Trending Topics

      Next match: Betis v LFC [Friendly] Sat 27th Jul @ 12:30 am
      Acrisure Stadium

      Today is the 16th of June and on this date LFC's match record is P0 W0 D0 L0

      LFC Reds Poll

      Q. Vote for your man of the match.

      Steven Gerrard
      (45.6%)
      Sotis Kyrgiakos
      (8.9%)
      Emiliano Insua
      (3.3%)
      Maxi Rodriguez
      (40%)
      Pepe Reina
      (2.2%)

      Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match

      Read 58676 times
      0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
      Ross
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****
      • Started Topic

      • 19,916 posts | 165 
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #897: Apr 05, 2010 09:18:18 pm
      Just seen that Tomkins article.  Brilliant.

      I love the way he just puts everything you're thinking into words, even when you think it's not possible to yourself.
      Gow
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 13,531 posts | 282 
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #898: Apr 05, 2010 09:19:30 pm
      It's just hit half time on LFC TV now Kenny.

      We were definitely in the ascendancy first half, but lacking in the final third. Hellishly boring to watch though really. Maxi unlucky hitting the bar.
      redprint
      • Forum Alan Hansen
      • ****

      • 636 posts | 23 
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #899: Apr 05, 2010 09:33:36 pm
      I watched the game and the service given to Torres was poor. A striker should not have to search for the ball. When Ngog came on and then Babel, the midfield pushed up closer to the front man and started to feed better balls into the Birmingham area. We all know that Torres when given good service is in a different class at finishing the job off then Ngog. His goals tally shows this.

      My question is why wasn't Babel bought on first which produced a more attacking team, which could have serviced one of the most leathel strikers in the world more often. Why take him off then introduce a more attacking line up afterwards.  As much as I hate to admit it, Rafa got it wrong. 
      hardcoresoldier
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 5,160 posts | 1288 
      • The Liverpool Way is The Only Way
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #900: Apr 05, 2010 10:05:59 pm
      Priorities? The order of importance to something or someone. Yesterday, Rafael Benitez chose to prioritize the Europa League over the Champions League. The way the team was set out said it all. And this statement is not just about the Torres substitution, it encompasses many mistakes that resulted in our inability to break down a team that allowed us onto them, again. Many posters have stated that they felt this was an attacking team, well, the first half, barring the Rodriguez crossbar strike, showed very little attacking intent at all. Any team that Rafa puts out that includes Kuyt and Lucas, we may as well start with nine men. The only reason i can think that Mascherano and Agger were rested, would have been due to the midweek excursion at Benfica. But didn't Gerrard, Torres, Johnson, Insua, Lucas, Carragher and Kuyt play too? Insua is getting raped every game he plays, it's getting embarassing to watch and teams are targetting our full backs more than ever.

      Yesterday was an awkward encounter to watch, 2 counter attacking teams locking horns. While the onus is usually on the home team to attack, Birmingham were quite happy to let us onto them, a tactic they use frequently against the big sides, frustrate and stifle, pretty much the same style as Rafa employs. I feel that yesterday the onus was on us to attack, we were the side still in with a chance of Champions League qualification, Birmingham, comfortably mid table and mission accomplished, their mission?, to stay in the Premier League. Birmingham were quite happy to let us have the ball, and in the first half we did F**k all with it. I have watched the game twice, once via internet stream yesterday ( sh*t picture ) and today ( LFC TV ). It wasn't pretty second time around, in fact it just highlighted our inadequacies even more.

      I've gone on about it all season, and i'll keep going on about it until it improves or Rafa changes it, the Lucas and Kuyt scenario. A lot of forumites are still in love with Lucas and Kuyt, and that is great for them, but i'm sure i'm watching a different game then. Kyrgiakos and Carragher were still hoofing the ball over the top of the midfield yesterday, and i am of the assumption that it is more preferable in their eyes than passing it to Lucas. I can see why they do it, ninety percent of the time it gets hit straight back to them anyway, so why bother?. I made a point of focussing more on Lucas' and Kuyt's gameplay to give a more informed assessment of their performances, what i saw was shocking. Players seem to not want to pass to Lucas when he is available, more often than not because he never makes space for himself. He is so static it's unbelievable. Gerrard, Maxi, Yossi, nobody even looked at him when they had the ball. Please don't percieve this to be a witch hunt, feel free to watch the game again and you'll see what i mean. Kuyt was substandard again, he can't even do the basics, yet he's always trying the complex, and please, no more YouTube clips of last season, that's gone.

      The first half, well there's nothing of note to post about, lots of possession, passed it around a lot, did F**k all with it, Birmingham were happy that we posed no real threat, we were playing into their hands.

      Second half, what changed the complexion? Steven Gerrard did. That goal in the 47th minute changed everything. A brilliantly taken goal by Gerrard and an excellent pass from Johnson  :f_tongueincheek:. Birmingham's game plan went out of the window, they had no choice but to come out and attack us. We started attacking the right flank with some purpose, Johnson coming into the game more. Then Birmingham struck, how the F**k McFadden got that cross in i'll never know. He was surrounded by Kyrgiakos, Insua and Yossi, this in turn drew Johnson into the middle, Carragher was drawn over too and Maxi should have picked up Ridgewell, or at least warned Johnson of his presence. The game opened up from here, and this is why i found the Torres substitution all the more bewildering. In all fairness to Torres, he was marked out of the game by 2 men, Johnson and Dan, an aspect we should have utilised to our advantage by involving Kuyt more, we didn't though. And when we did, he just did his usual dilly dally bollocks and killed the pace and fluidity. A great example of this when Lucas played a forward pass!, yes that's right, through to Kuyt and he just watched it go past him!. This pass just happened before the turning point of the game for me.

      And after watching this calamitous play, and with Torres getting a bit more space due to the change in focus from Birmingham, Rafa takes Torres off in the 64th minute! Now if it had still been 0-0 at this point and we were going nowhere, then i'd have advocated the decision. The fact that Birmingham opened up more after their equaliser was indicative of the probability that they were confident of getting another goal and would play into our hands. And that's what did happen. Their tails were up and we exposed this.

      Shortly after coming on, Johnson put in a brilliant cross for NGog and he should have least got the header on target, he didn't. Would Torres have scored it? We'll never know, but he is a much better aerial exponent than NGog is. Directly from this play Birmingham should have scored, Bowyer missed a sitter, a poor clearance from Insua, who had come across to cover Johnson after the NGog chance. Then Kuyt had a simple header back across goal to Maxi or NGog, he tried to score with his head instead. Then Rafa took Yossi off for Babel on 70 minutes. Yossi is a good player, i like him, but only in the middle of the pitch he is effective for us. Time after time he kept coming inside, just following his instinct, but forced to go against that instinct by poor team selection. On 72 minutes, another glorious chance for NGog, he put it wide, was it too much to expect him to put it on target?

      We were now in the ascendency, Birmingham's back four were tired, an afternoon of virtual containment football was tiring them out. We had fresh legs out there, we should have finished them off. Babel made another break throught the middle, laid it off to NGog and ran on, NGog fu**ed the return up. Babel was coming into the game even more, another break down the left, gave it to Kuyt, Kuyt tried to do a girly little backflick, ended up standing on the ball and giving it to Dan and set up a counter attack for Birmingham, when all he had to do was a simple sidefoot back to Babel. Rafa then saw sense and too Kuyt off after 80 minutes of sh*te! Again, our supposed saviour gets 10 minutes to try and change the game, excellent idea! Babel again, broke down the left and put NGog in to cross to Maxi, who again should have scored, but hit it straight at Aquilani! There was a 2 foot gap to aim at, Hart was in no man's land.

      The last five minutes were frantic. Gerrard urging us on, getting frustrated with the lack of movement around him. NGog getting a great chance to put Aquilani in but putting it behind him, Gerrard almost putting it in the top corner, then Maxi should have hit the target but blazed it over. Babel had another great chance, but put it in the side netting from a tight angle. Then came the golden chance, probably the pass of the season from Gerrard, NGog pulled it down brilliantly and then hit it F***ing straight at Joe Hart! Now i know we can't say what might have happened had Torres been on the pitch, but the glaring mistake is this, he WASN'T.

      I feel Rafa should have gone with Babel up top with Torres from the off, this would have taken the focus off Torres slightly as Babel's pace would also have worried Dan and Johnson. Kuyt has no pace, so barring an aerial threat, Kuyt was basically impotent.

      I'm going to make a few comments here now, and i expect a few neg's in all honesty, and the usual posse of forumites who usually gather round posters who go against the grain, systematically victimising people who dare speak out against Rafa. I'll probably get a ban too, but F**k it.

      Rafa has spent over £230 million since his arrival in 2004. Never mind the F***ing net spend bollocks, never mind the owners, never mind the buy to sell. He has spent £230 million, regardless of how much he has recouped, he has spent that money. Over 75 signings in five years, that's roughly fifteen players a season. He chose to buy quantity over quality, he weighed up the options, and he made the choice. Nobody else did, Rafa did. Considering that the owners have pulled the purse strings in the last 2-3 seasons then that just highlights how wrong he got it the seasons before. From 75 players, you'd expect him to be able to field a pretty strong 25 man squad, that's excluding the current squad. Gerrard and Carra were already here. Roughly 75 players have come and gone.

      His persistence this season with Lucas this season has cost us many games, we can bleat all we like about bad luck etc. Other teams have had bad luck too. Dirk Kuyt has been w*nk, we have Pacheco chomping at the bit, yet it is now a possibility that he may go on loan to Celtic! Kuyt may give his all, but his technical ability this season has been akin to Lucas'. What's different this season to last? Our defence has been completely altered and our central midfield unit is imbalanced, too much defence and nowhere near enough offence. Am i alone in seeing this? Am i the only one who thinks that Lucas isn't fit to wear the shirt? Am i the only one that cringes when i see Kuyt fail to control the ball again and again and again.

      This may not sound like the statement of a man that supports Rafa, but i assure you it is. I love Rafa, i love that he loves this club, i feel for him when things go wrong, i respect him for sticking with us when he could so easily just F**k off to Madrid and build his own dynasty. My problem is this, he is making it harder for himself with every game that passes, we are expecting change, we are not seeing change. His refusal to play youngsters, why not give Kelly a shot at left back?, i know he's a right back, but what's to lose. Insua is out on his feet, he's only getting this run due to the injuries of Aurelio. Put Kelly right back and Johnson or Carra to left back. Drop Kuyt, pick Pacheco. Give Yossi a crack in the middle. Give Babel a try up top with Torres if you want to play a 4-4-2. Just try something different.

      There's an old saying. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And if it's broke?........................ ........................ ........................ ...

      What do you do if it's broke Rafa?........................ .. Pray tell.

        
      CurlyRed
      • Forum Emlyn Hughes
      • ****

      • 799 posts |
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #901: Apr 05, 2010 10:24:55 pm
      Have to admit I agree with ^^^^^^^^ all of the above (except we can't play Kelly 'cos he's injured) but we could play more of the youngsters and thus be less predictable to the opposition.  Kuyt has been poor all season and Lucas well (never a fan) he's an ok squad player for lesser opposition.  Just wish Rafa read some of these posts!  :f_wah:
      hardcoresoldier
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 5,160 posts | 1288 
      • The Liverpool Way is The Only Way
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #902: Apr 05, 2010 11:14:25 pm
      Have to admit I agree with ^^^^^^^^ all of the above (except we can't play Kelly 'cos he's injured) but we could play more of the youngsters and thus be less predictable to the opposition.  Kuyt has been poor all season and Lucas well (never a fan) he's an ok squad player for lesser opposition.  Just wish Rafa read some of these posts!  :f_wah:

      I know Kelly's injured now mate, he wasn't before though. Insua has been a F***ing liability. It's not like Rafa doesn't play people out of position is it?
      CurlyRed
      • Forum Emlyn Hughes
      • ****

      • 799 posts |
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #903: Apr 05, 2010 11:19:34 pm
      Insua shouldn't be first choice at all but Rafa is quite stubborn about this although I appreciate we have few options for LB we get exploited everytime by good opposition. 
      hardcoresoldier
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 5,160 posts | 1288 
      • The Liverpool Way is The Only Way
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #904: Apr 05, 2010 11:25:56 pm
      Thing is Fazza I'm thinking about logically and from what I seen on the pitch, the whole game changed through the substitutions, had Torres stayed on the pitch there is a chance the game would not have opened up as much and Torres may never have got them chances and everyone would be crying why did Rafa not make any changes ?

      Rafa almost got it spot on, had Aquilani got in the way of Maxi's shot and had N'Gog scored with one his chances this would not even be up for debate. Rafa took a gamble that almost paid off and had N'Gog shown more composure we'd have 3 points simple.

      Alright Blood. I've moved you're quote from the 'Is Rafa The Right Man' thread to here as I didn't want to clog up an already congested thread as it is.

      With regards to your above reply to fazza21 about the Torres substitution, the whole game changed when Birmingham equalised, it was nothing to do with the substitutions mate. Gerrard's goal opened the game up as it forced Birmingham to change their usual counter attacking style. They equalised on 55 minutes and were starting to open up even more as they realised they had a chance of winning the game, abandoning their original gameplan. If anyone needed taking off then it was Kuyt, not Torres. Nine minutes after the Birmingham goal was too soon to bring Torres off. Gaps were showing as Birmingham tired, and there is no better striker in the world at exploiting tiring defenders than Torres. In my opinion it was a mistake by Rafa.

      Had you taken a striker off today, would you have taken Kuyt off, or Torres? I know what my answer would be.
      RedLFCBlood
      • Guest
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #905: Apr 05, 2010 11:49:10 pm
      Kuyt obviously. But then again I wouldn't have changed from teh team that beat Sunderland either.
      molbys belly
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,537 posts | 123 
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #906: Apr 05, 2010 11:55:23 pm
      was watching torres the first 50 on lfctv today
      he can win a match on his own
      why the F**k did he take him off  :mad:
      CurlyRed
      • Forum Emlyn Hughes
      • ****

      • 799 posts |
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #907: Apr 05, 2010 11:57:20 pm
      Kuyt had a very poor game and could easily have been replaced by N Gog - but hey it's gone now just hope that by some miracle we do get 4th spot.
      molbys belly
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,537 posts | 123 
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #908: Apr 06, 2010 12:00:22 am
      think kuyt must be a member of rafas famliy sometimes  :)
      hardcoresoldier
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 5,160 posts | 1288 
      • The Liverpool Way is The Only Way
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #909: Apr 06, 2010 12:06:25 am
      I haven't seen the game so can't really comment on the performance. I listened to it on Five Live and it didn't really sound convincing. But apparently we didn't play too bad so I'm told.

      I was angry at the decision to take off one of the best strikers in the world, when we badly needed another goal. I'm sure there is reasons for that decision but what got my goat was that a defender or midfielder could have easily been taken off for us to have two up front and not have Torres tied down with the burdon of leading the line on his own. If he was taken off because he was tired, then maybe he needs some help up front.

      Bring on Benfica.

      http://www.lfcreds.com/reds/index.php?topic=28942.900
      joemack
      • Forum Graeme Souness
      • ***

      • 377 posts | 13 
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #910: Apr 06, 2010 12:12:49 am
      couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo

      got to be my fav quote,
      corballyred
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 17,707 posts | 307 
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #911: Apr 06, 2010 12:17:26 am
      What ever we think of taking Torres off it is fairly obvious what our captain thought of it, I personally think it was an insane move obviously the same as our captain thought.

      Rafa should have played his strongest team yesterday, Babel Masch and Agger should have started something.
      RedRoy
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 3,483 posts | 88 
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #912: Apr 06, 2010 12:33:16 am
      At the start of the season, we were all blinded by the lack of inward investement, and that was followed by a catastrophic injury list.Of late we have been re-assured that now we are returning to a virtually full squad,those problems are behind us.That surely must be reflected in our results?I personally will reserve my analysis until the end of the season,but I believe yesterday's game said a lot of what is wrong on the field, and Torres and stevie's eye contact on his substitution,said a lot.Dead man walking?
      djdan
      • Banned
      • **

      • 189 posts | -30 
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #913: Apr 06, 2010 01:16:57 am


      My question is why wasn't Babel bought on first which produced a more attacking team, which could have serviced one of the most leathel strikers in the world more often. Why take him off then introduce a more attacking line up afterwards.  As much as I hate to admit it, Rafa got it wrong. 

      Another wrong decision - and one I don't get at all.

      Babel was shown a red against Benfica, therefore, he cannot play.  But against Birmingham, he was rested...? Why? He played only 30 mins against Benfica, and he won't be playing again on Thursday.  We needed his attacking abilities, but he sat on the bench - until it was too late again!  Instead, Benayoun played... and I'm sure we'll be relying on him again on Thursday. 

      Let's hope the excuse won't have to be 'Benayoun was tired'.
      frizzby5
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 18,362 posts | 627 
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #914: Apr 06, 2010 01:33:46 am
      I must admit the Torres Substitution totally baffled me as well as Gerrard ! but as others have said on here one man doesn't make a team and the couple of chances N'gog had could have gone in and then Everybody would have been patting Rafa  on the back !

      Onwards and upwards !
      gareth g
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 15,469 posts | 366 
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #915: Apr 06, 2010 01:44:31 am
      Didn't see the game, Steve, but thought Pacheco, would be be a better option.
      redkenny
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 24,912 posts | 1058 
      • 97 - Always Remembered
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #916: Apr 06, 2010 04:02:38 am

      Yeah you posted that after I posted mate and I read it. Thanks for linking me up though.

      Just seen this posted on FB. Gerrard's reaction was the same as mine at the time to be fair.

      Torres Gerrard reaction v Birmingham Substituted.
      barrymanulow
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,014 posts | -14 
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #917: Apr 06, 2010 05:58:40 am
      Rafa found a winning formula against Sunderland when we battered them, and looked potent, especially first half.

      Reina

      johnson-carragher-agger-insua

      gerrard-mascherano-maxi

      kuyt-torres-babel

      then against Birmingham

      Reina

      Johnson-Carragher-kyriakos-insua

      gerrard-lucas

      kuyt-benayoun-maxi

      torres

      babel-agger-mascherano out

      lucas-kyriakos-benayoun  in

      babel being dropped the most puzzling because he is not even eligible for the Europa match

      mascherano being rested for Thursday, annoying because of the obvious difference in quality between him and mascherano, and this was a vital 3 points at stake.

      agger, who had been top class against Sunderland, especially in the attacking sense.  Another puzzling move.

      So Torres was made to run his socks off on his own, rather than play his part in an attacking set up.

      That was rafas first mistake, the second mistake was to not correct the first mistake with his substitutions.

      some folks will call them gambles, but are they gambles?  or mistakes?

      It seems the opinions are divided on that question.





      bigvYNWA
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 16,795 posts | 994 
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #918: Apr 06, 2010 06:17:19 am
      Every mistake in football is almost always a gamble that doesn't pay off ;)
      Billy1
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 10,638 posts | 1966 
      Re: Birmingham 1 - 1 Liverpool - In-game and Post-match
      Reply #919: Apr 06, 2010 09:20:47 am
      What ever we think of taking Torres off it is fairly obvious what our captain thought of it, I personally think it was an insane move obviously the same as our captain thought.

      Rafa should have played his strongest team yesterday, Babel Masch and Agger should have started something.
      We should play our strongest in every match,it annoys me whenever I hear about players being tired.As far as I am concerned tiredness is in the head and professional footballers should be able to play two games a week.I feel if we had the likes of Mascherano and Agger playing from the kick off we would of tore Birmingham apart.I also feel Torres could of got us the three points if he had not been subbed.

      Quick Reply