Shake it up Rafa

So another p**s poor display against a side we should be battering. How long does continue for? Weve had half a season of it already. The time is now for Rafa to shake the team up, and himself wjile hes at it!

Example of why we need a shake up is Gerrard. What a player we all know that. But his form is crap, has been since we went out of the champions league. But hes a shoe in in Rafas 11. He scored today fair enough but overall was s**te. Drop him drop Kuyt drop Insua and I mean out of the squad for a few games. Let them realise they dont own a place in the team.

DROP STEVIE! Yes drop him why not were playing muck with him wont be any worse without him. Reading were hungrier today and thats very wrong. Our lads owe us themselves and the club a good run of games but they dont seem intented on giving them. The FA cup is an outlet for them to payback for the crap season to date. But no we see an equal game against a struggling championship side. We hoof the ball around the place and its not good enough for Liverpool

Rafa sort this out and sort it now

Agree about dropping Stevie I'd even drop him ahead of Kuyt because atleast his sh*t form hasn't been through lack of trying.

Entirely agree.

If there is some dressing room disharmony at the root of our poor performances then things need to be shaken up.  Watching Gerrard waltz around that pitch doing F**k all today was a joke.  I agree that Benitez needs to adopt a different strategy and get a lot more ruthless on some of the 'names' at the club.

Players seem to be getting on to the teamsheet based on their past performances.

Gerrard, Insua, Kuyt do not deserve to be shoe ins at all in that team.  I've heard that some off the field things may be affecting Gerrard - if that's the case then he either grows up and gets on with it, or he can sit out a few games.

If I was the manager and some of my bigger players were threatening my job by underperforming then I would be offering the chance for others to turn things around.

SG has scored key goals in two of our last 3 games. If we dropped him, even when not playing that well, we'd be truely fu**ed.
Who's going to score goals for us - Lucas ? Just an assist from him would be appreciated.

SG has scored key goals in two of our last 3 games. If we dropped him, even when not playing that well, we'd be truely fu**ed.

If he wasn't wasting one of our shirts we might not have needed 'key' goals.

If he wasn't wasting one of our shirts we might not have needed 'key' goals.

?

 I've heard that some off the field things may be affecting Gerrard -

Im sorry to hear that I truly am. But if thats the case then its even more imperative to leave him out. I love Stevie but Liverpool is what comes first

blow me two shots on goal in the second half against a championship side. drop players who arent performing how long will torres stay in this enviroment he could have scored 20 goals playing for chelsea. stevie is past his best now never going to be the stevie of old

And start putting some more time and faith into the lads like Pacheco, Spearing etc. They have shown at times they can play damn good, and especially Pacheco, are deserving of a bit more than cameos. Pacheco could really be a game turner i feel.

Help..

So another p**s poor display against a side we should be battering. How long does continue for? Weve had half a season of it already. The time is now for Rafa to shake the team up, and himself wjile hes at it!

Example of why we need a shake up is Gerrard. What a player we all know that. But his form is crap, has been since we went out of the champions league. But hes a shoe in in Rafas 11. He scored today fair enough but overall was s**te. Drop him drop Kuyt drop Insua and I mean out of the squad for a few games. Let them realise they dont own a place in the team.

DROP STEVIE! Yes drop him why not were playing muck with him wont be any worse without him. Reading were hungrier today and thats very wrong. Our lads owe us themselves and the club a good run of games but they dont seem intented on giving them. The FA cup is an outlet for them to payback for the crap season to date. But no we see an equal game against a struggling championship side. We hoof the ball around the place and its not good enough for Liverpool

Rafa sort this out and sort it now

Yes Gerrards form is  not good but the are 3 or 4 players a lot worse than Stevie and even when he plays poorly 1 pass will lead to a goal or he will pop up and get one himself.

Was actually going to make a topic like this myself, couldn't agree more

Too right Brian that was an utterly dissapointing affair even by our own sh*t standards this term ,had to trudge home in the snow truly pissed off by what i see as players not dying for the shirt and that shouldn,t be allowed to happen in any circumstances .
Dont know whats up but it is glaringly obvious that something is.

Silly comments about Gerrard being past his best. Will you be saying that when his form changes? I doubt it.

But to drop anyone who is out of form should definitely be considered. It might wake people up.

Mainly I would get Aurelio in at left back as he is more solid than Insua, more aware and can actually pass to a red shirt. Kuyt could e dropped if we actually had a right winger...

Gerrard has nothing to play for this season now, it's as simple as that. He will take no pride in winning the FA Cup or the Europa League because he's been there, done that and probably thinks himself too good for those competitions. He wants the Premiership and Champions League, and to be honest always has. So now his best chance of glory this year is the World Cup with England, he's not gonna risk losing that chance by putting himself into the 50/50 challenges he used to or the gut bursting runs he's capable of. Just look at the difference in his celebrations between tonight's goal and the one he scored the other week against Wolves. 

Some of the other players simply rely too heavily on Gerrard. When he's there, they expect him to produce the magic he's done so often in the past. They don't take the responsibility, instead they pass it on to Gerrard who is walking round with a face like a slapped arse.

The rest of the players just aren't good enough. And unfortunately that's been the case of this club for far too long. Quite a fair of bit the squad not actually being good enough.

So a shake up is needed. "Star" names do need dropping because it's all about current form, not what they've done in the past. It's about what they're doing in the present.

Him and Kuyt shouldn't have played today imo, Pacheco and Eccleston would have been better as they'd want to impress and fight for a possible place.

Him and Kuyt shouldn't have played today imo, Pacheco and Eccleston would have been better as they'd want to impress and fight for a possible place.

But if Raffa had have played Eccleston and Pacheco and we drew the it would have been we should have played Gerrard and Kuyt

Don't know whether our reserves would have been up to the rigours of that match - even though they are good it may have been too much.  But I agree Stevie does need a kick up the jacksie!!

But if Raffa had have played Eccleston and Pacheco and we drew the it would have been we should have played Gerrard and Kuyt

Would we have drawn though? We shall never know...

I think Kuyt will be dropped if Maxi does come on loan but i think Stevie just needs to switch to LM cause dropping him would destroy morale and would put Rafa's head on the chopping block if it fails.. It is very easy for us to sit here and type these great ideas but it doesn't fall back on us when it fails and not many of you are looking at it in that way. As for Insua he just needs to learn and isn't ready yet....

The more I watch us this season the more I begin to think...

are we turning into a simply counter-attack team? We never seem to dominate games anymore, we seem to let the opposition have possession.

Aurelio needs to be at LB, he's much better than Insua, and he's shown that every match.

Keep Pepe and drop the lot of them. They have all been getting away with sh*t displays for too long.........where's me boots!

Silly comments about Gerrard being past his best. Will you be saying that when his form changes? I doubt it.

So far this season he hasn't even shown a glimpse of his form changing, games have been passing him by and he hasn't been having a major influence on them. His passing, free-kicks, shooting, corners and general play has been well off par, not what you expect to be seeing from your captain.

Torres, Reina, Benayoun, Ngog and Lucas and have been our only consistant players this season, all the rest have been awful. Kuyt, Insua, Gerrard and Carragher all fit into the that category the most.

Gerrard should be dropped, but if Rafa did that he'd no doubt get sh*t from the fans, press and the pundits, which he dosen't want.

So another p**s poor display against a side we should be battering. How long does continue for? Weve had half a season of it already. The time is now for Rafa to shake the team up, and himself wjile hes at it!

Example of why we need a shake up is Gerrard. What a player we all know that. But his form is crap, has been since we went out of the champions league. But hes a shoe in in Rafas 11. He scored today fair enough but overall was s**te. Drop him drop Kuyt drop Insua and I mean out of the squad for a few games. Let them realise they dont own a place in the team.

DROP STEVIE! Yes drop him why not were playing muck with him wont be any worse without him. Reading were hungrier today and thats very wrong. Our lads owe us themselves and the club a good run of games but they dont seem intented on giving them. The FA cup is an outlet for them to payback for the crap season to date. But no we see an equal game against a struggling championship side. We hoof the ball around the place and its not good enough for Liverpool

Rafa sort this out and sort it now

That is a very good post Brian and every word is true.At the moment we have too many players  who do not appear to have any fight or real desire to win when wearing the RED of Liverpool Football Club,and that saddens me so much.The way we are playing lately the youth team would show more pride and determination and would of probably beaten Reading as well.

Rafa needs to act & do it now or he will be out of a job.

Today was a joke feel very sorry for the fans who travelled
they had the piss taken out of them.We played a struggling
championship side with no F***ing manager and they were
the better side.

Players who are not performing or who are not up to it must
be dropped now.

Whatever sh*t is going on behind the scenes {and something
defo is with stevie} must be confronted and sorted its time to earn
your crust Rafa.While you still can


 

I Think  Rafa needs to start changing things, the football we played tonight like all season. is awful, is Rafa a long ball merchant because that is what we have played all season.

The wide positions needs to be sorted out Kuyt should not play there again this season neither should Aurelio. To be honest I'd give Stevie a go and the right side and I'd play Babel on the left side.

You need pace and creativity out wide and we have neither at the moment. Barring Torres tonight it must have being the slowest Liverpool team ever. I thought pace was meant to be important in modern football.

There are a number of players under performing at the moment, but talking about dropping players... Insua! What a waste of space.  He is so poor at defending, so poor in passing, so poor in keeping possession (a defender giving the ball away?? not a good idea!).  I can't believe how slow he is too!  Everytime i see him challenged by the opposition for a loose ball down the wing I cringe.  80% of the time the attacker will be first to it - and he will have to respond in fouls which lead to goals (as today did).  Why can't he learn to move??

Come to think of it... our whole defence is slow.  Real slow. 

The positive on games like this, it gives me hope that maybe I should quit my desk job and put on my boots.  Even I have a chance of getting into our team at the moment.  They are nothing but amateurs - with no desire!  You get more passion out of a school football team.  At least school football teams want to win.  I don't know what Liverpool FC want at the moment.  They play as if its just a job.  They are working their 90 min shift and looking at their watches.  They have the easiest jobs in the world, getting paid ridiculous amounts of money to make us happy (!!) and they are failing miserably.  Most of them would have been sacked by now if this was a commercial company dependant on business success.

To be honest I think the notion of dropping Gerrard which most of you seem to agree with is ridiculous. Yes Gerrard has been way below the standard expected of him but he hasn't been playing as useless as some of you are saying. I agree with shaking things up and when I say that I mean playing what is actually the best 11. Our best 11 definitely contains Gerrard. Why is nobody saying drop Lucas? He has been piss poor aswell. Why are people so quick to jump on the back of our captain, the man that has performed head and shoulders above the majority of the squad for the last 5/6 years? Doing so while defending a player that has been consistently awful and offers nothing to the team.

I agree with dropping Kuyt and Insua. Kuyt has been shockingly bad and it infuriates me to see Benayoun, who has been our best outfield player this season, being left on the bench. Insua has also been found out, right now he just isn't up to the level required.

i would love to see pacheco and eccleston get a chance

Don't agree with dropping Gerrard at all, it's ridiculous. To be honest with you he's hasn't performed well due to his exceptional standards, but we all take him for granted.

We all think he's a mircale worker who's expected to lift the team and help them to victory in every game. That simply isn't the case. A bit of odd dip in form for a top player and the drop in standard is much obvious as compared to other average players we have in the team.

The fact is he's nearing 30. Obviously as he grows older he can't be running as fast as he used to, and my gut tells me he's fed up with the situation surrounding the club, which is obviously clear for me. The off-field problems ain't helping his cause and the last thing the captain needs is to get dropped.

Like I said such a top player he is, he pulls us out of the rut everytime just like Torres and when he isn't performing up to our exceptional requirements then he gets bollocked. Gerrard is human afterall, he has a brain to think and know what's going on with his performances. Fact for me is he pulled us out of a defeat at Reading yesterday and scored the goal that led us to victory against Wolves. If it weren't for him we'll probably might not even manage to get past those two games.

Gerrard has nothing to play for this season now, it's as simple as that. He will take no pride in winning the FA Cup or the Europa League because he's been there, done that and probably thinks himself too good for those competitions. He wants the Premiership and Champions League, and to be honest always has.

Not buying that. Which player doesn't want to bring glory to the club? Yes he's been there done it but I'm sure he'll want to be there again, there's no doubt about it.

You're obviously contradicting yourself. He's also done it at the CL so why are you suggesting he wants the CL again, if he takes no pride in winning the FA Cup and Europa League? FFS, he's a professional player and we are a football club going for everything on offer.

It's like you're telling me if we have won EPL, we can sit back and quit winning it.

Every player will take the chance to have another shot at glory and Gerrard knows if he thinks like that he's been incredibly selfish and unfair to the other players to have not won it, the likes of Torres etc. We are the most successful club and we want to live up to that, doesn't mean that he has the medal round his neck his job is done for that competition.

What is fact is that our priorities is like that:
1. EPL
2. Europe
3. FA Cup
4. League Cup

What is not true is that he doesn't want to win it any longer.

We are the most successful club in England and if we think this way then we'll just settle for one at every competiton, which is a very sad day if that happens.

To be honest I think the notion of dropping Gerrard which most of you seem to agree with is ridiculous.

Why is nobody saying drop Lucas?

Word is that Stevie G is approaching another Stevie Me section of his career.  I would have no bones about us dropping Steven Gerrard the way he is playing.  Although my favoured option would be for him to be put on the right wing instead of Kuyt.

In any case, this thread was essentially about Rafa reaching a point where he needs to take some radical action - hence the title 'Shake it up'.

I'd love to say drop Steven, he's been sh*te, but against Spurs? We need our leader out there, no matter what form.

It takes one game for Steven Gerrard to be the best player in the world, he can't do it on the bench.

I realise it would send him a massive 'wake the F**k up, you tw*t' message, but i don't think we're in a position to do so.

Just my 2 cents on him. But Kuyt...i would engrave his name in the bench so he knows where to go.

I'd love to say drop Steven, he's been sh*te, but against Spurs? We need our leader out there, no matter what form.

It takes one game for Steven Gerrard to be the best player in the world, he can't do it on the bench.

I realise it would send him a massive 'wake the f**k up, you tw*t' message, but I don't think we're in a position to do so.

Just my 2 cents on him. But Kuyt...I would engrave his name in the bench so he knows where to go.

Agreed Crouchie and you can engrave Insua's name right next to it.

I'd love to slap Stevie right now and say wake the F**k up but to drop him from our team would leave just 2 stand outs. Torres and Reina. We'd really be fu**ed then.

I thought Rafa's intent was strong today, it was quite pleasing that he put out that side that showed what his intentions regarding this Cup is. His substitutions and his timing of them were questionable, though.

For the players to come out play as sh*t as they did, surely put's Rafa's head right back on the chopping block. He just can't win, can he?

The lot of those lads need to wake the F**k up and realize who they are playing for.

Word is that Stevie G is approaching another Stevie Me section of his career.  I would have no bones about us dropping Steven Gerrard the way he is playing.  Although my favoured option would be for him to be put on the right wing instead of Kuyt.

In any case, this thread was essentially about Rafa reaching a point where he needs to take some radical action - hence the title 'Shake it up'.

Well he's shown before that even when he is thinking about himself he can still be one of the best players in the world. The fact is we can all speculate about what's going on in his head but all we know for fact is that he is a born and bred Scouser and he's our captain. That's why I think we should be supporting him during this dip in form, not slating him.

I would agree with moving him out to the right though, primarily because we need Kuyt off the pitch as soon as possible.

I agree but I dont think we should drop gerrard for Spurs. Its a really important game and if rafa does it and we lose, people on here will be slating his decision. HOwever, Kuyt has to go

                                 Reina

Kelly         Carra                         Agger            Aurelio


Benayoun         Aquilani             Lucas              Babel


                                   Gerrard

                                    Torres

When have we ever seen Rafa "shake it up."

His idea of shaking it up is resting Kuyt for 70 minutes. Not gonna happen.

I agree but I dont think we should drop gerrard for Spurs. Its a really important game and if rafa does it and we lose, people on here will be slating his decision. HOwever, Kuyt has to go

                                 Reina

Kelly         Carra                         Agger            Aurelio


Benayoun         Aquilani             Lucas              Babel


                                   Gerrard

                                    Torres

Think Kelly will still be injured.

Plus I think it'd be more likely Aurelio started at left wing, however wrong or right that decision would be.

The sad thing is; Rafa probably believes he did "shake things up" by going 4 - 4 - 2 yesterday.

Unfortunately a 4 - 4 - 2 with Aurelio on the left to cover Insua and Kuyt on the right to cover Darby, (oh,and run about a lot), quickly became a 6 - 2 - 2.

I though Lucas was immense in the first half but when your "wide men" are either behind you (covering full backs) or along side you, it's difficult to be incisive. When every ball get's played back to where it came from, the 2 up front, very quickly, become isolated. One or both will drift deep looking for the ball or under pressure defenders will hoof the ball long.

If Rafa wants to "shake things up" with a 4 - 4 - 2 then the 2 "wide men" need to be set out with the sole intention to link with the front 2 and attack. The 2 full-backs, like the Reading boss, had to be thinking that Rafa mustn't trust them. By starting Aurelio and Kuyt we sacrificed mid-field and lost the mind game before a ball was kicked.

If you want to "shake things up" then go the whole hog - trust your defence, trust Lucas to offer cover and give the front 2 a fighting chance by starting players that will 'provide' service NOT cover.

Here endeth the rant!  

F***ing exactly.

Interesting that so far the 'Shake it up' thing has been confined to formation and tactics and who to leave out.


Does anybody think that the time has come for him to give a media bollocking to his team?

Interesting that so far the 'Shake it up' thing has been confined to formation and tactics and who to leave out.


Does anybody think that the time has come for him to give a media bollocking to his team?

If you mean Phil Brown style, no!

Not sure we'd know about it even if Rafa did bollock them. Not sure he's the type to criticise to the media.

Does anybody think that the time has come for him to give a media bollocking to his team?

Let's crawl before we can walk JD.  

If Rafa won't drop players that couldn't trap a sandbag or turn in the Albert Dock, it's going to be one hell of a leap to a public bollocking of them. A media warning followed by swift action might just work. On the other hand it could back-fire and he'll end up painting himself into a corner.

How about some attacking wingers eh Rafa?

Not F***ing Kuyt or Aurelio!

We only had three 'attacking' players against Reading in the Cup. Deary me.

Realistically If u drop Gerrard who starts ahead of him in the second striker role.. the choices are Kuyt,Ngog,Voronin etc There just is no reasonable cover to drop him. Plus if u want him to go to chelsea in the summer best thing to do is bench him mid season. If you want rafa to be sacked bench Gerrard for 3 games in a row. Either way it wont work im certain. He has been poor by his standards but what can we do. Right now 20% of stevie will win a game more so than 110% of other players in the team.sad but true.

I dont like the situation anymore than u guys but i think thats the realists view. I think we need a shake up/changes in the squad too but from whats available there just isnt enough decent cover. for example drop Kuyt on the right and play who.. everybody here hates Babel,El Zhar is even more erratic,Pacheco is one for the future but surely not ready to get 10-15 goals 10 assists a season..

I think gerrard is frustrated with everything about the club and it would appear his physical prowess is gradually starting to fade based on this seasons performances. I think we need more rotation in the squad but doing that now will make 4th extremely difficult. The changes id like are Gerrard back to midfield even on the right at least as hes gotten too spoiled/lazy up front imo Id like to see Babel/Ngog in there up front or out wide just for a burst of pace and power make the defense sit deeper. Id like to see Pacheco as the super sub on 63 mins to het him going. Id like Yossi up front with Torres it not working on the left for me. Id like to see Aurelio eased back into the left back role injuries permitting of course.

Cant see why we cant gradually make any of these changes.. Problem is every EPL game is a must win and even small changes make new problems for players playing together. Gonna drop Gerrard against spurs?? Dont envy Rafas position at the moment. Of untapped potential in the squad we need Babel/Ngog/Pacheco to take it to the next level. We also need Kuyt/gerrard to regain some form. All longshots based on this seasons form But we're lfc fans we shout and hope and make the best out of it.

Are we turning on Gerrard now?

Yesterday, Insua was subpar, Kuyt was dismal. This is not about Gerrard., This is more about proper team selection than Gerrard failing to bail us out.

Insua played for 90 minutes when he could have been taken off and Aurelio pushed back to make room for benny. Kuyt is a problem to the right wing as he has nothing to offer there. Babel does better on the right; We have Torres isolated from that right wing so much so he has to go to the right wing and try to pull crosses.

You want a shake-up? start with the manager shaking up some of his ideas of a starting 11. A starting 11 without Kuyt will be a good start.

Bu t Gerrard? leave that man alone.

Interesting that so far the 'Shake it up' thing has been confined to formation and tactics and who to leave out.


Does anybody think that the time has come for him to give a media bollocking to his team?

I would fookin love to hear him come out after a game and slam the performance and if need be slam individuals yes

^ Good post.

I also don't envy his position.  Probably wants to leave some of the 'names' out. But if he does and then we get beat then he's even worse off.

Maybe him delivering a 'media bollocking' was a bit strong.  But I certainly think he should be coming out after games and being a bit more blunt and telling the supporters that the performance was unacceptable and the players must improve.

Yesterday, Insua was subpar, Kuyt was dismal. This is not about Gerrard., This is more about proper team selection than Gerrard failing to bail us out.

It's not the fact he didn't bail us out. He just wasn't F***ing interested in the second half. He was just strolling around thinking he was all that and not contributed one bit. I know he isn't going to pop up with a winner every game but as club captain it is in his job description to set an example and to lead the team. Did he do that last night? Did he F**k.

I wouldn't drop him for Spurs because at the end of the day it takes one swing of his right foot to be the difference in the big games and next weekend is big. I'd certainly push him out wide right though, if he can't deliver in the centre then it's about time he puts in the graveyard shift.

And also, just because he is Steven Gerrard OBE (or whatever he is) doesn't mean I'm not going to critisise him. He should be the one leading us out of this rot but he's simply not doing it.

So Rafa, shake it up and have words with the skipper. Put him out right, Yossi on the left, Aquilani and Lucas in the middle and Torres and Ngog at the top. Let's go for it a bit because it sickens me to see us put out two defensive wingers most games.

I just wish Babel would start for Kuyt and have this breakout weve dreamed of 11million ago. Imagine the impact of him in top form weve never seen yet. The difference attacking wise would be immense. it gives me shivers thinking of us having a pacy dangerous winger to rock defences like Lennon for Spurs!! I can at least dream and hope that day will come..

Ps shaking it up.. where the F**k is Riera?? I get the feeling hes surplus to requirements cant we just sell him then and get Turan/Maxi/Silva??

Agree a shake up is needed but Rafa has to take a look at himself as well after all  its him that keeps selecting Insua and Kuyt.
Insua is awful at the moment and he keeps getting agame. We have 3 left backs at the club and the worst of them all is first choice.
Dont get me started on Kuyt, just because he works hard doesnt mean he should play.
That performance last night showed exactly where we are as a club at the moment, too many average players who dont give a toss.
Not sure what the answer is because we cant make 7 or 8 changes to the team. worrying times

Isn't Gerrard playing with injections before and after games at the mo?

Hasn't Gerrard scored two vital goals in our last three games?

Shake it up, drop the one player who can help drag us out the s.hit?

He is probably going through the motions now, with an eye on the WC but with that being said carrying the bulk of your team for the best part of 6 years must take its toll, no?

Can anyone honestly blame a man thats given everything to this club and to be let down but the dross around him. I hope personally he has a good WC, he isn't getting any younger and with our current state who can blame him for thinking about that (if he is thinking that).

Players don't become lazy overnight, take into consideration he may not be fully fit plus the fact the team has gone backwards and the fact that Benitez has never brought in someone, who, for when gerrard is off form (like now, even though he's scoring vital goals) can step up and grab the side by the scruff of the neck and drag them outta the s.hite. This Shows how far we really haven't come under Rafa, players like fans loose faith in their manager when they don't believe anymore and that reflects in their performances.

....with that being said carrying the bulk of your team for the best part of 6 years must take its toll, no?

Can anyone honestly blame a man thats given everything to this club and to be let down but the dross around him.

I agree with this part. Stevie's only human and can be forgiven, from time to time (like yesterday), for thinking "what's the F***ing point" - look at his options when he got the ball yesterday. Who could he actually trust to do anything with the ball? Aurelio? Kuyt? .... "Gimme a break" As quick as a ball get's to Kuyt it comes back and Stevie's back to square one and, be honest, Aurelio was so far behind play there was no point even looking for him.

Yeah Stevie's out of sorts but i believe it's more down to the mediocrity that is allowed to thrive around him than his skill as a footballer. If we want to see him play to his best then play proper footballers along side him. Players he can play the ball to and move in front of for a return ball.

We should understand his frustration and needs.

I agree with this part. Stevie's only human and can be forgiven, from time to time (like yesterday), for thinking "what's the f**king point" - look at his options when he got the ball yesterday. Who could he actually trust to do anything with the ball? Aurelio? Kuyt? .... "Gimme a break" As quick as a ball get's to Kuyt it comes back and Stevie's back to square one and, be honest, Aurelio was so far behind play there was no point even looking for him.

Yeah Stevie's out of sorts but I believe it's more down to the mediocrity that is allowed to thrive around him than his skill as a footballer. If we want to see him play to his best then play proper footballers along side him. Players he can play the ball to and move in front of for a return ball.

We should understand his frustration and needs.

Exactly

I agree entirely with what people have been saying about the wingers not attacking.

Look Real Madrid for example - they use two holding midfielders yet their wingers are extremely attacking ones. All the time. Kaka/Ronaldo/Granero you name it.

I think we're really missing Riera actually.

Not buying that. Which player doesn't want to bring glory to the club? Yes he's been there done it but I'm sure he'll want to be there again, there's no doubt about it.

You're obviously contradicting yourself. He's also done it at the CL so why are you suggesting he wants the CL again, if he takes no pride in winning the FA Cup and Europa League? FFS, he's a professional player and we are a football club going for everything on offer.

It's like you're telling me if we have won EPL, we can sit back and quit winning it.

Every player will take the chance to have another shot at glory and Gerrard knows if he thinks like that he's been incredibly selfish and unfair to the other players to have not won it, the likes of Torres etc. We are the most successful club and we want to live up to that, doesn't mean that he has the medal round his neck his job is done for that competition.

What is fact is that our priorities is like that:
1. EPL
2. Europe
3. FA Cup
4. League Cup

What is not true is that he doesn't want to win it any longer.

We are the most successful club in England and if we think this way then we'll just settle for one at every competiton, which is a very sad day if that happens.

Quite simply because the Champions League is the biggest competition in modern day football, every single player would love to play in it and win it. That's why so many players say "I've moved to such and such a club to play in the Champions League". But players of Gerrard's ability do not take pride in winning the FA Cup or Europa League anymore - which is what I quite blatantly said.

He certainly feels himself too important for the early rounds. A few years back when he scored against Luton he didn't even celebrate.

So you think just because he's a professional footballer, he's gonna try his hardest every single game? He isn't. He's sulking because he isn't gonna win the League or European Cup. Did you see the difference in his reaction to his goals to Wolves and Reading? He no longer takes pride in the early rounds of these "lesser" competitions. He's not alone in that mind you, a lot of our players feel their too good for a third round tie in the FA Cup. And as a football club we may be striving to win everything, that doesn't mean the players are.

And no there's no contradiction at all if you took the time to read it properly. I said he feels himself too good for those competitions, he doesn't for the Champions League because of it's prestige in modern day football. The same applies to the Premiership. The FA Cup is nowhere near as big as it was because of the money that the Champions League no provides. It's more important for clubs, and players, to be in the Champions League.

There's a lot of posts wanting more rotation but I feel we've rotated into outspace

Who can honestly say they turn up to a match & can predict with any confidence, who our back 4 will be, who our midfield will be & who will be supporting Torres (even without the injuries)?

IMO all of our players lack confidence, not just Stevie. I don't know whether that's confidence in themselves, in the tactics, in the manager or something else but they've not shown any since the start of the season

I don't know what Rafa or anyone else did in the lead up to man ure coming to town but I'd like them to do it again

We came out of the traps & attacked them in every sense of the word. We went for 50/50 balls we even went for balls we had no right to win

If we play like that & lose so be it I for one won't complain. If we play like that & win I'll be on such a bender I won't have time to say anything

The other thing I'd like (which is in our hands) is to hear the red wall of noise from whistle to whistle which has been missing from Anfield on to many occasions this season. When you walk through a storm don't just hold your head up high but sing with everything you've got

I know what you're saying mate.

I do think we're far too conservative most of the time.

We have the quality of players to be raping teams.

Football is risks. Risks we need to take more of. If it means losing more games, so be it, because at the same time I'm damn sure we'd win more.

Against Spurs, this looks better


                                    Reina

Degen         Carra                         Agger            Aurelio


Babel         Gerrard             Lucas              Benayoun


                                   Kuyt

                                    Torres

Against Spurs, this looks better


                                    Reina

Degen         Carra                         Agger            Aurelio


Babel         Gerrard             Lucas              Benayoun


                                   Kuyt

                                    Torres

Like it but wud prefer Yossi off Torres, Gerrard left and aquilani in the middle with Lucas. Even more attacking imo

With all the criticism of Kuyt, let us not forget that he made a major contribution to the goal v Reading.  It wasn't just Gerrard, and had Kuyt not made that run, the keeper would have saved it.

I would never ever criticise Stevie G as he has given everything for years and years and is everything that is great about our club,how many sub standard players has he played with over the last 10 years even making some of them look good!he would never ever not try,i think watching him now does Rafa really know his best position come to think of it does Rafa really know his best 11,everyone i know have said over the past few years we need width/wingers and we need a partner for Torres neither have been properly addressed and we have become predictable and boring,looking at the starting 11 on saturday in my opinion only Reina,Carragher,Gerrard and Torres are good enough to play for Liverpool football club all the others would struggle to get into Stoke City's side.

I hope everyone realises that this team contains eleven players. Of course Gerrard is not beyond reproach by any stretch of the imagination, but his 'laboured' approach is a culmination of many problems. The personal ones, I know nothing about, if indeed there are any, but the on field problems are there for all to see. As Steven retains legendary status among the fans, we are always expecting him to pull us out of the sh*t. He's been doing it for years, but guess what?, he's f**king human, just like the rest of us. And the fact that we are so heavily reliant on Steven and Fernando just lends weight to the 'Liverpool are a 2 man team' argument.

I think it just goes to show how inferior our squad has been over the last few years. How many players in our squad have the ability to win a game by themselves? Torres and Gerrard, and that's it. One of the main problems has been the lack of service to Torres and Gerrard from central midfield and the fact that Gerrard has to come back looking for the ball instead of being fed the ball. Anyway, back to the topic in hand.

Rafa has to do a couple of things to try and get this season back on track. The first is to stop being so f**king 'stubborn'!. His constant persistence with Insua, Kuyt and Lucas is destroying us. Insua is having too much being asked of him this season and it's starting to tell. If Aurelio is fit enough to start a game then why the f**k is he starting him on the left wing? It baffles the f**k out of me, it really does. Was Aurelio not the left back for us last season? The season when our defence was the cornerstone of our late challenge for the title? Insua needs to lay off the pasties and get in the gym.

Then there's Dirk Kuyt. Is he Rafa's secret f**king lovechild or something? Has had a shocking season so far. Looks a very troubled man, his confidence has evaporated into thin air. It's not like we don't have any other wingers here, would love to see Pacheco get a run of games and give Kuyt a chance to recuperate. I feel sorry for Dirk, when he signed for us I bet the last thought that crossed his mind was that Rafa would try and convert him into a right winger. I use the word try as Kuyt is a long way off being classed as a winger.

Then there's Lucas Leiva, 23 years old next week, the 'Marmite Man' and the only player on the forum with a 'Development Thread'. The only reason Lucas is playing consistently is due to Rafa's safety first policy. I have loved looking at the posts showing Lucas as being one of the most accurate passers in the Premiership this season, has given me a good laugh. If you were to take away the passes that Lucas made immediately back to the defence and the sideways 5 yarders to Masch, Kuyt and Yossi, then that would account for at least 65% of those passes. On occasion it has entered my mind that he has the DNA profile of a crab. This is where the stats fail to tell the truth.

Many posters have mentioned Rafa's 'over defensive' approach this season, and I have to agree that this system is zapping the players confidence, that's all the players, not just Lucas. The Insua-Aurelio, Johnson-Kuyt and Mascherano-Lucas combinations are living proof of this problem. This defensive attitude will destroy any chance we have of winning anything this season.This, and his blunt refusal to place his trust in the youngsters and the 'Academy'. The same Academy that he claims is so important to the club, the same Academy that he has only just recently re-vamped by the way. In a way this can be perceived as being 'hypocritical' on Rafa's part.

I watched a programme the other night about American Football and this particular programme focussed on the 1976 Oakland Raiders. What interested me most about the programme was something the head coach said about his players. He was reminiscing about that great team and when asked why the team were so great at the time he said this, "When I brought in these players I had to accept that these players were 'artists', and artists have to be allowed to 'express themselves', if I inhibited their ability to express themselves then I would effectively have a team of 'robots' ". A great speech I thought it was and so very very true.

If you want a right winger, buy a right winger. Don't buy a striker and convert him into a winger. If you believe the kids are the future of Liverpool Football Club, then let them have the chance to express themselves. The general consensus on the forum is that Lucas is a 'creative' midfielder, well I beg to differ. If this is true then why is Rafa moulding him as a defensive midfielder? Is he moulding Lucas as a direct replacement for Masch?, as he feels confident that Aquilani can fill the 'Alonso' role. If he trusts Insua at left back why does he play Aurelio ahead of him. If he trusts Johnson then why does he play an out of form Kuyt ahead of him? This in turn leads to a lack of crosses from the wingers as they are preoccupied with babysitting the full backs.

Rafa's mindset is more a case of ' we must not lose ', rather than ' we must win '.

This has to change, and very soon.

Rafa's mindset is more a case of ' we must not lose ', rather than ' we must win '.

I'd certainly agree with you there.

Brilliant post.

Rafa has always had that mindset apart from the latter end of last season when he went for broke even though it was to little to late.

Rafa has always had that mindset apart from the latter end of last season when he went for broke even though it was to little to late.

Yes he has, but when we had Aurelio and Arbeloa as full backs, the wingers were able to play as wingers, not winger/defenders. My point being that our full backs now are liabilities.

Yes he has, but when we had Aurelio and Arbeloa as full backs, the wingers were able to play as wingers, not winger/defenders. My point being that our full backs now are liabilities.

Do you not think though mate that the full backs are struggling because of the "defensive" wide men. I mean if you know that the manager is playing somebody to protect you, it must add pressure knowing you're not trusted on your todd rather than relieve it.

For me Insua's best game this year was only the other week against Villa when he had Yossi playing ahead of him. I don't feel Aurelio offers any great cover anyway because for me he's not that great a defender. He, like Insua, struggles against quicker wingers. I've never been convinced by Aurelio at left back and would prefer Insua to remain there.

On the right, well for all the money in the world it's gonna stay the same when the squad is fit. Johnson right back, Kuyt right wing. It's basically as simple that. I'm not overly convinced with either but that's the way it's gonna stay. No matter how badly we feel one or the other is doing, if both are fit then 99 times out 100 that's the pairing down the right.

My ideal option though would be Gerrard on the right for a few weeks. Even though his season has been a shambles by his standards and I wouldn't cry meself to sleep if he was dropped to the bench for a few games, if he's gonna play (which is almost a certainty) I'd like to see him on the right wing. He can still be as destructive as anybody out there and because he'd be reluctant to stay in one position it would drag defenders around a lot more than he's currently doing.

I hear what you say DLS but Aurelio would be my first choice left back everytime. Insua has been a liability this season. My opinion is that Aurelio is the better defender at the moment. I use the words 'at the moment' or as Lawro would say, "At the muurment", because i believe that Insua will become a better defender than Aurelio in time. And i stick by my assessment of Johnson too, as a defender he is seriously lacking, his only saving grace is his exceptional offensive prowess. When your full back is spending more time attacking the flanks than your winger then you know you've got problems. Maybe we should swap Aurelio and Kuyt with Insua and Johnson seeing as they are offering more of an attacking threat this season?

i thought yesterday would be good for Aquilani to start......also thought Pacheco may get a run out........
cant understand what is up with everyone at present, great result at Villa followed by that rubbish.  Agree that Insua looks awful at present along with Kuyt and Aurelio.  I'm getting sick of all our defenders trying to wrestle the opposition to the floor, WTF do they teach them on the training ground?

If he trusts Insua at left back why does he play Aurelio ahead of him. If he trusts Johnson then why does he play an out of form Kuyt ahead of him? This in turn leads to a lack of crosses from the wingers as they are preoccupied with babysitting the full backs.

Rafa's mindset is more a case of ' we must not lose ', rather than ' we must win '.

This has to change, and very soon.

Do you not think though mate that the full backs are struggling because of the "defensive" wide men. I mean if you know that the manager is playing somebody to protect you, it must add pressure knowing you're not trusted on your todd rather than relieve it.

^^^ Nail on head lads; in my opinion anyhow. At a time when confidence is at a low, no opportunity should be missed to boost self-belief and fear should be removed, not instilled........ Nice to see someone's reading my posts, by the way.

The 2 full-backs, like the Reading boss, had to be thinking that Rafa mustn't trust them. By starting Aurelio and Kuyt we sacrificed mid-field and lost the mind game before a ball was kicked.

He'll be getting his start, not because of re-found form or attacking prowess but because of his work ethic and the defensive cover he offers. It, automatically, sends out a message of intent that we fear losing more than we want to win.

There is a fear in the team. Players dont switch position like they used to at the end of last year.
4-2-3-1 worked well with Yossi Kuyt Torres moving around.
Now there is a fear of failure the structure has become rigid and predictable
Mata and Maxi please

It is interesting that after United's defeat, Ferguson has read the riot act to his players. Warning some of them will be dropped for the Carling Cup clash.

Complete opposite to the way Rafa operates.

I'm not suggesting one way is better than the other - I just thought it was interesting considering this topic.

It is interesting that after United's defeat, Ferguson has read the riot act to his players. Warning some of them will be dropped for the Carling Cup clash.

Complete opposite to the way Rafa operates.

I'm not suggesting one way is better than the other - I just thought it was interesting considering this topic.

Yeah mate Anderon will be dropped for Fletcher. Brown for Ferdinand. Fabio for Evra. Neville for O'Shea. (Providing they're all fit) Can't see it being Rooney for that Italian nobody has heard of since their game against Villa last season.

Yeah mate Anderon will be dropped for Fletcher. Brown for Ferdinand. Fabio for Evra. Neville for O'Shea. (Providing they're all fit) Can't see it being Rooney for that Italian nobody has heard of since their game against Villa last season.

  Brilliant and true.

The sad thing is; Rafa probably believes he did "shake things up" by going 4 - 4 - 2 yesterday.

Unfortunately a 4 - 4 - 2 with Aurelio on the left to cover Insua and Kuyt on the right to cover Darby, (oh,and run about a lot), quickly became a 6 - 2 - 2.

I though Lucas was immense in the first half but when your "wide men" are either behind you (covering full backs) or along side you, it's difficult to be incisive. When every ball get's played back to where it came from, the 2 up front, very quickly, become isolated. One or both will drift deep looking for the ball or under pressure defenders will hoof the ball long.

If Rafa wants to "shake things up" with a 4 - 4 - 2 then the 2 "wide men" need to be set out with the sole intention to link with the front 2 and attack. The 2 full-backs, like the Reading boss, had to be thinking that Rafa mustn't trust them. By starting Aurelio and Kuyt we sacrificed mid-field and lost the mind game before a ball was kicked.

If you want to "shake things up" then go the whole hog - trust your defence, trust Lucas to offer cover and give the front 2 a fighting chance by starting players that will 'provide' service NOT cover.

Here endeth the rant! 

What an excellent analysis. Spot on in my opinion. Without trust there is nothing. The term 'isolated' is the best word i have read recently to describe our season, fits perfectly.

The lineup against Reading reminded me an awful lot of Englands cricket selections. Put in a bits and peices lineup, if the batsman fail, then we have bit part bowlers who can bat a bit.

Have faith in each and every player, they are playing for Liverpool, and were against Reading. If Insua needed protection from Aurelio against Reading then that is a huge issue. As for Kuyt he is neither attacking nor defending anymore, merely playing side to side and passing simple.

Yes he has, but when we had Aurelio and Arbeloa as full backs, the wingers were able to play as wingers, not winger/defenders. My point being that our full backs now are liabilities.

Couldnt have said it better. I think we've all forgotten that the modern day 'wingback' was a policy only used by extremely talented attack minded teams who employed world class players to use the system right. It was players like Cafu and Roberto Carlos who basically invented this style of attacking right/left back in the modern game before them jarzinho and the likes. This system was never meant to be used by average players to replace slow wingers who cant attack. Glen Johnson is gud enough to be a wingback however insua is not. the wingback was always lightning quick with an engine to go up and down all day. The centre halfs picked up the slack of his attacking play not the wingers.

The whole point of the wingback was to increase attacking play not compensate for this attacking play using a defensive winger?!? That belittles the whole point of the system used masterfully by european greats like ac milan/Real madrid.. I even remember our own rob jones/riise and finnan being half decent too at our own interpretation. Probably only Cole/Evra and clichy are gud enough in the Pl to use the system properly in the left back position. Even those teams have traditional players like Ivanovic and Oshea who basically just defend and attack sparingly playing within their limits. We need to get a balance of reality with ability. We had arbeloa who was an amazing underrated right back but now with Johnson and Insua the balance is wrong. Johnson with Maxi ahead of him also sounds a lot better. Also one centre back with pace wouldnt go astray to cover this attacking play cos maybe thats why we use 2 holding players to cover their lack of pace.

It seems the whole team is full of players whose only role is to cover the inadequacies of the others. Probably only Stevie,nando,yossi and Reina can be relied upon to just do their own thing not spend their time covering our weaknesses.

SHAKE IT UP RAFA!!

if liverpool f.c was run like a buisness then at least half the team would be fired. at the moment it appears to be a soacil club. the same results week in week out when is rafa going to shake things up?.

.........I think we've all forgotten that the modern day 'wingback' was a policy only used by extremely talented attack minded teams who employed world class players to use the system right. It was players like Cafu and Roberto Carlos who basically invented this style of attacking right/left back in the modern game before them jarzinho and the likes. This system was never meant to be used by average players to replace slow wingers who cant attack. Glen Johnson is gud enough to be a wingback however insua is not. the wingback was always lightning quick with an engine to go up and down all day. The centre halfs picked up the slack of his attacking play not the wingers.

The whole point of the wingback was to increase attacking play not compensate for this attacking play using a defensive winger?!? That belittles the whole point of the system used masterfully by european greats like ac milan/Real madrid.. I even remember our own rob jones/riise and finnan being half decent too at our own interpretation. Probably only Cole/Evra and clichy are gud enough in the Pl to use the system properly in the left back position. Even those teams have traditional players like Ivanovic and Oshea who basically just defend and attack sparingly playing within their limits. We need to get a balance of reality with ability. We had arbeloa who was an amazing underrated right back but now with Johnson and Insua the balance is wrong. Johnson with Maxi ahead of him also sounds a lot better. Also one centre back with pace wouldnt go astray to cover this attacking play cos maybe thats why we use 2 holding players to cover their lack of pace.

It seems the whole team is full of players whose only role is to cover the inadequacies of the others. Probably only Stevie,nando,yossi and Reina can be relied upon to just do their own thing not spend their time covering our weaknesses.

SHAKE IT UP RAFA!!

I think this is a very astute analysis of the current set-up to be honest.

If we take this and throw "lack of confidence" into the equation perhaps we're getting somewhere. Could it be that the "lack of confidence" issues are being perpetuated (unwittingly) by team selections that lead players to question their role and the gaffer's faith in them?

If true, it is a Catch 22 scenario, no doubt. Again, if true, the only escape from the cycle is a radical shake up. Two full backs who's sole responsibility is to defend; a midfield four that includes our (in my opinion) best ball players, Gerrard, Aquilani and Yossi and a front two of Nando with N'gog or Pacheco: maybe?

Gerrard off Torres isnt working and neither is kuyt on the right, both have been found out this season and with our left sided options limited we are far too predictable.

Steven centre mid with Masch, Dirk up top off Nando, Yossi or even if the transfer goes ahead Maxi on the right.

Left side...maybe a fit Reira or if he's staying...maybe try Babel again (argh....cant believe I just said that) but Aurelio should be left back for me, not left midfield.

Gerrard off Torres isnt working and neither is kuyt on the right, both have been found out this season and with our left sided options limited we are far too predictable.

Steven centre mid with Masch, Dirk up top off Nando, Yossi or even if the transfer goes ahead Maxi on the right.

Left side...maybe a fit Reira or if he's staying...maybe try Babel again (argh....cant believe I just said that) but Aurelio should be left back for me, not left midfield.

Exactly.

Can't argue with much posted lately on here.I think we all are of one mindon the subject. Hopefully the aqiusition of Maxi and either Chamakh or preferably Ardur Turan will give the team a more attacking bias,because that's when we are at our best imo.

rafa the man and he should do whats best
for the team
but he is not and thats his fault
its his fault liverpool are doing so poorly
its his fault the team is not motivited
its his fault we got knocked out the cl
and he should get his head out of his arse and get the team in to frame of mind to win
 comon u redmen  get it going

rafa the man and he should do whats best
for the team
but he is not and thats his fault
its his fault liverpool are doing so poorly
its his fault the team is not motivited
its his fault we got knocked out the cl
and he should get his head out of his arse and get the team in to frame of mind to win
 comon u redmen  get it going

There's much more too blame than just Rafa, The Jokers that are our owners with their minimum of investment, the players who have failed to live up to their professional status, the injury situation.  Some blame lies with Rafa, a far bigger percentage lay elsewhere.

but rafas the manager m8
he picks the team ,not the owners
yes we have had injuries
but rafa brought the players in
and lets face it they have not been the best buys
but its not just about the buys he got its his tactics aswell
torres up by himself dont work
me think he should go back to 442
and i think lots more ppl think the same
i do agree the yanks need to go
but rafa needs to change his tactics as well

but rafas the manager m8
he picks the team ,not the owners
yes we have had injuries
but rafa brought the players in
and lets face it they have not been the best buys
but its not just about the buys he got its his tactics aswell
torres up by himself dont work
me think he should go back to 442
and I think lots more ppl think the same
I do agree the yanks need to go
but rafa needs to change his tactics as well

Have to agree with that part. But on the other hand, 17 goals last season says otherwise. The reason Torres up top ain't working is our defence minded central midfield pairing, they are killing us slowly. Hopefully Aquilani will be a more regular choice for the second half of the season, therefore eliminating the need for the 4-4-2.

There's only one way for Rafa to relieve the pressure on himself this weekend.

















Do it gaffer.

There's only one way for Rafa to relieve the pressure on himself this weekend.

Do it gaffer.

Die his hair blond and belt out an Eminem Gangsta rap song on the touchline and really control tha tempo no