Lucas Leiva (Liverpool > S.S. Lazio)

With Mignolet our most important player for me if we want to get back where we should be

                    Mignolet

           Kolo               Sahko

Johnson        Agger               Enrique

    Henderson            Gerrard

                   Coutinho

         Suarez           Sturridge

Thats it.

With Mignolet our most important player for me if we want to get back where we should be

Saved us 2 points on Sunday Bri, some world class saves.

Very hard to be perfect at his position when not having a ball for such long periods. Very difficult to "set the tempo" when every other pass/touch of other players is poor. Lucas was also responsible for some bad ones, got turned/was forced to foul a few times. Wasn't his best post injury bud overall he did very well. Was tiring a lot towards the end of previous games but I thought he wass near 90 minutes on Sunday. Great so see. We need to keep the ball better to see the best of Lucas. Actually glad he so not in international form yet, nice bit of break for him now. He'll use it well I'm sure, seems like a top pro too.

I reckon he will become the player he was now that he has captain fantastic along side him it takes the pressure off him to be the only one breaking up the play, he will sit just infront of the defence as the games progress and will improve

Excellent piece here:
http://eplindex.com/34672/lucas-lynchpin-stats-compared-to-rival-defensive-midfielders.html

Excellent piece here:
http://eplindex.com/34672/lucas-lynchpin-stats-compared-to-rival-defensive-midfielders.html

Amateurish in parts, especially when it goes onto the dribbled past bit.  It certainly doesn't take into account that Lucas filters players to wide areas and hands off responsibility to his full back and if in doubt, he takes one for the team and gives away those niggly little fouls,

Amateurish in parts, especially when it goes onto the dribbled past bit.  It certainly doesn't take into account that Lucas filters players to wide areas and hands off responsibility to his full back and if he doubt, he takes one for the team and gives away those niggly little fouls,

Still an excellent piece overall though I thought.
Pretty well balanced even if the writer gets one or two things wrong.

How funny was Lucas Tweet back to that fan who said he had a poor game, think lucas response was "watch the whole game not the last 10mins" which was brilliant and a true statement.

 Wonder if he'll tweet me back today. Awful, slower than me.

Often in football there is a chain reaction caused by a tiny fault somewhere, and the fault manifests itself in a completely different area of the pitch. This causes fans and commentators to jump on the effect rather than the cause, and the challenge is to try and see the wood from the trees a little bit.

 Yesterday my read was that we got found out a little in that Southampton exploited our weaknesses very cleverly. They are a highly physical team, not in the sense that they foul a lot but in the sense that they have an abundance of energy. As such, they pressed higher up than even they normally do, and in doing so asked us a question we didn't have an answer to. Why not? Well we didn't have any sort of out ball whatsoever. Lucas is unable to get away from the centre halves for fear of being passed around should we lose it (he must surely be the slowest player in the league I think). Gerrard has to sit in to protect both Lucas and the back four, Aspas was unable to influence the game in any way shape or form. So where are the defenders going to pass it when they get pressured? Moses maybe, Sturridge perhaps, but both are low percentage balls and alien to what we are actually trying to do.

 When you are as comprehensively out run, out competed and out thought as we were yesterday it is easy to jump to the wrong conclusion. "Lack of creativity" is the call, but if you rarely are able to get the ball into the opponents half AND GET PLAYERS FORWARD before they have flooded the edge of their box it makes it very difficult to create anything. This is particularly so when we are missing our arch lock picker, and I wonder if those who were advocating starting him on the bench still think so.

 The problem we are going to have is that other teams will now seek to emulate Southamptons success. If we have such a complete lack of mobility in midfield, they ARE going to be able to swarm around us and pin us back on the edge of our own box. Every team we have played so far this season has managed it, so others will too. And what is the solution? Well, no really successful teams play with two holding midfielders who both sit in. At most you need one holder, and he MUST be able to have enough pace to allow him to occasionally get further than 20 yards away from the centre backs.

 When you clear the wood from the trees the problems we are having are obvious. I know it won't make me popular but replace Lucas with a more energetic and athletic midfielder and much of our "lack ofs" would become a thing of the past. Joe Allen? All day long for me yes.     

Lucas is no Mascherano or Hamann but I still rate him. He's tactically intelligent, which is vital for the role, and his distribution is generally good. He definitely lacks mobility and that's a problem when Gerrard is beside him because then both our centre midfielders lack the ability to really get about the midfield, especially after an hour of a game.

But the greatest problem with Lucas is that we have no one to really push him for his position or replace him when he's playing sh*t. Henderson is not a defensive midfielder and Joe Allen is too weak for the position and has generally been average at best in a red shirt.

I don't understand why a defensive midfielder wasn't bought during the summer. I would have actually tipped Flamini on a free before Arsenal got him. He has already improved their midfield. Gareth Barry was also ideal for us on loan so don't understand why he wasn't signed. We needed someone but bought no one and it might well bite us in the arse.
 

He's been one of our better performers all season, in the first half yesterday he was everywhere and showing enough pace to close down people Sakho couldn't catch on more than one occasion.

You've been banging this drum for a while and this seems nothing more than trying to light the fire of a witch-hunt.

Aspas was the clear problem in the first half, if the player stationed in the 10 role cannot get on the ball when your other midfielders have it, it is generally his fault through lack of movement. Granted he's not used to playing this position but still, his statuesque performance crippled our link up play, add to that Hendo having a complete mare of a game and our only 'out ball' became Moses. He then decided that on every occasion he would try to beat his man no matter where he was receiving the ball and this one dimensional thinking needs to change because Southampton saw him as our main threat and only 'out' ball and double, even triple teamed him at at times. It doesn't take a genius to realise if there are 3 people on you, there is huge amounts of space elsewhere, the space that was granted us was actually on the right hand side and the only player doing anything to exploit the space wasn't Henderson, but Toure.

Trying to shoulder any of the blame to Lucas for our shocking performance yesterday is harsh beyond reason in my opinion. There were many  more reasons and more pressing problems than Lucas, who has in fact, since returning this season from a full pre-season looked quicker than last year, better than last year, almost back to his best in some games.

Extremely harsh OP and calling or Joe Allen to step in, in his place is a real lack of appreciation in what Lucas does and what Joe Allen could never do.

 A predictable and welcome response Luke in that it provides balance. I actually would agree that Lucas has played reasonably well all season, but much like Simon Mignolet, I'd kind of be happier if he didn't need to. As it is, the pattern of play and structure is very much there to protect Lucas and to allow him to at least hold his own, and my point is that this in itself is holding us back. God knows what would happen if Gerrard was to venture further forward (aside from everyone on the forum slagging the captain for being "irresponsible"). Lucas would get absolutely massacred though that much is certain, and I think it's time we addressed it.

 As for your assertion that Aspas was the "clear problem" in the first half, in a sense you are right. Once again he was absolutely garbage, so he didn't help that's for sure. That said, he did go off in the second half and the situation got progressively worse.

 I leave you with this thought. We had the spectacle at the end of a Liverpool team being 1-0 down at home and being unable to press the ball around the pitch because our holding midfielder cannot move more than 10 paces away from the centre backs. I have a full appreciation of what Lucas does to our playing style, I'm not sure however that you do.

For me Lucas looked top class under Kenny. Neither before Kenny or since has he looked half the player. Yes he has good games but looks no where near as good or consistent a player now.

I have always like Lucas,  and defended him when most wanted him gone. However I think there was an over-reaction by many, partly out of guilt and partly sheer delight when he started to play well. The fact is he makes more tackles than any top midfield player. Sadly the fact is, he also loses more tackles than any top midfielder.

I am not too worried about his lack of pace, Alonso was probably even slower, but obviously Alonso had other strings to his bow, plus a physical advantage.

I just think we need a little more than Lucas offers on occasion, and while I would not want to lose him, like Henderson I would rather see him as a squad player rather than an automatic first choice. We need options, a more dynamic player with strength and perhaps a better range of passing and more of a goal threat might be nice too.

Maybe we're just not good at pressing? 

Maybe if we were pressing them they wouldn't have been able to play as they did?

Maybe if the back 4 were any good with the ball at their feet, or had the confidence to push out instead of hiding in the 18yrd box then Lucas isn't under constant pressure from all sides?

Maybe if there was good movement up front then players would have found space, creating more opportunities to score and therefore win the game?

To say Lucas was to blame for that performance is stretching it a bit Mick.

Lost a game have we?

Remember a game last season Allen played Lucas' role for one whole half. An experiment Rogers soon realised needed forgetting about. No desire to be put through that again any time soon. Certainly not through choice.

Bring back Charlie Adam!

Lost a game have we?

Remember a game last season Allen played Lucas' role for one whole half. An experiment Rogers soon realised needed forgetting about. No desire to be put through that again any time soon. Certainly not through choice.

Bring back Charlie Adam!

Adam is too creative for that role mate, we need Christian Poulsen back.

Maybe we're just not good at pressing? 

Maybe if we were pressing them they wouldn't have been able to play as they did?

Maybe if the back 4 were any good with the ball at their feet, or had the confidence to push out instead of hiding in the 18yrd box then Lucas isn't under constant pressure from all sides?

Maybe if there was good movement up front then players would have found space, creating more opportunities to score and therefore win the game?

To say Lucas was to blame for that performance is stretching it a bit Mick.

That's the funny thing Debs, I saw Lucas pressing in the final 3rd on many an occasion yesterday, winning it back in their half a good few times also. Did I see that from Gerrard, no! Did I see that from Henderson, no! I saw Lucas playing through balls that started our better attacks, did I see anything from Henderson, no! Gerrard did a few passes so comparable there.

I saw Lucas covering at left back on many occasions, I saw him doing the running for our skipper on many occasions, it's unfounded criticism based on the back of a dire result. I'd actually love to see some defensive midfielder comparisons because our lad would come out on top I feel.

The problem may well be not having a duo that are 'mobile' but who's to blame for that, surely the manager for not identifying the problem and buying someone in to compete with Gerrard / Lucas? Who would you prefer playing as a sole defensive midfielder out of the pair? I know Gerrard isn't up to the role on his own, not even close these days, so should this thread really be about Lucas or about our skipper, the system, the manager? Maybe what people really want is for Lucas to become a box-to-box midfielder which we've lost playing Stevie how we do now, well that wont happen, that's for sure. What is obvious, is that without Coutinho our choices in the midfield 3 become painful and that should have been addressed in the Summer because many of us were shouting it from the roof-top and here we are 4 games in suffering for it, that's the truth.

Personally I don't think he is holding us back but having no other 'Lucas' in the squad is maybe a problem.

Put Henderson in beside him and you instantly solve the mobility issue in midfield.

What happens Gerrard then?

Alarmingly, an opponent dribbled past Lucas once every 46.47 minutes last season. To put that into perspective, the average of all 14 players listed above was 98.86 minutes, meaning Lucas was dribbled past over twice as often as the average. Cheick Tiote was dribbled past once every 50.28 minutes, but after him the next most frequently beaten was Ramires on 74.17. The best in the group was Sandro on 177.9, meaning Lucas was dribbled past almost four times as often as his fellow Brazilian.

http://eplindex.com/34672/lucas-lynchpin-stats-compared-to-rival-defensive-midfielders.html (link to full article)   

That's the funny thing Debs, I saw Lucas pressing in the final 3rd on many an occasion yesterday, winning it back in their half a good few times also. Did I see that from Gerrard, no! Did I see that from Henderson, no! I saw Lucas playing through balls that started our better attacks, did I see anything from Henderson, no! Gerrard did a few passes so comparable there.

I saw Lucas covering at left back on many occasions, I saw him doing the running for our skipper on many occasions, it's unfounded criticism based on the back of a dire result. I'd actually love to see some defensive midfielder comparisons because our lad would come out on top I feel.

The problem may well be not having a duo that are 'mobile' but who's to blame for that, surely the manager for not identifying the problem and bso should this thread really be about Lucas or about our skipper, the system, the manager? uying someone in to compete with Gerrard / Lucas? Who would you prefer playing as a sole defensive midfielder out of the pair? I know Gerrard isn't up to the role on his own, not even close these days, Maybe what people really want is for Lucas to become a box-to-box midfielder which we've lost playing Stevie how we do now, well that wont happen, that's for sure. What is obvious, is that without Coutinho our choices in the midfield 3 become painful and that should have been addressed in the Summer because many of us were shouting it from the roof-top and here we are 4 games in suffering for it, that's the truth.

Exactly Luke.  My point being that if everyone was doing their job properly yesterday, the performance wouldn't have been so dire and we might even have won, making this type of thread unnecessary.

The whole thing was a mess from start to finish.  Team selection, formation, tactics and lack of cohesion all contributed to it and all should be blamed.  Not one individual.

We do love scapegoats don't we! Lucas is not the player he was before his injury, but he's still one of our better players and gives his all.
The fact is, glaring holes have not been addressed, is that down to the manager or owners who are totally out of touch. Lucas is not the problem, the manager declared himself happy with the business that was done in the summer, he now has to manage!