So, What's Gone Wrong...

A quick take on the differences in playing philosophy - I don't want to go too in depth so that I can leave plenty of room for discussion.

GK - we know that Reina is probably the best goalkeeping distributor of the ball in the PL, but it seems that he is no longer doing what he did since he came here. Apparently Hodgson wants him to be "more english" which presumably means waiting til everyone is in a set position, before launching a huge hoof downfield.

CB's - too close together, too deep.

FB's - too far from CB's, also too deep.

DM - actually, I'm not altogether sure we play with 2 DM's any more. It seems more like we play with a flat 5, 3 of whom break forwards.

CM - Far too deep, see above.

ST - Isolated, and expected to chase every lost cause, when usually marked 3-1.

Not enough players getting in the box.

Quick fixes.

Push the CB's up slightly and actually play the formation.
Having 2 sets of midfield (1 defensive, 1 attacking) means we should have at least 2 players between the opposition banks of 4 at all times, thereby creating space for others to join the attack, as these players have to be picked up.

Pushing up the wider players of the 3 attaking mids, means the full backs have to step inside, which in turn creates space for our attacking FB, and also ties up their wide player as he tries to track back.

The DM then supports the flank where the main thrust of the attack is as the wide player comes into the box, doing the job of not only compressing the play, but also of providing cover.

The wide players who go into the box, also support and create space for not only the striker, but also the attacking central player, who in turn creates more space.

The DM not covering for FB takes up a central position to defend against break outs, but also provides a fulcrum to pivot the attack, from one wide area to another.

The CAM also can drop deeper if/when the initial surge fails, to provide support, and spread the play.

These are the basics of 4231, the formation we are supposed to be playing.

What we are really playing is a 451, with no pressing, no movement "between the lines" and total predictability going forwards.

The players are certainly not enjoying themselves on the pitch.

Our attacking players don't get any action most of the times but our defence does, not because they are passing to each other but because we're being overrun in all positions.

I just gave up looking for an explanation because we have players better than most teams and yet we play worse than a championship team. There doesn't seem to be any chemistry or fluidity.

I personally never like defensive football. We have to play to win in all games which means 'go attack with confidence and put the opposition on the defense'. Could 4141 work for us?. We dont need poulsen or lucas. If the 4 backs are strong, then the 1 should be a playmaker (which we don't have now, wonder whether SG can play this role?). Assuming SG is the playmaker, the 4 AMs - for now maybe GJ/Kyut right, RM and JC/Pacheco in centre and Babel left (preferably a new left wing). striker torres. This is not easy. And I think it's about time we start playing Pacheco, Kelly.

The players are certainly not enjoying themselves on the pitch.

Our attacking players don't get any action most of the times but our defence does, not because they are passing to each other but because we're being overrun in all positions.

I just gave up looking for an explanation because we have players better than most teams and yet we play worse than a championship team. There doesn't seem to be any chemistry or fluidity.

well said, Adryan. What's your view on my comments?

simples WOY thats it

Do we really need another "why are we so sh*te" topic?  We already have a Is Roy the right man thread ;o)

Not the 4-1-4-1 but the 4-4-1-1 then.

Joe Cole can't play central, he needs to be given a free role, basically taking Gerrard's role of 2007-2009, after all that's his favoured position.

Playmakers normally don't play so deep because they are playmakers so Gerrard should partner Meireles in the centre. Joe Cole, Steven Gerrard and Raul Meireles basically form that midfield trinity used to be occupied by Gerrard, Alonso and Mascherano but only if the 4-4-1-1 is played.

4-4-2 isn't ideal because Cole would have to play on the wings, unless a 4-4-2 diamond is used but don't know if that would work.

Width is also a problem, we have no natural width as our wide players tend to cut inside, so most of our play goes through the centre, so all the opposition do is pack the centre and as a result we struggle to break them down.

Had we players providing natural width, hogging the touchline and getting there heels white this by default would stretch the opposition, givving room for our midfield players to find space and operate effectively.

Width is also a problem, we have no natural width as our wide players tend to cut inside, so most of our play goes through the centre, so all the opposition do is pack the centre and as a result we struggle to break them down.

Had we players providing natural width, hogging the touchline and getting there heels white this by default would stretch the opposition, givving room for our midfield players to find space and operate effectively.

and Torres would find more space in the middle, rather than being marked by four men camped on the D, he'd find gaps between the CBs

and Torres would find more space in the middle, rather than being marked by four men camped on the D, he'd find gaps between the CBs

Fazakerley.

Everything has  been wrong since the end of the the 08/09 season.

Rafa sums it up well in that interview yesterday (or was it the day before).

Width is also a problem, we have no natural width as our wide players tend to cut inside, so most of our play goes through the centre, so all the opposition do is pack the centre and as a result we struggle to break them down.

Had we players providing natural width, hogging the touchline and getting there heels white this by default would stretch the opposition, givving room for our midfield players to find space and operate effectively.

Yeah, because it's not wise to play players out of their positions because they tend to drift back to their preferred roles, something I've experienced myself!

Width is also a problem, we have no natural width as our wide players tend to cut inside, so most of our play goes through the centre, so all the opposition do is pack the centre and as a result we struggle to break them down.

Had we players providing natural width, hogging the touchline and getting there heels white this by default would stretch the opposition, givving room for our midfield players to find space and operate effectively.

The width is supposed to come from the full backs - the wide players tuck in to get bodies in the box and pull the opposition out of shape.

That's how a 4231 works - or that's how it's supposed to work, which it doesn't under woy.

442 is dead as a dodo, and is too easy to exploit.

433 would be my preferred choice.

The width is supposed to come from the full backs - the wide players tuck in to get bodies in the box and pull the opposition out of shape.

That's how a 4231 works - or that's how it's supposed to work, which it doesn't under woy.

442 is dead as a dodo, and is too easy to exploit.

433 would be my preferred choice.

I understand the width is supposed to come from the full backs and as you have said, we are playing too deep thus our full backs are not offering us that width, which comes back to the original point I was making, we are not stretching the opposition and everything becomes congested through the middle when we attack.

As you said we need to defend higher up the pitch which in turn would give our full backs an advantage in their starting position to join in on the attacks and provide that width.

'What’s gone wrong'? - Where do we start...

Most I know will start with Roy concerning our current football and the buck does stop with him. You could go back further too regarding our former owners and last season’s failure to reach for CL football.

At the moment in present point in time there is no doubt Roy has got a lot of work to do and I doubt whether he is the man to do it. I'd be willing to give him more time if he was able to rejuvenate the players and change his tactics somewhat. The calendar I don't think has been fair to him with the summer-less opportunity to lay his methodical foundations down upon the players. But if recent games to go by are an indication of what he would have tested out in pre-season, well then a full summer of pre-season would have been folly anyway.

No matter how many 'average' players he has been left with, this team should be in the top six currently at this early stage of the season. 19th is not on and the buck stops with him.

What’s currently gone wrong - well personally and firstly IMHO he should have been on the look out for a CB. I know money was tight for him and a back-up striker was also badly needed (one transfer he couldn't manoeuvre in the summer), and the departure of Mascherano left a MASSIVE hole in our midfields defence. But, he/we IMO need a CB almost as much as we need a second striker. I think it says a lot that our best defender (CB) is an ageing player of his former self in Jamie Carragher, this is something I think stems back from Rafa's day. Skertel, I'd ship out and sell him for as much money as I could 6-7 million or so). And look for a truly World class CB now that NESV are here, Agger's good but he isn't world class not by any stretch of the imagination, he's a good footballing Centre back but not a world class defender. Second to that failure in getting a foil for Torres or someone of substantial quality who is willing to do to do a little bird on the bench from time to time is also a big problem.

Roy is implementing the tactics that served his Fulham side quite well in the Europa league last season here at Anfield. It’s as clear as mud though his tactics with our personnel are like chalk and cheese, they just aren’t aligning and something has to change and change fast.

If he is so hell bent on sitting that deep I don’t understand why he hasn’t picked ‘Nick the Bubble’ who has been our best CB IMO so far this season. The Greek whenever he has come in has done a decent job and his lack of pace, but defending ability would be apt for a side who sit deep.

However, we need to push up 10 – 20 yards and play in the oppositions half and we’re not doing that and it is fecking painful to watch. Johnson’s been off form, Konchesky is still bedding in as is Merieles, Cole has been non-existent, Poulsen is pants and there you already have half a team who are struggling with finding cohesion. Add to that the hapless Lucas and the ageing Carra who is giving his all but still looks the player of his former self and you’ve now got seven first teamers really struggling with form and cohesion, plus the bosses tactics which are not working. Now you have a recipe for disaster as Gerrard like Carra a player of him former self is unable to drag us out of the s.hit when needed and isolated Torres and things are looking even worse.

I think Merieles had one of his better games in the end against Everton last week and there is a glimmer of hope there in that position for him – if he’s persisted with there. If he was paired with a ‘sitter’ who’s much better than Lucas or Poulsen we may find a decent axis to work from. For the time being though I’d pair the Merieles with Gerrard in the hope that we could actually start to build up an attack from deep instead of giving the ball away cheaply all the time, Gerrard IMO needs to be back in the mix so we (as a team) can begin to get our ‘foot on the ball’ in the event that Torres gets some kind of service before he starts to forget what a football looks like. Cole has been a disappointment but I’d start him on the left, I know it makes us narrow-ish but him starting 10 yards out wide gives him room to move inside and feed Torres, from the middle he looks uncomfortable and usually has his back to goal. While Kuyt is out I suppose it has to be Maxi (BUT LOOK FFS THE QUALITY WE HAVE TO CALL UPON, MAXI) he is definitely a ‘Morientes’ where he has some technical ability but isn’t suited to English football and always plays on the peripheral of football matches.

In the hole from the players I’ve chosen we have left Babel, Jovo, Pacheco or even Lucas. I’d be willing to give Lucas a go there first as it was acclaimed the Brazilian was more of an attacking midfielder or box 2 box before he joined us.


---------------------------------  Reina

        Johnson           Carra               Soto            Konchesky

                               Gerrard           Merieles

          Maxi                 Lucas/Pacheco            Cole

                                       Torres


I’d go with something like this for the time being with the players we have available. Really there is nothing drastic in change and there doesn’t need to be, it’s the tactics that need changing more than anything. If this side played 10-15 yds higher up the field, pressed the opposition in their half and worked harder at closing down (Rafa’s methods) then it would be the possession of football that only needs working on, having Gerrard deeper will help this but we need to get some sort of possession/cohesion back after we start playing some positive football. We’re standing off for long periods without possession and when we finally get it we panic. Roy MUST change this mindset around so that we’re the team on the ‘front foot’ we’re the team pressing, attacking and in possession. We are conceding too much territorial ground, possession and goals to boot and I highly doubt he’ll be able to change our fortunes unless he changes his thinking and approach to the games. 

'What’s gone wrong'? - Where do we start...

Most I know will start with Roy concerning our current football and the buck does stop with him. You could go back further too regarding our former owners and last season’s failure to reach for CL football.

At the moment in present point in time there is no doubt Roy has got a lot of work to do and I doubt whether he is the man to do it. I'd be willing to give him more time if he was able to rejuvenate the players and change his tactics somewhat. The calendar I don't think has been fair to him with the summer-less opportunity to lay his methodical foundations down upon the players. But if recent games to go by are an indication of what he would have tested out in pre-season, well then a full summer of pre-season would have been folly anyway.

No matter how many 'average' players he has been left with, this team should be in the top six currently at this early stage of the season. 19th is not on and the buck stops with him.

What’s currently gone wrong - well personally and firstly IMHO he should have been on the look out for a CB. I know money was tight for him and a back-up striker was also badly needed (one transfer he couldn't manoeuvre in the summer), and the departure of Mascherano left a MASSIVE hole in our midfields defence. But, he/we IMO need a CB almost as much as we need a second striker. I think it says a lot that our best defender (CB) is an ageing player of his former self in Jamie Carragher, this is something I think stems back from Rafa's day. Skertel, I'd ship out and sell him for as much money as I could 6-7 million or so). And look for a truly World class CB now that NESV are here, Agger's good but he isn't world class not by any stretch of the imagination, he's a good footballing Centre back but not a world class defender. Second to that failure in getting a foil for Torres or someone of substantial quality who is willing to do to do a little bird on the bench from time to time is also a big problem.

Roy is implementing the tactics that served his Fulham side quite well in the Europa league last season here at Anfield. It’s as clear as mud though his tactics with our personnel are like chalk and cheese, they just aren’t aligning and something has to change and change fast.

If he is so hell bent on sitting that deep I don’t understand why he hasn’t picked ‘Nick the Bubble’ who has been our best CB IMO so far this season. The Greek whenever he has come in has done a decent job and his lack of pace, but defending ability would be apt for a side who sit deep.

However, we need to push up 10 – 20 yards and play in the oppositions half and we’re not doing that and it is fecking painful to watch. Johnson’s been off form, Konchesky is still bedding in as is Merieles, Cole has been non-existent, Poulsen is pants and there you already have half a team who are struggling with finding cohesion. Add to that the hapless Lucas and the ageing Carra who is giving his all but still looks the player of his former self and you’ve now got seven first teamers really struggling with form and cohesion, plus the bosses tactics which are not working. Now you have a recipe for disaster as Gerrard like Carra a player of him former self is unable to drag us out of the s.hit when needed and isolated Torres and things are looking even worse.

I think Merieles had one of his better games in the end against Everton last week and there is a glimmer of hope there in that position for him – if he’s persisted with there. If he was paired with a ‘sitter’ who’s much better than Lucas or Poulsen we may find a decent axis to work from. For the time being though I’d pair the Merieles with Gerrard in the hope that we could actually start to build up an attack from deep instead of giving the ball away cheaply all the time, Gerrard IMO needs to be back in the mix so we (as a team) can begin to get our ‘foot on the ball’ in the event that Torres gets some kind of service before he starts to forget what a football looks like. Cole has been a disappointment but I’d start him on the left, I know it makes us narrow-ish but him starting 10 yards out wide gives him room to move inside and feed Torres, from the middle he looks uncomfortable and usually has his back to goal. While Kuyt is out I suppose it has to be Maxi (BUT LOOK FFS THE QUALITY WE HAVE TO CALL UPON, MAXI) he is definitely a ‘Morientes’ where he has some technical ability but isn’t suited to English football and always plays on the peripheral of football matches.

In the hole from the players I’ve chosen we have left Babel, Jovo, Pacheco or even Lucas. I’d be willing to give Lucas a go there first as it was acclaimed the Brazilian was more of an attacking midfielder or box 2 box before he joined us.


---------------------------------  Reina

        Johnson           Carra               Soto            Konchesky

                               Gerrard           Merieles

          Maxi                 Lucas/Pacheco            Cole

                                       Torres


I’d go with something like this for the time being with the players we have available. Really there is nothing drastic in change and there doesn’t need to be, it’s the tactics that need changing more than anything. If this side played 10-15 yds higher up the field, pressed the opposition in their half and worked harder at closing down (Rafa’s methods) then it would be the possession of football that only needs working on, having Gerrard deeper will help this but we need to get some sort of possession/cohesion back after we start playing some positive football. We’re standing off for long periods without possession and when we finally get it we panic. Roy MUST change this mindset around so that we’re the team on the ‘front foot’ we’re the team pressing, attacking and in possession. We are conceding too much territorial ground, possession and goals to boot and I highly doubt he’ll be able to change our fortunes unless he changes his thinking and approach to the games. 

Interesting and this can be also be looked at as 4411.

IMO, i think Johnson has been disastrous at RB. I would like to give Kelly a chance and push Johnson up to the RM. I fully support playing Pacheco. It'll look like this.

Kelly.....Carra.....Soto .....Konchesky

.............Gerrard.... .....Merieles......

Johnson/kyut............................Cole/Pacheco

........................ ......Pacheco/Cole.............

........................ .......Torres........... ...............

RH's tactics are really not good for Liverpool and the players we have. He has to go and asap. i still can't forget the smile and grin when the Everton game ended. He had the cheek to smile and grin with that derby loss....It's RH and that's what has gone wrong.

Must admit mate with '35 years experience' I'd have thought Roy would have been able to show a bit more of a mixed repotoire with his tactical set-up. As it stands, it's 'same old same old' which if things don't turn around will probably cost him his job.

Roy.

Roy.

Hodgson.