Trending Topics

      Next match: LFC v Wolves [Premier League] Sun 19th May @ 4:00 pm
      Anfield

      Today is the 14th of May and on this date LFC's match record is P16 W7 D4 L5

      LFC Reds Poll

      Q. Should Carra still be first choice centre-back? (Added 11 Sep 2011)

      Yes
      (24.5%)
      No
      (75.5%)

      Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?

      Read 26948 times
      0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
      -LFC-
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 4,231 posts | 1223 
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #23: Aug 04, 2011 12:08:01 am
      Excellent OP Scott and I agree with almost all of it (I'm less keen on Shawcross being the only exception). Carragher's definitely lost a yard and I think one consequence of that is he hoofs it a bit more than he used to (just take a look at some of the videos from a few years ago) and that impedes our ability to retain possession somewhat, although with Carroll up front that may be less of a problem going forward. He's heads it alright but again this isn't a standout strength unlike say Vidic, but he is a tough b@stard plenty capable of putting attackers off.

      He has though never been that quick or that good in possession of the ball, but not all great defenders are and they make up for it by being just great at defending. The tough stuff. Think of all the important blocks and last-ditch tackles Carra's made over the years to dig us out of the sh!t; the sheer determination and force of will he's shown to make it to the ball in spite of his physical shortcomings. That's what he's about and always will be for as long as he's got two legs. You can't just appraise his ability though without accounting for his impact on players around him and I don't think there is any question that he excels at firing a rocket or two up the a'rse of his fellow defenders just to to keep 'em on their toes. Think of all the times you've seen him bellow at a teammate 'this is the fecking way to do it', and think of all the times you've seen interviews of players acknolwedging his influence in the dressing room and in the back line. That's got to be worth something.

      Some will argue that you don't need to be vocal to be effective at influencing those around you, and you don't, but generally over the years the greatest sides have had that in their make up, and especially their back line and I think we could do with bearing that in mind when people talk of Agger/Skrtel partnerships being the way forward. The question is how long can Carra go before his legs really start to go? Some say they've gone already, that he's so slow and hoofing it so much that he's too much of a liability, but I'd say he's still got much to offer over our other CBs even though he looks to be verging on being past it. It's a key reason we should be looking for another top CB in my opinion.

      Haven't got the time to elaborate just now, but agree that Agger is good enough if he stays fit, Skrtel is decent backup but too error-prone to be a styarter and Soto is just too one-dimensional to be able to manage well enough against the different types of opponent. As you say, he's fine against the likes of Stoke and Blackburn when it's all in the air, but he's very wooden and struggles with the fast movements of attackers. Memory fails me but there was a game last season he played in which he made two boneheaded mistakes that led to two goals conceded, typified his weaknesses. All in all we need at least one top CB who must be better at heading it than any CB we've currently got and ersehole factor not to be underestimated.  :)
      Dave70
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 2,536 posts | 76 
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #24: Aug 04, 2011 12:30:57 am
      I think this coming season could possibly be the last we'll see of him as a first choice player, unfortunately.

      All good things come to an end as they say and Carra has lost some of that edge that made him one of the best. I still think he has a lot to offer us though at present but, his age is starting to catch up with him now as we  saw last season, I think that was part of the reason we saw him hoofing the ball so much and struggling more to keep pace.

      As for our our best CB partnership, I think Agger is pretty solid, when he's not injured. Not sure who else though as Carra set the bar pretty high and it's not going to be easy to find someone to fill his place and I don't think we have done that yet.
      KopiteLuke
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
      • ******

      • 21,056 posts | 3784 
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #25: Aug 04, 2011 12:40:23 am
      The good thing is I think everyone believes Carra will be an immediate addition to the coaching staff and potentially a future manager and he'll be here for a long, long time.

      I believe he'll be given the chance this season as first choice, I also believe that his friendship with Kenny will make it easier for Kenny to pull him to one side if he feels he needs to go as back up, which I do think will be the case.
      simolfc
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,165 posts | 22 
      • Thank you Dirk YNWA
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #26: Aug 04, 2011 12:46:10 am
      agger bashing again TKIDLLTK? :p

      I personally like agger, he's a little bit overrated but not much in my opinion

      however, I also don't understand how people can say skrtel isn't up to it

      I've always thought he was good and ur stats clearly reflect that ;)
      « Last Edit: Aug 04, 2011 12:55:10 am by simolfc »
      RC9
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 9,927 posts | 823 
      • Formerly known as Vtorres, Vsuarez, and Vsterling.
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #27: Aug 04, 2011 12:53:03 am
      Skrtel is a good defender no doubt, but sometimes he seems hot headed, and makes the wrong decision, whether it is a tackle or a pass, he has good aerial ability, however when on the ball he seems so uncomfortable, i would like my defensive partnership to have good ability with picking passes and being able to defend at the same time.
      absolutevalueofa
      • Forum Jari Litmanen
      • *

      • 44 posts |
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #28: Aug 04, 2011 01:05:42 am
      Out of all the CBs at Liverpool, I think Skrtel has the most potential to become a solid CB in the next few years if the coaches work on his positioning and marking of players... He's quick, has good recovery, is decent in the air, and isnt a bad tackler... Where he disappoints is the tactical side of things.. He lacks the awareness to read the play before it happens, and the mentality to stand off his man when needed and try to control the situation...
      Atm, Carragher is the best CB we have to offer... Defensively, he does a better job than any other... Agger for all his good work offensively is pretty average defensively imo... However given his ability to bring the ball out from the back and his decent pace he has enough to command a spot in the starting 11..

      That said, all our CBs atm arent of the caliber needed if we are to seriously challenge for the title anytime soon..
      moh21
      • Forum Alf Arrowsmith
      • *

      • 60 posts |
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #29: Aug 04, 2011 01:07:30 am
      Hate to say it but yes, he was kinda awful against valarenga wasnt he.
      KennyIsKing
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 4,628 posts | 129 
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #30: Aug 04, 2011 01:12:41 am
      I see this same question every year.

      OK, and I might get slated for this - Carra was never world class, he was a guy who put his body on the line. Does a lot of diving about, and maybe that is starting to take its toll.
      We all remember his cramp in both legs, and I love him for that, because he gotup and carried on.

      But. lets not mix that up with proper defending.

      Sami was twice the player.
      LFC Viking
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 3,112 posts | 38 
      • LFC: Europe's finest 5 star establishment
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #31: Aug 04, 2011 01:14:50 am
      Honestly, if we bought a top centre back in before the window shuts, it'd be that centre back and Agger in the middle for me.

      Same for me too.

      I wouldn't quite say Carra is 'past it' but it clearly not as good as he was.

      Although we'd miss his qualities like organisation and his ability to read and predict the game so well, if he wasn't on the pitch, I think it's time that he is no longer a regular starter.
      Scottbot
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****
      • Started Topic

      • 9,620 posts | 2159 
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #32: Aug 04, 2011 01:18:04 am
      I see this same question every year.

      OK, and I might get slated for this - Carra was never world class, he was a guy who put his body on the line. Does a lot of diving about, and maybe that is starting to take its toll.
      We all remember his cramp in both legs, and I love him for that, because he gotup and carried on.

      But. lets not mix that up with proper defending.

      Sami was twice the player.

      I disagree, for a few seasons he was absolutely top top class. His performance against Chelsea in the 2007 Champions League 2nd leg at Anfield was the best performance i've seen (in the flesh) from a centre-half. 
      KopiteLuke
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
      • ******

      • 21,056 posts | 3784 
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #33: Aug 04, 2011 01:20:21 am
      Yeah I certainly think that's undervaluing the talent this lad has brought to our team, he deserves better than that. I think he started ordinary and progressed rapidly into a world class defender, had a few blips but came round and has been overall our most consistantly reliable player for many years. You don't get to 2nd all time for LFC without having absolute world class ability and consistancy so I'd be surprised if I'm the only one who takes offense at you slating Carra in such a fashion.
      simolfc
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,165 posts | 22 
      • Thank you Dirk YNWA
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #34: Aug 04, 2011 01:23:08 am
      I see this same question every year.

      OK, and I might get slated for this - Carra was never world class, he was a guy who put his body on the line. Does a lot of diving about, and maybe that is starting to take its toll.
      We all remember his cramp in both legs, and I love him for that, because he gotup and carried on.

      But. lets not mix that up with proper defending.

      Sami was twice the player.
      urgh, I miss sami :(

      carra works for me though

      as in, as long as he's got a quality partner to do the fancy stuff, I think he works well as the second to last line of defence

      he's solid and he's consistant

      u say he was never truly great and in a way I agree with u in that I don't think he's getting worse

      what he does, he still does well and I think he can still do it for another couple of seasons
      anfieldroad
      • Forum Billy Liddell
      • ****

      • 582 posts | 18 
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #35: Aug 04, 2011 01:24:37 am
      I don't think its fair to say Carragher had a bad season last year when you look at the season we had. Whole team was awaful up untill Jan.
       He may not be the Cara of 6/7 years ago and also he's never been lighting quick so he's always relied on his awarness and posistional skills to defend against pacey strikers, but to think he has not got the quality or the legs still to perform at this level still on a weekly basis is ignorant, as the coaching staff at LFC would have identified this situation.
      absolutevalueofa
      • Forum Jari Litmanen
      • *

      • 44 posts |
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #36: Aug 04, 2011 01:27:07 am
      I think it would be a mistake trying to sign a replacement for Carra rather than signing a partner for him...

      Defenders need to defend first and foremost. I dont think Agger or Skrtel are good enough to partner any of the names we've been linked with (young, good but not top class, not completely dominant CBs)..

      If partnered with someone better than Agger/Skrtel I think Carragher would put in much better performances... If we were signing a top top class dominant CB in the Vidic, Terry, Chiellini..etc bracket then it might be worth having a ball playing CB to add something to our backline but atm i'd be satisfied with having 2 CBs who can defend well and offer little in any other department   
      zodak
      • Forum Paul Walsh
      • **

      • 116 posts | 10 
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #37: Aug 04, 2011 04:56:09 am
      I do fear the time is winding down on Carra (though I admit I hope I eat my own words when he's up there lifting the Premiership trophy! - one lives in hope these days!)

      However, I also do feel that this may be the time we may see Ayala and Wilson stepping up and taking their games up by a notch.

      I would rather us give a chance to Ayala and Wilson than get Shawcross or someone stupid in.

      We want backup for Carra, Skrtel and Dagger - we've got them. Let's give our youngsters a chance.

      KopiteLuke
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
      • ******

      • 21,056 posts | 3784 
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #38: Aug 04, 2011 04:57:36 am
      Disagree, I don't think either Wilson or Ayala are ready for the step up at all unfortunately, I'd loan them both out.
      Adryan
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 17,704 posts | 378 
      • Cut my veins open and I bleed Liverpool Red.
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #39: Aug 04, 2011 05:05:13 am
      We just have to accept that Carra is getting older and he can't be playing week in and week out for the whole season in the next 2 years. He also has to accept that.

      No doubt he offers a 110% in every game and he has a really, really huge amount of experience and is wonderful at reading the game but he's not getting younger :( He may have to play the role Sami did back in 2008/2009. Do a great job when needed.

      I think our best may be Skrtel-Agger. However, I genuinely don't think Carra has been particularly poor in recent seasons. His standards may have dropped a little but he hasn't been terrible.

      Having said that, if the team is playing well offensively, there's less chance of our defence being tested, let alone Carra being exposed.
      halofreak11789
      • Forum David Johnson
      • **

      • 217 posts |
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #40: Aug 04, 2011 06:35:45 am
      I think we definitely need a new younger CB (Dann or Cahill), Carra can still play. But we need to build a new solid partnership between Agger and whoever we bring in. My worry (like everyone else's) is how to handle Aggers injury problem..
      I guess we have Skrtel as back up, but I don't know what if Agger is out for 6 weeks or something? I haven't seen too much of Dann or Cahill can either of them play the ball effectively out of defense?
      Devil Hunter
      • Forum Kevin Keegan
      • ***

      • 358 posts |
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #41: Aug 04, 2011 07:33:53 am
      His bravery, leadership, last-minute tackles... were second to none but he unfortunately can't do anything about his aging. Likewise Sami, who I regarded as our best CB esp. with his world-class interceptions, Carra should asked to sit out on more occasions and give other players a chance.

      With the current players naturally I go for Martin-Agger duo but I think we'd get another quality CB from the market as back up or possibly a new partner.
      TKIDLLTK
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 8,362 posts | 158 
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #42: Aug 04, 2011 08:15:07 am
      agger bashing again TKIDLLTK? :p

      ;D not intent on bashing, I actually like Agger - just not the hype that surrounds him.  I feel compelled to take on the  >:D Cult of Dagger  >:D whenever it attempts to convert unsuspecting Reds  :angel:

      I'll say it again, I do like Agger, if he could stay fit, him and Skrtel combination could be crazyamazing but with his injury problems I'm torn on whether he has a future at Liverpool, like King at Spurs or Ferdinand at Utd or whether we'd be better to cut our losses and get someone like Cahill to partner Skrtel long-term.

      Quote
      however, I also don't understand how people can say skrtel isn't up to it

      I've always thought he was good and ur stats clearly reflect that ;)

       ;D Good! Don't be persuaded by the dark side and their Agger flavoured cookies :angel: ;)
      andymac7565
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,088 posts | 23 
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #43: Aug 04, 2011 08:16:28 am
      Carra is like every other player. You cant go on forever no matter how much you want to.
      But to say he was poor last season is a disgrace frankly.

      Its not only about how accomplished player you are on the ball,especially for a defender is also
      about organisation, inspiration & determination.

      Jaime was immense last season in all the games we all thought we'd get battered in & ended up
      winning, Utd at home Chelsea away for instance.

      Not in Steven's league as a player but for me a better Captain all day long.

       
      TKIDLLTK
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 8,362 posts | 158 
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #44: Aug 04, 2011 08:17:05 am
      Think Carra has this season and after that he won't be 1st choice (although I wouldn't say it to his face!). People can bang on about Skrtel and sotis or getting someone new in, but for me, we have someone who is better than those two mentioned and his name is Martin Kelly.

      Kelly over Skrtel...?

      A young, promising defender who has played 8 minutes of competitive football at CB for LFC, compared to a class defender who played every second of our league campaign last year?
      andymac7565
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,088 posts | 23 
      Re: Is Carra Past It? What's the Ideal CB Partnership?
      Reply #45: Aug 04, 2011 08:24:56 am
      Kelly over Skrtel..!
      Week in Week out at his age
      Get Real Lad

      Quick Reply