his office and were told we had to stay for two days. He told me I would be carrying out a series of exercises over the two days and they would be filmed. At four o'clock the next day he told me to come into his office, and he asked me how I wanted the news. I said, 'Just give it to me' and he said, 'You've got to pack it in.' I went back and told Kenny I was finished. That it was all over, and it was as sudden as that. Then, within a day, I was the Oxford United manager working with Maxwell, but that's a different story!
You still managed to get that fifth league title medal, you won numerous trophies, playing 356 games and scoring 18 goals for Liverpool. How would you like to be remembered by the fans? Just the fact they thought I could play. I think the thing with Liverpool fans is they've seen great players, great teams, great managers and they've also seen some ordinary players, but what they've always appreciated is people who will give their absolute all for the team. The majority of people I see now mention the word 'legend' and I don't particularly agree with that. I think it's a bit of a nothing word. But I speak to so many people and they say that 80s team with me and Hansen, Dalglish, Souness and Rush is the best team they ever saw. That works for me.
http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N164966090708-0801.htm A really good interview that. I thought I'd post for those of you who are interested and have any comments to make.
