Average players - Mistakes to avoid in the future.

....I wouldn't want a single one of them at Liverpool and would ber very surprised if any top 4 club would touch them with a bargepole. Individually, they are as average as you can get but look at what they have won and will continue to win! It's not as simple as a player being "average" - there are a lot of ingredients such as work ethic, who plays alongside them to compliment what they lack, and how they are managed.

Good post.

If the squad isn't progressing next window we can revisit this thread/topic.  No amount of saying the same thing over and over (let's face it, we know the problems with our squad) will magically make a Liverpool only transfer window appear in March.  Seems like a cheap way of taking a sly dig at some players you don't particularly like.

Also, Carrick is a holding midfielder.

I'd take Rafael, Smalling, and Fletcher if he wasn't such a c**t.

Other than them, the rest, I agree are average.

And yes Carrick is a holding midfielder in the same way Lucas is.

If it was just down to KK, I'd agree, but we have to factor in the NESV philosophy and also commoli as well...

They all want the same thing mate - to win things, so why would they stand in his way.  He may not get his no.1 target everytime for numerous reasons but all his targets will still be quality.

They all want the same thing mate - to win things, so why would they stand in his way.  He may not get his no.1 target everytime for numerous reasons but all his targets will still be quality.

Very true, but the age and wage phillosophy worries me slightly, as does the history of commoli - if the final word is down to KK, then I'd say we will get some good players in, but it's not as simple as that.

Having said that, JH has said he has a lot to learn, so maybe we will get a more experienced player or 2 over 25, if KK thinks they are necessary, and they fill the holes in the squad.

Also, Carrick is a holding midfielder.

He's not and never has been - that's why the much more dynamic fletcher plays alongside him.
Carrick is a poor mans alonso, and is a much worse tackler.
Not a bad passer if you give him plenty of time, but that's about it.

WHAT THE F**k??! CARRICK OVER LUCAS?! I SO WISH I COULD NEG YOU! :p

agreed. lucas is never going to be a mascherano, but I'd pick him over carrick. carrick had a couple of good seasons a few years ago but that's it.

some players need to be shipped out (ngog, poulson, maxi, cole, jovanovic), some are good squad players (kuyt, skrtl, aurelio, lucas).

I'd put reina, agger, kelly, carra, johnson, miereles, stevie, suarez and carroll (granted we don't know how he will perform when he comes back) as regular starters .... and possibly lucas, but I would prefer a top dm. after mascherano and hamman, I've come to expect better.

that leaves two genuine wingers, which we have been crying out for a long time. it was a bad day in the office against west ham, but I don't think the first team is far off challenging for the title, the squad depth needs to improve, but with likes of pacheco, shelvey, suso, we have youngsters coming through as well (sorry I just dont think spearing is going to cut it).

Every club needs average players but they also need quality ones and a top class manager. If you look at some of our successful sides of the past you will some very average players. In more modern times, look at some of Man Utd's current 1st team squad:

rafael
fabio
o'shea
fletcher
anderson
ji-sung
obertan
brown
smalling
evans
carrick
gibson
valencia


....I wouldn't want a single one of them at Liverpool and would ber very surprised if any top 4 club would touch them with a bargepole. Individually, they are as average as you can get but look at what they have won and will continue to win! It's not as simple as a player being "average" - there are a lot of ingredients such as work ethic, who plays alongside them to compliment what they lack, and how they are managed.

 Good post mate, I definately agree with all of the last bit and am 100% confident that as far as the management side of things is concerned, we are sorted.

 As for the United players, the Brazillian twin who plays right back will make a player and is decent now. O Shea is average but a better player than Skrtel and Kyriakos and Konchesky, ditto wes Brown. Fletcher and Anderson are both better players than Lucas, as is Carrick IMHO (and he is a holding midfielder despite what Chalkboard Chesney is trying to make out ), Evans would walk into our team as would Smalling and Valencia, I wouldn't have Obertin or ji Sung and Gibson will make a footballer but I probs wouldn't have him now (although he's different class to Spearing IMHO).

Very true, but the age and wage phillosophy worries me slightly, as does the history of commoli - if the final word is down to KK, then I'd say we will get some good players in, but it's not as simple as that.

Having said that, JH has said he has a lot to learn, so maybe we will get a more experienced player or 2 over 25, if KK thinks they are necessary, and they fill the holes in the squad.

Without a doubt we will get some older players (25+) who will fill the gap until the youngsters are ready to step up.  

Also, Comolli has already stated that the Manager will have the final say in any transfers.

I can't argue with the premise at all - I was just wondering: how many (average players) is too many? What, in your opinion, is the tipping point numerically?

I think its a matter of balance, if you have a lot of top/world class players you can obviously carry a few more poor/average players than if you have just a couple . Stick me or N'gog in the Barca side and I think they would still win a lot more than they would lose. Throw Bigmick in at Centreback and yourself in midfield and things start to become a little more difficult even with 7or 8 top class players.

Another factor is the position they play and the partnerships they have, and if they are part of the "spine" of the team I think its harder to carry them than if they are wide players. e.g. a poor goalkeeper will get exposed much more if the defenders infront of him are piss poor than if you have a couple of world class centrebacks.

Same with forwards, stick the Gerrard and Torres from a couple of seasons ago up front and you can carry a Kuyt in most games, put Joe Cole and N'gog up front with Kuyt and you will struggle for goals.

 Good post mate, I definately agree with all of the last bit and am 100% confident that as far as the management side of things is concerned, we are sorted.

 As for the United players, the Brazillian twin who plays right back will make a player and is decent now. O Shea is average but a better player than Skrtel and Kyriakos and Konchesky, ditto wes Brown. Fletcher and Anderson are both better players than Lucas, as is Carrick IMHO (and he is a holding midfielder despite what Chalkboard Chesney is trying to make out ), Evans would walk into our team as would Smalling and Valencia, I wouldn't have Obertin or ji Sung and Gibson will make a footballer but I probs wouldn't have him now (although he's different class to Spearing IMHO).

My god, you just can't stop yourself can you...

A holding midfielder who can't tackle, can't run and takes 10 minutes to make a pass - maybe it's just because they're english...

O'Shea is sh*te, Fletcher is an athlete rather than a footballer, and was boo'ed incessantly foir his first few years at Utd, and Anderson is an 18 million misfit.

Evans wouldn't get in our team ahead of wilson - his positioning and tackling are F***ing awful, smalling marginally better, and Valencia whilst good, blows too hot and cold.

Whats with all the talk about the f**king mancshites? I don't want to see their names on THE KOP.

Joke knee jerk thread. Our squad seemed fine when we went on our winning run before, we lose and all of a sudden its sh*te. OK.

I wouldn't take a single one of those cockney tw*ts over Lucas.

My god, you just can't stop yourself can you...

 I can stop fella, and I will. It's just when people come out with utterly ridiculous statements, mind-numbingly nonsensical nonsense (Gerrard can't play in central midfield, Michael Carrick isn't a holding midfielder etc etc) I can't help but laugh. When in saying it they say it to try and belittle somebody else, it makes it embarrassing to be honest.

 Football is a game of opinions and fair enough (as we are seeing with peoples opposing views on man Utd players), but when people spout utter garbage and try and pretend it's gospel you've got to feel sorry for them really. 

Fletcher is an athlete rather than a footballer, and was boo'ed incessantly foir his first few years at Utd, and Anderson is an 18 million misfit.

Aye, and so was Lucas.

Fletcher is a very good player IMO, but after his antics when they won the champions league he isn't getting near a liverpool team.

As for Johnn Evans, he is hopeless, so to is Wes Brown (will be leaving on a free at the end of the season). Anderson has had a good season, but John O'shea is a shambles.

He's not and never has been - that's why the much more dynamic fletcher plays alongside him.
Carrick is a poor mans alonso, and is a much worse tackler.
Not a bad passer if you give him plenty of time, but that's about it.

He fairly is.  You mention the dynamism of Fletcher and imply (correct me if I'm wrong here) that Carrick is more rigid (ie. he holds his position) hence referring to him as a holding midfielder.  You're spot on in assuming that Carrick is a poor man's Alonso (at Liverpool and Real Madrid he has played in the holding midfielder role).  The term holding midfielder more relates to positioning/movement etc. rather than being used as a synonym for defensive midfielder.

Pretty much all defensive midfielders are holding midfielders but not all holding midfielders are defensive midfielders (deep lying playmakers being the most common example of a variant).  If a defensive midfielder is more dynamic you could probably be a more pedantic c**t (and I will be) and refer to him as a mediano/volante etc. but again a lot hinges on the rest of the the setup and their particular role(s).

The wonder for me is if the mancs can compete for the league every season with so many crap players who wouldn't get in our team, why have we been finishing so far behind them?

Every club needs average players but they also need quality ones and a top class manager. If you look at some of our successful sides of the past you will some very average players. In more modern times, look at some of Man Utd's current 1st team squad:

rafael
fabio
o'shea
fletcher
anderson
ji-sung
obertan
brown
smalling
evans
carrick
gibson
valencia


....I wouldn't want a single one of them at Liverpool and would ber very surprised if any top 4 club would touch them with a bargepole. Individually, they are as average as you can get but look at what they have won and will continue to win! It's not as simple as a player being "average" - there are a lot of ingredients such as work ethic, who plays alongside them to compliment what they lack, and how they are managed.

Agreed on the last sentence, but I'd love to have someone like Valencia or Rafael here mate. I'd also have Anderson and Smalling to be honest.
 
 About Carrick, I think Ferguson uses him as a holding midfielder but I wouldn't have him here over Lucas as he's really average. It's not that Lucas is a lot better than him, but considering the age and form definitely not.

Without a doubt we will get some older players (25+) who will fill the gap until the youngsters are ready to step up.  

Also, Comolli has already stated that the Manager will have the final say in any transfers.

That's good enough for me

I was a little worried about this young players on long contracts statement they came out with, but I suppose that having seen what contracts mean (torres) and having got more educated on how football works, they have changed their short term outlook.

He fairly is.  You mention the dynamism of Fletcher and imply (correct me if I'm wrong here) that Carrick is more rigid (ie. he holds his position) hence referring to him as a holding midfielder.  You're spot on in assuming that Carrick is a poor man's Alonso (at Liverpool and Real Madrid he has played in the holding midfielder role).  The term holding midfielder more relates to positioning/movement etc. rather than being used as a synonym for defensive midfielder.

Pretty much all defensive midfielders are holding midfielders but not all holding midfielders are defensive midfielders (deep lying playmakers being the most common example of a variant).  If a defensive midfielder is more dynamic you could probably be a more pedantic c**t (and I will be) and refer to him as a mediano/volante etc. but again a lot hinges on the rest of the the setup and their particular role(s).

IMO he is played as a deep lying playmaker - he doesn't have the tackling ability to play as a pure DM - and again, IMO that is a hugely different role to a defensive midfielder, and a holding midfielder as well.

What I'm saying is that a deep position doesn't necessarily mean a defensive role, hence we have fletcher playing in a more box to box way, with carrick supposedly pulling the strings.
Carrick gets forwards quite a lot, but his usual style is to sit in and around the centre circle, trying (and usually failing) to spray the ball around.
His defensive qualities are pretty poor, and utd have an odd set up (or had when carrick played more) in that rooney had to drop deeper to help out, because carrick was so piss poor in pretty much every dept.

I have to say that I have rarely seen a player in the EPL take so long to complete a pass, and that's probably why he needs a minder, and indeed, why he plays so deep, when he doesn't hold, or tackle well.

That's good enough for me

I was a little worried about this young players on long contracts statement they came out with, but I suppose that having seen what contracts mean (torres) and having got more educated on how football works, they have changed their short term outlook.

I will wait and see what happens in the summer. H&G bought Torres, Babel, Benayoun and Lucas in their first transfer window when they took over (admittedly they were bought with the banks money) we have had one breakeven transfer window with our new owners, which is an improvement on H&G's latter years, but hardly a statement of intent......so far.    

It's not about having average players or not it's all about having the right kind of players with the right kind of mentality. You can have all the average you want but they should have the winning mentality, the kind of players who's willing to give all and never back down from a fight. If we can have 8 of those coupled with another 6 stars I think we will not have any problems whatsoever.

A star studded team will not guarantee any success. Ask City or Real Madrid. Are they currently on top? You need a team that are fully operational and functional, not just names that sell. From top to bottom, all has equal share of responsibilities and duties to perform. We need a team that gels and worked. We got a manager that really can inspire, owner that are confidently enough will support and foresee any progress that we made goes in the right direction and we got a team that a currently recuperating from a near total breakdown, so that will take time and hard work. I agree with Woy, there's no magic wand but there's always a golden sky at the end of the storm.

I do agree that this team may need to be revamped but not totally. We got some raw and exciting talents in our ranks plus we got some new talents;huge and aspiring. The recent purchase of Carrol and Suarez signaled the attention to soar higher and reclaim our throne back. But we are not the Sheikhs. We don't have the spending power that can really get ourself 11 star studded starters. We only needed at least 6 of them and some major reinforcement in form of good average talents plus emerging young talents, I dare to say next season we're looking at least a top 3 spot.

By saying that, it's time we let go some of our already stagnant players. Players who are already reached the pinnacle and really dropping down in performance. I will not name them, bu t everybody have their own opinions. No matter what they do this season, being it the saviour goalscorer or all rounder player, when it's time to go, it's time to go. Every players deserved some credit, eventhough when they played badly because if it's not for them I would only assume how far back we could be.

In all, every team need average players but how good is average that really matters.

Michael Carrick is a bad example, though if you made me choose between him and Lucas, I would go for Carrick.

Of course I agree, this squad is clearly not good enough.

Skrtel, Lucas, Maxi, Kuyt are all consistent average performers in their positions, real mid-table mediocrity.

Ngog, Jovanovich and Poulsen are just sh*t and should be sold on immediately, as should Konchesky to Forest if they want him.

Aqualaini should be recalled back, and we need to invest in some good wingers. I am 19 years old, and I can not remember a great Liverpool winger in that time. We need pace, trickery a crosser and a finisher on the left and the right with Carroll in the centre of a 4-3-3

                       Reina

Kelly      Carra         Agger    Johnson

                     -------

              Meireles   Gerrard

Suarez           Carroll         ---------

Fill in those 2 blanks and add Skrtel, Lucas, Kuyt, Aurelio, Aqualaini, Pacheco to the bench our squad looks fine. Top 4 at least.

I agree with this, although I would make a true LB a priority this summer.  Johnson has proved that he can do a job at LB, but I would prefer to sign a 1st choice LB and use Glen as a utility player.  He can be used at RB, LB, RM, and RW.  This will help us to rotate the squad and keep players fresh. 

My other concern is at CB.  Agger seems to be our version of Woodgate/Hargreaves..... talented to no end, but always on the treatment table.  If he is out for an extended period of time, I just don't trust Sotis/Skrtel to do a job in his absence, and I think Wilson is still a couple of years away from being a top CB.

I think its a matter of balance, if you have a lot of top/world class players you can obviously carry a few more poor/average players than if you have just a couple . Stick me or N'gog in the Barca side and I think they would still win a lot more than they would lose. Throw Bigmick in at Centreback and yourself in midfield and things start to become a little more difficult even with 7or 8 top class players.

Bigmick corrected himself re: the "too many" quote (the opening gambit of his argument) . ...

The fact is (if i've read you both right) we can keep the same amount of "average players" and even the same "average players", in terms of personnel, as long as we have more top class players to balance things out. It's seems to be accepted that we (as with all teams) obviously have room for "average players".

Anyhow; that being the case (we obviously have room for "average players"); shouldn't we instead be looking at "Top class players - Mistakes to avoid in the future" and if we are. ....

. ...I'm guessing that the downward spiral (due to lack of investment, in quality, by H & G) is at an end; going on the signings of Suarez and Carroll.

By the way s@int - I don't know about bigmick at centre-half but I was F***ing brilliant in midfield and (even at my age) would be a better option than thon Poulsen thing.