What can Rafa do differently ?

I can see reasoning as to why Rafa has gone down these pathways.

I can see the reasoning too mate and I support and back Rafa %100 as I know he has the best interests of Liverpool FC at heart, but just as players can infuriate me with little things, Torres at the beginning of the season sitting on his arse waving his arms around and whining about every decision that did not go his way as an example, Rafa also has these little things, end of the day he's only human and has his faults like any one else, its not having a pop at Rafa, just a chance for every one to spout off what they'd like to see Rafa to differently and it could be quite a debateful topic, Given the pro Rafa and anti Rafa camps.

There should be no pro or anti rafa camps. There should only be honest opinions on him. I thinks he is the man for the job but it does annoy me at times how a lot of people see no wrong in him or choices he makes. Nobody is perfect he makes mistakes and when he does it should be pointed out. And because somebody points it out doesnt make them anti Rafa or "sack Rafa"   

The whole why do LFC play two holiding midfielders and that we should bin it off, well in my opinion, thats complete rubbish. With two holding midfielders it makes Liverpool extremely difficult to beat. It works in Europe especially but it also works in the league too. First things first, you make yourseleves unbeatable, then you push on and work out how your going to win the game and score goal ( Even in home matches ). It worked so well for us last season so why change it this season? People are only bringing this up now because we've had some bad results and there looking for excuses. This wasn't once an issue last season and everybody was going on about how great our formation was.

The problem with it this season is Lucas and Masc aren't creative enough. No matter what, Masc is going to be in the team. He isn't a creative footballer and instead he has a great work engine and he breaks up play/wins the ball back for us. So the problem is Lucas. Yes, he has improved, and yes hes adapted himself as a good squad player for Liverpool. But as soon as Aquilani can play the better, because it will be a straight swop for Lucas. Some of you on here are saying Aquilani should play off Torres. Again, thats rubbish. Gerrard and Torres are the most feared strike force in Europe. Aquilani is a box to box midfielder, exactly like Paul Scholes in his prime, he will fit in perfectly with the Alonso role.

The substitutions, i think thats just a case of Rafa having belief in the team he chose for that game. Whether its right or not, i can understand why sometimes he may not make subs etc. If hes picked a team, he believes that team will win that game, or atleast get a result. There will be times when we are not playing well or the other team takes the lead, but Rafa probably just has belief that the side he chose will bounce back.

Players out of position. Kuyt shouldnt be played on the right? Again, rubbish! Same as the two holding midfielders argument, Kuyt playing on the right wasn't an issue last season. Its only being brought up now because hes had a average/poor season so far. But who hasn't? its only johnson and masc who have had good seasons so far. Insua has been dreadful at times but i don't see people coming on here saying INSUA SHOULD NOT PLAY LEFT BACK AND INSTEAD HE SHOULD PLAY RIGHT MID. its just a stupid argument. Kuyt does a job on that right flank and i wouldn't have him anywhere else.

Our strike force is poor like somebody has already mentioned. When nando is out we are well and truly goosed. Thats where babel should come in. Don't understand why rafa keeps playing him out wide when alls he ever says is play me upfront. Ngog looks like a good player but personaly, i think Babel would do a job as a out and out striker. I think Rafa made a mistake in selling Keane. Was a childish decision and it came down to just being stubborn because keane 'wasnt his signing'. Despite what some of you may say, Keane is world class. We finished 4 points off the pace last season, if we kept Keane for the remainder of the season theres no doubt in my mind we would have won it. I'm 100% certain Keane would have won us that extra 5 points we needed last term, so to sell him, for me, was absolutely ridiculous. Especially when he hasn't been replaced.

To sum up, i love Rafa, and theres basically nothing i disagree with him about, the only problem that i can see is we have no strength in depth. Rafa has to take part of the blame because hes sold alot of players. But theres an argument for that, if a player comes in and doesn't turn out to be good enough, then they have to be moved on. Rafa also needs to sell players to buy in some situations. So it comes down to the owners.

We are only 2-3 players away from winning the league. Rafa has done that, nobody else, just Rafa. If he had the right backing, LFC would win the league, no question about it.

it could be quite a debateful topic, Given the pro Rafa and anti Rafa camps.

Absolutely. Hence my response.

Every manager does have flaws, but these flaws are often reasoned. Unless your Graemme Souness.

Every manager does have flaws, but these flaws are often reasoned. Unless your Graemme Souness.

True !!!! 

Fazza the difference last year was we had the players to play the 2 holding midfielder system because 1 was very creative and could hit the pass from 6 or 60 yards.

We don't have that type of player this year and that's why we are easy to read.

Fazza the difference last year was we had the players to play the 2 holding midfielder system because 1 was very creative and could hit the pass from 6 or 60 yards.

We don't have that type of player this year and that's why we are easy to read.

Totally agree with that and Alonso's role was not that of a holding midfielder he was essentially deployed as a deep lying play maker and as Lucas is being employed in that role his abilities are been found wanting, no matter what the aspects of his game he has improved he has a long way go to in terms of playing that role effectively.

here's another possible perspective for a manager: who are the 11 best players on the team and what is the best formation to play them in?

no matter how many lists I make, ngog, lucas and insua do not fall in the category of LFC's best eleven and they have been starting every important game in recent memory.  They take up space, do nothing productive and occasionally give the ball away.

For god's sake Rafa, just play Kuyt up front, even Babel.  Stop leaving Benayoun, our most creative player so far this season, on the bench.

IMO, best eleven (w/ current "injuries" , in quotes b/c is aquilani really injured?)

kuyt
gerrard
benayoun
reira
babel
masherano
carragher
agger
johnson
aurelio
reina

i realize some people may have issues with babel, and perhaps aurelio, but at least they are both players that can make a difference in the game (remamber babel's crakcer in the CL and aurelio with set pieces)

of course if torres is fit, he will slide in for babel.  

any comments?

Babels injured

Fazza21
Our strike force is poor like somebody has already mentioned. When nando is out we are well and truly goosed. Thats where babel should come in. Don't understand why rafa keeps playing him out wide when alls he ever says is play me upfront. Ngog looks like a good player but personaly, I think Babel would do a job as a out and out striker. I think Rafa made a mistake in selling Keane. Was a childish decision and it came down to just being stubborn because keane 'wasnt his signing'. Despite what some of you may say, Keane is world class. We finished 4 points off the pace last season, if we kept Keane for the remainder of the season theres no doubt in my mind we would have won it. I'm 100% certain Keane would have won us that extra 5 points we needed last term, so to sell him, for me, was absolutely ridiculous. Especially when he hasn't been replaced.



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Sorry take you to task about that.  Rafa had documented that signing Keane was dependent on signing Barry.  He stipulated that and as Parry didn't manage it we were then stuck with 1/2 a plan.  Gerrard/Torres Keane/Barry.  Then Keane was v average I'm sorry but he was for us how many goals did he score 4 I think.  I agree we needed a replacement but that's when the transfer budget was pilfered by H&B!!

Well written Fazza21, enjoyed that.

Fazza the difference last year was we had the players to play the 2 holding midfielder system because 1 was very creative and could hit the pass from 6 or 60 yards.

We don't have that type of player this year and that's why we are easy to read.

agree with you mate. its what i was explaining in my post, a big problem we have had this season is the absence of alonso. Lucas has took over the role but IMO he simply isn't good enough. Well no, its not that he isn't good enough its just where asking alot from him to create things out of the blue like Alonso did, Lucas simply isn't that sort of player. When masc is unfit or suspended then i wouldn't mind Lucas filling in at all but to play both Lucas and Masc is a no-go in my eyes.

But my point is, that our system is still the right system, we are still the same side as last season. We play well with the two holding midfielders, and i don't know what anybody else thinks, but when i watch Liverpool im pretty confident where not going to get beat. Even when were going through some bad form i still think we will at the very least draw the game.

Theres not many teams who open us up at all. We mostly conceed goals threw set pieces - something that can be worked on and sorted out.

Aquilani, from what ive seen and heard, is a very similar type of player to Alonso but apparantly he has a more midfield engine about himself. Anyways, when he can play, he will take over the Alonso role and thats that. Providing hes the player we all hope and think he is, Liverpool will go back to battering teams again week in week out.

So theres no reason to panic and swop players and systems around IMO, we've almost cracked it, like i said, were basically 2-3 players away from winning the league. Thats how close we are. And thats how far Rafa has brought us. If we hang onto him for another season, and our key players, Liverpool will push chelsea and the mancs to the last game next season, if we haven't already won it.

Excellent points. Heres some of my own for rafa to ponder

Kuyt as a winger hasnt worked this season. It should still be an option for opposition strong down that side but not an automatic selection.

Gerrard as a striker hasnt been working either. Little goals and lack of decent ball are just frustrating him. Drop him back to mid.

Play Benayoun off the striker. He shines this way instead of chasing long balls down the left.

Lucas and masch too similar. Masch better Lucas just a backup.

For god sakes play babel. Hes 4th best attacking option more creative than any of our wingers except benayoun and his consistency will not improve by not playing. Uve shown faith in lucas show it to babel otherwise sell and end this debate.

Sell riera,el zhar,voronin and get one true left sided player eg silva.

Subs: make subs to win games not cement draws.

Fitness:If hes not fit dont put him on the bench then.If he is fit and we need him bloody play him.

Aurelio is a better defender/player than insua. Play him at left back until hes injured. Have balls play the best players mix loyalty with performance.

Agree with all your points

The whole why do LFC play two holiding midfielders and that we should bin it off, well in my opinion, thats complete rubbish. With two holding midfielders it makes Liverpool extremely difficult to beat. It works in Europe especially but it also works in the league too. First things first, you make yourseleves unbeatable, then you push on and work out how your going to win the game and score goal ( Even in home matches ). It worked so well for us last season so why change it this season? People are only bringing this up now because we've had some bad results and there looking for excuses. This wasn't once an issue last season and everybody was going on about how great our formation was.

Well its a results driven business. Last year it worked this year its obviously not hence no CL and 7th in the league. After 20 or so matches its not a knee jerk reaction to say its not working. If its broken fix it.

[quote author=fazza21 link=topic=25810.msg524104#msg524104 date=1260178249

Players out of position. Kuyt shouldnt be played on the right? Again, rubbish! Same as the two holding midfielders argument, Kuyt playing on the right wasn't an issue last season. Its only being brought up now because hes had a average/poor season so far. But who hasn't? its only johnson and masc who have had good seasons so far. Insua has been dreadful at times but I don't see people coming on here saying INSUA SHOULD NOT PLAY LEFT BACK AND INSTEAD HE SHOULD PLAY RIGHT MID. its just a stupid argument. Kuyt does a job on that right flank and I wouldn't have him anywhere else.


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Again last year it worked look at the results and his individual performances. but this year I dont think it has. Im only judging on whats been happening on the pitch this year. Park does a similar job for united but hes not undroppable so dont know why Kuyt is. Insua has been poor many times this season and I think Aurelio should start if available every time in front of him. Again its not working so lets try something else until we start winning games. I know we're tough to beat but we're also completely out of ideas attacking wise with only the prospect of Aquilani as hope.

Otherwise completely agree with all your other points!!

I am now retired, but i had my own business for 20 years and if any of my lads failed to produce the goods i think i was quite entitled to ask them why, i worked hard and i expected them to do the same, we were a team, just as Liverpool are our team and we are entitled to ask why when they don't produce the results and to criticise the boss if he is making the wrong decisions and he's made a load of them and if as a lot of you say he's stubborn, then i say, if he's wrong and he won't change then there is no future for our club whiles he's here, remember when Souness took over, it didn't take the powers to be long to realise that he was not our man, but by the time they did it was too late, any how why this obsession with foreign managers, our best ones have all come from GB, am i right?

stop picking players based on last years form. no favourites. see how england plays since cappello come in and has no favourites
okay playing players while there injured makes no sense to me at all. put the players lonhg term health first
buying players while there injured
bringt young players who have really shone in the first team more chances kelly for one,pacheo should be moved up the pecking order

The whole why do LFC play two holiding midfielders and that we should bin it off, well in my opinion, thats complete rubbish. With two holding midfielders it makes Liverpool extremely difficult to beat. It works in Europe especially but it also works in the league too. First things first, you make yourseleves unbeatable, then you push on and work out how your going to win the game and score goal ( Even in home matches ). It worked so well for us last season so why change it this season? People are only bringing this up now because we've had some bad results and there looking for excuses. This wasn't once an issue last season and everybody was going on about how great our formation was.

The formation worked last season because we had somebody who could make a forward pass. This season we have 2 holding midfielders, one of whom is trying hard to create something with a range of passes (masch) but isn't really suceeding and the other which only passes sideways (Lucas). 2 holding midfielders doesn't make us extremely difficult to beat. How many times have we been beaten or conceded stupid goals this season? Plus Lucas is a better tackler than Alonso so if anything we should have conceded less goals this season compared to last.

The formation worked last season because we had somebody who could make a forward pass. This season we have 2 holding midfielders, one of whom is trying hard to create something with a range of passes (masch) but isn't really suceeding and the other which only passes sideways (Lucas). 2 holding midfielders doesn't make us extremely difficult to beat. How many times have we been beaten or conceded stupid goals this season? Plus Lucas is a better tackler than Alonso so if anything we should have conceded less goals this season compared to last.

I think what it comes down to mate and what you are trying to get at is, if you have a midfield that are dominating and creating enough chances to win games it alleviates the pressure on your defense.

Both Lucas and Mascherano for the want of trying simply do have the intelligence bision and the ability to distribute a ball like Alonso.

So I guess the solution and remedy you are looking for is for a player to step in that can do it i'e Gerrard or Aquilani ?

So the moral of the story is, Rafa stop being so stubborn put to one side your loyalties and do whats best for the good of Liverpool FC ?

The formation worked last season because we had somebody who could make a forward pass. This season we have 2 holding midfielders, one of whom is trying hard to create something with a range of passes (masch) but isn't really suceeding and the other which only passes sideways (Lucas). 2 holding midfielders doesn't make us extremely difficult to beat. How many times have we been beaten or conceded stupid goals this season? Plus Lucas is a better tackler than Alonso so if anything we should have conceded less goals this season compared to last.

disgaree with you. Alonso was a great tackler, but his passing and shooting ability out shone that. Lucas still makes silly mistakes and gives cheap fouls away around our box. Giving the opposition a dangerous opportunity. This probably boils down to experience though and the fact the premiership is such a quick league.

You said we leak goals? Again i disagree with you mate. Vast majority, going from memory here, we have conceeded this term have been from set pieces. Like i said in a previous post, Liverpool are very hard to break down. How often do teams open us up? Very rarely. Unless its a wonder strike or a cheap free kick we hardly ever seem to conceed. Thats due to tactics and formations.

We have been beat a few times this season yes.  Away to spurs and chelsea were always going to be tough games though. We got done by a beachball at Sunderland which changed the whole course of the game, and at home to Villa, well ok yeah we should be winning them games but lets not forget Villa are a great side on their day and can match anybody in the league.

Our 'bad form' this season has not been based on our tactics IMO. Its based on rotten luck with injuries and that we have no strength in depth, something i blame the owners for and not Rafa.

stop picking players based on last years form. no favourites. see how england plays since cappello come in and has no favourites
okay playing players while there injured makes no sense to me at all. put the players lonhg term health first
buying players while there injured
bringt young players who have really shone in the first team more chances kelly for one,pacheo should be moved up the pecking order

Can see where your coming from. But only if its seasons down the line. Like Michael Owen now, if he goes to the world cup, that will be based on pure reputation, because hes a cripple now and hes passed it. Everybody knows that.

But kuyt has gone threw some poor form but the season isn't half way through yet. Kuyt is picked on the right hand side for his work rate, think we all agree with that. There isn't another player suited on that right hand side at our club at the moment who would put in a shift as much as kuyt, track back etc. Kuyt might not be the most exciting player in the world but he certainly does his job. A player like Babel, el zahr, even yossi on the right could leave us Vulnerable, especially now we have Johnson who loves to push on and get forward.

Theres the famous saying, why fix something thats not broken. And it applies to us right now. We have our formation, we have our set up, we have the players. We are within an inch of winning this bloody premiership. As soon as Aquilani is fit, he will fit into the Alonso role, and we will carry on from where we left off last season. We are still the same team as last year. We just need to be patient.