Should we leave Masch and Aurelio out?

Now I can see some already reaching for their revolver so for them it's pretty much time to stop reading. So stop if you want. For those who may be interested in a decent debate, carry on reading.

We've saw a 4-0 hammering over Burnely, OK fair enough not the best side in the league and we were at home but it's still a 4-0 win whatever. We seen this without Masch or Aurelio in the side, though come midweek and almost certainly next weekend both will be available for selection again. But including either, more so Masch than Aurelio, will mean changing the side around that helped us win so convincingly. What more is it will mean changing around our two most influencial players today - Stevie and of course Yossi.

Slot Masch back into the middle that means Stevie has to be moved. He'll be pushed up behind Torres which means Kuyt will have to be shifted. He'll go out on the right dislodging Yossi who has just scored a hat trick from the right wing. Now Yossi may play from the left, but is it fair on him that after netting three times he's the one who gets shifted? Is it fair to Stevie that after playing his best game of the season he gets shifted again?

For Aurelio, like I said it isn't as big an issue as it's likely he'll only come in on the left wing, where we haven't got a regular quality player anyway or left back. If it's the latter then it may cause a few disruptions as Insua hasn't done anything to warrant losing his place but it still wouldn't mean three or four players being moved around.

In years gone by when you got injured that was it, you were out the side until either somebody else got injured or somebody wasn't pulling their weight. It was that simple, it's one the reasons players didn't go down as easily as they do now because they knew it could be a long, long time until they got their place back. Now it seems as soon as certain players are fit they're straight back into the side. I personally in this case would like to see us revert back to yesteryear and make Mascherano and Aurelio wait until an opportunity arrises before giving them their positions back.

Insua doesn't deserved to be dropped for Aurelio, Stevie and Lucas worked so well together today that, that partnership deserves a second go and Yossi's hat trick should almost guarantee him the right wing for the up coming Champions League match.

So does today's performance warrant the same XI or are Masch and Aurelio too good to leave out?

Aurelio has always been part of the rotation policy so i don't think it concerns him as much but where Masch is concerned i wouldn't say he is too good to be left out because lately, and this is IMO before anyone slates me, i think he has been going back to his old ways of mouthing off at the ref and has at times looked as though he will get himself sent off. When he is truly focussing on the club and has his head in the game he is one of the best defensive midfielders in world and rightly earns the right to not be left out. Seems the Barca talk has distracted him.

We play a lot of games every season and every player will be left out for a few games, except obviously the spine and every new combination, be it in the centre of midfield, on the wings etc and individual positions will make us ask the question as to whether or not the players they have replaced deserve to automatically come back into the team.

Given recent form etc and todays performance, no Masch and Aurelio don't deserve to walk back into the team because Insua has been making that left back spot his own and Lucas is looking better and better every game and from what i have heard him and Gerrard played really well together today.

Aurelio wouldn't be such a bad choice to come back in, won't change the team as dramatically as DLS already stated.

But with Masch coming back, it would mean screwing up a winning team, and Masch hasn't looked to great so far this year or at the back end of last season, hasn't reached the heights of his first year or so with us. Lucas and Stevie combined well at times today, and it also helped Lucas understand his role better having Stevie next to him. He would never of been expected to go and attack, just play the simple balls and keep it ticking over, whereas with Masch, he seems to be caught between if he should be attacking and spreading the play or sitting back defending, keeping it simple.

Masch shouldn't be coming back into the team unless he is really performing brilliantly in training and Lucas is having a mare.

just put masch in for lucas and change nothing else maybe thats the solution, lucas is still learning....and in reality masch is better.

Here it was only Burnley I'd say something if it was Chelsea, City or Man Utd but we hammered Stoke 4-0 at home and we all know what happened after

In big games you need Masch, on his day is world class... id also play Aquilani if fit central and Gerrard back behind Torres.. Kuyt right and maybe Benayoun Left. If someone is lacking match fitness or unavailable then its good we can rotate players in different areas like Gerrard/Kuyt/Benayoun.Same with Aurelio he can offer more down the left which is good. If we take each game individually and asses strengths and weaknesses of each team, then eploit.. we should be getting plenty of wins, we have as many match winners as our other contenders..  I do think when everyone is fit our squad is strong and we have a good team spirit and an excellent manager, the test is the big games and I'd take Masch to sit in front of the defence anyday, I would of missed him more than Alonso in my honest opinion. lets hope Argentina qualify for the world cup so he cheers up a bit and starts showing his full ability. I understand your opinion dls and its a worthy one, no player should be shifted after a five star performance, but Burnley is Burnley and Manc scum/Chelski/Arsenal is a different proposition, you need to play your best eleven.

Jeez I'm Knackered after writing that.. bed time i think 

It all depends mate, but I don't think that this should be our 'first-choice' selection when say all are fit.

Today the reason for Stevie playing beside Lucas was because Masch was unable to get involved in this. Yes it pushed Kuyt into the centre and Yossi out wide, and Torres was left all in front alone. What I felt was most glaring, was that as much as the partnership with Lucas was there, the understanding between Steven and Torres was broken off. That was one of the reasons why I felt Nando didn't do as well today.

Now this springs up another question, do you really want to break up a Steven-Nando partnership just to see Stevie G back in central midfield partnering Lucas, and then leaving Aquilani/Masch out? Nando was completely outnumbered today, and only with Steven playing off him can Gerrard play the through balls as well as drag defenders away to give Torres more space.

I don't want to see his partnership with Nando broken obviously, because when both of them are on form they'll rip defences apart easily. I only hope that this is a temporary measure, because when Masch and Aquilani is fit they are more than good enough to partner Lucas in midfield. We need Gerrard up front with Torres. Kuyt is proven on the right since he's moved there, when we have a full squad I'll keep him there. Now Riera is too inconsistent for my liking as well, so I'll move Yossi to the left. Yes as much as its unfair to swap their positions after their good game, but the positions don't determine how good a player play, its how much effort he puts in in the game that determines whether his performance is good or not. The positions that they play only has a little effect on their performance.

Insua and Aurelio, before Aurelio gets back to full fitness, match fit, I'll put it as 2 weeks, then I'll continue giving Insua games. More games for Insua would help him mature well, but I don't see much difference between them and I would also like to gve more chances to Insua to grow his maturity and experience of playing in the top flight. However, when Fabio is back I expect some rotation on the leftback slot, its also important not to burn out Insua by putting him through too much because he's only 20. Once Fabio is back I'll give him more games than Insua, but Insua is our future leftback no doubt about that. However, Insua should be played sparingly. Maybe start 30% of the games when Fabio is back.

TO top it all off, if all the players are fit, this is my formation.

--------------------------------Reina-----------------------------------
------Johnson-------Carragher---Agger/Skrtel----Insua/Aurelio
------------------Mascherano/Lucas/Aquilani-------------------
------------------Kuyt---------Gerrard--------Yossi--------------
--------------------------------Torres----------------------------------


And yes, once in a while a tweak in tactics for games, I wouldn't mind it as long as the gaffer knows what is he thinking.

EDIT: And actually in fact DLS, you cannot be sure that Yossi was playing out right, Kuyt was in the centre. It could have been Yossi at the centre (seeing that most goals came from him running through the middle and playing there) and Kuyt on the right, or a 4-4-2 with Kuyt up front with Torres and Yossi on the right.

I don't think it's fair for injured or not-selected players to jump back straight into the first 11 when some of them have been at their best from where they started.

Although I 'd love to see Aurelio again, it isn't fair for Insua to be dropped just because Aurelio is back fit. Insua hasn't put a wrong foot in since the season started and therefore should keep his place. Also, the Stevie-Lucas partnership last night looked really good. They got on well and because both of them are 2 different type of players, there was some sort of balance. Masch and Lucas are almost similar. However, I'd pick the players depending on the opposition. When experience is needed, I believe Aurelio and Mascherano are the guys.

I believe, Torres excels when Gerrard is played behind him which wasn't the case yesterday as Gerrard was back in the heart of midfield. So this basically means that if we want Torres and Gerrard to rip defences apart, it would have to be Masch and Lucas at the back.

When Aquilani gets into the side, I think the best formation would be like the one RoF stated.

First to laud the debate as one of the best I have seen since I arrived to the forum 

The whole issue is about a certain match / opponent. When we need experience then we should naturally play Masch and Aurelio rather than Lucas or Insua. What must also be taken into account is a current level of fitness of involved players. Finally, tactics are the area where Rafa is the master so he knows the best which players would suit his plan for a specific game most properly.

During the previous season Rafa was mostly deploying his favourite 4-2-3-1 system which had proved to be the best for us given the team we had at that time. After Xabi's departure to Madrid it became obvious that some tweaks must be done in order to neutralize the weakness in midfield area having emerged instantly. This is a process that always take a certain amount of time to be successfully finished hence our unexpectedly poor start of the season was presumably a result of that.

If I were Rafa I would probably try to temporarily switch to 4-3-3 (4-1-2-2-1) thus giving an additional cover at the central midfield area to allow Lucas some more time for adapting before he is finally ready to take a full responsibility. Therefore it would look like the following:

Pepe

Johnson   Carra   Agger/Skrtel    Aurelio/Insua

Masch

Lucas        Gerrard

Kuyt                              Yossi

Nando

In this system Masch's primary task would be protecting the backline and covering a vacated space at the flanks when fullbacks go forward as Masch is the most capable of performing such a demanding job. Stevie (central attacking midfielder) would act as a creative midfield force but in a way different from Alonso (deep-lying playmaker) and with more attacking mindset whilst Lucas (central defensive midfielder) would actually be assigned a "dirty" job with patroling the pitch and pressing opposition to make their job as much difficult as possible. So for Lucas that would represent a period of case-hardening to eventually deserve a regular place.

And when Aquilani comes back fit we will get even more options to think about.

The simple answer is no, Lucas has had a couple of above average performances remember he was subbed in his first 3 games of the season and your talking about playing him ahead of the Monster. Masch has being outstanding for Liverpool and is one of our few genuine world class players. Lucas is far from world class some people on here may suggest he might be world class someday but that is definitely not now.

Ya he did okay yesterday with Stevie but then Masch would be excellant with Gerrard and he was with the creative Alonso last season. This is a terrible knee jerk suggestion.

Remember Masch has 52 caps for Argentina and is currently there captain(I know there sh#te under Maradona but I can remember him starring in the 2006 World Cup and a journalist saying he was the outstanding player in the early part of the tournament) Lucas has 2 caps for Brazil and has made little impact dislodging Gilberto Silva remember him the lad that was surplus to requirements at Arsenal two seasons ago.

It's certainly a tough question in the light of our weekend win.

I much prefer Aurelio at left back anyway so he'd be in 100% of the time for me as i think he's a far better attacking player than Insua and alongside Johnson it gives us the attacking wingbacks option.

As for Masch, i think that Rafa knows best on this and to be honest Masch hasn't been outstanding in the games so far this season and i think the line-up against Burnley worked very well. Also, once Aquilani is fit i think Rafa will just go back to the formation he employed last season with Aqua-man slotting into the Xabi role and everything will return to normal.

Well, like you said earlier DLS, it's Burnley.

Would love to keep the line-up we had, but like we all know, Rafa will most definitely tweak the system. Best to keep Gerrard playing the Alonso role or better still, the free-roaming role while Lucas (He has improved greatly and can fill Alonso's shoes later) gets some bench time.

Benayoun is always best coming from the right flank.

It was always going to be a tough one between Aurelio and Insua. Insua has been very good.

Didn't Pepe make a comment recently that Aureilo was the most technically gifted player in the Premiership, while I don't agree with this I still think he is our first choice, but Insua is great back up to have.

Yossi isn't exactly new to our team. Form wise, we should look for stability and sustainability rather than a one-game world-class performance, followed by a couple of mediocre displays. He did impress me and you I can assume in his last match, but it's not his usual game. Maybe the level of competition was too low and maybe Gerrard being back, gave the boys up front a lot of balls to be creative with. He should play ahead of Babel and Rieira to say the least.

I think Mascherano's form has dipped recently, (even with Argentina when I watched both their matches). He is a good defender, but killer passes isn't his best known attribute. Maybe dropping him for the sake of encouraging him to improve is valid, but he is still better than Lucas and should be picked ahead of the youngster.

As for Aurelio, I'm glad Insua is playing well. With the Aurelio record of injuries, I think he deserves to be a rotation player. YET, Rafa just adores him. If we get Roberto Carlos in his prime, Rafa will still pick Aurelio ahead. To be honest, I'm sick and bored of Aurelio's injuries, you can all attack me for it, but we cling too much to them busted players. Degen was a disgrace transfer, Aurelio got injured for ages, Aquilani (I hope it was Roma's doctors' fault) played 10% of his last 2 seasons with Roma due to injuries, and yet we bought him for 20million quid, and guess what.. yea, injured at arrival.  So what I'm saying is, I hope Aurelio isn't back in the team as a first-team player, and Insua is kept to get used to Class A footie, and become a great player emerging from the youth ranks.

I would always have Mascherano playing as his type of ability of breaking up the opositions play is so valuble to the team, Insua for me has improved every game up to now and doesn't deserve to lose his place at the moment but with Aurellio fit again its another option for us.

What I felt was most glaring, was that as much as the partnership with Lucas was there, the understanding between Steven and Torres was broken off. That was one of the reasons why I felt Nando didn't do as well today.

TBH, Fernando has looked lost in every match even though he has scored in most.

Hmmmm a genuine case of why fix it if its not broken ?, Well to echo some comments the performance was good against Burnley, but it was only Burnley a newly promoted club with a massive gulf in class between themselves and us. I'd have to say we should go into every league game with our strongest possible line up and if that means upsetting one or two players along the way so be it.

I don't think Masch and Lucas as a central pairing works IMO they are far too similar types of players as has been shown when Lucas is playing a deeper defensive role his performaces have raised a bar, again only IMO. So my take would be to Leave Gerrard Centrally alongside Masch because as a player Masch is head and shoulders above Lucas and is argubaly the best in his position in the world.

Would I drop Insua for Aurelio ?, I'm not so sure I would, In all honesty I think Aurelio needs to come back from his injury get some minutes on the pitch to ge him up to speed and full fitness and then its up to him through his performances to dislodge Insua and make the spot his own.

What worked for me against Burnley was not Lucas doing the holding job and doing a very good job of it, nor was it Insua bombing up & down the flanks delivering balls into the box, It was Steven Gerrard dominating the center of the park, pulling the strings and dictating the play, Burnley could not live with it and I've said since the season has got under way that was something we have missed from the central midfield & the one player in our ranks who can offer us that is Gerrard so my only change to the team that beat Burnley would be to include Masch then I beilieve we'd see more of the same and the results to come flying in.

Good question!

I would say no on both accounts.

Think Lucas and Insua are both improving well, but for me Masch and Lucas do the same job and cant play together. Although Lucas and Stevie played well together Saturday I'd opt for Masch in the holding role regardless of if Stevie continues there or moves back up top when Aquilani's fit.

As for Aurellio, would give him the shirt over Insua simply due to the fact his delivery is top quality and gives us more going forward although I think defensively they're about equal.

Yossi was class in the more advanced role on saturday but it was agsinst burnley lets try it against a big team and see how we do