Lucas & the defensive midfielder thread

Good post, I can see I've more than met my match here.

I have no desire to waste my night debating whether or not our leader is a leader. He leads by example. He did so en route to Istambul, in Istambul, and after Istanbul.

He has scored in every major club final. How many other players have scored in a League Cup final, an FA Cup final, a UEFA Cup final and a Champions League final?

F**k me mate, if he is not a leader I would love to see what one really is!

The fact is he is a leader, one of the finest you will ever see in fact, who leads by his actions, and not by his words.

He has dragged Liverpool kicking and screaming back into the big time, and it is no suprise to me that since his injuries have ruled him out of the team, we have fallen away again, back to where we were just before he broke into the team.

You take Xavi or Iniesta out of Barca, you can replace him with the likes of Thiago, take Gerrard out of Liverpoool, then there isn't a player capable of doing so. There is no replacing that drive he adds to a team, that moment where he blasts one in from 25 yards, or cuts a team open with a first time pass.

Steven Gerrard is Liverpools second greatest player, he will be remembered by most Liverpool fans as the fella who skippered the team back to where we should always be. Amongst Europes elite clubs.

Looks like I am about to waste my night afterall! 

I have no desire to waste my night debating whether or not our leader is a leader. He leads by example. He did so en route to Istambul, in Istambul, and after Istanbul.

He has scored in every major club final. How many other players have scored in a League Cup final, an FA Cup final, a UEFA Cup final and a Champions League final?

F**k me mate, if he is not a leader I would love to see what one really is!

The fact is he is a leader, one of the finest you will ever see in fact, who leads by his actions, and not by his words.

He has dragged Liverpool kicking and screaming back into the big time, and it is no suprise to me that since his injuries have ruled him out of the team, we have fallen away again, back to where we were just before he broke into the team.

You take Xavi or Iniesta out of Barca, you can replace him with the likes of Thiago, take Gerrard out of Liverpoool, then there isn't a player capable of doing so. There is no replacing that drive he adds to a team, that moment where he blasts one in from 25 yards, or cuts a team open with a first time pass.

Steven Gerrard is Liverpools second greatest player, he will be remembered by most Liverpool fans as the fella who skippered the team back to where we should always be. Amongst Europes elite clubs.

Erm no he didn't. He may have done so at Istanbul in the second half when Hamann came on and rescued any chance we had in the game but leading up to Istanbul he was telling everyone who would listen that he wouldn't commit to his future and that we wouldn't win the whole thing. Leadership? Maybe to an idiot.

I've already said he's a player for the big occasion that doesn't make him a leader. Ronaldo scores in big games as does Messi, neither are the leaders on their team and with good reason.

You'd love to see a leader? It might help you in determining what a natural leader is I'd agree with that point.

Gerrard is irreplacable but Xavi a man who is the very ethos of everything Barca stand for and the third best player in the world according to the awards well he's just a bit part. It's exactly that kind of deluded argument which shows how tinted some of the glasses in here are.

Gerrard last season was obviously going to be important to a thread bare squad last season, that's a given.

Steven Gerrard is Liverpool's second greatest player? I think a few people who saw the likes of Liddell and later on Souness might have something to say about that.

He will be remembered by me as a great Liverpool player also but then I never said any different did I?

When you're not making ridiculous arguments that overrate Gerrard in the world game you're fighting a Don Quixote-esque non existent battle, you're not the only one either.

Im guessing the same bloke who fired us in to the next stages of the Champions league in 2005, the player who rallied our fans at the beginning of the comeback in Istanbul, the lad who practically won us the FA cup single handedly in 2006, our Captain, our inspiration, our leader, Steven Gerrard?

Im curious as to what your definition of a natural leader is? If not Gerrard, who would you deem a suitable replacement as captain?

I personally define a natural leader as someone who would give everything for this club, who is willing to put their body on the line, leads by example, is a driving force and an inspiration for not only the club but everyone associated with it. Over the past 10 years Steven Gerrard has matched and exceeded in every area of those criteria, epitomizing what it is to be a leader and ambassador for this club. I can compare captains of other clubs who have had similar effects on their clubs with one hand over the same period.

I appreciate It must of been handy to of been in the same room as Houllier & Gerrard at the same time when he announced his reasons for giving him the captaincy, thank you for the insight. I suppose his stints captaining the national team were simply ploys to stop him changing nationality as well?

Steven Gerrard wasn't chosen to Captain or club due to fear of losing him, he wasn't chosen simply because he was our best player, nor was he chosen because he was a local lad. He WAS chosen because he was the most suitable candidate to lead this club forward on the pitch in the years following, and by God, he didn't half do a bad job for "never being a natural leader".

The fans rallied themselves, I know I was there. The whole team was lifted by Hamann coming on and suffocating Milan's main attacking threat who up to that point was unstoppable, Kaka. You can talk all you want about what Gerrard did but the man who changed that game more than any other was Hamann because without him Kaka would have continued to have his way and bury us.

Won us the FA Cup single handedly? I must have dreamed the other goals, Sissoko dying in midfield for the cause and Reina's wonder save not to mention pen saves. Cisse scored the goal that got us back in that game but apparently the first goal only matters when Gerrard scores it. It's just another lazy media soundbyte that has been swallowed whole. Gerrard scored two goals one of which was a wonder strike but again it was when we abandoned the team tactics and went hell for leather that he came to the fore.

"I personally define a natural leader as someone who would give everything for this club, who is willing to put their body on the line, leads by example, is a driving force and an inspiration for not only the club but everyone associated with it"

You know what Shanks would have called that? A player. That's a soldier, someone to die for the cause, nothing there that you've said other than inspiration has anything to do with leadership. Lead by example? I take it that's collecting the ball off a player in the left back position because you don't think he's good enough to be on the same pitch as you? I've said Gerrard has matured into a leader but he was never a natural leader. A natural leader is someone who by both word and deed can inspire those around him to be better than they think they can be or in some cases as good as they can be.

Sami Hyypia is a natural leader. His very presence inspired everyone around him, he was loved and respected by all those around him and when he spoke people listened. You don't have to be a raging bull in game or word to be a leader. He's the greatest leader this club has had since its glory days and he's more of a legend to me personally than Gerrard will ever be regardless of how many wonder goals or medals Gerrard gets.

The fans rallied themselves, I know I was there. The whole team was lifted by Hamann coming on and suffocating Milan's main attacking threat who up to that point was unstoppable, Kaka. You can talk all you want about what Gerrard did but the man who changed that game more than any other was Hamann because without him Kaka would have continued to have his way and bury us.

Won us the FA Cup single handedly? I must have dreamed the other goals, Sissoko dying in midfield for the cause and Reina's wonder save not to mention pen saves. Cisse scored the goal that got us back in that game but apparently the first goal only matters when Gerrard scores it. It's just another lazy media soundbyte that has been swallowed whole. Gerrard scored two goals one of which was a wonder strike but again it was when we abandoned the team tactics and went hell for leather that he came to the fore.

"I personally define a natural leader as someone who would give everything for this club, who is willing to put their body on the line, leads by example, is a driving force and an inspiration for not only the club but everyone associated with it"

You know what Shanks would have called that? A player. That's a soldier, someone to die for the cause, nothing there that you've said other than inspiration has anything to do with leadership. Lead by example? I take it that's collecting the ball off a player in the left back position because you don't think he's good enough to be on the same pitch as you? I've said Gerrard has matured into a leader but he was never a natural leader. A natural leader is someone who by both word and deed can inspire those around him to be better than they think they can be or in some cases as good as they can be.

I agree 100% with everything here, Gerrard isn't a natural leader. He doesn't instruct his teammates, he doesn't have the same authority as someone like Hyypia or Carragher posses. Gerrard is a player who leads by example, leads by what he does on the pitch which gets everyone around him playing to a higher standard. But I believe Gerrard could do that better if he wasn't the captain.

I also think a leader needs to be willing to shout at a teammate, if he makes a mistake, or doesn't work hard enough. A captain like Gerrard doesn't do that, someone like Suarez or Carragher does though.

He's the greatest leader this club has had since its glory days and he's more of a legend to me personally than Gerrard will ever be regardless of how many wonder goals or medals Gerrard gets.

I disagree with this. A legend is not rated with his leadership skills, a legend is determined by the duty a player has served his club, be that with or without the captain's armband. And Gerrard has gave more to our club then Hyypia, both legends in my eyes but Gerrard is in the top 3/4 best legends of all time.

He's saved our asses many times over and hopefully can give one or two more seasons with us.

I'm saying that and I'm not his biggest fan.

Erm no he didn't. He may have done so at Istanbul in the second half when Hamann came on and rescued any chance we had in the game but leading up to Istanbul he was telling everyone who would listen that he wouldn't commit to his future and that we wouldn't win the whole thing. Leadership? Maybe to an idiot.

I've already said he's a player for the big occasion that doesn't make him a leader. Ronaldo scores in big games as does Messi, neither are the leaders on their team and with good reason.

You'd love to see a leader? It might help you in determining what a natural leader is I'd agree with that point.

Gerrard is irreplacable but Xavi a man who is the very ethos of everything Barca stand for and the third best player in the world according to the awards well he's just a bit part. It's exactly that kind of deluded argument which shows how tinted some of the glasses in here are.

Gerrard last season was obviously going to be important to a thread bare squad last season, that's a given.

Steven Gerrard is Liverpool's second greatest player? I think a few people who saw the likes of Liddell and later on Souness might have something to say about that.

He will be remembered by me as a great Liverpool player also but then I never said any different did I?

When you're not making ridiculous arguments that overrate Gerrard in the world game you're fighting a Don Quixote-esque non existent battle, you're not the only one either.

When did I say Xavi was a bit part player fella? No need to make things up to suit your agenda.

Also, Since when was Christiano Ronaldo a man for the big game? It was a big criticism of Ronaldo that in fact he wasn't and still isn't a man for the big occasion.

I've defined you my idea of a natural leader also, that being a man who can take a game by the scruff of the neck and inspire players by his actions on the field through what he does. I would go to war with Steven Gerrard as my leader any day of the week.

So what is your definition of a leader?

My argument is hardly ridiculous - that being that Steven Gerrard is one of the greatest midfielders of his generation.

The argument that he is merely a naive scally from Whiston, who despite being talented and an athlete, is lost in a world full of technical brilliance however, certainly is.

I also think a leader needs to be willing to shout at a teammate, if he makes a mistake, or doesn't work hard enough. A captain like Gerrard doesn't do that, someone like Suarez or Carragher does though.

It's not all about shouting though, at the end of last season Kuyt & Lucas performed some excellent 'leadership' duties with Robinson & Flanagan that may have gone unnoticed by some.

Won us the FA Cup single handedly? I must have dreamed the other goals, Sissoko dying in midfield for the cause and Reina's wonder save not to mention pen saves. Cisse scored the goal that got us back in that game but apparently the first goal only matters when Gerrard scores it. It's just another lazy media soundbyte that has been swallowed whole. Gerrard scored two goals one of which was a wonder strike but again it was when we abandoned the team tactics and went hell for leather that he came to the fore.

Well I suggest you look back on the goal by Cisse, and look who set him up on a plate. You also seem to forget that prior to Reina's amazing save and penalty stops, he had a complete shi**er, fu**ed up for the second and 3rd goal.

You make football sound like it is won in the dressing room mate, like everything a footballer does is because of what the manager said in the pep talk.

The FA Cup final in 2006, was decided on individual brilliance, and that day it came from Steven Gerrard. A man who set up a goal, scored 2 screamers, and scored his penalty.

It is known as the Gerrard final, because without him that day we were fu**ed royally.

When did I say Xavi was a bit part player fella? No need to make things up to suit your agenda.

Also, Since when was Christiano Ronaldo a man for the big game? It was a big criticism of Ronaldo that in fact he wasn't and still isn't a man for the big occasion.

I've defined you my idea of a natural leader also, that being a man who can take a game by the scruff of the neck and inspire players by his actions on the field through what he does. I would go to war with Steven Gerrard as my leader any day of the week.

So what is your definition of a leader?

My argument is hardly ridiculous - that being that Steven Gerrard is one of the greatest midfielders of his generation.

The argument that he is merely a naive scally from Whiston, who despite being talented and an athlete, is lost in a world full of technical brilliance however, certainly is.

Pointless talking to you as your last sentence shows. The Ronaldo point aside (which I disagree with as he proved it more than enough times with a manager at United who knew how to get the best of him at any given moment) nothing in your post was even slightly relevant to any of my critique of Gerrard and I've said time and time again I'm talking about comparing him with the very very best and in certain positions.

You didn't say Gerrard was one of the best of his generation you said he was the second best Liverpool player of all time.

Also using the point that Barca have better squad depth to play down Xavi's brilliance was what was ridiculous. He's the most important player in that team and has been for about a decade now. There was easily a time when Torres was more important to us but no one was more important than Xavi, not even Ronaldinho or Messi.

I've defined you my idea of a natural leader also, that being a man who can take a game by the scruff of the neck and inspire players by his actions on the field through what he does. I would go to war with Steven Gerrard as my leader any day of the week.

So what is your definition of a leader?

If that's your choice of a leader, why do Barcelona have Puyol as their captain when they can have Messi who lifts a team.

Manc's have Vidic when it's Hernandez or Nani who lifts the team?

Tottenham have Dawson when it's Modric who lifts the team?

Madrid have Casillas as their captain, when it's Alonso and Ronaldo who lift the team

Chelsea have Terry as their captain and it's Lampard or Drogba who lift the team

All these captains have 1 thing in common - they have leadership skills, they can talk to a team and lift a team through motivational talks.

Players like Messi, Rooney, Modric etc are not captains but they don't need to be, they still lift their team through their performances. If they are/are not captains they would still make the same impact.

Well I suggest you look back on the goal by Cisse, and look who set him up on a plate. You also seem to forget that prior to Reina's amazing save and penalty stops, he had a complete shi**er, fu**ed up for the second and 3rd goal.

You make football sound like it is won in the dressing room mate, like everything a footballer does is because of what the manager said in the pep talk.

The FA Cup final in 2006, was decided on individual brilliance, and that day it came from Steven Gerrard. A man who set up a goal, scored 2 screamers, and scored his penalty.

It is known as the Gerrard final, because without him that day we were fu**ed royally.

How can you say that without him the team wouldn't have been a more cohesive unit? Would it have been the first time those players had played better together without Gerrard? No it wouldn't.

You make football sound like it's a game of subbuteo with one player on our side. No game is won over 90 minutes or extra time or pens by one player. The reason it's called the Gerrard final is because a) he was the best player and b) it helps sell DVDs

If that's your choice of a leader, why do Barcelona have Puyol as their captain when they can have Messi who lifts a team.

Manc's have Vidic when it's Hernandez or Nani who lifts the team?

Tottenham have Dawson when it's Modric who lifts the team?

Madrid have Casillas as their captain, when it's Alonso and Ronaldo who lift the team

Chelsea have Terry as their captain and it's Lampard or Drogba who lift the team

All these captains have 1 thing in common - they have leadership skills, they can talk to a team and lift a team through motivational talks.

Players like Messi, Rooney, Modric etc are not captains but they don't need to be, they still lift their team through their performances. If they are/are not captains they would still make the same impact.

Exactamundo.

It's not all about shouting though, at the end of last season Kuyt & Lucas performed some excellent 'leadership' duties with Robinson & Flanagan that may have gone unnoticed by some.

Is right. Both Kuyt and Lucas come under the "quiet leaders" bracket but I wouldn't say either should be captain. It's great to see so many players with such mental fortitude though.

Did the Matthews Final help to sell DVD's also?  

If that's your choice of a leader, why do Barcelona have Puyol as their captain when they can have Messi who lifts a team.

Manc's have Vidic when it's Hernandez or Nani who lifts the team?

Tottenham have Dawson when it's Modric who lifts the team?

Madrid have Casillas as their captain, when it's Alonso and Ronaldo who lift the team

Chelsea have Terry as their captain and it's Lampard or Drogba who lift the team

All these captains have 1 thing in common - they have leadership skills, they can talk to a team and lift a team through motivational talks.

Players like Messi, Rooney, Modric etc are not captains but they don't need to be, they still lift their team through their performances. If they are/are not captains they would still make the same impact.

Don't Barca and Madrid just give their armband to the fella with most appearences?

And when do captains carry out this motivational speech you talk of? Is it a bit like Aragorn (Son of Arathorn) in LOTR before the gates of Mordor, but done in the tunnel before K.O?

And when do captains carry out this motivational speech you talk of? Is it a bit like Aragorn (Son of Arathorn) in LOTR, but done in the tunnel before K.O?

You know what I mean by motorvational talks. A player who helps other players during the match or talks to other players on the pitch helping them out when thier struggling when playing poorly.

For example - Jamie Carragher talking to John Flanagan constantly for around 2-3 matches in a row to help him

Did the Matthews Final help to sell DVD's also? 

Don't Barca and Madrid just give their armband to the fella with most appearences?

And when do captains carry out this motivational speech you talk of? Is it a bit like Aragorn (Son of Arathorn) in LOTR before the gates of Mordor, but done in the tunnel before K.O?

The Matthews final was more down to the fact that not only was he the best player but it was his third attempt to win an FA Cup winners medal. Mortensen actually scored a hat trick that day and it could easily have been referred to as the Mortensen final. Once again, no one man wins any game.

No Barca don't give their armband to the player with the most appearances. I may be wrong but I seem to remember Puyol getting the armband around about the time as he was being linked as United's next right back and Barca were struggling for CL football. Then came Edgar Davids and Frank Rijkaard of course and the rest was history.

You know what I mean by motorvational talks. A player who helps other players during the match or talks to other players on the pitch helping them out when thier struggling when playing poorly.

For example - Jamie Carragher talking to John Flanagan constantly for around 2-3 matches in a row to help him

Sounds more irritating than anything, no wonder Flanno knocked him out

Sounds more irritating than anything, no wonder Flanno knocked him out

Tough' as nails is our Flanno

I think Carragher is Flanagan's bi*ch

Sounds more irritating than anything, no wonder Flanno knocked him out

Were that true, now that's a man I'd follow into battle...

The fans rallied themselves, I know I was there. The whole team was lifted by Hamann coming on and suffocating Milan's main attacking threat who up to that point was unstoppable, Kaka. You can talk all you want about what Gerrard did but the man who changed that game more than any other was Hamann because without him Kaka would have continued to have his way and bury us.

Congratulations, me too, we can put our brownie points on the board later on. Never did I once deny that Hamman was the pivotal factor in changing the game, nor do I doubt if Hamman had not been on the pitch in the 2nd half we would of been mullered. I highlighted to the fact how Gerrard helped rally the fans, not who changed the complexion of the game. When he scored, I felt a sense of joy & relief, but never in my wildest dreams did I conceive the legitimate possibility a comeback, until I saw his body language. The whole arm waving/Rally cry action may not of been significant for everyone (Clearly not), but at that moment, thats when I thought to myself, you know what, this could actually be a possibility. Which subsequently lead to the whole block around me going wild, that for me is inspiring, that for me is a natural leader.

Won us the FA Cup single handedly? I must have dreamed the other goals, Sissoko dying in midfield for the cause and Reina's wonder save not to mention pen saves. Cisse scored the goal that got us back in that game but apparently the first goal only matters when Gerrard scores it. It's just another lazy media soundbite that has been swallowed whole. Gerrard scored two goals one of which was a wonder strike but again it was when we abandoned the team tactics and went hell for leather that he came to the fore.

I doubt you dreamt the other goal, as you mentioned, Djibril Cisse scored it, wasn't a bad ball for him to latch on too by that Steven Gerrard bloke either. I haven't bought in to any media soundbite, I've bought in to what I witnessed, what his fellow players and professionals stated and what I consider to be one of the best individual performances in a major final this side of the millennium. What other club captain would of been capable of popping up on that occasion and producing the performance he did? Very few. That is what a natural leader does, when its time to stand up and be counted he has done so time and time again, not on every occasion (Which it seems he needs too), that would require a rather superhuman act. But in my opinion more so than any other club captain has over the past few years, that for me, is what makes him a natural leader.

"I personally define a natural leader as someone who would give everything for this club, who is willing to put their body on the line, leads by example, is a driving force and an inspiration for not only the club but everyone associated with it"

You know what Shanks would have called that? A player. That's a soldier, someone to die for the cause, nothing there that you've said other than inspiration has anything to do with leadership. Lead by example? I take it that's collecting the ball off a player in the left back position because you don't think he's good enough to be on the same pitch as you? I've said Gerrard has matured into a leader but he was never a natural leader.

As is the case 99% of the time, Shanks had it bang on. Therefore It doesn't come as much surprise that until Steven Gerrard broke in to the squad we were experiencing one of our worst trophy droughts since the 50's at the time. We did not have enough players prepared to die for the cause, we didn't have enough soldiers. Steven Gerrard proved he was prepared to to take up that role, he proved he was prepared to fight for the cause and like any solider, when the time came to prove he could be inspirational he didn't disappoint there either.

Also you don't consider leading by example a critical aspect of being a leader..? Then I think there lies the root of our disagreement, our perspectives on the criteria of what a leader should possess clearly differ. Im still questioning what your actual definition of a leader is. So far all I've seen you define one by is having the ability to inspire, which Steven Gerrard exhibits in abundance, and frankly I find it pretty difficult to comprehend how one would disgaree.

A natural leader is someone who by both word and deed can inspire those around him to be better than they think they can be or in some cases as good as they can be.

You honestly believe Steven Gerrard does not fit that criteria? Unless you have had the pleasure to grace the same pitch as him, or genuinely met a player who has made such a claim, I consider that an absolute crock of sh*te. If you like, I can provide you with quotes from Liverpool players, past and present, fellow professionals, managers, all who have had the pleasure of either playing or working with Gerrard and consider him to be one of the most inspirational players to ever of lead a Liverpool side. With all due respect, I'll carry their opinions over yours.

Sami Hyypia is a natural leader. His very presence inspired everyone around him, he was loved and respected by all those around him and when he spoke people listened. You don't have to be a raging bull in game or word to be a leader. He's the greatest leader this club has had since its glory days and he's more of a legend to me personally than Gerrard will ever be regardless of how many wonder goals or medals Gerrard gets.

Never did I doubt Hyypia as a natural leader, he was undoubtedly most suitable candidate for the captains job, until Steven Gerrard emerged. Not going to delve in to your preference of Hyypia being more of a legend than Gerrard because that's personnel opinion, however I can guarantee you will be in an overwhelming minority, thats not a disservice to Sami, its a credit to Steven. I have no doubt that Hyypia inspired those around him, nor do I have any doubt that Steven Gerrard inspires those around him, largely because of the fact that he is not a raging bull, and never has been. He is a driving force, the heartbeat of the team and an inspirational presence not only to those around him but to the majority watching in the stands.

I am not suggesting Steven Gerrard is Liverpool's greatest captain (However Im sure some would disagree), not by a long shot. Hes still short of Yeats, Hughes & Souness to me. But to question Steven Gerrard's capabilities as a natural leader makes me question whether I have been watching the same Liverpool team for the past decade. The man is an inspiration, he is a natural leader and he will rightly go down as not only one of Liverpools greatest players, but one of Liverpool's greatest leaders.

Congratulations, me too, we can put our brownie points on the board later on. Never did I once deny that Hamman was the pivotal factor in changing the game, nor do I doubt if Hamman had not been on the pitch in the 2nd half we would of been mullered. I highlighted to the fact how Gerrard helped rally the fans, not who changed the complexion of the game. When he scored, I felt a sense of joy & relief, but never in my wildest dreams did I conceive the legitimate possibility a comeback, until I saw his body language. The whole arm waving/Rally cry action may not of been significant for everyone (Clearly not), but at that moment, thats when I thought to myself, you know what, this could actually be a possibility. Which subsequently lead to the whole block around me going wild, that for me is inspiring, that for me is a natural leader.

I doubt you dreamt the other goal, as you mentioned, Djibril Cisse scored it, wasn't a bad ball for him to latch on too by that Steven Gerrard bloke either. I haven't bought in to any media soundbite, I've bought in to what I witnessed, what his fellow players and professionals stated and what I consider to be one of the best individual performances in a major final this side of the millennium. What other club captain would of been capable of popping up on that occasion and producing the performance he did? Very few. That is what a natural leader does, when its time to stand up and be counted he has done so time and time again, not on every occasion (Which it seems he needs too), that would require a rather superhuman act. But in my opinion more so than any other club captain has over the past few years, that for me, is what makes him a natural leader.

As is the case 99% of the time, Shanks had it bang on. Therefore It doesn't come as much surprise that until Steven Gerrard broke in to the squad we were experiencing one of our worst trophy droughts since the 50's at the time. We did not have enough players prepared to die for the cause, we didn't have enough soldiers. Steven Gerrard proved he was prepared to to take up that role, he proved he was prepared to fight for the cause and like any solider, when the time came to prove he could be inspirational he didn't disappoint there either.

Also you don't consider leading by example a critical aspect of being a leader..? Then I think there lies the root of our disagreement, our perspectives on the criteria of what a leader should possess clearly differ. Im still questioning what your actual definition of a leader is. So far all I've seen you define one by is having the ability to inspire, which Steven Gerrard exhibits in abundance, and frankly I find it pretty difficult to comprehend how one would disgaree.

You honestly believe Steven Gerrard does not fit that criteria? Unless you have had the pleasure to grace the same pitch as him, or genuinely met a player who has made such a claim, I consider that an absolute crock of sh*te. If you like, I can provide you with quotes from Liverpool players, past and present, fellow professionals, managers, all who have had the pleasure of either playing or working with Gerrard and consider him to be one of the most inspirational players to ever of lead a Liverpool side. With all due respect, I'll carry their opinions over yours.

Never did I doubt Hyypia as a natural leader, he was undoubtedly most suitable candidate for the captains job, until Steven Gerrard emerged. Not going to delve in to your preference of Hyypia being more of a legend than Gerrard because that's personnel opinion, however I can guarantee you will be in an overwhelming minority, thats not a disservice to Sami, its a credit to Steven. I have no doubt that Hyypia inspired those around him, nor do I have any doubt that Steven Gerrard inspires those around him, largely because of the fact that he is not a raging bull, and never has been. He is a driving force, the heartbeat of the team and an inspirational presence not only to those around him but to the majority watching in the stands.

I am not suggesting Steven Gerrard is Liverpool's greatest captain (However Im sure some would disagree), not by a long shot. Hes still short of Yeats, Hughes & Souness to me. But to question Steven Gerrard's capabilities as a natural leader makes me question whether I have been watching the same Liverpool team for the past decade. The man is an inspiration, he is a natural leader and he will rightly go down as not only one of Liverpools greatest players, but one of Liverpool's greatest leaders.

Had anyone scored the reaction would have been the same and you know it. It had nothing to do with it being Gerrard. Him waving his arms certainly wasn't significant to me as I didn't see it until after the fact and the chances are neither did a lot of people if they are being honest.

Messi is not a natural leader and yet when you need a man for the big occassion at club level there he is. You're mistaking Gerrard being a quality player and a gutsy competitor with him being a natural leader. If a soldier achieves incredible feat of bravery it doesn't make them a leader.

With all due respect they're hardly going to say anything else about the captain of LFC are they? With all due respect I wonder if Traore appreciated him making him look like a complete mug when he ran to the left back spot and took the ball off him. I wonder if his team appreciated the day before the Bayer Leverkusen game his comments that they wouldn't be able to win the CL. As I've said though it's a role Gerrard has grown into and I have no problem with him being the captain of LFC now, but he was never and will never be a natural leader of men.

Hyypia by word and by deed was the perfect shining example of what this club means. Did Gerrard win more big games? Sure, did Owen? Sure. Do I care either way? No chance. If people can put aside the fact that Gerrard is the more explosive attacking player and a scouser and weigh up each individual on the content of their character then only an idiot would take Steven Gerrard as captain of Liverpool over Sami Hyypia.

Listen to the way everyone speaks of Sami Hyypia at every club he has ever played at, listen to those who have met him. He has something that can't be taught, he's someone who every word no matter how softly spoken is listened to and taken on board.

Once again I have no problem with Gerrard being the captain of this club, I believe he has matured into the role but I also believe the reason he was given the armband was merely the fear that he would walk to another club if we didn't. I don't see any club outside of Liverpool of any significant level where he would be captain regardless of his place of birth.

If you were there then why would you make a comment that Gerrard rallied the fans when it was clear the fans rallied the players and every one of them has said as much? Incidently not saying you weren't there just asking. 

Messi is not a natural leader and yet when you need a man for the big occassion at club level there he is. You're mistaking Gerrard being a quality player and a gutsy competitor with him being a natural leader. If a soldier achieves incredible feat of bravery it doesn't make them a leader.

Yet incredible feats of bravery and gutsy performances can undoubtedly inspire others around them to perform to a better capacity, you even said so in your very own definition of a leader. Im not mistaking anything, im telling it how I and thousands of others see it, Steven Gerrard was destined to lead and Captain this club since he arrived. He has proven time and time again over the past few years why he not only deserves to of been appointed captain, but why he deserves to go down as one of its greatest ever captains.

With all due respect they're hardly going to say anything else about the captain of LFC are they? With all due respect I wonder if Traore appreciated him making him look like a complete mug when he ran to the left back spot and took the ball off him. I wonder if his team appreciated the day before the Bayer Leverkusen game his comments that they wouldn't be able to win the CL. As I've said though it's a role Gerrard has grown into and I have no problem with him being the captain of LFC now, but he was never and will never be a natural leader of men.

Granted in regards to his team mates, but from other proffessionals? Such recognition is a rare sight in football. How many other footballers can boast compliments from legends like Zidane such as, "Most importantly he gives the players around him confidence and belief. You can't learn that – players like him are just born with that presence." Not bad for someone who isn't considered a natural leader of men, and I consider Zidane to know a little about the game. Also, the players may not of appreicated him after the occasions you reffered to (I would put my house on it that they did), but theres no doubt in my mind that even after they left the club they respected him not only as a player but as a leader.

Hyypia by word and by deed was the perfect shining example of what this club means. Did Gerrard win more big games? Sure, did Owen? Sure. Do I care either way? No chance. If people can put aside the fact that Gerrard is the more explosive attacking player and a scouser and weigh up each individual on the content of their character then only an idiot would take Steven Gerrard as captain of Liverpool over Sami Hyypia.

So your including Houlier & Benitez in that group of idiots then I take it? I can almost guarentee If you posed that very question too every member of this forum, taking away Gerrard attacking flair and the fact that he is Scouse,  leaving only his merits of character, you would actually be shocked by the amount of "idiots" who would still choose Steven Gerrard to of captained this club over the past decade.

Listen to the way everyone speaks of Sami Hyypia at every club he has ever played at, listen to those who have met him. He has something that can't be taught, he's someone who every word no matter how softly spoken is listened to and taken on board.

Im not doubting that, and never have. But different captains have different atributes, and different attributes inspire different players. Sami's stature & personality as a man will never be doubted by anyone associated with this club. But over the past 10 years there has only been one man to lead this club on the pitch, and for me that man is Steven Gerrard.

Once again I have no problem with Gerrard being the captain of this club, I believe he has matured into the role but I also believe the reason he was given the armband was merely the fear that he would walk to another club if we didn't. I don't see any club outside of Liverpool of any significant level where he would be captain regardless of his place of birth.

Then once again I pose the question in regards to the national side. There are plenty of candidates capable of captaining the national side on merit, many of whom captain their respective domestic clubs. Yet it has been Gerrard who has lead the side out most times  in the past few years behind Terry. Thats not because hes Scouse, or necceserily because of his attacking flair, but because he was seen as a natural leader by Erikson and also Capello. Or am I simply buying in to the media hype again?

Had anyone scored the reaction would have been the same and you know it. It had nothing to do with it being Gerrard. Him waving his arms certainly wasn't significant to me as I didn't see it until after the fact and the chances are neither did a lot of people if they are being honest

If you were there then why would you make a comment that Gerrard rallied the fans when it was clear the fans rallied the players and every one of them has said as much? Incidently not saying you weren't there just asking.

The reaction would of been the same whoever the scorer was I agree with, but the aftermath? I doubt it. From my perspective the captain of our club was beckoning the crowd for more, and certainly round my area the volume raised up another notch. With all due respect, if Djimi Trarore had requested the same response I have my doubts over whether the reaction would of been as intense.

I suppose different people view it from different perspectives, but I can honestly say half time was one of the most moving experiences of my life, no doubt it inspired the players, but in my view Gerrards actions after the goal helped whip up a frenzy, and in a way I think the fans complimented the players and visa versa.

I can fast see this turrning in to a super fan debate so I'll leave it there anyway. Im not particularly sure how this topic has transcended from a "Lucas/DM" debate to a "Is Steven Gerrard a natural leader" debate to "Where you really in Istanbul?" debate, but I'll go with the flow!

Either way my position is firm and so is yours, seems pretty obvious we won't be changing each others minds on the subject. I can honestly say theres no other player I would of preffered to lead our club on the pitch over the past decade than Steven Gerrard. For me, he is simply the epitimy of what a Liverpool captain should possess in passion, Inspiration, Influence and ability.

So now Gerrard isn't a great leader. F***ing hell because he doesn't go molly coddling every single player or roar his head off at every given chance but when it's needed, Stevie steps up and does his captaining duty.

When Lucas was getting flack, Stevie was one of the first to openly tell the fans to get behind our Brazilian. I've seen him help Spearing through games. I've seen him bollock players when they need it, Luis Garcia misplaced pass on the opening day against Middlesbrough and Gerrard gave him the bollocking he needed.

He leads by example. He drives and drags the side forward when we need it.

He's naturally a quiet man, but when the time calls for it he's speaks up. That's the sign of a great captain knowing when it's time to put his arm round the shoulder and when it's time for a kick up the arse.

People talking about Sami Hyypia need to remember that Sami was also a quiet man but knew when to be vocal as well as when to guide people through. Same way Stevie does.

But he's Scouse so certain people find it hard to not have a go and demean our captain.

But he's Scouse so certain people find it hard to not have a go and demean our captain.

That's exactly the type of statement that destroys debate.

You seem to think that just because he's a local lad he should be immune from criticism - with all due respect, that's a load of bollocks.

NO-ONE at our club should be immune from criticism, from the owners right down to the youth team players.

Overlooking a players faults because he happens to be scouse is the worst kind of bigotted hypocrisy there is.

He's a great player, and a decent captain - but he's not the best in the world at either, never has been, never will be.

That's not because he's a scouser, that's just the way it is, and if you think otherwise, you are deluding yourself.

Since when did it become a crime to NOT canonize a player just because he's a scouser?

That's exactly the type of statement that destroys debate.

You seem to think that just because he's a local lad he should be immune from criticism - with all due respect, that's a load of bollocks.

NO-ONE at our club should be immune from criticism, from the owners right down to the youth team players.

Overlooking a players faults because he happens to be scouse is the worst kind of bigotted hypocrisy there is.

He's a great player, and a decent captain - but he's not the best in the world at either, never has been, never will be.

That's not because he's a scouser, that's just the way it is, and if you think otherwise, you are deluding yourself.

Since when did it become a crime to NOT canonize a player just because he's a scouser?

Got your knickers in a twist have you sunshine?

Where have I said Scousers can't be criticised? Fucks sake, I've criticised plenty of Scousers both footballers and others. So where are you getting off on that? Or are you just as F***ing clueless as you act?

Nor have I said Gerrard is immune from criticism. When he was failing to perform under Hodgson, I criticised him. What's wrong is when dickheads like yourself speak sh*te like he's not got good positional play or he doesn't have good decision making or he's not a great captain.

It's perfectly simple to see however that anybody who is Scouse and plays for this club comes under your sh*te and you can't wait to slag off. You seem to have a problem with any Scouse player.

If it was asked for our best forward in the Premiership, I'd hazard a guess that your pick wouldn't be Fowler. If it was asked who was our best midfielder in the Premiership, I'd hazard a guess your pick wouldn't be Gerrard. If it was asked who is our best defender in the Premiership, I'd hazard a guess your pick wouldn't be Carragher. If it was asked who are our best prospects in the youth, you'd suggest Suso, Sterling and Wisdom and not give a thought for Coady or Morgan. No doubt you rate Shelvey over Spearing (not a true Scouser, but one of our own).

You have a problem with Scouse players. I don't know whether it's to get a reaction because most Liverpool fans favour their own or if you just want to try and look unique. But whatever it is, it's F***ing tiresome because you're talking bollocks. And I find it difficult to comprehend how a Liverpool fan can have such a constant desire to slag off the Scouse players.

Got your knickers in a twist have you sunshine?

Where have I said Scousers can't be criticised? Fucks sake, I've criticised plenty of Scousers both footballers and others. So where are you getting off on that? Or are you just as f**king clueless as you act?

Nor have I said Gerrard is immune from criticism. When he was failing to perform under Hodgson, I criticised him. What's wrong is when dickheads like yourself speak sh*te like he's not got good positional play or he doesn't have good decision making or he's not a great captain.

It's perfectly simple to see however that anybody who is Scouse and plays for this club comes under your sh*te and you can't wait to slag off. You seem to have a problem with any Scouse player.

If it was asked for our best forward in the Premiership, I'd hazard a guess that your pick wouldn't be Fowler. If it was asked who was our best midfielder in the Premiership, I'd hazard a guess your pick wouldn't be Gerrard. If it was asked who is our best defender in the Premiership, I'd hazard a guess your pick wouldn't be Carragher. If it was asked who are our best prospects in the youth, you'd suggest Suso, Sterling and Wisdom and not give a thought for Coady or Morgan. No doubt you rate Shelvey over Spearing (not a true Scouser, but one of our own).

You have a problem with Scouse players. I don't know whether it's to get a reaction because most Liverpool fans favour their own or if you just want to try and look unique. But whatever it is, it's f**king tiresome because you're talking bollocks. And I find it difficult to comprehend how a Liverpool fan can have such a constant desire to slag off the Scouse players.

What a load of bollocks.