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      The Question: Is 4-2-1-3 the future?

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      KennyIsKing
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      The Question: Is 4-2-1-3 the future?
      Aug 04, 2010 08:21:22 pm
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      Evolution never stops. As the World Cup showed, 4‑2‑3‑1 has come to replace 4‑4‑2 as the universal default (18 of the 32 teams played some form of 4‑2‑3‑1 at some stage, with another three fielding a 4‑4‑2 that perhaps should have become 4‑2‑3‑1) so the system at the very highest level has already begun to mutate. Spain, by the end of the World Cup, had followed what Barcelona did at times last season, what Arsenal seemed to be reaching towards, and set up in a 4‑2‑1‑3.

      Now clearly the distinction between 4‑2‑3‑1 and 4‑2‑1‑3 is minimal. It entails nothing more than the central player in the trident pulling a little deeper and the two wide players advancing slightly. In practice, as the wide players look to escape the attentions of full-backs, their depth of position may not alter greatly, but to refer to the system as 4‑2‑1‑2‑1 and start introducing a fifth band is probably to begin to confuse the simplicity that gives value to the practice of assigning numerical codes. The shape, if anything, resembles a diamond sitting on a plinth. As I've said before, the designations are of course crude, but they have a use in providing a broad explicatory template.



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      The Question: Is 4-2-1-3 the future?

      Although little different from 4-2-3-1, it is significant if the central creator plays deeper, for a whole number of reasons

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      Spain's striker David Villa David Villa, a more natural forward, can then be played in a wide position. Photograph: Christophe Simon/AFP/Getty Images

      Evolution never stops. As the World Cup showed, 4‑2‑3‑1 has come to replace 4‑4‑2 as the universal default (18 of the 32 teams played some form of 4‑2‑3‑1 at some stage, with another three fielding a 4‑4‑2 that perhaps should have become 4‑2‑3‑1) so the system at the very highest level has already begun to mutate. Spain, by the end of the World Cup, had followed what Barcelona did at times last season, what Arsenal seemed to be reaching towards, and set up in a 4‑2‑1‑3.

      Now clearly the distinction between 4‑2‑3‑1 and 4‑2‑1‑3 is minimal. It entails nothing more than the central player in the trident pulling a little deeper and the two wide players advancing slightly. In practice, as the wide players look to escape the attentions of full-backs, their depth of position may not alter greatly, but to refer to the system as 4‑2‑1‑2‑1 and start introducing a fifth band is probably to begin to confuse the simplicity that gives value to the practice of assigning numerical codes. The shape, if anything, resembles a diamond sitting on a plinth. As I've said before, the designations are of course crude, but they have a use in providing a broad explicatory template.
      The key differences in the formations

      Yet it is significant if that central creator plays deeper, for a whole number of reasons. To begin with, if the playmaker operates close to the holding pair, the team cannot be "broken" into attacking and defensive sections as Holland and Argentina were at the World Cup (which is an advantage for those sides that believe in a possession-based approach). By definition, by being only a short pass away from the creator, the two midfield holders are more involved in the attacking aspect and at least one of them can be encouraged to press forwards at times, as Xabi Alonso did for Spain, and as Seydou Keita does for Barcelona. So immediately the range of attacking options is increased.

      There is also an impact on the creator himself. Playing a touch deeper offers him three advantages. He is nearer the two holding players, who can be considered his protectors, which makes it harder physically to intimidate him, while his more withdrawn position means he is farther from the opposing holding midfielders, harder to pick up and thus likely to have more time on the ball (not that Xavi or Cesc FΓ‘bregas really needs more time on the ball; one of the joys of watching Spain or Barcelona recently, or Holland or West Germany of the 70s, is their willingness to give the ball to a man under pressure, trusting his technique to release it and change the angle of attack).

      The creator is also more likely to receive the ball facing goal – or at least to have time to turn so he is facing goal – with three team-mates ahead of him (as opposed to one ahead and two alongside) and the potential of others breaking from deep, and so he becomes something more like an old-fashioned playmaker than a second striker who tends to receive the ball with his back to goal. That, in theory, should make the transfer of ball from back to front quicker and thus make a side more penetrative (the example of Chile's 3‑3‑1‑3 at the World Cup suggested that leaving players perpetually high up the pitch helps in terms of pressing and regaining the ball quickly, but can lead to the retention of possession at the expense of penetration). As Juan RomΓ‘n Riquelme points out, a playmaker is only effective if he has players available for whom to make the play.

      Which teams have adopted this tactic?

      Just as significant, though, is the effect withdrawing the central creator has on the two wide forwards. Rather than having to stay wide to offer a passing option and so as not to intrude on the central player's space, they can drift infield, as Pedro and AndrΓ©s Iniesta did regularly for Spain, and as both and Lionel Messi do for Barcelona. That draws them away from the full-back into more awkward areas, and opens space on the overlap for attacking full-backs, who are liberated by the presence of four essentially defensive central players (two centre-backs and two holding midfielders), plus the creator, who can tuck in if necessary.

      If Iniesta is included on the left, Messi on the right and Xavi in the middle, Barcelona effectively have a trident of playmakers, all able to interchange and all operating in positions that drag opponents out of their comfortable lines. Or, a more natural forward can be played in one of the wide positions – David Villa, perhaps, with Zlatan Ibrahimovic as the centre-forward – which offers effectively two playmakers (one of whom, Messi, is devastating as a forward anyway), with a central striker adept with his back to goal, and a forward, one of the best finishers in the world, cutting in from the left, able to take advantage of the space available on the diagonal. And all that with Dani Alves and Maxwell overlapping from full-back.

      Although Arsenal seem likely to attempt something similar this season, with FΓ‘bregas in the Xavi role, backed up by Abou Diaby and Alex Song, Andrei Arshavin and Robin van Persie wide, and Marouane Chamakh offering some muscle at centre-forward, it may prove a formation of limited application, purely because the demands on the playmaker are so great: he must combine the ability to see and execute with at least some of the physicality of a central midfielder, even with two protectors. But when a team has a player like that, 4‑2‑1‑3 may be the way to get the best out of him.

      A VERY interesting article and one which contains a lot of sense, especially given some of the systems used at the WC.

      For me, the key to this is the part about the opposition being unable to break the link between defense and attack, and shows how football evolves, even when we think we have seen pretty much every system.

      If we look at last seasons style of play, and then add in Cole on the left, with Maxi on the right, and Gerrard dropping deeper, it's pretty easy to see the benefits of tihs system.

      I sometimes long for the old days of the relatively simple 442 - but to be fair, those days are gone, and managers and players alike have to move with the times.

      As the article says, the difference is subtle, and for quite a lot of games, Aquilani could be used in one of the 2 "holding" roles (except he wouldn't be holding) and the formation would become 4123, at other times a more rigid/disciplined approach may be the order of the day, and a 4213/4231 would come into play.

      442 is quite simply unable to deal with these modern formations, if it's played in the English style with 2 rigid banks of four - there is simply far too much scope for players to get "between the lines" as we saw when England played Germany in the WC.

      Gone too with these new (ish) formations is the traditional role of the box to box midfielder - we now live in an age of specialist players who excel at a particular role.

      I'm somewhat saddened by this, as one of the joys of watching football, for me, has always been a truly good/great box to box player marauding through the centre - but times change.

      What used to be the engine room, is now a tactical battlefield, more like chess than football as I grew up with it.

      The question is, is it an improvement?

      I believe it is - I love the tactical side of the game, and the way certain players use space as an offensive tool, making decoy runs, or drifting around on the periphery in order to try and pull the opposition out of shape.

      Of course many will not agree - but the question is, how would the ever increasing sophistication and coaching methods currently being used be combatted by anything other than doing the same?
      Witto
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      Re: The Question: Is 4-2-1-3 the future?
      Reply #1: Aug 04, 2010 08:27:37 pm
      I'd rather Roy be the judge of that.

      4-4-2 isn't in the old days, there's just to many clubs now with complicating formations and tactics - bit like Rafa.

      I'd rather Roy just put a team out, told them what there jobs are and let them be free on the pitch, rather than giving them limited options.

      To answer the question, I just want to see how Roy's formations work out before I make a judgement of whether we should use this.
      KennyIsKing
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      Re: The Question: Is 4-2-1-3 the future?
      Reply #2: Aug 04, 2010 08:33:22 pm
      I'd rather Roy be the judge of that.

      4-4-2 isn't in the old days, there's just to many clubs now with complicating formations and tactics - bit like Rafa.

      I'd rather Roy just put a team out, told them what there jobs are and let them be free on the pitch, rather than giving them limited options.

      To answer the question, I just want to see how Roy's formations work out before I make a judgement of whether we should use this.

      To be fair, I wasn't talking about hodge, but about teams in general - the most succesfull teams haven't used 442 for quite a while now, and IMO if we go down that route we'll end up in the same place as last season.

      Tactical awareness and players with game intelligence arethe key to modern football, and 442 just doesn't cut it anymore.

      442 might be OK for a sunday morning, but at the top levels, it's light years behind.
      Brian78
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      Re: The Question: Is 4-2-1-3 the future?
      Reply #3: Aug 04, 2010 08:51:32 pm
      We actually would have a team very comfortable in that formation. Kuyt and Jovanovich would slot easily in to the 2 wide places in a front 3 with Torres in the centre. Id say Joe Cole would the roles with ease also but he could be the 1. Stevie and Aqua in the centre

                                    Reina

      Kelly/Johnson   Carra/Agger/skrtel/ayala/Wilson/sotis     Aurelio/Insua

                         Stevie Aqua/Lucas Shelvey

                                  Cole/Pacheco

      Kuyt                         Torres                        Jovanovich/Babel
      vitez
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      Re: The Question: Is 4-2-1-3 the future?
      Reply #4: Aug 04, 2010 08:53:39 pm
      Read that earlier, I found it very interesting too.  That being said though I personally think the 4-2-1-3 is too reliant on amazing personnel and is probably a little too attack-minded for my liking (note the attack-minded part is purely personal choice, I myself like a balance of offence and defence).  I could however see it being used to full effect by teams with the resources to do so, I think it's bound to fail without the right players and strength in depth.  I'm of the opinion that the 4-1-2-3 is superior in terms of risk to reward effect.
      KennyIsKing
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      Re: The Question: Is 4-2-1-3 the future?
      Reply #5: Aug 04, 2010 08:57:39 pm
      Read that earlier, I found it very interesting too.  That being said though I personally think the 4-2-1-3 is too reliant on amazing personnel and is probably a little too attack-minded for my liking (note the attack-minded part is purely personal choice, I myself like a balance of offence and defence).  I could however see it being used to full effect by teams with the resources to do so, I think it's bound to fail without the right players and strength in depth.  I'm of the opinion that the 4-1-2-3 is superior in terms of risk to reward effect.

      Risk to reward is a great way of putting it - sums it up pretty well IMO.
      billythered
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      Re: The Question: Is 4-2-1-3 the future?
      Reply #6: Aug 04, 2010 09:17:20 pm
      A very interesting topic indeed, and yeah i suppose when you look at today's modern game to that of yesteryear then football as a whole has moved on and you could say that its a totally different game of that in the seventies lets say, For instance in todays version of football the art of the tackle is almost outlawed by the idiots running the game, nobody wants to see their favourite player sidelined after some knuckle dragging buffoon decides to tackle from behind waist high but at the same time we still want to see the rough and tumble after all it is supposed to be a contact sport, As for formations though they are bound to change with the times also, whatever combinations used whether it be 4-2-1-3 or 4-2-3-1 both systems do need a specialist in that role where they will be free to mauraud from midfield to the front third Gerrard 5 yrs ago would be a perfect example full of gusto and energy and not afraid to put a tackle in that stops the opposition in their tracks, Not only that be able to deliver that killer pass, Alonso would have been another candidate in that role, So that leaves the question who is our specialist, Would Shelvey fit the bill or can dare i say Lucas( nah he cant pass) who do you think can do this new role, if we do go down that route, Will be interested in other posters views on this.
      StevieG-force
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      Re: The Question: Is 4-2-1-3 the future?
      Reply #7: Aug 05, 2010 12:47:34 am
      As It's been said this thread is very interesting, most die hard fans can talk for hours on tactics and the development of the formation we're talking about seems to be the biggest debate about tactics in world football at the moment.

      Remember years ago 4-5-1 seemed to be the negative formation to play (especially in England) as opposed to 4-4-2 but now since almost every team is trying to emulate the way Barca and Spain play we've got the sort of 4-2-1-3 variation. Of course there is more than one way to play the game and this doesn't necessarily mean the extinction of 4-4-2, it can still be implemented properly with the right players of course.

      But naturally this formation seems to encourage a lot more creative freedom and more fluid play as well as making it easier to play the dominating possession play that Spain played so beautifully. I think the dying art of the box to box midfielder was happening anyway despite the growth in popularity of this formation it seems to me whenever a normal central midfielder displays the capability of being able to attack and defend they end up getting pushed further up the field anyway to a sort of attacking midfield role.

      Then there's also what you said about a managers approach, I think you have to assert a tactical philosophy to some degree, keeping tactics simple is fine, using "the kevin keegan approach" can obviously work but it seems a pretty single minded approach to me, as well as not being very versatile, if you tell your players to just go out and play and then things don't go your way, you have to be able to implement some kind of change in tactics I would've thought?
      RedWilly
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      Re: The Question: Is 4-2-1-3 the future?
      Reply #8: Aug 05, 2010 01:47:44 am
      Germany managed to perform this system brilliantly when on the counter. Ozil would pick up the ball, and the wide men (Muller and Podolski) would set off, making the exact same run, at the exact same angle. Which drags both full backs away, leaving one of the centre backs to come to Ozil, which in turn left Klose on the shoulder of the last defender.

      Watch a few clips, and you will see exactly what I'm talking about. However, the system worked so well, due to the space on a counter attack, so the way to stop it, would be to not be so committed going forward. It's a win win for the Germans really. Or it was up until they went out ;)
      carheex
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      Re: The Question: Is 4-2-1-3 the future?
      Reply #9: Aug 05, 2010 10:11:29 am
      I don't see how 4-2-1-3 makes any difference. If both teams play the same formation then the only differential is the quality of players involved. The same applies to 4-4-2, 3-5-2, 3-6-1 or any other numeric conundrum.
      racerx34
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      Re: The Question: Is 4-2-1-3 the future?
      Reply #10: Aug 05, 2010 10:53:05 am
      Given that a lot of the talent coming through our ranks is wide/forward players, a 4-2-1-3 system could work very well for us in the future... Especially when you look at where in the team the likes of Pacheco and Suso will slot into place

      Allowing a mix of current and youth players might allow us the following.

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      Johnson Skrtel Agger Robinson

        Lucas/Shelvey Gerrard

                   Cole/Aquilani

      Amoo/Eccleston           Suso/Pacheco
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      brezipool
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      Re: The Question: Is 4-2-1-3 the future?
      Reply #11: Aug 05, 2010 12:20:30 pm
      3-5-2 !

      Always loved that formation.

      or a simple 4-3-3.
      xBooniex
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      Re: The Question: Is 4-2-1-3 the future?
      Reply #12: Aug 05, 2010 01:59:19 pm
      I still like 4-4-2 gives good balance everywhere
      Junior_Red
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      Re: The Question: Is 4-2-1-3 the future?
      Reply #13: Aug 05, 2010 02:07:51 pm
      GK
      RB - CB - CB - LB
      DM
      RCM - LCM
      RW - - ST - - LW

      A simple 433 in my opinion is the best formation, but I would only play this for Liverpool if we could keep Mascherano. As I don't see anyone in our squad who can play the DM role as well as him.
      fletch_rox
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      Re: The Question: Is 4-2-1-3 the future?
      Reply #14: Aug 05, 2010 02:13:38 pm
      I think this formation is utterly dependant on the two wide men in the 3. They have got to stay wide and attack to full backs allowing the 1 to run at the centre backs. I think if Liverpool implemented this formation, it would mean we need two natural wingers, a left footer and a right footer (Jovanovich and ?) who could deliver quality when needed.

      carheex
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      Re: The Question: Is 4-2-1-3 the future?
      Reply #15: Aug 05, 2010 06:17:49 pm
      I think this formation is utterly dependant on the two wide men in the 3. They have got to stay wide and attack to full backs allowing the 1 to run at the centre backs. I think if Liverpool implemented this formation, it would mean we need two natural wingers, a left footer and a right footer (Jovanovich and ?) who could deliver quality when needed.


      Jovanovich ain't a natural winger.

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