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      Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?

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      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #46: Feb 27, 2010 02:36:32 pm
      Couldn't ever say the Gerrard/Torres partnership has hurt our long term goals for the simple reason both players could be widely regarded as the top players in their position in the premiership possibly even the world, so it goes with out saying the manager will build his team/formation/tactics around such players.

      The only thing IMO that hurts our long term goals is Rafa's persistence in sticking with the same formation when Torres and Gerrard are injured and expecting players of much lower quality to come in and do a similar job. as an example N'Gog struggles when starting as a lone striker although he has a good goal return he could never be considered as world class or a match winner of Nando's quality. Sp IMO to achieve our long term goals with the current squad, we need a plan B/change of formation that suits the selected players strengths/weaknesses for when players of Stevies and Nando's Ilk are injured.
      solodee
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #47: Feb 28, 2010 05:38:50 pm
      Today's game is a typical example of what Gerrard could offer playing deep in the midfield. Accurate passes, Vision and clinical goals!
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #48: Mar 01, 2010 08:33:32 am
      Couldn't ever say the Gerrard/Torres partnership has hurt our long term goals for the simple reason both players could be widely regarded as the top players in their position in the premiership possibly even the world, so it goes with out saying the manager will build his team/formation/tactics around such players.

      The only thing IMO that hurts our long term goals is Rafa's persistence in sticking with the same formation when Torres and Gerrard are injured and expecting players of much lower quality to come in and do a similar job. as an example N'Gog struggles when starting as a lone striker although he has a good goal return he could never be considered as world class or a match winner of Nando's quality. Sp IMO to achieve our long term goals with the current squad, we need a plan B/change of formation that suits the selected players strengths/weaknesses for when players of Stevies and Nando's Ilk are injured.

      Came on here to say just that ^^^ but more eloquently, of course.  ;D

      All teams should play to their strengths and be prepared to adapt when things go tits up. Even when other teams had 'rumbled' our tatics they still had to cope with the individual brilliance of both Nando and Stevie. When they were absent.....well.

      As Blood states; without one, the other, or both in a system that's been 'rumbled' life becomes difficult. It's times like this that we need to look to our (remaining) strengths. In a weakened team the 'two holding'/lone striker set up has not been working.

      In short; without the Gerrard/Torres partnership we are worse and this will remain to be the case for as long as the belief and insistence remains that the system Rafa plays can be as effective without them.

      Tasonga
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #49: Mar 02, 2010 09:58:06 am
      No matter how good both players are, we have won F**k all since torres join Liverpool.

      The reason is most of our other players rely too much on the partnership and if one or both are injured, they seem to not know what to do.
      Adryan
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #50: Mar 02, 2010 10:12:12 am
      The system worked well in Torres' first season and relatively well in the second. I mean, when teams close either one of them down, we don't really have a second back-up plan.

      I mean, I would really love the Gerrard-Torres to go on forever but it's almost as though Rafa is building a team around a fading effective partnership. By always wanting Stevie behind the striker, we are limiting the players we are able to buy. We probably won't get another striker.

      Right now, the partnership only brings fear on sheet because of the names Gerrard and Torres but it's been quite awhile since I see them play parts in each other's goals.
      Reprobate
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #51: Mar 02, 2010 04:40:57 pm
      I mean, I would really love the Gerrard-Torres to go on forever but it's almost as though Rafa is building a team around a fading effective partnership. By always wanting Stevie behind the striker, we are limiting the players we are able to buy. We probably won't get another striker.
      Except Jovanovanovich. Then again, he's probably being lined up for a position at Left Back or something  :roll:
      solodee
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #52: Mar 03, 2010 04:17:09 pm
      I think the partnership affects Rafa's transfer market decisions. It also affects the input of other strikers in the team.
      LondonRed
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #53: Mar 18, 2010 10:16:17 pm
      not tonight
      sqirg
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #54: Mar 18, 2010 10:17:28 pm
      Red Kenny
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #55: Mar 18, 2010 10:28:27 pm
      Torres back to his best. Hopefully 3 on Sunday please! Vidic your nightmare has come back to haunt you!
      LFC-Red
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #56: Mar 18, 2010 10:37:56 pm
      Good opening post and I can see what Solodee is saying.

      I've often felt that Gerrard's body language and demeanour with his team mates has at times been quite negative. I've seen him 'slaughtered' by fellow reds because of this. But put yourself in his shoes for a minute, he has been the heartbeat of LFC now for a decade or so. He, week in week out does his 'roy of the rovers' stuff and has dragged us out of the s.hit on more times than I care to remember.

      Before we signed Torres we mainly relied on Gerrard for game breaking moments now with Torres we rely on him and Gerrard for game breaking moments. Therefore when Gerrard is fielded with Torres he probably looks to Torres in the same way as the rest of the team look to him. Gerrard probably looks to Torres for inspiration and visa versa knowing the quality of each player.

      It probably is discouraging for the two of them when players like Kuyt, Insua, Lucas, Riera ( I can now add him as he is the current panthomime villain) Babel and N'gog play with in the same side. Players know their team mates and what they are capable of or in said players' case, incapable of.

      I don't think Rafa has always spent money wisely in the recent years in aiding the team and captain with quality, he's often gone for quantity even when he's had enough to spend, 30 Million on a couple of players, rather than five. Gerrard is not getting any younger and with the club in it's prediciment with our shameful owners there is hardly any chance of genuine quality coming in over the foreseable future. How discouraging must that be for him, who like most Liverpudlians want LFC to reach the holy grail.
      LFC-Red
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #57: Mar 18, 2010 10:40:47 pm
      I think the partnership affects Rafa's transfer market decisions. It also affects the input of other strikers in the team.

      Let's be fair we haven't got any other able strikers in the squad Solodee. Who's fault is that?
      crouchinho
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #58: Mar 18, 2010 10:49:52 pm
      Let's be fair we haven't got any other able strikers in the squad Solodee. Who's fault is that?

      A bit of everyone's, you must admit too.

      Rafa and the owners. Both at fault here.
      crouchinho
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #59: Mar 18, 2010 10:50:58 pm
      Good opening post and I can see what Solodee is saying.

      I've often felt that Gerrard's body language and demeanour with his team mates has at times been quite negative. I've seen him 'slaughtered' by fellow reds because of this. But put yourself in his shoes for a minute, he has been the heartbeat of LFC now for a decade or so. He, week in week out does his 'roy of the rovers' stuff and has dragged us out of the s.hit on more times than I care to remember.

      Before we signed Torres we mainly relied on Gerrard for game breaking moments now with Torres we rely on him and Gerrard for game breaking moments. Therefore when Gerrard is fielded with Torres he probably looks to Torres in the same way as the rest of the team look to him. Gerrard probably looks to Torres for inspiration and visa versa knowing the quality of each player.

      It probably is discouraging for the two of them when players like Kuyt, Insua, Lucas, Riera ( I can now add him as he is the current panthomime villain) Babel and N'gog play with in the same side. Players know their team mates and what they are capable of or in said players' case, incapable of.

      I don't think Rafa has always spent money wisely in the recent years in aiding the team and captain with quality, he's often gone for quantity even when he's had enough to spend, 30 Million on a couple of players, rather than five. Gerrard is not getting any younger and with the club in it's prediciment with our shameful owners there is hardly any chance of genuine quality coming in over the foreseable future. How discouraging must that be for him, who like most Liverpudlians want LFC to reach the holy grail.

      That is a really good post, mate. Really is.
      idwLFC89
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #60: Mar 19, 2010 01:25:09 am
      I noticed something quite odd in the match against man City. Gerrard had a short spell of brilliance and for the most part of the game, it seemed to me like he wasn't really excited playing with the quality of squad he had to play with.

      Suddenly:

      Torres comes in and I saw a swift change in attitude towards the game. Gerrard started making some daring runs and hot passes even some show-boating passes found their way into his game. All well and good.

      My worry is this?

      Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership affected Gerrard's game negatively? Has he reconditioned his mind to feed fully, the Torres-partnership at the expense of being the best attacking midfielder in the world?

      Every pundit and their grandmothers tend to push the false conclusion that it is the partnership that carries the entire team as the rest of the players are middle-of-the-table class players. Has that play any role in Gerrard's attitude towards the game?

      The partnership has also limited inimically, our options upfront. We have come to rely predominantly on the two players playing well; is that good for an long term Liverpool FC plans?

      I can remember Alex Ferguson saying at the beginning of this season that our dependence on Gerrard and Torres solely meant we were not a threat this season.

      Is there another way forward without asking for a new owner of manager?

      I don't think Gerrard's game has been limited by Torres, but not for reasons you'd expect.

      I think Gerrard is finally playing with a world class player as good as himself. It's nice when you play with players that are as good as you are. That's why players become attracted to team's like Chelsea, like Real Madrid, Barcelona, the manc sh*te, and until now, usually Us. Gerrard has done almost everything in the game, he's been the superstar. Why does he still come to training? Just because he's the Captain? Do you think he's the still the wide eyed young lad that put on the practice shirt for the first time with the first team? The same kid who was still young, and able to learn, because the wasn't The Man, he was just a kid. A kid who's mouth would still drop after watching a legend score a wonderful goal. A kid who still excited, and astounded by new countries, stadiums, and most importantly, opportunities.

      When you lose, and you get beat bad, and the other team is on their day. You look at those players, you look at their chemistry. You look at their faces when they score, and you want to be them. It doesn't matter what team you're on: why? Because you're amazed by what they can do, and you'd like to be able to do it yourself. The flare is what make's football fun, especially for professionals. Why? It's because they have the greatest job in the world, they play football for a living. But it's still a profession, and they have to play no matter what. What if they're having a tough time at home, and not even the joy of lacing up can take the pain away anymore. Perhaps over that 9 month span every year, it just gets old. The screaming fans, the jet planes, the journalists, the bias announcers, the constant scrutiny, the isolation that comes with being someone that is famous.

      What happens when football isn't that fun anymore?

      How do you get through that, and just do your job? Because hundreds of thousands, even millions, depend on you bossing the midfield, or being the clinical striker, or being the sound defender. And they'll sometimes make your life hell, when you're not.

      Especially when you get fed up with those around you. Gerrard, until arguably this year, has been one of the top 5 (at most 10) players in the world for the last 5 years running. Everyone else has been trying to emulate him. You don't think he gets bored being the best? Being in the spotlight? The go to guy? Why can't anyone else shoulder some of the responsibility. I mean, if he's in the line up, he's expected to be our best player, because he's Steven Gerrard Gerrard. It must be frustrating not being able to have an off day, because no one else on the team can step up consistently when they need to. That's the frustration: when it gets to a point where you're burdening it all because the players around you aren't good enough.

      That's why Torres left Atletico to come to Anfield: He wanted a bigger club. He wanted to play with players that were as good as himself. He wanted to be challenged in training, and not just in matches. That's the only way to get better, and improve.

      Why? Because IT'S FUN! These guys started out playing football, because it was fun. It's nice when you make a mockery of 3 defenders and score a goal, but it's also nice when you see a teammate do the same. It's nice when your own keeper ruins your perfect shot. Or your own defenseman intercepts the perfect pass. Because hopefully when game time comes, they'll be doing that stuff to the other team. It's fun when you have a kick about, and you show off, and even though you're one of the best players in the world, someone else still surprises you.

      Torres and Gerrard are two of the best at what they do, and they enjoy playing with each other. I think that's because they're finally playing with someone who has a spark as bright as their own.

      Stevie almost left us, because he asked himself if Liverpool were good enough, and most importantly would we still be good enough in the future. It's the sort of question that creeps up on you, when you're having a bad day. It's the sort of question that creeps up on you when Insua fucks up at the back, and lets the other team score a daft goal. It's when Lucas does the same at times. Or Skrtel. Or Agger. Then Kuyt misses a golden chance. Ngog flubs one. It comes to mind when we look at the bench, and realize there's no reinforcements available. There's no spark: why? Because they're all in the training room.

      We've been playing with our second, or third choice team for most of the season. Gerrard's not playing with other players of his caliber. It gets frustrating. It's frustrating when you can't understand, why after weeks, months, years, of training, some guys just keep making the same mistakes.

      But then a guy like Torres comes along, and he's as good as, or dare i say, better than Gerrard is. He's fun to play with, because if you're Gerrard, playing with Torres is like playing with the best kids on the playground, when you're still a little guy. The things they do astonish you; they astonish everyone in Torres' case. It just makes the game fun again.

      There's only one phrase that fans hope never crosses a footballer's mind: 'it's just a game'.

      Everyone else can think that, except for your multi million dollar midfielder, or striker.

      You want them to be out there on the pitch enjoying themselves, and having players around them that are most of the time effective and fun to play with. Because nine months a year is a long time to be in the spotlight, especially at such a young age, which is where all footballers start. Torres and Gerrard want the same things. They want to win trophies, they want to play great football, they want to have fun, and enjoy this relatively short period of their lives. So of course they're asking themselves the same question: is the current Liverpool team, with a few tweeks, going to be able to do that?

      I think the results of the season have sounded a profound 'No.' There's an incredible difference in our productivity, and the way we look aesthetically, when Torres and Gerrard are playing, compared to when they're not on the pitch. We have to acknowledge that. What that means is: there's a problem with our depth, that's preventing us from winning trophies. I know it, you know, Torres and Gerrard know it, the journalists, and announcers know it, and the opposing managers know it too.

      But what that really means on ground level, in the dressing room is: Torres and Gerrard want to be able to depend on their teammates, with the same level of intensity that everyone else depends on them.

      It's that simple.

      Thanks for reading, if you read the whole thing. I'm up for debate. God, I just had to get that off my chest.

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