Houllier's last squad v Rafa's

a small amount of people just dont like Rafa and will not credit him where he deserves credit.

Lad get over yourself.

Where the F**k does he deserve credit in us coming 7th? He gets credit when he deserves it, coming 7th is no achievment for this club. It shows how far we've fallen when we're doing cart wheels for coming second in 08-09.

Celebrating 2nd is an indication of how far we've fallen under both Houllier and Benitez as well as Souness and Evans. And none of them had squads good enough for Liverpool because for Liverpool, winning the League is our bread and butter. None of those four achieved that.

 Yes facts need to be accurate but for me some people will not admit that they just didnt like Rafa it would be much easier if they did.Ignoring his achievements which many do just isnt the right thing to do. He was an extremely stubborn manager but he was hindered by a very anti Rafa press. Ferguson apparently changed his side for something in the region of 150 times in a row last night but no mention of him being a tinkerman.Its ok for the press to sneer at him but I take exception at Liverpool supporters doing so.

We're not falling out, I just believe these sort of threads need to be spot on in terms of information as that's what we're judging.

Fair enough mate!

Just wanted to make clear that it was a mistake not to check the stats, not any lack of common sense on my part!

Anyway do you think Roy inherited a worse squad than Rafa?

I know if I was a manager I would much rather have the squad Roy inherited as although both have weaknesses the squad now has much more top quality players than the one Houllier left.

Winning the league was our bread and butter 20 years ago times have changed.It wasnt our bread and butter when Shankly didnt win anything for 6 years.Coming 7th with 63 points as apposed to Gerards 4th with 60 points demonstrates things change and its not always possible to compare like for like. There are also plenty of posts on here from people who rubbish Rafa at every given moment despite him giving us some experiences that hadn't been seen for 20 years. I'll get over myself when people give him the credit he deserves.You can no longer compare or have as a goal the achievements from 20 years ago. We will never dominate again whether with Roy or any other rmanager, finance plays a far greater part in success now than it did 20 years ago,

No our defence wasn't fine, our goalkeeper was fine. That's why, without a shadow of a doubt, Reina was our player of the year. He was the reason we kept such a good defensive record - as well as seven clean sheets in nine games without Johnson at right back.

Our attacking impetus was dire due to sh*t wingers, a central midfield pairing who didn't do a great deal going forward, an injury prone forward and Gerrard being out of sorts.

Yes our defense was fine.  Not exemplary but it was fine, 3rd least goals conceded isn't a poor effort.  There was most certainly room for improvement but it was hardly an area of concern.  As for the 7 clean sheets in 9 without Johnson statistic, it's a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc (after it, because of it) and a very common fallacy used to present an argument to someone as truth.

Our attacking impetus was actually due to Steven Gerrard.  Now make no mistakes here, I'm not criticising him personally or as a footballer because he's dragged Liverpool out of the mud and singlehandedly carried us on his shoulders so many times that he's entitled to have a sh*t spell.  My criticism is actually over Rafa Benitez who persisted in picking him and playing him or not finding another way around the Gerrard conundrum (ie. not being so centro-focul).  

Again the myth about our central midfielders not being creative enough is bullshit, we created more total shots last season than the 2008/09 season (many additional chances being created from the right flank, it wasn't Dirk either but what else can you expect from someone who "can't defend").  If you analyse the heatmaps, employ the optastats and actim indexes appropriately, watch every game of the season with a balanced perspective and a good footballing brain, you'll find that people that say those things are actually wrong, biased or looking for a scapegoat.  My money is on C.

We had an injury prone forward in 08/09 too but it didn't stop us, but now that it doesn't go our way we look for answers (this is what makes me believe that people are looking for a scapegoat and not wrong/biased).  Alonso is also another reason people like to believe but it's simply not true again.  The reasoning seems to be "but Alonso was here in 08/09 and we did amazing, wasn't here in 09/10 and we did sh*t, therefore the Alonso sale is the biggest cause of us sucking".

I'm going to let you all in on a little secret as to why we were sh*t last year.  We had the home form of title contenders but the away form of relegation candidates, the answer lies in that riddle.

edit: The league should NEVER have been our bread and butter under the H&G regime, it simply makes no sense.  If money is tight for whatever reason, your bread and butter is European competition.

double edit: To keep it on topic, I'd take Rafa's squad in a heartbeat over Houllier's.  3 solid additions to Rafa's squad and it's capable of challenging for any and everything.  3 solid additions to Houllier's squad and it's the same quality as Rafa's squad.

Hate to jump in on this argument, but I've been on this forum for only around 6 months and I have to say, I've had no inclination of people not giving Rafa the credit he deserves. If anything hes treated like a God on here, most people who disagree with that statement are usually clased as a WUM or simply not having a clue.

So I would have to disagree that he doesn't get the credit he deserves. I won't forget what Rafa achieved at this club, it was a magnificent feat, nor will I forget what Houllier achieved at this club. But we simply cant brush aside what happened in their final seasons either, albeit contributed to by other factors (owners, injuries etc.)

On topic:

- Houlliers squad had a stronger and more strength in depth front line.
- I would have to say its difficult to pick between Finnan, Sami, Carra, Risse - Johnson, Carra, Skrtel, Insua
- The majority other areas of the pitch Rafas squad was more strong (Apart from maybe LB & RB)

Overall in terms of strength and depth Rafas squad is certainly stronger when passed on.

Anyway do you think Roy inherited a worse squad than Rafa?

For me, Rafa inherited some of the best players we've ever had in the Premiership era - Carra, Sami, Didi, Stevie in their prime unlike now where Roy has inherited a past his best Carra and a Gerrard reaching the final years as well. And Rafa inherited a solid back line, with the exception of the keeper, Finnan, Carra, Sami, Riise. He also inherited the Euro 2004 top scorer (Baros), our record signing (Cisse) and a few other decent players i.e. Murphy/Owen both of whom left shortly after Benitez' arrival though.

So it wasn't a dreadful squad that Benitez inherited. It was, like has been for so many times in the Premiership era, short of that one or two extra players.

Now Hodgson inherited a world class keeper but the back line is shaky to say the least. The midfield he inherited was decent (Gerrard, Lucas, Mascherano, Aquilani) but Mascherano was pushing off from two years ago and Aquilani's injury record was against him as was Lucas' fragile reputation. He didn't inherit much in terms of forwards with the exception being Torres of course. I'd say Baros, Cisse, Owen, Pongolle would all be ahead of Ngog in the pecking order.

The squad left by Benitez is still short of quality, especially down the flanks. Pretty much where we struggled under Houllier. And the depth wasn't really there for either.

I would say they were on a par in terms of squads. Houllier left some quality players with a lot of average players as did Benitez. If I had to choose though, I think I'd take the squad from 04-05 simply because that had the base from which to build and every good side is built from the back. We may have more options now, but Carra and Sami (in 04-05) would stroll into the centre half pairing now.

We also had forwards flying with confidence as I mentioned, Baros was coming off the back of the Euro's in 2004 where he was the top scorer and Cisse was coming with a huge reputation whereas Torres was coming off the back of the World Cup this season down on confidence because he didn't put a foot right in South Africa. And his future was in major doubt when Roy arrived. (I'm not saying Baros or Cisse are a patch on Torres by the way).

Rafa inherited possibly our best central midfield in the Premiership as well - Stevie/Didi. Lucas and Masch don't comapre if we're being honest.

Yes our defense was fine.  Not exemplary but it was fine, 3rd least goals conceded isn't a poor effort.  There was most certainly room for improvement but it was hardly an area of concern.  As for the 7 clean sheets in 9 without Johnson statistic, it's a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc (after it, because of it) and a very common fallacy used to present an argument to someone as truth.

Our attacking impetus was actually due to Steven Gerrard.  Now make no mistakes here, I'm not criticising him personally or as a footballer because he's dragged Liverpool out of the mud and singlehandedly carried us on his shoulders so many times that he's entitled to have a sh*t spell.  My criticism is actually over Rafa Benitez who persisted in picking him and playing him or not finding another way around the Gerrard conundrum (ie. not being so centro-focul). 

Again the myth about our central midfielders not being creative enough is bullshit, we created more total shots last season than the 2008/09 season (many additional chances being created from the right flank, it wasn't Dirk either but what else can you expect from someone who "can't defend").  If you analyse the heatmaps, employ the optastats and actim indexes appropriately, watch every game of the season with a balanced perspective and a good footballing brain, you'll find that people that say those things are actually wrong, biased or looking for a scapegoat.  My money is on C.

We had an injury prone forward in 08/09 too but it didn't stop us, but now that it doesn't go our way we look for answers (this is what makes me believe that people are looking for a scapegoat and not wrong/biased).  Alonso is also another reason people like to believe but it's simply not true again.  The reasoning seems to be "but Alonso was here in 08/09 and we did amazing, wasn't here in 09/10 and we did sh*t, therefore the Alonso sale is the biggest cause of us sucking".

I'm going to let you all in on a little secret as to why we were sh*t last year.  We had the home form of title contenders but the away form of relegation candidates, the answer lies in that riddle.

edit: The league should NEVER have been our bread and butter under the H&G regime, it simply makes no sense.  If money is tight for whatever reason, your bread and butter is European competition.

double edit: To keep it on topic, I'd take Rafa's squad in a heartbeat over Houllier's.  3 solid additions to Rafa's squad and it's capable of challenging for any and everything.  3 solid additions to Houllier's squad and it's the same quality as Rafa's squad.

The defence wasn't good enough last year. Made to look good by Reina, as I mentioned earlier.

Our attacking problems were not down to Steven Gerrard alone. Yes he didn't have his best year by any stretch but the serivce to him from the central pairing and the wide areas wasn't good enough. Simply because the players weren't (still aren't) good enough.

Stats are bollocks usually. Reina takes a goal kick, goes straight through to the opposing keeper and we've got a shot on target. So the number of shots doesn't really do much for me. What does is the fact that neither Mascherano or Lucas scored a Premiership goal. That by anybody's reasoning is a F***ing shocking fact. Your central midfielders not scoring is a disgrace. Central midfielders by the way not some bollock term you'll use to excuse them from not scoring.

I can study all those stats you want me to and rewatch every game from last year. Not only would I be suicidial but I'd also be reassured that neither Lucas or Mascherano offered us enough going forward. Two goals between them all season, none in the League, is enough for me to know they didn't offer enough going forward. No scapegoat, just simple facts from a lad with a footballing brain thanks.

It didn't stop us in 08/09 - like I said earlier. We think coming 2nd isn't stopping us these days. If you're happy with 2nd and believe that we wasn't stopped in doing so then great. Personally I'm slightly embarrassed to have a home coming for a side finishing 2nd.

Alonso's sale obviously played a role in us going from 2nd to 7th. As did Arbeloa's sale and Sami Hyypia's. They were replaced by players of a lesser quality. If you replace top quality with lesser, you're gonna get worse results. That's the secret to us going from 2nd to 7th.

If the League shouldn't be our bread and butter under Hicks and Gillett but instead Europe, why is Roy Hodgson being linched? He's had one transfer window to spend money - under Hicks and Gillett - and while the League isn't going well, he's unbeaten in Europe. By your reasoning, he should be up there with Paisley and Shankly. No, the League will always be our bread and butter. If we fail in it, then it's not good enough.

A lot more young talent left behind by Rafa then by Gerard. No comparison in the squads in my view

Both squads have got the same mix of sh*te, maybes and proven quality IMO. Agree with 78 with regards to the youth though. But we mustn't forget GH brought Stevie to fruition rather nicely.

Lad get over yourself.

Where the F**k does he deserve credit in us coming 7th? He gets credit when he deserves it, coming 7th is no achievment for this club. It shows how far we've fallen when we're doing cart wheels for coming second in 08-09.

Celebrating 2nd is an indication of how far we've fallen under both Houllier and Benitez as well as Souness and Evans. And none of them had squads good enough for Liverpool because for Liverpool, winning the League is our bread and butter. None of those four achieved that.

Then by saying that the league is our bread and butter we should not be indulging any of the players in the squads over the last 20 years and be referring to them as legends, because they simply don't deserve it and having matched up to the standards expected of Liverpool players or managers.

If the league is our bread and butter we have failed to be successful for 100  of our 118 year history. I understand the statement but think given its 20 years since we won the league I wouldnt right-off all of those years as unsuccesful.

If the league is our bread and butter we have failed to be successful for 100  of our 118 year history. I understand the statement but think given its 20 years since we won the league I wouldnt right-off all of those years as unsuccesful.

I'm not writing anyone off just playing devil's advocate.

Then by saying that the league is our bread and butter we should not be indulging any of the players in the squads over the last 20 years and be referring to them as legends, because they simply don't deserve it and having matched up to the standards expected of Liverpool players or managers.

Ooooh you've done it now. The Stat Master will be after you now to pepper you/bore you with facts and lambast you if you have made just the tiniest error in your post. Beware!

Both managers had some real talent to play with, and personally i don't think they got the best out of those players when it came to the Premier league, but Houllier had more money made available to him than Rafa, that's for sure.

Both managers had some real talent to play with, and personally I don't think they got the best out of those players when it came to the Premier league, but Houllier had more money made available to him than Rafa, that's for sure.

I was just going to make that point Orchard Red.

Tompkins did a good piece which adjusted both net spends to tdays money and it turns out Houllier spent on average more net overall and per season.

I think Rafa did well to leave us such a good squad with very good young players coming through considering the financial constraints he was up against.

Then by saying that the league is our bread and butter we should not be indulging any of the players in the squads over the last 20 years and be referring to them as legends, because they simply don't deserve it and having matched up to the standards expected of Liverpool players or managers.

To an extent yes. Our bread and butter is the League and we haven't won it since 1990, therefore for the past 20 years we've failed - both players and managers. And I won't be giving credit to any player for getting us 2nd, 3rd, 4th or where have you same way I won't give the credit to a manager for that final position.

To be quite honest with you I don't see a massive difference in those two squads.

Maybe Roy's shaded it slightly but it's very, very close.

Roy's would have won hands down had the asset stripping of recent times not gone on.

You simply cant say that all of our success means nothing unless we have won the league the same year.
i agree our main objective must be the league first and foremost but realistically finance has overtaken us in the last 20 years plus our European exile. I admire your consistency but when I stood at Everton Valley in May 2005 cheering and crying it felt very much like success to me. I am lucky I have seen all the great teams since the mid 60's and part of the emotion that night was too see youngsters seeing Big Ears coming home and sharing in something they thought they would never see and had only heard about from their fathers.

I have stayed off this post and let it run to see what happens. Most surprising Is that Walton had not come out and called the people who are disagreeing with him a judas or a WUM. Can only put this down to the postcounts of the ones he's at odds with. Also you sidekick corbally and Huyton have also stayed away mmmm funny that. Pathetic at times children really is.

Back on topic but I still say GED left a stronger squad ( not including the kids ) as I think the ones left from GED may have been missed off.

You simply cant say that all of our success means nothing unless we have won the league the same year.
i agree our main objective must be the league first and foremost but realistically finance has overtaken us in the last 20 years plus our European exile. I admire your consistency but when I stood at Everton Valley in May 2005 cheering and crying it felt very much like success to me. I am lucky I have seen all the great teams since the mid 60's and part of the emotion that night was too see youngsters seeing Big Ears coming home and sharing in something they thought they would never see and had only heard about from their fathers.

I was St George's that night whitnessing my side bringing home my first European Cup. And it was a success, nobody is doubting that. Any trophy won is success.

What isn't success is 2nd, 3rd or anywhere but first in the League for Liverpool Football Club. And coming 2nd, 3rd or anywhere other than first will not be treated as success by me. Nor will I make out everybody deserves taps on the back and well dones for coming 2nd. That's not saying our other success in other competitions aren't successes because they are, but for 20 years we haven't been successful in the League which will always be the biggest trophy to win.

I've never bought into the finance stopped us arguement, if that was the case City would be walking away with the League and they're not. Sides like Leeds and Newcastle wouldn't go down because they've spent big but they did. Money will get you so far, if you don't have a manager who knows how to spend it wisely and then manage the players properly, you'll get nowhere. Our European exile was during the late 80s as well, when we were still dominating English football.

I have stayed off this post and let it run to see what happens. Most surprising Is that Walton had not come out and called the people who are disagreeing with him a judas or a WUM. Can only put this down to the postcounts of the ones he's at odds with. Also you sidekick corbally and Huyton have also stayed away mmmm funny that. Pathetic at times children really is.

Back on topic but I still say GED left a stronger squad ( not including the kids ) as I think the ones left from GED may have been missed off.

Top bit yes.  Bottom bit not for me.

A monkey has more footballing brains than that asswipe gray & I don't mean Keys. I right pair of tw*ts if ever there were. Keys is so F***ing condescending. Rafa took Houllier's good squad and turned it into a great one, getting rid of spit the dog was a good start.