What to do with Stevie G?

On occasion doesn't really cut it at the highest level though, does it?

He plays by instinct when he's most effective, and that's why he needs a free-er role than CM - in other words, on the right or behind the striker.

If you think Sacchi is wrong, explain why - and back that up with your credentials, which need to be at least as impressive as his, not to mention Rafa and KK who both play him in a free role.

Playing him in a fee role doesn't mean they think he's crap, or even our worst option at CM/DM where they've also played him. There aren't two levels in football, "great" and useless.

Gerrard can play a disciplined game in midfield, or even as a fullback. That we don't get the best out him in those positions doesn't mean he's useless and automatically worse than the alternative. The man isn't mentally defective the way some people go on about it. He's tactically aware enough to do a job. He just won't be creating as many chances or really playing to his strengths.

Playing him in a fee role doesn't mean they think he's crap, or even our worst option at CM/DM where they've also played him. There aren't two levels in football, "great" and useless.

Gerrard can play a disciplined game in midfield, or even as a fullback. That we don't get the best out him in those positions doesn't mean he's useless and automatically worse than the alternative. The man isn't mentally defective the way some people go on about it. He's tactically aware enough to do a job. He just won't be creating as many chances or really playing to his strengths.

But that's the whole point - you put your best players where they can do most damage to the opposition, and still contribute to the team dynamic.

In a more free role, he's one of the best in the world - in a CM/DM role he isn't and that's the core of Sacchi's argument.

On occasion doesn't really cut it at the highest level though, does it?

He plays by instinct when he's most effective, and that's why he needs a free-er role than CM - in other words, on the right or behind the striker.

If you think Sacchi is wrong, explain why - and back that up with your credentials, which need to be at least as impressive as his, not to mention Rafa and KK who both play him in a free role.

Are you telling me that Sacchi is never wrong KennyisKing?.

What to do with Stevie G? Ask him what he wants and let him do it - he should know better than anyone where he feels he is best effective for us. Lets face it he is a legend and he is our general and generals make decisions.

Are you telling me that Sacchi is never wrong KennyisKing?.

No, I'm saying that he has forgotten more about football than we will ever know.

I'm saying that we need to read and analyse his words, and judge them dispassionately and without bias.

I know exactly what he means about Gerrard, as, seemingly, do Rafa and KK - which doesn't mean I see myself at their exalted level, but it is telling that so many managers do not play him in CM, including many england managers.

Do you think these extremely knowledgeable men are all wrong and you are right? ( I don't include myself in that of course, )

Anyone else think this will be our team this season,

                    Renia

       Skrtel    Carragher   Agger

Kelly                                  Johnson

        Gerrard   Lucas   Meireles

                     Suarez

                     Carroll

To me that's a very good team.

No, I'm saying that he has forgotten more about football than we will ever know.

I'm saying that we need to read and analyse his words, and judge them dispassionately and without bias.

I know exactly what he means about Gerrard, as, seemingly, do Rafa and KK - which doesn't mean I see myself at their exalted level, but it is telling that so many managers do not play him in CM, including many england managers.

Do you think these extremely knowledgeable men are all wrong and you are right? ( I don't include myself in that of course, )

I know exactly what he means about Gerrard, as, seemingly, do Rafa and KK - which doesn't mean I see myself at their exalted level, but it is telling that so many managers do not play him in CM, including many england managers.

It's too early to say where Kenny Dalglish will play Gerrard yet so that's a bit presumptuous if you ask my opinion, once Suarez and Carroll are fit and form their partnership then we will truly see where Kenny feels he is best suited.

Rafa had to play Gerrard off Torres when we had Alonso and Masch, that was a no brainer really, once Alonso left Rafa was so determined to keep the partnership of Torres and Gerrard it was to the detriment of the side as his constant choice of 2 defensive midfileders proved. And lets be honest here, Rafa was hardly the best judge of any players position either.

As for Sacchi, he never managed Gerrard or worked with him so his opinion is no more valid than mine really. Just because he won one Serie A title and 2 European Cups and the Italian FA cup once ( yes, I know about the Intercontinental Cups and one off Cups) it doesn't exactly put him in the same league as Paisley now, does it?.

I have a lot of respect for Sacchi but it doesn't mean he was right about Gerrard. Listen to how Kenny talks of Gerrard, I'd value his opinion of Gerrard a lot more valid than that of Sacchi.

We have different groundings in football KiK. You seem obsessed with the Sacchi philosophy, your obsession with Rafa and his circulation football. I can tell from your posts that you value technical football a lot and you have been heavily influenced by foreign coaches and that is great for you.

I've only ever believed in one philosophy, the philosophy of Liverpool Football Club. Pass and move. Foreigners seem to over analyse the game and make something simple oh so complicated. The football I witnessed first hand when I was growing up was the best football I have ever seen. I have honestly never seen another team ever play like that since, the way it should be played. That style of football will be brought back to us through the philosophy that Kenny was taught, played by and still lives by to this very day.

If I had to choose betweeen Rafa and Kenny, it would be Kenny every single time. While Rafa was a great manager in his time with us, his style of football was not the same style of football associated with Liverpool Football Club, neither was Sacchi's style. Pass and move is our style, the style that we made famous, the style that won us league titles and European Cups galore.

It doesn't have to be fancy football to look good.

Perhaps he may take note of the LEGENDARY coach, Arrigo Sacchi?

Quote - “When I was director of football at Real Madrid I had to evaluate the players coming through the youth ranks. We had some who were very good footballers. They had technique, they had athleticism, they had drive, they were hungry.

"But they lacked what I call knowing-how-to-play-football. They lacked decision making. They lacked positioning. They didn't have the subtle sensitivity of football: how a player should move within the collective. And for many, I wasn't sure they were going to learn".

“You see, strength, passion, technique, athleticism, all of these are very important. But they are a means to an end, not an end in itself. They help you reach your goal, which is putting your talent at the service of the team and, by doing this, making both of you and the team greater.

"In situations like that, I just have to say, Gerrard's a great footballer, but perhaps not a great player."

Quoted from an interview he gave to the telegraph

His instinctive style means moments of pure genius but also means he follows the ball rather a lot, and in a 442, the 2 CM need to be very disciplined.

So, with that said, if you disagree with Sacchi's assessment, drop him a line and explain to a footballing legend why you are right and he is wrong.

If Sacchi was to take that newspaper into Kenny's office and Kenny read it, he would laugh his cock off, tell Sacchi to F**k off, roll the newspaper up, stick it up Sacchi's arse and set fire to it!.

I know exactly what he means about Gerrard, as, seemingly, do Rafa and KK - which doesn't mean I see myself at their exalted level, but it is telling that so many managers do not play him in CM, including many england managers.

It's too early to say where Kenny Dalglish will play Gerrard yet so that's a bit presumptuous if you ask my opinion, once Suarez and Carroll are fit and form their partnership then we will truly see where Kenny feels he is best suited.

Rafa had to play Gerrard off Torres when we had Alonso and Masch, that was a no brainer really, once Alonso left Rafa was so determined to keep the partnership of Torres and Gerrard it was to the detriment of the side as his constant choice of 2 defensive midfileders proved. And lets be honest here, Rafa was hardly the best judge of any players position either.

As for Sacchi, he never managed Gerrard or worked with him so his opinion is no more valid than mine really. Just because he won one Serie A title and 2 European Cups and the Italian FA cup once ( yes, I know about the Intercontinental Cups and one off Cups) it doesn't exactly put him in the same league as Paisley now, does it?.

I have a lot of respect for Sacchi but it doesn't mean he was right about Gerrard. Listen to how Kenny talks of Gerrard, I'd value his opinion of Gerrard a lot more valid than that of Sacchi.

We have different groundings in football KiK. You seem obsessed with the Sacchi philosophy, your obsession with Rafa and his circulation football. I can tell from your posts that you value technical football a lot and you have been heavily influenced by foreign coaches and that is great for you.

I've only ever believed in one philosophy, the philosophy of Liverpool Football Club. Pass and move. Foreigners seem to over analyse the game and make something simple oh so complicated. The football I witnessed first hand when I was growing up was the best football I have ever seen. I have honestly never seen another team ever play like that since, the way it should be played. That style of football will be brought back to us through the philosophy that Kenny was taught, played by and still lives by to this very day.

If I had to choose betweeen Rafa and Kenny, it would be Kenny every single time. While Rafa was a great manager in his time with us, his style of football was not the same style of football associated with Liverpool Football Club, neither was Sacchi's style. Pass and move is our style, the style that we made famous, the style that won us league titles and European Cups galore.

It doesn't have to be fancy football to look good.

But mate - pass and move IS circulation football.

yes, it may be over analysed at times, but the whole reason I love the philosophy of Michels and Sacchi is that it echoes the philosophy of shanks and paisley!

I love Gerrard as a player, and I think the team should be built around him - but he is a flawed genius, and doesn't always see what's around him in a team sense.
Building the team around him, whether he is playing out wide or in the centre, further forwards would be a good step forwards - but I will never accept that he can play in the CM unless he has others to cover for him when he goes walkabout.

I'm not going to respond to your second post, because it implies a relationship with KK that I don't think you have - an opinion, yes, but let's not get that mixed up with fact.

But mate - pass and move IS circulation football.

yes, it may be over analysed at times, but the whole reason I love the philosophy of Michels and Sacchi is that it echoes the philosophy of shanks and paisley!

I love Gerrard as a player, and I think the team should be built around him - but he is a flawed genius, and doesn't always see what's around him in a team sense.
Building the team around him, whether he is playing out wide or in the centre, further forwards would be a good step forwards - but I will never accept that he can play in the CM unless he has others to cover for him when he goes walkabout.

I'm not going to respond to your second post, because it implies a relationship with KK that I don't think you have - an opinion, yes, but let's not get that mixed up with fact.

I think you misinterpreted my post there mate. I meant the circulation football you attributed to Rafa but it was the reference to Sacchi's  philosophies that Rafa tried to emulate that i was getting at, the system was way too rigid. You brought it up in the Lucas Leiva thread a while back.

I remember us discussing it as i hated the system because it stripped players of their natural abilities, something which goes very much against the philosophy of both Shankly and Paisley, whereas Michel's 'total football' philosophy was similar to ours.


I'm not going to respond to your second post, because it implies a relationship with KK that I don't think you have - an opinion, yes, but let's not get that mixed up with fact.

I'm just saying that if anyone told Kenny that Gerrard was not a great player he'd F***ing laugh at them and then probably chin them.

I think you misinterpreted my post there mate. I meant the circulation football you attributed to Rafa but it was the reference to Sacchi's  philosophies that Rafa tried to emulate that i was getting at, the system was way too rigid. You brought it up in the Lucas Leiva thread a while back.

I remember us discussing it as i hated the system because it stripped players of their natural abilities, something which goes very much against the philosophy of both Shankly and Paisley, whereas Michel's 'total football' philosophy was similar to ours.


I'm not going to respond to your second post, because it implies a relationship with KK that I don't think you have - an opinion, yes, but let's not get that mixed up with fact.

I'm just saying that if anyone told Kenny that Gerrard was not a great player he'd F***ing laugh at them and then probably chin them.

Fair point - a little too rigid under Rafa's interpretation of systems, but isn't it also fair to say that a lot of player have said that Rafa improved their game?

Your 2nd point - have another read of Sacchi's statement mate. Great footballer and great player are not necessarily the same thing, in the sense of the team dynamic and an individuals role within the team.

Fair point - a little too rigid under Rafa's interpretation of systems, but isn't it also fair to say that a lot of player have said that Rafa improved their game?

Your 2nd point - have another read of Sacchi's statement mate. Great footballer and great player are not necessarily the same thing, in the sense of the team dynamic and an individuals role within the team.

I'm not saying Rafa didn't improve their games mate, i'm saying he did. Rafa is a great manager but his belief in what he does is too great sometimes. The perfect example being the loss of Alonso and his failure to adapt his belief to accomodate his loss.

I've read Sacchi's statement 3 times now mate and my opinion stays the same. Sacchi's statement is based on his philosophy and what he perceives a great player to be.

Kenny's view of a great player will be different to that of Sacchi's view as they have different philosophies. If you asked Kenny if Gerrard is a great player he would definitely say yes and i would say exactly the same. It's Gerrard's freedom and instinct that make him a great player but under Sacchi's philosophy and the rigidity of the system he played then Gerrard's inabilty to become a robot would render him not a great player.

Gerrard is a great player when you let him be himself, if you try and suppress his natural instinct then it's obvious he will not be a great player. Sacchi should have said this when he made that staement.

Play him in a 3 man midfield with Meireles and Lucas.

Let him play deep where he can pass and control the tempo while also being able to break and get forward.

The way he is playing now to be honest. I see Meireles further forward.

And its not working too bad either is it?

Let Kenny do what hes doing with him for me it works !

Stevie needs to be given the opertunity to get in and around the box, where he can cause the most harm. I would play him behind Suarez against Chelsea, Lucas and Meireles have shown they can take care of the centre midfield.

 

Did well with his cross from the right wing.  I think we need to close the chapter on him playing as a deep central midfielder (as he did against Fulham).  Worked a little better today as Meireles was effectively a striker.  When Carroll and Suarez are playing though I still believe he is better served on the wing (in a 4-4-2).  If a 3-5-2 then play him with Meireles in front of Lucas.

Lucas is not the be all and am sorry JD, the subject of SG being a Central Midfielder is still well and truly open.

Yes Lucas has improved, but I am sure that he will be one of those to lose his starting place once the summer transfer window has been and gone.

For me he is too slow to distribute the ball and the only reason he accumulated so many passes as the top 'passing midfielder' last season was because of his passes never being over a few feet long. He isn't a bad player but not the best in his position.
Gerrard however, we wanted him playing in the centre for a long time even when Benitez insisted that Lucas was better there than Gerrard.

I don't think we play to our strengths. Gerrard for me is the only player who should be playing in the middle. The only player who can really do what Alonso used to to. Lucas is no Alonso and cannot find that incisive pass and certainly doesn't do enough to get forward.

So with Lucas confined to the bench as cover for when we need to push Gerrard forward, this is how I would like to see us line up (if KK decides to keep with the 3 at the back.


                        Reina

             Skrtl   Carragher   Agger

Kelly                                            Johnson

                         Gerrard

             Kuyt                    Meireles

                    Suarez       

                                Carroll         

Spot on, but without Kuyt in the team, he'll be our back up striker when Suarez and Carroll are fit. I can't work out where you are saying Meireles and Kuyt are playing in that system?

I'm not saying Rafa didn't improve their games mate, i'm saying he did. Rafa is a great manager but his belief in what he does is too great sometimes. The perfect example being the loss of Alonso and his failure to adapt his belief to accomodate his loss.

I've read Sacchi's statement 3 times now mate and my opinion stays the same. Sacchi's statement is based on his philosophy and what he perceives a great player to be.

Kenny's view of a great player will be different to that of Sacchi's view as they have different philosophies. If you asked Kenny if Gerrard is a great player he would definitely say yes and i would say exactly the same. It's Gerrard's freedom and instinct that make him a great player but under Sacchi's philosophy and the rigidity of the system he played then Gerrard's inabilty to become a robot would render him not a great player.

Gerrard is a great player when you let him be himself, if you try and suppress his natural instinct then it's obvious he will not be a great player. Sacchi should have said this when he made that staement.

Ok, fair points, and perhaps his view of the team dynamic and how one plays within that dynamic should encompass the desequilibrante type player who thrives on freedom - which is pretty much exactly what Rafa did with him?

Regarding alonso - Rafa did replace him, but was unlucky in the number of games he could play due to other factors at the club at the time.