Are the players getting off lightly?

There must be close to 10 topics running in one form or other about Hodgson and his inability and general idiocy, and rightly so sooner the better were rid of him.

But I must admit I do believe some players are getting off lightly because of the focus on Hodgson, and I dont just mean Poulsen and Koncheskey.

Lets be honest no matter what tool is in charge of a team shouldn't we still expect more and get more from international seasoned pro's?. I mean I'm not a manager but I'd expect better from a Liverpool team on the pitch no matter what training I gave or speech I made before a game like the Wolves one.

Hand on heart are the likes of Johnson, Kuyt, Torres, Meireles, Skrtel not able to give more then they are despite an incompetent being in charge? Cole another tho he has a slight excuse in the injuries and suspensions that have stop started his time here.

Granted confidence must be low but I still expect more from that standard of player no matter what. I mean is it going to be as simple as Hodgson goes and thes lads will just turn it on again? Chances are it wont be that easy.

Hodgson has a lot to answer for but I dont believe the players are innocent in all this either

Yes they are Brian. The form if the players gas been nothing short of disgraceful. I know Roy is clearly not inspiring the players but they have to share some of the responsibility.
Without encroaching on other threads, we are carrying players like Torres. I know Konchesky and Poulsen are awful but fernando isn't playing any better yet he is undroppable, we are literally playing with a man down.
I'm just using Torres as an example because there are others but I honestly believe that we if the players aren't going to up there game they should be left out regardless of who they are, what they've done previously or what there reputation is.

I think there are three categories of underperforming players this season.

Those who seem to be doing their best but are not good enough, with a "no longer good enough" sub-category (ie : Kuyt, Carra), a "not yet" one (ie : Eccleston, Shelvey, N'Gog for big matches) and a "has never been" special for Konchesky.

Then those who can be suspected of laziness as they look clearly not that motivated (ie : Torres about everytime, Johnson, Babel and Skrtel sometimes, and Poulsen -who would be in first category anyway-).

Finally those whose performance seem to be under influence of how others play  (I'd say Gerrard, Reina, Lucas, Maxi, Kyrgiakos, all great when the team is globally good, but adding errors to the lot when team is in a bad day - ie : look at Reina pass to an opponent in last match, Maxi missed sitters, Gerrard very poor perfs when the team was struggling in early season, or Soto even losing headers in last match). I find worrying that our two "super captains" fall in this category, more often than they are people influencing others by their good play.

Yes they are getting off lightly, but that is mainly because our manager has been awful. 10x worse then the players

Whilst I agree somewhat Brian I also think the Managers tactics are creating the problem with the players.

Going back to Wolves as an example, Roy set us as a 4-4-2 with Meireles as a RW and Kuyt as a LW, and played with a deep defensive line that continously bypassed the midfield.

Pepe played 30 long balls against Wolves in contrast to the two played in last seasons corosponding fixture.

I said within 10 minutes Wolves had targeted Konchesky as the weak link, and Wolves continued to attack him continously for another 75 minutes before Roy made a change.

So whilst I think the players need to stand up and be counted, its hard for a defender when your under instruction to sit so deep and lump the ball forward at every opportunity, its hard for a midfielder when your being bypassed through that said lumping, and its hard for a forward when every ball you recieve is just about head height.

So for me I can not look past Roy as I feel his tactics are effecting the players not only in their ability and performances but also their confidence.

A lot to do with our poor performances are the decisions on the pitch by individuals. Being under pressure usually makes things worse. One observation I made was Dirk Kurt, the times, by trying to do too much, he ran into the opposition with the ball when the easy forward pass was on. Once the pass is delayed, the opposition are allowed to get closer to you, you firstly have to check, then opportunity for the pass is gone, you have a split second to look for another option, while trying to retain possesion, then you are crowded out by 2 or more of the opposition and the ball is given away cheaply. It got to the point against Wolves, that when he ran forward with the ball, on each occasion I said " he will lose that now, because the pass was on and he opted to carry the ball instead" and every time, he gave the ball away. He wasn't alone, he was just the player I focused on after it happened once. I was watching with a mate and pointed it out, and after 3 incidents, his comment was, " he has to come off" Easy to say, as Kurt was not alone. I think it stems from the will to do something as an individual to try and 'make something happen'. As usuall it has the opposite effect. As everyone  knows, you can run your nuts off, but with everyone anxious to make a difference, the basic simple things go out the window. The simple pass and move philosophy is left on the training pitch. It is the managers job to instill this in the players, along with the counter tactics to suit whoever you are playing, along with lifting the players moral and belief. This is where Woy fall flat on his face, he just doesn't seem to have a clue.

Whilst I agree somewhat Brian I also think the Managers tactics are creating the problem with the players.

Going back to Wolves as an example, Roy set us as a 4-4-2 with Meireles as a RW and Kuyt as a LW, and played with a deep defensive line that continously bypassed the midfield.

Pepe played 30 long balls against Wolves in contrast to the two played in last seasons corosponding fixture.

I said within 10 minutes Wolves had targeted Konchesky as the weak link, and Wolves continued to attack him continously for another 75 minutes before Roy made a change.

So whilst I think the players need to stand up and be counted, its hard for a defender when your under instruction to sit so deep and lump the ball forward at every opportunity, its hard for a midfielder when your being bypassed through that said lumping, and its hard for a forward when every ball you recieve is just about head height.

So for me I can not look past Roy as I feel his tactics are effecting the players not only in their ability and performances but also their confidence.

THIS. ...all day every day. 

I think some are putting in the effort, but are duly not recognised. There are some obvious players that are just not trying are there are some that care more about their wage packet than the club.

The last night, I think only 3 players really did try. Johnson I feel did try to perform to a certain extent, and made at least 2 crucial blocks. N'gog was the only front player to try upfront, but when babel came on, I thought he did look interested, whenever he got the ball at least he wanted to drive forward and attack. His shot was literally the only one I can remember from the top of my head we had in the 2nd half.

Torres, well we all know his situation.

Yes, the players are getting off lightly, and to be fair they should be getting a lot more criticism than they are currently receiving. However, I believe that the best players are only as good as the formation they are in & the quality of those around them. I think that the central defenders are getting a lot of pressure & criticism because Konchesky & Johnson seem to be unable to defend crosses into the box. Also, I think that the positioning of players incorrectly also hurts the squad, such as Meireles on the wing, Cole on the wing (well, not so much), and Kuyt on the wing. Then, there's the likes of Poulsen & Konchesky who you just want to strangle every time you see them on the field simply because they always seem to be responsible when something goes wrong.

However, with everything that's said above, there is one common link: Roy. Roy is responsible for the quality of players brought in last window, as well as the formation, positioning, and team tactics designed for the players on the pitch.

Bottom line: While players are under-performing & should be receiving more blame, Roy, as the manager in charge, is rightfully receiving the majority of criticism for our performances thus far.

I think the players are looking basically bemused by what they are being asked to do.  The manager is trying to make us a counter attacking side who sit off until a certain tackle can be made and then the ball is hoofed.  Cue an 'expectation' that Torres or Ngog will produce some magic from a high ball and score.

The tactics are to blame, the players performances are a result of the tactics.  The manager is there to inspire his vision into the players and the players are not responsive to this outdated style of play.

I've seen plenty of players, some more deservedly than others, receive stick.  I don't think we've concentrated our ire solely on Hodgson.

Yes the manager,s tactics are awful but some of the players are getting away with murder, Torres is so poor, Kuyt , Skrtel, koncheski, all below par even Pepe by his standards was poor.

I've seen plenty of players, some more deservedly than others, receive stick.  I don't think we've concentrated our ire solely on Hodgson.

Aside from Koncheskey and Poulsen who has been slaughtered?

Aside from Koncheskey and Poulsen who has been slaughtered?

Lucas by me.

Aside from Koncheskey and Poulsen who has been slaughtered?

Aside from those two; who do you reckon should have been 'slaughtered' Bri?

I'm sure a quick trawl through the player threads will show some level of discontent for most players; if not a slaughtering.

I think the only player not to have had some stick this season is Pepe.

I think the only player not to have had some stick this season is Pepe.

Thats because he stands between two of them debs

Lucas by me.

And he's been ok 

Aside from those two; who do you reckon should have been 'slaughtered' Bri?

I think a lot could be asked about Skrtel, Johnson, Torres and Cole. Meireles has more to offer big time as well.

Aside from Koncheskey and Poulsen who has been slaughtered?

Torres, Gerrard, Cole, Jovanovic, Ngog, Carragher, Skrtel, Johnson, Kuyt, Babel & Lucas - just off the top of my head, have all received, mostly deserved, stick this season at times.  

Thats because he stands between two of them debs

You're in fine form today Daz (as always) 

Probably, but these were the same majority of players who finished 2nd just two seasons ago and even though terrible last season by our standards, were still better than what we have seen this season.

Most of the players in the squad have got their fair share of criticism at one point in the season but some players can't even be criticised because they have hardly got a game!

I think a lot could be asked about Skrtel, Johnson, Torres and Cole. Meireles has more to offer big time as well.

I'd a quick duke through those player threads Bri and they do come in for a fair bit of stick, to be fair.

I was one of those who was also critical of Lucas but to be fair he is the one player for me that has actually improved of late and his passing of the ball is complete. The one player that worries me is nando, he just does not look that interested for some reason. I would love to see the Fernando Torres we all know to come out and bag a hatrick for tomorrows game against Bolton, then at the end of the game grab the Ball hand it to Mr Hodgson as a souvenir and tell him to f**k off in spanish.

And he's been ok  

Thats the problem OK doesnt equate to good enough for a LFC central midfielder.

But I'll leave it here rather than drag it into a Lucas thread.

Plus its hard to give a proper assesment considering our foothoofball by passes midfield majority of the time

Dont think any of them have performed to the level they can,and should be ashamed of themselves ,but a lot comes down to tactics and team selections.
Most of the senior players must know hodgson aint the right man but cant or wont perform in those selections.....a bloody mess.

If the players are to start being blamed now, why weren't they blamed last season as well?

 I am not defending Roy but I do thing the players should shoulder more of the blame for a poor performances, regardless of the tactics the team as a whole has not been up to standard,
 

No question the players are not performing for their manager or us fans.

Absolute certainty.

Lucas and Meireles had, generally, done well in midfield.  I'm sure there is both a lack of intensity, a lack of hunger and probably a lot of square pegs in round holes.

Unfortunately I don't think the fans opinion of the manager helps.  The fans want a new manager - with a new manager in charge the players would have nowhere to hide.

Gerrard and Torres have both been a joke this season, and sadly they were for most of last when they were fit.

Unfortunately, if they can't put a performance in then maybe a manager should have some balls and drop them off the teamsheet?  Gerrard managed to pull his finger out when he came on as a sub against Utrecht, for instance.  Maybe them two may be better used as subs because lets face it, they've done (pretty much) f**k all for almost 30 competitive games this season.

I do agree that the players have been very short of the mark this season in attitude,commitment, and basic football skills ! however , it's a bit like any job ( and that's what it basically is to most players ) if the people in charge are crap and giving you poor advice like: hoof the ball up field or bringing on the wrong type of player ( or taking the wrong player off ) then you tend to 'adapt' to that way,we have players of skill and lots of international quality,they don't become bad players overnight do they? Gerrard has been a shadow of his self like Nando ,sack Roy and watch the change !

Whilst I agree somewhat Brian I also think the Managers tactics are creating the problem with the players.

Going back to Wolves as an example, Roy set us as a 4-4-2 with Meireles as a RW and Kuyt as a LW, and played with a deep defensive line that continously bypassed the midfield.

Pepe played 30 long balls against Wolves in contrast to the two played in last seasons corosponding fixture.

I said within 10 minutes Wolves had targeted Konchesky as the weak link, and Wolves continued to attack him continously for another 75 minutes before Roy made a change.

So whilst I think the players need to stand up and be counted, its hard for a defender when your under instruction to sit so deep and lump the ball forward at every opportunity, its hard for a midfielder when your being bypassed through that said lumping, and its hard for a forward when every ball you recieve is just about head height.

So for me I can not look past Roy as I feel his tactics are effecting the players not only in their ability and performances but also their confidence.

  THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

are the players responsible and accountable with there high saleries could be. no player is above the club. the top clubs dont stand for any nonsense from players. ferguson wastes no time in dealing with negative issues.so if we get a new manager they are all of a sudden become motivated again. if they have hidden agendas then thats dirty pool.

OK, here goes, I will get my head down when I have done this......

The players are getting off way too lightly...and I will single one out in particular, Nando, the best striker in the world has been nothing short of a liability for this season and the second half of last season.

Maybe its because he isnt up front with SG as much, maybe he isnt getting the ball as much or maybe he just doesnt have the heart at the moment. Whatever, he has been awful, and does stand out as the best player giving the least effort. Yet he turned it on along with the rest of the lads against Chelsea [first half].

Some players arent good enough but are giving all they have [konchesky/Poulson] others just seem to be off form [Kuyt], but the best forward in the world putting in performances like Nando has, for months, is unacceptable for me.

No I dont want to sell him, he still is the best in the world, and I have no idea what Roy [or whoever] has to do to get him interested again, so I have no answer, but it isnt good enough.

Everybody should be dropped apart from Ngog, Babel, Maxi, Johnson, Reina and Raul. I agree that its mainly the tactics that has us fu**ed up but some of performences have been shocking.

Yes the players are getting off lightly. They need a manager who will give them a proper kick up the arse in the dressing room. We don't have that manager and we need one now. Any decent manager would come in and tell half of this squad to F**k off. Arguably the worst Liverpool side in generation.

Everybody should be dropped apart from Ngog, Babel, Maxi, Johnson, Reina and Raul. I agree that its mainly the tactics that has us fu**ed up but some of performences have been shocking.

N'Gog? Babel? Maxi?

Sell the dead wood. Out of date yoghurt would be worth more than those 3 combined.

N'Gog? Babel? Maxi?

Sell the dead wood. Out of date yogurt would be worth more than those 3 combined.

N'gog maybe as a squad player to throw on when needed, but the rest i agree with.

N'gog maybe as a squad player to throw on when needed, but the rest I agree with.

Didn't the guy in your avatar have a trial with Liverpool?? 

Roy plays back to front football. These players were bought for the pressing technical game. If you buy sprinters and enter them in the 5000 you'll get what you pay for. I don't want hodgson even if we win because his football is uninspiring, unstable, unpalatable, unacceptable, utter sh*t. Punt it long to Torres and when he goes then to Carlton Cole.
Why not bring back Fash the Bash and stack the youth ranks with a pack of no nonsense 'come on jimmies' sh*tbirds. Seriously I want better if it takes 5 years of development to get there. ROY OUT.

Didn't the guy in your avatar have a trial with Liverpool?? 

How could we turn him down, Can you imagine the shenanigans?

long balls up are a desperate sign of lack of confidence to run and pass , the team know  this and know they have no more confidence he"s playing too many players out of position , he"s just not the man for the job.

The players are simply not good enough. Torres has said it, Reina has said it, Benitez was screaming for it. (money)  (3 or 4 quality players)  but everyone seems to have forgotten it.

The powerful need many fans had developed in their minds just to get rid of the previous owners at all costs.... has completely hypnotised them into a state of forgetting it.

The powerful desire to want to believe that the new owners will be our saviors.

The powerful love and admiration of Rafa Benitez creating a barrier against any replacement or incumbent to his throne.

The same group of players who were inconsistent under Rafa, continue to be inconsistent and will do under any manager. They will tease us and frustrate us with cameo performances (Chelsea match)  and then let us down (Blackpool & Wolves)  because they are simply not good enough.

Some scream for Kenny as manager hoping his passion will be enough, whilst others know in their hearts that Kenny would suffer the same fate and do not wish to see his reputation at the club diminish.   
The reason for that is that underneath they know in their hearts that we need 3 or 4 quality additions.
Is it easier to appoint another fall guy right now, so we can spend the next 12 months berating and blaming him, or would it be better to demand from the new owners something we all know in our hearts we need.  (investment in quality players) 

The team as a whole has really under preformed this season, but if they are being told to play in a certain system which is stifling their creativity, then the fault lies mainly with the manager.
The players look frusterated out there at times, TORRES in particular, who plays for the best international team in the world, where stylish attacking football is what they're known for, is being forced to compete with two defenders for hoofed passes every single game.
The defence have rightly come in for some stick, at the end of the day, they are not doing the job they're there to do, but the manager's tactics seem to invite pressure on the defence.

The players are simply not good enough. Torres has said it, Reina has said it, Benitez was screaming for it. (money)  (3 or 4 quality players)  but everyone seems to have forgotten it.

The powerful need many fans had developed in their minds just to get rid of the previous owners at all costs.... has completely hypnotised them into a state of forgetting it.

The powerful desire to want to believe that the new owners will be our saviors.

The powerful love and admiration of Rafa Benitez creating a barrier against any replacement or incumbent to his throne.

The same group of players who were inconsistent under Rafa, continue to be inconsistent and will do under any manager. They will tease us and frustrate us with cameo performances (Chelsea match)  and then let us down (Blackpool & Wolves)  because they are simply not good enough.

Some scream for Kenny as manager hoping his passion will be enough, whilst others know in their hearts that Kenny would suffer the same fate and do not wish to see his reputation at the club diminish.   
The reason for that is that underneath they know in their hearts that we need 3 or 4 quality additions.
Is it easier to appoint another fall guy right now, so we can spend the next 12 months berating and blaming him, or would it be better to demand from the new owners something we all know in our hearts we need.  (investment in quality players) 

Quite simply, it is up to the manager to get the best out of the players. Hodgson is clearly unable to do this.
The squad needs additions but Hodgson has failed to strengthen the squad. If anything, the squad is considerably weaker than the one he inherited. Players like Aquilani, Benayoun, Riera and even Insua haven't been replaced with anyone better.

He's just not up to the job and falls short in all areas; tactics, motivation, team selection, vision.

To suggest that Dalglish would suffer the same fate is balls.

Dalglish's reputation at this club will never diminish. Kenny has managed successfully in the past and is certainly capable of a lot more than this idiot (Hodgson).
Football is a team game and its about finding the right balance between work and creativity. We could go out and buy Messi and Iniesta but would still struggle against lesser sides if Hodgson was at the helm because he hasnt a f***in clue and is clearly out of his depth.

I for one am quite clearly prepared to give Kenny a chance at least until the end of the season. Remember that Dalglish has already won more as a manager than Hodgson ever will.
At least it would put an end to the embarassing daily press releases.

Players, sh*te. Woy, Shiter.