Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread

"Bitter" fans like myself, I'm a "symptom" of why the club finds itself where it is, I "don't know where Anfield is", and I might occasionally buy myself a scarf?

Then people wonder why I avoid in depth discussions on Rafa like the plague. Merry Christmas lads, enjoy yourselves.

"Bitter" fans like myself, I'm a "symptom" of why the club finds itself where it is, I "don't know where Anfield is", and I might occasionally buy myself a scarf?

Then people wonder why I avoid in depth discussions on Rafa like the plague. Merry Christmas lads, enjoy yourselves.

Now be fair Mick, it's just easier to avoid discussion with Walton than tar all who still see Rafa in a good light the same way.

I would rather participate in a final wether it's a charity cup or champions League.

You can imagine the haters of Rafa having a field day had Napoli lost.

Well in Boss.

Well seeing as to play in it you need to be league or cup holders......

Since he was sacked from us Rafa has won how many cups?

1 at Chelsea.
2 at Inter.
2 at Napoli.

5, if I'm correct is not bad considering the monies his rivals are given.

"Bitter" fans like myself, I'm a "symptom" of why the club finds itself where it is, I "don't know where Anfield is", and I might occasionally buy myself a scarf?

Then people wonder why I avoid in depth discussions on Rafa like the plague. Merry Christmas lads, enjoy yourselves.

No point arguing with the pro Rafa brigade, he could get the sack twice more at different clubs and they would still argue black is white.

No point arguing with the pro Rafa brigade, he could get the sack twice more at different clubs and they would still argue black is white.

He could also win even more cups and be employed by even more top clubs and people would still argue that white is black

The world club championship thing is an interesting one. It's been held annually since 2005, and in reality it's a bit of a shoo in for all the European teams. So much so that since it's inauguration as an annual event, the winners of the European section has only failed to win it twice.

The world club championship thing is an interesting one. It's been held annually since 2005, and in reality it's a bit of a shoo in for all the European teams. So much so that since it's inauguration as an annual event, the winners of the European section has only failed to win it twice.

See what you did there Mick 

The world club championship thing is an interesting one. It's been held annually since 2005, and in reality it's a bit of a shoo in for all the European teams. So much so that since it's inauguration as an annual event, the winners of the European section has only failed to win it twice.

I know what you mean, Rafa is an enigma that splits people, I mean he went to Valencia inheriting a very strong side and only adding Mista to the line up, you could say he worked wonders with someone else's team....

He comes here and the squad he won the CL with what was basically Houlliers team our own Carra says Houlliers was the best coach he worked with and that Rafa was inheriting a very good side however he did add Alonso, it was just the other rubbish that got him the sack...

He then got the sack from international

He the goes to Chelsea inherits such a good side a no mark with no experience won the champions league with and failed to match him..

I think it would be a step backwards for the club.

See what you did there Mick 

Haha it was a bit of a starter for ten wasn't it Jon. Point being though that to hail it as a "trophy won" when the manager concerned wasn't involved with winning the Champions League the previous season to get the club into it, and to beat a team from the democratic republic of Congo in the final, is stretching the "success" point a bit. Equally IMHO, winning the Italian "super cup" in Doha of all places during the Italian off season is hardly ripping it up.

As I've said many times, Benitez is a good manager and I've have no complaints about him being appointed manager of Liverpool again, in many ways it would be a good thing. To hail his record since he left Liverpool though as incredible is to fly in the face of reality. At Inter he took over the reigning European Champions (hence why they won the world club cup thingy) and previously five times consecutive winners of the Italian League. To hear many on the forums he was about to embark on a period of World domination unseen since Fu Man Chu, only for it all to unravel within a few months as Inter slumped in all competitions. Rafa and Inter "agree to go their separate ways" but the tenure cannot surely be viewed as successful, however we dress it up.

At Chelsea Benitez took over a team which was lying third in the league a couple of points off the top, and they finished third in the league and further off the top. They were beaten over two legs in the semi finals of the Carling Cup by Swansea when it looked as if they were absolute certainties to win it, but did win the Europa League. They were already as good as out of the Champions League before Benitez got there, and I think on the whole he did a pretty good job at Chelsea under very difficult circumstances.

At Napoli Benitez took over a team which had finished second in the league the season before. In his first season they finished third and significantly further adrift of the top, before this season failing to qualify for the Champions League after being knocked out by Bilbao, and are currently a mile off the top in the league again. They DID though win the Italian cup in his first season, and then this Doha thingy. I think the job he's doing there so far is probably somewhere between Chelsea where he probably did best, and Inter where he probably did worst.

All in all though it's nowhere near the glittering record that some try and make out. By all means respect Benitez, by all means love him, by all means want him back, but there's no need to talk bollocks about his record. Not for me anyway. Happy Christmas everyone BTW       

The world club championship thing is an interesting one. It's been held annually since 2005, and in reality it's a bit of a shoo in for all the European teams. So much so that since it's inauguration as an annual event, the winners of the European section has only failed to win it twice.

Obvious Rafa dig is obvious,
but true.

Mick's summary is spot on for me. Good manager, good man, and I imagine he will return at some point in the future, but I do think we have to keep his record in perspective. It hasn't been one long period of success after another, with no blips in between. It's been a mixture of great achievements, reasonable successes and periods where there have been serious and sustained doubts. At Napoli he is currently doing an OK job; at Chelsea he did a slightly better job (in very difficult circumstances) and at Inter things were frankly a disaster.

One other thing that I find out of keeping with the history of this club is the way that people chalk up successes to Rafa, as if they were his and his alone. I noticed earlier it was 'Rafa beating Juventus', rather than his team. I don't think even Rafa himself would say 'I beat Juventus'.

The Inter one is a funny one.
He inherited an aging team that didn't really do much training under mourinho, and suddenly when they had to got a shitload of injuries.
He also had them playing the best football inter fans had seen in years.
Then, just as the Liverpool job opens up, he goes on to the press about "broken promises" by the Inter president, which was all a bit convenient.

Great tactician who perhaps needed to become a better man manager.

Rafa will always be remembered fondly, for being in charge of the side, that come back from half time to lift the Champion's League cup against all odds. I think that night alone will always stay in the memory fo all Reds' fans all over the world.

The Inter one is a funny one.
He inherited an aging team that didn't really do much training under mourinho, and suddenly when they had to got a shitload of injuries.
He also had them playing the best football inter fans had seen in years.
Then, just as the Liverpool job opens up, he goes on to the press about "broken promises" by the Inter president, which was all a bit convenient.

Great tactician who perhaps needed to become a better man manager.

You are joking right, many quotes from many a world class player that Mourhino trains his side harder than any coach out there, slatan, Terry and lampard to name a few, in fact Chelsea players went on record saying they under trained with managers who came after Mourhino. Don't try and give that as an excuse for Rafas failings.

You are joking right, many quotes from many a world class player that Mourhino trains his side harder than any coach out there, slatan, Terry and lampard to name a few, in fact Chelsea players went on record saying they under trained with managers who came after Mourhino. Don't try and give that as an excuse for Rafas failings.

No, I'm not joking.
The inter players are on record saying that very thing.
During the season they won the CL, they mostly did just gym work and tactical work.

No, I'm not joking.
The inter players are on record saying that very thing.
During the season they won the CL, they mostly did just gym work and tactical work.

You are wrong Zlatan says he worked them hard, the reason the Madrid players hated Mourhino was for that reason. He has never changed his methods and many a player bombed out of Inter who would  not train as he liked.

You are wrong Zlatan says he worked them hard, the reason the Madrid players hated Mourhino was for that reason. He has never changed his methods and many a player bombed out of Inter who would  not train as he liked.

I really don't give a F**k what you think, and I have no idea why I'm answering someone on ignore, but let me spell it out for you again.

This came from the Inter players, who were "shocked" when they had to start training hard again when Benitez came in.
A good manager adjusts his methods, especially when his best players are old.
That's what mourinho did, as stated by the players who were there at the time.

Crack on, I won't be replying again.

I really don't give a f**k what you think, and I have no idea why I'm answering someone on ignore, but let me spell it out for you again.

This came from the Inter players, who were "shocked" when they had to start training hard again when Benitez came in.
A good manager adjusts his methods, especially when his best players are old.
That's what mourinho did, as stated by the players who were there at the time.

Crack on, I won't be replying again.

I think you make a lot of things up to support your points, I will just finish with this actual quote from Mourhino when asked if he would change his methods at Madrid.

Plus how can you answer me when I'm on ignore, it's shab world.

“I am Jose Mourinho and I don’t change. I arrive with all my qualities and my defects.” – When he was unveiled as the new Real Madrid manager

The world club championship thing is an interesting one. It's been held annually since 2005, and in reality it's a bit of a shoo in for all the European teams. So much so that since it's inauguration as an annual event, the winners of the European section has only failed to win it twice.

Clearly forgotten about the 3 goals we had disallowed in that final then, that should have stood.

Clearly forgotten about the 3 goals we had disallowed in that final then, that should have stood.

I wouldn't go as far as saying "forgotten" about it, but I can't recall it with as much clarity as yourself I'll admit that. In the midst of these debates on how we did in matches I always go from memory only, and I DO recall us dominating the game. I also recall being p!ssed off pre-match as we rotated a couple of important players but I can't remember who they were now (Crouch maybe?), or was that another game I don't know. I never really did give it much importance to be totally honest, even when we were in it (once you're actually there you may as well win it as it's a gimme, but anyway). Given the European teams have all the best players from around the world in their teams, it's like a I say been a bit of a formality in any case and a bit of a non event. Whoever wins the champions league is a bit of a shoo in and so it's proved on all but two occasions in the last 10 years or so.

Nine times out of ten though in any final you can make a case for the team which gets beat being a bit unlucky. When you win a final on penalties for example (as we have for our last three trophies) you can hardly claim to have been decisive winners, but nobody cares in the end. Just like it's a "facht" that we won the champions League under Rafa though, it's also true that we lost against whoever the f*** it was in the world club final championship thingy.

I wouldn't go as far as saying "forgotten" about it, but I can't recall it with as much clarity as yourself I'll admit that. In the midst of these debates on how we did in matches I always go from memory only, and I DO recall us dominating the game. I also recall being p!ssed off pre-match as we rotated a couple of important players but I can't remember who they were now (Crouch maybe?), or was that another game I don't know. I never really did give it much importance to be totally honest, even when we were in it (once you're actually there you may as well win it as it's a gimme, but anyway). Given the European teams have all the best players from around the world in their teams, it's like a I say been a bit of a formality in any case and a bit of a non event. Whoever wins the champions league is a bit of a shoo in and so it's proved on all but two occasions in the last 10 years or so.

Nine times out of ten though in any final you can make a case for the team which gets beat being a bit unlucky. When you win a final on penalties for example (as we have for our last three trophies) you can hardly claim to have been decisive winners, but nobody cares in the end. Just like it's a "facht" that we won the champions League under Rafa though, it's also true that we lost against whoever the f*** it was in the world club final championship thingy.

Fact mick in la liga only 2 teams outside of real and barcelona have won in the last 15 years and one of those teams won twice... Fluke?

In liverpool fc we got to the UCL final twice and semi twice and quarter once in 6 years. A points record in the league losing only twice... Against the biggest spending teams in history to that point. Oh and the fa cup and number one team in Europe.

Inter played over 70 games on the previous season, plus a World Cup, a world club cup and with an ageing squad bought only 2 players in rafas tenure an 18 year old coutinho and a french youngster. His argument with Cambiasso and moratti did for him but you have to feel for the man after what he had just been through with H&G at lfc. Unlike your man Mourinho who bought eto, Lucio, Sneider, Motta and Milito in 1 transfer window.

To say he had mixed results at chelsea is laughable. With napoli he will have to topple a dominant juventus team. Of course Mourinho could do it provided napoli got bought out by bill gates and he spent 1 billion.

But carry on mick don't let fachts get in the way

I'm not going to get into Mourinho as well mate, I'm already breaking a habit of a lifetime by discussing Rafa. FWIW I think Mourinho's reputation of simply buying his way to success isn't borne out by the facts, but that's for another thread and another time.

As for Rafa and his record. It's worth noting (just for context) that the Valencia team he took over had reached the previosu two champions League finals, they were hardly mugs. Equally, from memory again (I'll leave it to others to check) it was the first time BOTH Madrid and Barcelona finished outside the top two for God knows how long (I think Deportivo were second in the first year Valencia won it). That's not to say it wasn't a good achievment to win La Liga with Valencia, of course it was. 

That's what got him the job at Liverpool, that and winning the UEFA Cup with Valencia too as I recall (while someone else was winning the Champions League following a UEFA Cup the previous season). On his arrival at Liverpool he took over a fairly average team in my opinion, but with some good players. He did an excellent job over the next couple of seasons with some shrewd buys and excellent organisation. It was at that time a shoo in for the big four (as they were then) to at least qualify for the Champions League, and such was the dominance of English football that getting out of the group was almost a given too. There were a couple of seasons there where English clubs filled three of the four semi final slots, and we gorged ourselves at the table even more than our contempories. During that period we won a Champions League final we had no right to win, lost one which we ought to have won, and got close a couple of times too. We also won an FA Cup and all looked rosy. The last four seasons though didn't yield any trophies and Rafa left by "mutual consent". I think he did a pretty decent job at Liverpool on the whole.

His efforts since then I've already commented on.