Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?

Now I know Carra has his own player thread and perhaps the mods may feel the need to merge this thread with that one at some stage although I'd also like to discuss the general make-up of our back four as well.

More than a few times this pre-season I've read that 'Carra is past it' and that he should be replaced in the side by either the players we've got (Skrtel and Agger) or by a new player coming in. Now I don't personally hold to this and my view over the past couple of years (and for a while before that) is that Carra is still (comfortably) the best CB we have at the club. Now there's no doubt that he has lost a step, his reactions are a little slower and he looks a little heavier now compared to say 2005. I think the biggest problem we have with Carra (and this also applies to Skrtel and Agger) is that his skill-set means he needs to be playing with a bigger, stronger lad alongside him. Carra's strengths have always been his leadership and organisational skills, he's an excellent reader of the game, he excels at last ditch tackles and blocks just when you think we're done for. He also does a good job spotting and picking up midfield runners and generally sees more of the pitch than any of our other defenders.

Now the problem for me is that Carra (for a few seasons now) since Hyppia's role was down-scaled (and then he left the club has been asked to step up and be our number one defender. He has to go up and win first balls (he was always better at winning the 2nd) which really isn't his game. He's a decent header of the ball but he's not the tallest and he doesn't fare so well against the likes of Drogba and some of the other bigger taller forwards out there. He was (and will be again) a much better player with a Hyppia type player alongside him. The problem we have is that the same could be said about Danny Agger. He's got a very different skill set from Carra as we know, he's very comfortable on the ball, he has great composure, can bring the ball out and from a defensive point of view he's a solid all-rounder BUT he also struggles to go up and win first balls in the air so unfortunately partnering him with Carra isn't a great solution. Skrtel takes a bit of stick sometimes, I know I've had numerous moans about him over the years but he is another solid player who is strong in the tackle, tenacious and he isn't bad in the air BUT once again the patnership between him and either or Carra/Agger doesn't really work for me. Skrtel is a quality 3rd defender but he's not first choice in a side that hopes to be up there challenging, at least not for me. And then there's big Soto. Another poster summed him up the other day (soz can't remember who) saying that he's likely to be man of the match one week (against a side like Stoke) and then completely victimised the following week when confronted by pace and trickery and for these reasons he ISN'T a Liverpool player for me. He's a specialist guy we bring in from time to time because the other lads aren't quite up to it when it comes to the aerial battle you get in England and we shouldn't be in that position. I'd also add that none of the other 3 come close to filling the leadership/organsiational mantle when Carra is absent.

Now it's not easy being a CB in this league. Not only do we expect our centre-halves to be big, strong and dominant in the air against players like Drogba, Crouch, Jerome, Kenwyn Jones etc we also expect them to be equally adept on the deck against quick-witted (quick footed) opponents such as Suarez, Tevez, Hernandez etc. It's not an easy role to play and that's why (for me) it is perhaps the most important position on the pitch.

As I see it the club need to go out and bet a blue-chip CB prospect and they need to do it yesterday. Cahill fits the bill but I also REALLY like young Shawcross at Stoke. At 33 years old (I think?) Carra needs to be playing as a number 2 centre-half from here on in and I really believe that if we could get one of those two players in it would enable Carra to play his natural game and I reckon we'd get another 2 quality years out of my favourite Liverpool player.  

So my questions are:

- Is Carra past it?
- Could he get back to some of his previous best form with a more suited partner at the back? (it's not a thread about who we should get in but rather the characteristics we need)
- If you don't think we need a new CB please explain why you think the guys we have are up to it?

 

Carra and Agger is still our best partnership, IMO. Skrtel I think is also a reliable defender.

I think we definitely need someone better than Soto as cover though.

Carra and Agger is still our best partnership, IMO. Skrtel I think is also a reliable defender.

I think we definitely need someone better than Soto as cover though.

Do you not agree with what I said about the Carra/Agger partnership? Do you think these two can handle the aerial stuff that comes our way in the EPL? I don't think they can, at least not as well as they need to.

Carragher is past it. We need another CB. Maybe a Dann-Carragher partnership would work well. Or Dann-Agger

Skrtel and Agger is the best partnership in my opinion, but it's close and I think any combination of the three (including Carra) is effective enough. A lot has to be said for the way Carra organizes the defense, though.

I think Carra reached a stage in his career in which he has to be rested a lot more, and if he plays every week, he'll be exposed. It happened to Sami - I remember all the criticism he was receiving some time ago, when due to an injury crisis, he was playing every game. But once he became more of a squad player, being used only on occasions, again he proved what a great player he was. Carra is a bit younger than Sami was at the time though, so I have faith he can still prove me wrong and have a good season ahead of him. However, I'd be a lot more confident if we had another 1st option to pair with Agger.

Honestly, if we bought a top centre back in before the window shuts, it'd be that centre back and Agger in the middle for me.

The problem Carra has faced the past 2 seasons is speed.  He just doesnt have it anymore, and while he never has been the quickest its really shown the past 2 years.  Pulling shirts, getting mugged by slow strikers etc.

He holds a position where speed is now needed.  The pace of premier league strikers nowadays is a lot more than it was 6 years ago and it shows.

He has to constantly be at the top of his game for that position and yea, he'll pull off a few great tackles im sure this season, it will really take a toll on his ability.

The CB problem is a tough one, he can hold a perfect position all he wants but all it can take is a quick step or an amazing through ball and he's not going to catch up.

Midfielders can get away with losing their legs if they play a different type of game, case in point Giggs.  His legs went back in 99 or something (joke) but he's still been consistant because he changed his play to rely on crosses and finding players on the pitch.

Carra should play a bit part this season like Sami did in his final one at Anfield.

When fit, Agger is our best CB.  After him, Skrtel edges out Carra as our 2nd best IMO.  If we do not bring in a new CB, I think the starting pair when fit needs to be Agger and Skrtel.

If we bring in a new CB, it will all depend on the player who is brought in.  If Dann is brought in, then I think our starting pairing will still be Skrtel and Agger, but Dann will push Skrtel for his spot.  

If Cahil is brought in, I think it should be Agger and Cahil.  Same as if Godin was to be brought in, I think he would be 1st choice with Agger.  

Edit:  I wouldn't say that Carra is past it.  His best days are certainly behind him, but he still has something to offer the team as a squad member, mentor, and leader in the locker room!

We need another centre back. One that will go out and try to win the early ball. Himself or Skrtel paired with Dagger or Carra

Personally would like Agger in the partnership more then Carragher, if it is a new one, as Agger can play well on the floor with his feet, he is more creative and brings an attacking threat from the back, where all Carragher tends to do is lump it forward or send it back to Reina or pass sideways.

Carragher for me is too slow now, and makes generally too many mistakes, would love to see someone quicker and more mobile in the air, partner Agger, not sure who though, but definitely would drop Carragher ahead of Agger.

Agger should be the first CB on the teamsheet for me. He's our best CB now.

I think Skrtel's form towards the end of the season has earned him a starting place to be quite honest. He was brilliant under Kenny after appearing quite shaky under Hodgson and at the end of the Rafa reign.

If we sign a top class CB then I think he would battle with Skrtel for the right to start alongside Agger.

Think Carra is a bit too old to play week in, week out. He will play a lot of games still this season because Agger will inevitably pick up another knock or two.

I think Carra has a season left in him but it would depend on which team we face,speedy wingers will kill him every time , we need a replacement cb like Piquet really but Agger and Skertel on their day are a good pairing

I'd personally leave Carra as a 4th choice, remove Soto and bring in a new top CB, who would be playing beside Agger/Skrtel depending on the opposition.

He's certainly not the player he used to be but for now at least he's our second best CB in my opinion. I think maybe we should start playing Kelly CB when the opportunity arises (cup games, when we're well up etc).

It does seem like a lot fo you think Carra is pretty close to being washed up. I would be intersted to hear what people think Agger brings to the table as a defender? It seems that the first thing everybody talks about with Agger is his ability to bring the ball out of defence and start attacks which I find a bit strange because surely the most important thing about being a defender is defending? It's very rare that anybody talks about Agger's defensive qualities. For those advocating a Skrtel/Agger partnership I think we would die a death from a leadership/organisational point of view if that was to happen. Both players let Carra do ALL the talking and don't forget we've got young full-backs at the club who will need guidance all season long.

It does seem like a lot fo you think Carra is pretty close to being washed up. I would be intersted to hear what people think Agger brings to the table as a defender? It seems that the first thing everybody talks about with Agger is his ability to bring the ball out of defence and start attacks which I find a bit strange because surely the most important thing about being a defender is defending? It's very rare that anybody talks about Agger's defensive qualities. For those advocating a Skrtel/Agger partnership I think we would die a death from a leadership/organisational point of view if that was to happen. Both players let Carra do ALL the talking and don't forget we've got young full-backs at the club who will need guidance all season long.

If we sign Enrique, then him and Johno will be our starting fullbacks - plenty of experience in those two, so I don't think the need for an experienced leader is quite as urgent as Pepe, Gerrard, and Luis will all lead on the pitch with their performances.  What we really need IMO is for one of Skrtel or Agger to step into the role of defensive organizer.  I will touch more on this later.  

When people talk about Agger being a ball playing CB, they focus on his ability on the ball because they are uncommon among defenders.  It isn't because he hasn't got the skills necessary to be a good defender such as marking, positioning, tackling, and strength.  He has all of those things, but also brings much more to our back line such as good pace for a CB, good ball control and distribution, great composure while in possession, and a shooting threat from distance.  

If you are going to bag on one thing with Agger, it can only be his injury record.  It is hard to justify building a defense around a player who seems to be constantly injured, but he is such a fantastic talent that it would also seem silly not to build the defense around him.  

As for his partnership with Skrtel, I think it would be a bit rocky in the beginning as they would need to adjust to playing alongside one another, and would also need to determine who is going to be the one to organize the defense and keep everyone on the same page.  This sort of thing can be learned very easily, but will take a few months to a year to get it to be second nature, but it is something we need to start preparing for sooner rather than later in my opinion.  

In addition, I think Skrtel and Agger compliment each other very well as a CB pairing.  Skrtel is a no nonsense defender who will attack the ball.  He wants to win the ball, and his biggest downfall is that sometimes he is too aggressive and makes rash challenges.  Agger on the other hand tends to be a bit more composed, and uses his positioning and timing to intercept the ball at or make a challenge at the right moment.  

Bottom line, I think that this partnership can flourish given time and the proper instruction from the coaching staff.  It won't be perfect on day one, but I think it could be great in a year.  

Carra and Agger is still our best partnership, IMO. Skrtel I think is also a reliable defender.

I think we definitely need someone better than Soto as cover though.

Understatement of the year!

How's Ayala for cover? I thought under Rafa he was going to be the next big thing, well at CB anyway, since then i have hardly seen him play.

All good points mate (@harrydunn) and I do rate Agger as a defender BUT I don't think he is particularly good in the air and Sktel isn't a million miles ahead of him. this is the big issue for me, none of our lads are particulalry dominant in the air. Big soto can do it but unfortunately that's all he can do. It's hard to get by in this league without that given you will play 12-16 games a season against teams who will test you in this way.

You only have to look at our rivals to see the make-up of their centre-back pairings to see what we should be looking to replicate. The mancs have Vidic (strong as an oxe, physically imposing, great in the air) alongside your consumate ball player in Rio Ferdinand. And then they have got a very similar partnership waiting in the wings with big Phil Jones in the Vidic mould and Smalling alongside him. Then you look at Chelsea, for years they had John Terry (another Vidic) alongside Carvallo (their Ferdinand). Carvallho is gone now but they have replaced him with a similar player with Luiz coming in. Arsenal, much like us have not got the partnership right the past few years but funnily enough their last really good partnership was big Sol Campbell (another Vidic) alongside the quicker more mobile William Gallas. There is a definite pattern here and it's one we should be emulating but we won't go far with the 4 lads we have at the moment.

If Carra past it? No.  Is he slowing down as an inevitable consequence of aging? Yes.  Is he still a great defender? Yes.  Will we have to use him more wisely? Yes.  Is there an irrational agenda against him amongst some more reactionary fans? Yes.

As for our best CB partnership, I just don't get the totally irrational hype over Agger.  He is a very good defender and accomplished on the ball, but he is not our best centre-back. Look at the stats from Anfield Index http://www.anfieldindex.com/2392/lfc-centre-back-carragher-agger-skrtel.html

Tackle success rate:
Carra 71% Skrtel 82% Agger's is 68%

Aerial duels:
Carra 58% Skrtel 70% Agger 60%

Minutes per Loss of possession:
Carra 150 mins Skrtel 110 mins Agger 97 mins

Successful passing percentages:
Carra 79% Skrtel 85% Agger 78%

Dribbled past:
Carra 290mins Skrtel 247 mins Agger 325 mins

I don't understand why people criticise Skrtel unduly yet so frequently praise Agger, Skrtel's name has to be the first name on the team sheet.  He and Carra are our best defenders, though Agger is close behind.  Agger is more accomplished on the ball and better going forward, but has a lower passing percentage than Carra who is castigated for hoofing.  With Carra's career winding down, the Skrtel / Agger partnership would be great going forward, but for the fact that we can't rely on his fitness.  We need a solid, reliable centre-back partnership and we are not going to get that from Danny, sorry to say it but it is true   Skrtel / Carra is our best partnership for now, with Agger playing a few games when he is fit to give either of them a rest.  The question becomes who will partner Skrtel when Carra retires in a few years, I doubt it will be Agger.

I totally agree with the notion that you require a quick ball playing defender to compliment a strong aerially excellent defender. It's simply to give balance, if you have 2 of either then you're gonna struggle when you come up against an opposite attack.

Carra unfortunately does seem to be regressing quicker than any of us would of hoped. He's never had lightning pace but has always been an amazingly intelligent footballer, the problem now seems to be he's lost that sharpness in his legs, not the yard of pace, but just that initial spring to throw in a block or last ditch challenge. Perhaps and I hope it is just rustiness and he'll be much sharper in the next couple of weeks but I do have a worry about him. Think the spring to get to the headers has gone as he seems to be grabbing shirts as much as Skrtel now, which he has a grab of someone coming out of the tunnel these days.

Personally I'd be looking for someone to partner Agger and have Skrtel and Carra as back up, that someone would probably be Cahill or Dann, slight preference to Cahill but I could easily see Dann giving more being a LFC fan.

No where near past it yet. End of, he's vital to the team.