Should I expect less from Liverpool?

I read a post in which the author suggests we are on a level with Spurs and Villa and not really a club to consider winning titles.

I never, even in the Souness years, considered Liverpool anything other then the top club bar none and expected every season to be the ones to lift the title. I suppose I'm lucky with my age that I witnessed so much success and so many great players pass through the club that I have no reason to doubt at the start of every season that it would end in glory.

Has the time come for me to lower those expectations? New super rich clubs added to our poverty means its going to be harder then ever to land titles. Am I rating our current status to high based on whats gone before? Or am I right to expect Liverpool football club to always be there or thereabouts when the trophies are handed out.  Nothing changes with respect to how I will ever feel for the club no matter what lies ahead but I would find it saddening to begin every year with little or no belief that this (winning the league) will be a possibility.  

The facts are:
1. We don't have money - at least this is what we believe anyway
2. We have a team that doesn't seem to understand how to win against the relegation battlers. They can win against Manutd but this is only when they run and tackle like crazy, full of adrenalin.
3. We don't play good football, it's heartbreaking when you see Liverpool do not know how to attack, no imagination no creativity what-so-ever.

Personally I have lowered my expectation of the team a lot.
I'm guarding myself not to be heartbroken too deep. It's not good for my health.
In all seriousness, we never fight for the title, except in 2006 if I remember correctly. Not even last year, once Manutd came back from Japan and started to run, we could not keep up until they slowed down at the end of the season.

In a way yes, its obvious when you look at the FACTS. But only terms of league. We have not won it for 20 years now.

So why should we expect to win it.?

But we are a top 4 team, we are still the most succesfull team in England. We can compete for leagues, and we can win everything else which we have done under GH & Rafa.

We are a lot better off going into the next decade than we were going into the last one.

Im sure we will win the league again, when is the only question.

The owners have a big spring\summer this year, if they break more promises it will look a lot worse.

1. We don't have money - at least this is what we believe anyway
2. We have a team that doesn't seem to understand how to win against the relegation battlers. They can win against Manutd but this is only when they run and tackle like crazy, full of adrenalin.
3. We don't play good football, it's heartbreaking when you see Liverpool do not know how to attack, no imagination no creativity what-so-ever.

1. Torres, Gerrard - 100k a week.
2. We have a team that can beat anyone, but the manager doesn't know how to line-up players against weak teams
3. We used to play exciting football.. we played better stuff than arsenal last season. But the manager sold his best player and trusts men who symbolizes average-ness such as Lucas and Kuyt.

Great post Brian
I was about to post "are we underachievers or overacheivers?" but this sums up what i wanted to say.

I've always expected us to be atleast top 2 in the table and winning atleast 1 cup every season. But why should we have that sort of success if there are easily 4 other clubs with more to spend than us?

Why don't pundits ever mention this? Because they might have to admit that we're actually doing well for the little money we have.
In the last 5 seasons (before this one) we've won the champions league, been to another final, a semi and a quarter. We've won the FA cup, been to a league cup final, but hardest of all, we've been succesfully playing champions league football every season, and having to qualify for it in the toughest, most expensive league in the world of football. Not to mention that we should have won that league last season, and this season having spent no money and having a crappy crappy start to the league, we're still only 3 points off a 4th place team who have been playing exceptionally well by their standards.

To answer your question Brian, I think you and everyone shouldn't expect more from Liverpool.... if that does answer it  

I think that was my post wasn't it brian

Look, the fact of the matter is, never lower overall expectations. I always EXPECT this club to get back to its glory days and in the bigger picture thats what i want and expect.

BUT

At the moment we simply cannot compete financially with our rivals for the title, our squad is thin in comparison, and thus i feel you are only setting yourself up for hurt if you realistically feel the title is in reach. Thats how i see it. Not saying you should ever lower your long term expectation, or how you feel for the club as a whole. But at the moment, we simply cannot realistically think of the title any time soon.

I think that was my post wasn't it brian

Possibily mate. Really got me thinking when I seen it in black and white "on a par with Spurs and Villa" To me always 2 good clubs who might have good cup runs but never think of them as title winners. So to think thats where we are now is scary.

We have not realistically spent any money this money this season.

We have actually made a transfer profit of 4 million this season taking into account Dossena and Voronins moves.

4 million "Profit" no real money spent...yup time to lower our expectations, you don't win the EPL without investment.

Show me a manager who has.

Alex Ferguson ?
Kenny Dalglish ?
Arsene Wenger ?
Jose Mourhino ?

I can smell the coffee, can you ?

Possibily mate. Really got me thinking when I seen it in black and white "on a par with Spurs and Villa" To me always 2 good clubs who might have good cup runs but never think of them as title winners. So to think thats where we are now is scary.

It is a scary thought, but i console myself with this -  we may be on par financially with them, and thus at the moment we will be fighting for similar spots it seems.. but we will always, ALWAYS, be more prestigious than them. Our history is simply unmatchable by any of the clubs around us at the moment. And although all that may be is record books to some, to fans that is our life. And more importantly, that will always see us as a more attractive business option to those who may seek buy us.

Although it doesn't look good at the moment, as the anthem says, at the end of the storm theres a golden sky. And i truly believe that

I share your sentiments Brian. Over the period 1991-2007, in general we were pretty average. 

However, during that time I had belief that the board had a passionate desire, like the fans, for us to return to greatness.  We always seemed to have some money and every transfer window you had faith that the board would support the manager wherever possible. 

Nowadays I feel like the only people who crave success are at Melwood and I have no faith in the board.  They have shown over the course of the past 4 transfer windows that their priority is this enormous debt burden that THEY have placed on us.

Hicks and Gillett clearly do not understand the game - they have alienated supporters and caused a great sense of malaise amongst the fans.

Villa and Spurs have even enormously out-spent us in the last two years and their board seems to show real ambition to make them a top four club - obviously alongside Man City.

I'm under the belief that no manager in the world could make us Champions on a zero budget.  In the future, as long as the club is crippled by debts, I would expect Champions League involvement to be as rare an event as it was in the 15 years before Benitez arrived at Anfield.

We have not realistically spent any money this money this season.

We have actually made a transfer profit of 4 million this season taking into account Dossena and Voronins moves.

4 million "Profit" no real money spent...yup time to lower our expectations, you don't win the EPL without investment.

Show me a manager who has.

Alex Ferguson ?
Kenny Dalglish ?
Arsene Wenger ?
Jose Mourhino ?

I can smell the coffee, can you ?

I know but it doesnt make it easier to say to yourself we wont be title contenders next year. Liverpool should not be just another club making up the numbers in the league

Think RedLFCBlood had that post directed at sivapc, not you Brian

I'm under the belief that no manager in the world could make us Champions on a zero budget.  In the future, as long as the club is crippled by debts, I would expect Champions League involvement to be as rare an event as it was in the 15 years before Benitez arrived at Anfield.

This paragraph has trebled the depression I was feeling starting this thread

I know but it doesnt make it easier to say to yourself we wont be title contenders next year. Liverpool should not be just another club making up the numbers in the league

I don't like saying it myself but thats the realism of the situation, however given a fully fit squad, a bit of luck and 1 or 2 quality additions over the summer, given we can keep the majority of the squad and the manager together, I still think we'll have enough in our tank to be competitive,  Yes lack of investment has been detrimental, but I'd say Injuries have had a fare more damning impact on our season...you could argue if we had better investment that could have outweighed the injuries and rightly so, however had we had better luck with injuries we may not have been having this debate as on paper we do have strong Starting XI.


YANKS OUT SIMPLES..............

I share your sentiments Brian. Over the period 1991-2007, in general we were pretty average.  

However, during that time I had belief that the board had a passionate desire, like the fans, for us to return to greatness.  We always seemed to have some money and every transfer window you had faith that the board would support the manager wherever possible.  

Nowadays I feel like the only people who crave success are at Melwood and I have no faith in the board.  They have shown over the course of the past 4 transfer windows that their priority is this enormous debt burden that THEY have placed on us.

Hicks and Gillett clearly do not understand the game - they have alienated supporters and caused a great sense of malaise amongst the fans.

Villa and Spurs have even enormously out-spent us in the last two years and their board seems to show real ambition to make them a top four club - obviously alongside Man City.

I'm under the belief that no manager in the world could make us Champions on a zero budget.  In the future, as long as the club is crippled by debts, I would expect Champions League involvement to be as rare an event as it was in the 15 years before Benitez arrived at Anfield.

Excellent post buddy. Sums up for me what, deep down, i've been feeling for a couple of seasons. Like yourself i've often said that last Summer was the time to push on and to sign players who would make a difference.

The fact that we couldn't or wouldn't, due to debt management, gave a very clear indication, to anyone with half a brain, that football ambition is non-existent at owner & board level.

Sadly, there has to be an acceptance that this is where we are at until changes are made at a non-footballing level.  

I still can't get my head around why the huge contrast from last season?
We've sold xabi and arbeloa, replaced them with johnson and aquilani.
Did xabi really have such an amazing impact on our title challenge last season?
Or is it all down to injuries and bad luck this season?
Or will luck balance out and we might finish 3rd or 2nd?
I can't think about it anymore, it does my head in!

I still can't get my head around why the huge contrast from last season?
We've sold xabi and arbeloa, replaced them with johnson and aquilani.
Did xabi really have such an amazing impact on our title challenge last season?
Or is it all down to injuries and bad luck this season?
Or will luck balance out and we might finish 3rd or 2nd?
I can't think about it anymore, it does my head in!

As much of a loss as those 2 has been hyypia mate. A big reason we have leaked so many goals is 2 top defenders leaving, and a brilliant right back coming in, and a solid defender coming in. But thye have taken time to settle, or have been Injured.

Simples.

Like you Brian I am fortunate to have experienced the greatness of this Club since the early 70's, where expectations were high every season.  My expectations were lowered during the Souness/Houllier years and it became very depressing watching our once great Club reduced to playing 2nd/3rd/4th fiddle to other teams.  Yes we were winning trophies during this period but not the main one and we didn't look like winning it either.

My enthusiasm was lifted by the arrival of Rafa and once again I believed that we were heading back to the top (EPL title) especially after Istanbul.  However with our current owners I honestly can't see us competing with the majority of other teams in the league, either financially or on the pitch.

It still amuses me to read some posts that think we should be looking to bring in players like Mata, Silva, Villa, Aguero or replace Rafa with Mourhinio, Hiddink etc as we just don't have the money and like it or not we have to get used to the fact that we are looking and playing more like a mid table team.  In fact while watching the Wolves game when my fella asked how we were doing my reply was we're playing like a very bad Championship team.

This season so far has highlighted how lightweight we are as a squad but the worst for me is the fact that we don't seem to be playing as a team anymore.  I hate to say it but I'm beginning to think maybe we do need to lower our expectations.  Maybe if Rafa does go in the summer as is looking more and more likely, we should be looking at a Manager who is used to working with very little money, with not many star players but who is able to get the best out of an average squad.

It's heartbreaking for me to say any of this but as things stand Liverpool's days as a top 4, competitive team are almost over.  

We should expect less till we get rid of the owners  and as long as they remain, the horror of what happened at Leeds always exists as a worst case scenario in the back round.

I started watching serious football in 2005 when Rafa arrived and so I can't compare the current tenure with our glorious years but ever since I started supporting Liverpool I have expected nothing less than being the best.However with each passing year I was left to face the agony of seeing us out of the title race long before the season was over but after introspection I would realise that we cannot compete with Chelsea and ManU for the title with our limited financial resources and would eagerly start waiting for the next season to start.Last season though everything changed,we were back in the running for the title and it wasn't a surprise for me at all becasue I knew season after season Rafa was putting together the pieces of the puzzle together and was getting us back to our righteous position in English football.So as expected I believed this was going to be "the year" for us but as it is unfolding we are in the middle of one of our worst seasons.
                        So after this terrible setback should I lower my expectations and forget about attaining the high standards I like to see my beloved club achieve.HELL NO!We will be back next season and would win the title and its not just blind faith,I can very well give my reasons.

a)We were never really able to replace Xabi this season and that is a major reason for our poor performances but by the start of next season Aquilani would turn out be much more effective for us than Xabi ever was.
b)It can't be guaranteed but I don't think we will again face the same horror show of injuries that have hampered us this season.
c)We will get one more quality addition to the squad be it a winger or a striker.
d)Rafa will hopefully lose some of his stubbornness and after two years in a row of tame performances against the smaller clubs would finally succeed in cracking the artless code of how to beat them.
 
WE WILL BE BACK!!!

Maybe, we should lower our expectations. As long as the yanks are our owners, we will get no investment and hence better player's will go elsewhere.
Having said that apart from Chelsea and Man Sh**ty everyone else is as hampered financially as we are. So i think that a more level playing field will emerge over the next few years, and when Abramovich and the arab's get bored of their little playthings then they will sink like a stone anyway.
All this doesnt exempt players who earn enormous sums of money -each week- that i can only dream of playing like a bunch of tw*ts, s maybe who knows with a little less pressure and a little more luck with injuries, and  more passion then we can start the fightback and maybe next season we can write the horror of this one off
After securing atop four spot and winning the Europa League of course

I agree with you corballyred, regarding the demise of the club on the whole, due to the current owners. I would add however, we do have a squad to challenge the best as we have proved already this season. BUT. Yes we should expect less, as long as we field negative defensive lineups against mediocre teams when what is needed is a bit of belief and confidence in your attacking players to go out and put the oposition under pressure instead of sitting back and hopeing for the chance of a counter attack. The negative strategy has caused us to become similar to the teams we ridicule for being negative.  Mid table mediocrity is where we are heading and you can't blame it all on the fact that Torres is injured. I'm afraid the problems lie much deeper than that.

The negative strategy has caused us to become similar to the teams we ridicule for being negative.  Mid table mediocrity is where we are heading and you can't blame it all on the fact that Torres is injured. I'm afraid the problems lie much deeper than that.

It is a pity that not many people can see the problem we're having at present and people prefer to blame it all to the owners. It's like when we cannot win a race and blame our Dad for not buying us a better car but actually the problem lies on the driver and too many passengers in the car.

Having said that, I still think that Rafa's startegy can still work, BUT he needs exceptional players like Torres and Gerrard to help him achieve what he wants. He needs someone who can score goals eventhough it's only a half chance. This is how he wants to win it and this is what he knows, it still can work, I'm sure of it.

Fantastic post mate. You talked about being at a lucky age were you have watched us achieve so much as well as have great players and you wonder whether this has increased your expectations of the club. Well I will tell you this- I am 18 years old, have been a Liverpool fan for all my life and I have not once seen us pick up a league trophy. Infact, sometimes I wonder whether I jinx Liverpool as I was born in 1991 and we haven't won a league since 1990. However, the point I am trying to make is that despite me not having witnessed a league success, I always believe at the start of each season we can win the league for the first time in my lifetime. In term of high expectations, this is Liverpool Football Club and we are known across the world for being one of the most successful clubs about. At the moment, we are going through a rough patch, what with the Yank owners not delivering on their promises and putting the club into danger. However, this club has always been a club were the expectation is to win, and no matter what happens, that will remain. I personally, and I think many people will agree with me, feel that those expectations are their for a reason, and that is because this glorious club dosen't deserve to be were we currently are. Every club goes through a rough patch and I feel we can come out of it fighting. Afterall, this is Liverpool Football Club and that is what we are all about- fighting and winning. YNWA

probably at the moment.  base this view purely on lack of real investment in the summer.  We needed to keep the same aquad together, plus add players like Johnson and Aquilani and also a proven winger and striker.  i hate to say this but ferguson said he expected the main challenger for the prem title to come from the chavs as far as utd were concerned this season and it wasnt his usual mind games, he might be whatever but unfortunately he isnt stupid........said this before and i'll say it again, IMHO we overperformed last season and then lost the seasons star player.  carra is another year older and slower and our defence has been more sunday league quality than prem.  its shambolic really and demoralising. The long term prognosis isnt good either, our two 'star' players will go to the world cup and come back knackered for next season.  If Torres does well in SA and we dont finish in 4th place i can see him going as well.  

They may not be the richest club, have the best stadium, have a billionaire, Russian Owner and maybe they aren't the team players expect to go to to win a Cup. But, they are the team that fights for every inch, do it with what they got and still succeed.

Winning a championship by playing tough and being an Underdog is a lot sweeter than being the pretty teams with all the fame and glory.
For all the bad that has gone on this season. We're still in it. 10 points off top spot, Chelsea have played 2 less than us but still, thats not an insurmountable lead for Chelsea or Man U. 

I'm hoping that they can put the first half of the season behind them and gain some ground to at least hit the top 4 and maybe make a run for the title in mid March. W/out CL to play in or worry about they can gain ground and really finish strong.

Winning the league is not an Impossible thing, but they need to play as close to perfect from now till April.  Can they do it?   We'll see.

Fantastic post mate. You talked about being at a lucky age were you have watched us achieve so much as well as have great players and you wonder whther this has increased your expectations of the club. Well I will tell you this- I am 18 years old, have been a Liverpool fan for all my life and I have not once seen us pick up a league trophy. Infact, sometimes I wonder whether I jinx Liverpool as I was born in 1991 and we haven't won a league since 1990. However, the point I am trying to make is that despite me not having witnessed a league success, I always believe at the start of each season we can win the league for the first time in my lifetime. In term of high expectations, this is Liverpool Football Club and we are known across the world for being one of the most successful clubs about. At the moment, we are going through a rough patch, what with the Yank owners not delivering on their promises and putting the club into danger. However, this club has always been a club were the expectation is to win, and no matter what happens, that will remain. I personally, and I think many people will agree with me, feel that those expectations are their for a reason, and that is because this glorious club dosen't deserve to be were we currently are. Every club goes through a rough patch and I feel we can come out of it fighting. Afterall, this is Liverpool Football Club and that is what we are all about- fighting and wining. YNWA

Your no jinx Semple and you speak sensibly beyond your age so fair play. And for young lads like you I promise the wait for that title will be worth it when our great club finally ends its famine. Nobody knows how to celebrate like a Liverpool fan whether scouse Irish or other!!

 Brian I go into every new season holding the belief that we will win the league and anything else we are in.Maybe I am stupid but my belief in L.F.C. will never change nor will the desire to support the club.Just think of times of adversity and we have all stood together and we usually come out of the dark,hence our theme song,Y.N.W.A.Things might look bad at the moment but we have had bad times before (like the 1950s) and we got a man by the  name of Bill Shankly  and he woke the sleeping giant up.The good times will (must) come again so have faith and we will triumph.

Has the time come for me to lower those expectations?
Am I rating our current status to high based on whats gone before?
Or am I right to expect Liverpool football club to always be there or thereabouts when the trophies are handed out.
Nothing changes with respect to how I will ever feel for the club no matter what lies ahead but I would find it saddening to begin every year with little or no belief that this (winning the league) will be a possibility.  

Great post Brian.
Liked what Semple posted as well.

Im an al fart who has supported the club since 1962 Second Division.


NO is my answer.

Shankly took this club and pulled it up by its boot laces to put it on the road to become the most successful British club in history.
He didn't lower or compromise in any way his expectations of what we could become. It was his unswerving faith that set us off on the road we passed along in the decades that followed.
We laid the principals as a club and as supporters that has been emulated by many but never bettered.
Our tribal stories our songs our sayings and our anecdotes are unique to US.

Our Boot Room and the Liverpool way was instinctively born.

What is happening Brian and you can see it in every single post  is that either we swing from  say "In Rafa We Trust" with blind faith or somewhere in another post someone starts sniping him.
One minute we are praising the team or a player up. The next we are knocking them down and pulling them to bits.
This isnt just honest fan debate. This is complete confusion. We are eating ourselves from within.
We dont know where we are headed because of who has their hands on the wheel.

We started Reclaim the Kop and The Spirit Of Shankly.
We can initiate organisation and movement in support of our club.

In respect of our expectations, the minute we start to believe we are nothing more forever an Also Ran Club we throw away our history.
We spit in the face of Shankly and Paisley and those that followed. We trample over their legacy.

There are the others ......for who we must never stop believing for.

We maintain our expectation.
We ensure that we never throw into the fire those stories we tell our children.  It is our children who look to us to keep the faith.

Your no jinx Semple and you speak sensibly beyond your age so fair play. And for young lads like you I promise the wait for that title will be worth it when our great club finally ends its famine. Nobody knows how to celebrate like a Liverpool fan whether scouse Irish or other!!

Cheers Brian. However, i am just talking the way any other REAL Liverpool fan would talk. You know what, i believe what you say about nobody knowing how to celebrate like a Liverpool fan. I will never forget the day that Rafa and the lads brought home olde Big Ears. The amount of people out in the streets, climbing lamposts and anything else they could climb in order to get a good view of their heroes. I have also seen footage of when we have won league titles in the past, and to be honest, i cannot F***ing wait to witness the end of the league famine .

Its sad that even tho i get rared up for every Liverpool game that on recent run outs Ive almost fond myself not being surprised by the terrible results because the football we've been playing has been shocking and you normally get what you deserve and we just haven't been very deserving !

No we shouldn't expect less. We still have virtually the same team that went so close last season. I've been lucky enough to have been supporting Liverpool since the late 70's, and yes, I have been spoiled. The pain of twenty years without a title hurts, but not as much as it would hurt if we'd won f**k all before. We have a great history and tradition at Liverpool Football Club, a true bastion fortress of the working class people, the genuine people, the good people. We expect because we have tasted it so many times before.

I have a strange feeling that the owners will be gone by the summer, don't ask me why, I can just feel it. They are in a mess of their own making, and I feel they will cut their losses as they have nothing left to give. They have chosen to neglect the club, despite their recent windfalls with the sales of their American teams. If they were planning to stay I feel they'd have injected some money into the club by now. Once we are rid of them, the good times will return, and hopefully we will have new owners that feel the same way about Liverpool Football Club as we all do. YNWA. IRWT.