Carragher's hoofing. Will it affect us this season?

I've read many posts on here on quite a number of threads which comment about Carragher's hoofing and how it may affect us for the coming season so I thought it'd be worthwhile to create a thread so we can have a intellectual discussion about it. 

I believe there isn't a debate about whether or not he hoofs; because he does. He hoofs it when we have no pressure with possession and he does it when its of vital importance and saves our asses, like he's done many times over the years. There are times where hoofing is the right thing to do, but Carragher does it when there's absolutely no need too.  

Will he ever change his ways? I don't think so, he's 34 and he's played this hoofing style for quite some time; it's just natural in his game now and I don't think we can ever take it out of his game. 

I can't be sure why he hoofs it as much as he does. I think it must be his mindset; get the ball forwards quickly and a long ball gives us that. Also he must feel uneasy and nervy when a player comes charging at him and his instant reaction must be to just hit it long. Doesn't think about any other potential option, just looks for the long ball. I do think that now we have Carroll, a "target man" so to speak who should challenge and win a large number of headers, he hoofs it more times thinking he'll win the header or get a flick on or win a free kick. He did the same thing when Crouch was here and it frustrated the hell out of me, and I'm sure other people too. It is the "easy" and "safe" ball unlike a short ball on the ground or a run forwards because if you lose the ball, your more then likely to give your opponent a chance of attacking. 

I do think his hoofing as came at the demise when we've been without a true commanding midfielder, someone who demands the ball and always looks to set up an attack with pin point passing or who joins the attack together. Adam could be that man, jury is still out on him for the moment. 

I do have a slight concern that the youngsters who admire Jamie and watching him week in, week out on the pitch and training, pick up his bad habit; of hoofing it when there is absolutely no need too. This is nothing against Jamie, because he is a world class defender when it comes to defending, but his distributing with the ball is poor to say the least. 

Some people have suggested that we should look for a new centre back so we can use Carragher in a more, utility role. I do think that is something we should be considering, Carragher would make an awesome back up centre back and a great player to have from the bench late into a game where we're hanging on to a lead. 

He is still a top defender and a leader of men, but I do see his hoofing becoming a problem this season. Its like giving the ball away when we hoof it when nothing comes from it, which happens more times then not.

What are other people's thoughts on it? Will he affect our season with his hoofing? Is his hoofing not a problem?

I think the hoofing, or long pass as Jamie would probably like us to call it, is a problem as it gives away possession easily at times. If he found a player in space with a bit of time it would be less of a problem but there are too many times when our midfielders are showing for the ball and it just sails over them.

I also feel it is a problem with the midfield last season as no one and Lucas in particular seem confident enough to demand the ball from Carra, and he also seems oblivious to the simple ball at times.

It's a combination of both I feel and you could guarantee that if Gerrard was the deepest midfielder and demanded the ball from Carra it would not be going long as much as it usually does.

It's a basic reqirement for a player who was never swift, but is now even slower. Safety first ! I see Carra as a good positional defender. A good organiser and a solid tackler who gives it 100% every game. Comfortable on the ball he aint. Under pressure with the ball at his feet, panic mode. He needs a player along side him, or ahead of him who he can lay a simple pass to. If there's nobody available instantly, he hoofs it. The way he probably see's it is, he may give possesion away, but it's not on the edge of his own box. He probably won't change until he has the calming influence of a player like Stevie ahead of him. Lucas and Adam are just not influential enough on the park just now, so don't seem like a good option to pass too. The same has to be said of our other available center midfield options as well. There isn't an individual constantly dominating in there without Stevie. Decent players yes, but they just don't boss the center of the park like they should.

I think he is now more tempted with Carroll in the side.

He's a great reader of the game. Great when it comes to defending but hoofing is not necessary at times. Maybe when a shot was just blocked by Reina or it has come off the post, then by all means, play it safe by kicking it as far as possible.

If it's a random pass back and a player is coming towards him, just play it back to Reina and find open space, receive the ball and pass it to a midfielder!

Think it is not only him that hoofs the ball, Agger sometimes tends to do the same when under pressure or no one is making options, i think we need to have a bit more patience in our play. Kenny needs to take it out of Carragher and Agger and to instruct them to play the ball on the ground when under pressure or try to keep the ball on the floor, because it frustrates not only the fans when the ball is lumped forward, but Carroll and the rest of the team also.

Think it is not only him that hoofs the ball, Agger sometimes tends to do the same when under pressure or no one is making options, I think we need to have a bit more patience in our play. Kenny needs to take it out of Carragher and Agger and to instruct them to play the ball on the ground when under pressure or try to keep the ball on the floor, because it frustrates not only the fans when the ball is lumped forward, but Carroll and the rest of the team also.

I'm not sure I agree with you about Agger.  He seems to play it along the ground a lot more often than he does hoof it but I do agree with you that it frustrates anyone who has to witness it, no doubt.

I'm not sure I agree with you about Agger.  He seems to play it along the ground a lot more often than he does hoof it but I do agree with you that it frustrates anyone who has to witness it, no doubt.

In the second half against Sunderland, i was shocked at how many times, Agger attempted the long ball, normally i feel he tries to get forward or play his game on the floor but against Sunderland for me he tended to use the long ball option, quite a bit.

Oh no! Carra's problem is spreading

Oh no! Carra's problem is spreading

Its infectious

It is a massive massive problem and whether Kenny can replace Jamie with a topclass before the close of the transfer window could define our season.  If Jamie plays with Carroll regularly prepare yourself for long ball football

 Of course it will have an effect on our season if we concede posession of the football needlessly too often. This applies whether it is Carragher "hoofing" or anybody else. As is the case with most things in football though, there is a cause and effect situation playing out and often you aren't actually seeing what you first think you are.

 If we accept as a given that we would like the defenders to hit it long and early less often, then we have to look at why they do it. Mostly, the reason IMHO is that the central midfielders/wide midfielders don't show for it early enough or often enough, and in some cases barely at all. On Saturday Adam showed in a bit, Lucas did a lot first half, buit second half both central midfielders stopped showing in. Henderson had a bit of the rabbit in the headlights about him and was glued to the touchline, while Downing seemed to run out of puff and ideas as well.

 At that point, loh and behold we started to hit it too long too early. My contention is that it's a team problem not a "Carragher" one, and until our midfield quartet sort themselves out we are barking up the wrong tree blaming the defenders.

Your sadly mistaken if you think it is not a Carragher problem mick unless of course your saying kenny is telling him to hit long ball at every opportunity

 There is no problem with a defender hitting a long ball as long as the ball finishes up with one of our players,their is only a problem when the defender kicks at the ball wildly and has no idea where it will finish up.

Kenny has bought passing player's, so it has to affect us if the ball is bypassing the midfield.
It is totally the opposite of Kenny's pass and move philosophy, and defeats the purpose of having these type of players.

How our midfielders pass and move when they don't even get the ball because the ball is always flying past over them!

I'm well aware of Carra's hoofing, although admittedly he wasn't that bad at the weekend.

Where he seems poor at it is when he pumps it down the right hand side of the pitch trying to find the winger.

It's not just Carra, a good few of our players were guilty of it during the last 20 minutes of the Sunderland game, Agger and Pepe especially. In the first half we generally played through the midfield but once they equalised the lads were hitting the ball into areas and into space rather than into feet. I suspect Kenny wants to see the ball go into feet so the onus is on him to cut down the long balls and i'm sure he'll do that.

He has unfortunately always been the same you see him look up and you know its coming and then off it goes straight to the opposition.Its the only thing about his game that hasnt changed over the years as her developed into a very fine CB.

He has always been poor on the ball, throughout his career. As a footballer he is very basic and at times poor in all honesty, as a defender though he is brilliant.

Personally hate it when he plays full back. Doesnt cross the half way line and offers nothing with the ball.

Id have him every time at centre half though. He is more consistent and definately a better defender than skrtel or sotis.

I dont blame him for hoofing as much as it annoys and frustrates me, because as stated he is not a footballer and never will be, its up to our centre mids to go and get the ball from him and we have had nobody in the side do it since alonso was here.

I didn't think he was that bad at the weekend.  I distinctly remember one situation where he was in space, deep in our half and he looked like he was going to launch it and I swear he stopped and thought 'no', and passed it short to Flanno.

Maybe we are looking out for it too much now and perceive it as being worse than it is.  Should we do a 'hoof' count in the next few matches?  Or perhaps more specifically, count 'unnecessary' hoofing.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it's necessary, but generally, when you can keep it on the deck.  I don't see it being an issue as Kenny will have a word if it is.  Long ball is not something we associate with Kenny.

Think it is not only him that hoofs the ball, Agger sometimes tends to do the same when under pressure

No bother with a centre half hoofing it when theres a chance he could be clsoed down and lose the ball which might lead to us conceding a goal, however with Jamie he might have no opponent within 20 feet of him he'd still hoof it. If we want to progress we need to be keeping the ball and Jamies tactic means we far too often will give the ball back to the opposition

Kenny has bought passing player's, so it has to affect us if the ball is bypassing the midfield.
It is totally the opposite of Kenny's pass and move philosophy, and defeats the purpose of having these type of players.

I agree with this. My only problem right now is that Carra might consider his hoof a pass towards Carroll. Also, I'm afraid that this safety measure of his is already a common thing. So as the back pass to Reina.

Just thought I would add a bit of balance to the debate and say over the years we have scored a lot of goals from Carra whacking it up the pitch

I also don't believe Carroll, currently, is capable of playing knock downs or holding the ball up from the hoofs.  He may learn, but at present, every time the ball heads skywards, I expect us to lose posession.

It has always been prevalent and always been an issue. Its simply more noticeable now that Carroll in the team, partly due to the stereotype of the "big man" and partly because its simply an easier option when theres nothing else on in front of him. I think people forget how much Carra used to hit it long to Judas at the beginning of last season. Really is an issue though, Kenny HAS to get it through to him that its not the way we should be playing.

First half vs. Sunderland,

Carroll received the ball 18 times

56% of the time, he had to compete for it in the air.   We only retained posession 2 times, and lost it 8 times as a result
33% of the time, he had it passed to him along the ground.   We reatained possesion every single time.
The rest of the time, the ball was headed to him.  We retained possesion once, and the other time Carroll's subsequent pass was intercepted.

Until we get a centre mid who will go and demand the ball from the back 4 then it will happen regularly in every game. If a simple 5 yard ball isnt on then Carra is hoofing it.

alonso didnt give carra the chance to hoof it because he would just go and get the ball from him. The opposition wont follow him because it leaves a large gap in the middle which we should then exploit.

Its charlie adams job getting the ball from the back line as much as possible, problem is he was fu**ed after 45mins!  I personally didnt notice carraghers hoofing in the first half on saturday and i think a lot of it was down to adam. He had a good first half and knocked it about well.

As soon as Adam tired then there was no option for a ball in midfield, sunderland drew level so carragher thought F**k this HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOF.

First half vs. Sunderland,

Carroll received the ball 18 times

56% of the time, he had to compete for it in the air.   We only retained posession 2 times, and lost it 8 times as a result
33% of the time, he had it passed to him along the ground.   We reatained possesion every single time.
The rest of the time, the ball was headed to him.  We retained possesion once, and the other time Carroll's subsequent pass was intercepted.

:O very suprised at those stats. 

Until we get a centre mid who will go and demand the ball from the back 4 then it will happen regularly in every game. If a simple 5 yard ball isnt on then Carra is hoofing it.

Just not true though, he's hoofed it even when midfielders have been showing for it and not just against Sunderland.

Er, it is true.

Always hoofed it forward playing at full back because he hasn't got the forward mentality to run with the ball or pick a clever pass out.  He has done at centre half, but depending on whoose played infront of him.

Gary Mac, Hamann and Alonso wouldnt let jamie hoof it and demanded the ball from him.

Lucas and Mascherano didnt do it enough.

When exactly did we score from Carragher hoof ball tactics I must have missed that

When exactly did we score from Carragher hoof ball tactics I must have missed that

Fernando Torres goal vs Real Madrid
There are many more examples...

Is there so Jamie usually hits about 20 long balls a game and it has come off a couple of times F***ing wow, I'm sure you can find us scoring from long balls from Reina as well

who care,s if its a long/short ball as long as it goes to one of our players , its all about the right pass not weather its was a long/short pass

Fernando Torres goal vs Real Madrid

In his defense, that was a mighty fine hoof!

Carragher will be a disaster for us this season if he is a regular, his hoofing is bad but how deep he has our defensive line is ridiculous

In his defense, that was a mighty fine hoof!

It's not a hoof, it's a Jamie's Alonso-esque pass

He hasnt stopped trying that since, he must watch that every day on dvd

Lucas and Mascherano didnt do it enough.

I remember quite a few occasions in the 2nd half of last season when Carra was dithering like he was gonna hoof, and Lucas just ran over and took the ball off him.

He hasnt stopped trying that since, he must watch that every day on dvd

Maybe that beautiful goal vs Blackburn (Carra hoof the ball to Torres) that made Carra hope it will repeat again and again 

Seriously I never in my life watch any more "panic hoof" than Carra hoof vs Braga last season. It's very disappointed also as he's our Captain and he will hardly listen to anyone. I even doubt Kenny can instruct him, you can see since Braga game last season, he still play hoof ball, and no one in our staff include Kenny ask him to do other ways, that's worrying.

Anyway I'm totally agreed with many posters above that when our midfield players improve their play and we play with right tactics Carra will do less hoof accordingly.

Maybe that beautiful goal vs Blackburn (Carra hoof the ball to Torres) that made Carra hope it will repeat again and again 

Seriously I never in my life watch any more "panic hoof" than Carra hoof vs Braga last season. It's very disappointed also as he's our Captain and he will hardly listen to anyone. I even doubt Kenny can instruct him, you can see since Braga game last season, he still play hoof ball, and no one in our staff include Kenny ask him to do other ways, that's worrying.

Anyway I'm totally agreed with many posters above that when our midfield players improve their play and we play with right tactics Carra will do less hoof accordingly.

If Carra is playing contrary to Kk's instructions, then he should get a proper bollcking regardless of who he is.

The same goes for any member of the team.

He's always done it regardless of instructions or our midfield.

You can try pinpoint it to one reason (hell, one poster even blamed Lucas!) but it's how he plays and it's F***ing annoying.

He hasnt stopped trying that since, he must watch that every day on dvd

quality

I remember quite a few occasions in the 2nd half of last season when Carra was dithering like he was gonna hoof, and Lucas just ran over and took the ball off him.

True mate but lucas would just give it back to him or give it to agger. Its only been in recent times really that lucas has been far far better with the ball. Him and masc in the middle were awful.

Gurantee you if alonso was in the side now you wouldnt see carra booting the ball anywhere near as much.

Personally I didnt notice it much in the first half on saturday and it was in my head that charlie adam was demanding the ball from him constantly. In the second half adam seemed to get tired and then the hoofs began to occur - and the fact sunderland drew level too.  I havent seen any highlights from the game though so could be wrong, thats just what I seem to remember.

Its the centre mids job to go and get the ball from the back line though, if there isn't a pass on then the centre half has little option but to hit a long ball.

He's always done it regardless of instructions or our midfield.

You can try pinpoint it to one reason (hell, one poster even blamed Lucas!) but it's how he plays and it's f**king annoying.

steady on im not blaming lucas.

well actually yeah suppose I am because at that time I couldnt stand lucas and thought he was sh*te!

both him and masc were dreadful in the middle, on a playing football basis, and both offered us very very little. Ofcourse carraghers going to f**king hoof it.

The season we almost won the league, from my memory, carragher hardly hoofed it and that was simply because alonso wouldnt let him do so.

I expect charlie adam to do exactly the same this season.

Did i mention it was you? Did i mention your name at all in my post?

Steady on yourself.

Well seen it was me who mentioned lucas and masc i took a wild guess

I've no problem with carra's hoofing, but the only problem is it never finds its target. Hoof 100 times and the ball comes back at us 100 times, not to mention the agony of looking at the ball travelling in the air in slow motion. For the team's sake if he hoofs the next time, find the target. He's a compulsive hoofer, Carra must from this very moment undergo intensive training on his hoofing to find the target.

You can try pinpoint it to one reason (hell, one poster even blamed Lucas!) but it's how he plays and it's f**king annoying.

Just to clear it up and to stop kop red having a heart attack it was myself who mentioned Lucas Croucy.

I'm not blaming Lucas and you know I'm a fan of his but I do think that in the past he has been overawed by Jamie and hasn't demanded the ball from him when he has been in space and it does contribute to the hoof from Carra.

Now I also believe Jamie doesn't need any encouragement to look for the long ball but maybe now with Lucas a bit more confident in the first team and possibly Carra a bit more willing to give him the ball it could be kept to a minimum. It did happen a few times last season where Lucas literally took the ball from his toes and I loved to see this as any of our midfield players are more capable of passing the ball than Carra.

"Carragher's hoofing. Will it affect us this season?" - Bit of a leading question that I'm not sure needs answering.

"Carragher's hoofing. Will it affect us this season?" - Bit of a leading question that I'm not sure needs answering.

I tell you what, you put down a better suggestion and I'll change it if I think it's better.

If not then don't say anything 

 Carragher's hoofing. Will it affect us this season?

Not as much as him losing pace.

Shouldn't be first choice this season.

Skrtel, Agger ( When fit ) and another signing please.
Cahill if nothing else would give us some aerial prowess.

I'm just praying we sign a centre half and Kenny is ruthless enough to drop Jamie

I'm just praying we sign a centre half and Kenny is ruthless enough to drop Jamie

No point denying it needs to be done.
Will be the most important decision Kenny makes.

Until we get a centre mid who will go and demand the ball from the back 4 then it will happen regularly in every game. If a simple 5 yard ball isnt on then Carra is hoofing it.

alonso didnt give carra the chance to hoof it because he would just go and get the ball from him. The opposition wont follow him because it leaves a large gap in the middle which we should then exploit.

Its charlie adams job getting the ball from the back line as much as possible, problem is he was fu**ed after 45mins!  I personally didnt notice carraghers hoofing in the first half on saturday and I think a lot of it was down to adam. He had a good first half and knocked it about well.

As soon as Adam tired then there was no option for a ball in midfield, sunderland drew level so carragher thought f**k this HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOF.



:O very suprised at those stats. 

This hits the nail on the head for me, ok jamie is guilty every now and again but it doesnt excuse or cause us any big issues, its a very minor negative about a very good player

Not having the option to immediately give the ball to a CM who is screaming at you for it is crucial, we simply dont have a player who asks for it.

Although jamie sometimes pumps it innacurately long....who cares it has no bearing on the 90 mins of football.

He does it a bit more than sometimes and it does matter if your giving cheap possession away. Also how deep he has our defensive line is a major problem surely u dont need be to explain why it is a problem tactically

I havnt seen any change in carra apart from lack of pace, i just think we are being over analytical of him because we are deperate to see immediate improvement.

if we go on "losing cheap possesion" then lucas has to go too because he gives the ball away and misses tackles, henderson does sod all on the wings ect ect.....

if we had beat sunderland 4-1 like we could have (although we played average) this wouldnt be debated yet.

i agree carra only has a seaon or two left but to point this out is useless, he's been doing it years.

he doesnt cost us goals and is one of the best defenders in the league.

Agreeing with a lot of the above here, this could be start of Carra becoming a squad player and slowly transitioning out.

I agree Carra's hoofing is an issue, I constatly get ridiculed by my non LFC mates... Trap, Roll, Hoof.

Kenny should hopefully sign a new CB and Carra should be phased out of the team, he is fantastic when we are 1-0 up in the 87th minute and the kitchen sink is being thrown at us, but in a 0-0 must win game he can be one of the most frustrating players to watch.

The way I see it, would I trade his hoofing for a lesser defensive genius? No. Everyone has bagagge at least he isn't a criminal off the field or a money grabbing mercenary.

Think it is not only him that hoofs the ball, Agger sometimes tends to do the same when under pressure or no one is making options, I think we need to have a bit more patience in our play. Kenny needs to take it out of Carragher and Agger and to instruct them to play the ball on the ground when under pressure or try to keep the ball on the floor, because it frustrates not only the fans when the ball is lumped forward, but Carroll and the rest of the team also.

No, Agger might have done it the 2nd half against Sunderland, but it's nothing like Carra. It was the main reason behind him being linked with moves last season under Hodgson, and he said in interviews he's having trouble playing this new manaers long ball style. He said he would not play the way the manager wanted, and thats why Hodgson refused to play him at the start.

This hits the nail on the head for me, ok jamie is guilty every now and again but it doesnt excuse or cause us any big issues, its a very minor negative about a very good player

Not having the option to immediately give the ball to a CM who is screaming at you for it is crucial, we simply dont have a player who asks for it.

Although jamie sometimes pumps it innacurately long....who cares it has no bearing on the 90 mins of football.

Sorry mate but I think I've different view on those you mention.

-Not having the option to immediately give the ball to a CM who is screaming at you for it is crucial, we simply dont have a player who asks for it.
  Did Carra unable to look with his eyes by himself for any available option without someone need to scream at him ?
-...its a very minor negative about a very good player
  If he even unable to do decent distribution of the ball to his other 9 teammates how can say he is a VERY GOOD player ?
-...ok jamie is guilty every now and again but it doesnt excuse or cause us any big issues,
  As I said in earlier post, I'm disappointed for the way he play especially in game vs Braga last season and he's our captain in that game. What he did is crazy hoof the ball, yes some other players also do but now we talk about Carra, and he did it throughout that game. Since that time (March 10, 2011) until today it's five months already I'm stiil thinking and cannot find why he did it ?
 Anybody believe it's Kenny's instruction to do so? I don't think so.
 Is it most possible during half time Kenny will instruct him and all players to play pass-and-move and reduce or stop hoof a ball to Carroll ? I think yes, but Carra still did  the same and he's captain, if he disobey to Kenny can it effect other players ?

It's depend on how people weight the name "Liverpool FC" and "Kenny Dalglish", for me player who play football like a mad man (apologise but I just want to present how Carra hoof frustrate me, not I'm insult or not respect him) means he's not respect to this football club, anti-instructions of manager/coach means he's not respect to them and Liverpool way.

And imo if he play with a bit more calm/compose on the ball can result in more chance to our attack and goals, anyway I don't see it happen.

Anybody imagine what's LFC tactic if Carragher is our manager/coach in the future ?
 
 

No, Agger might have done it the 2nd half against Sunderland, but it's nothing like Carra. It was the main reason behind him being linked with moves last season under Hodgson, and he said in interviews he's having trouble playing this new manaers long ball style. He said he would not play the way the manager wanted, and thats why Hodgson refused to play him at the start.

Oh fair enough, all i am saying is even under pressure, i would like to see the center backs pass there ways out of trouble, if there patient enough in there passing, space will open up and midfielders will retrieve the ball, it would make our play more fluid, and more impressive to watch.

If not then don't say anything  

I'm sure you don't mean that I'm not entitled to post an opinion little dude, do you? 


Ah well; sorry if I offended you.

I'm sure you don't mean that I'm not entitled to post an opinion little dude, do you?  


Ah well; sorry if I offended you.

Who said you couldn't state your opinion? Because I didn't imply that within the context of my post.

You had a criticism of the title, yet it's the only one we've got so unless you suggest better alternatives it really doesn't mean anything.

Out of curiosity, do you say "little dude" to try to make you feel like a big man?.  

 Carra remains our best defender in purely defensive terms. If we arrive at a situation where he is our worst and we need to drop him, we'll have some team then. As for the "hoofing", it's about options. If the only one available to him is the long pass, then he'll hit it. If one of the four midfield players gives him a better one, he'll take it. Simple really.

Yes it will...

Who said you couldn't state your opinion? Because I didn't imply that within the context of my post.

You had a criticism of the title, yet it's the only one we've got so unless you suggest better alternatives it really doesn't mean anything.

Out of curiosity, do you say "little dude" to try to make you feel like a big man?.  

Whoa, hold on there fella. I don't know what's eating you or what pain you're in but I can assure you that you've no need to be angry or aggressive with me.

We'll talk you through this one step at a time:

* 'Little dude' is a term of affection - As witnessed in Finding Nemo (for e.g.) - As it offends you I won't use it again.

* "A leading question is one which attempts to guide the respondent's answer." - that having been said... I can't recall criticising the title - I merely pointed out that it was a leading question (which is fact btw) and as such the answer, which you wished to solicit, was included in the question; therefore needing no reply (in my opinion).

* You reacted to my opinion, very clearly, by telling me "don't say anything". That is quite unambiguous mate - I offered an opinion - you told me "don't say anything" (other than what you wanted me to say)...

It's no big deal for me (I did apologise for offending your sensibilities early on) but you would really need to chill mate. I know you feel protective of your baby and naturally feel defensive (on what you interpreted as an attack) but there was and is no real need to get so angry or accuse me of being a big man.

On the actual topic: Carragher's hoofing will affect us this season, if it goes unchecked: how could it not?  

Carra remains our best defender in purely defensive terms. If we arrive at a situation where he is our worst and we need to drop him, we'll have some team then. As for the "hoofing", it's about options. If the only one available to him is the long pass, then he'll hit it. If one of the four midfield players gives him a better one, he'll take it. Simple really.

Exactly, we can point this out as a flaw (and yeas carra IS A VERY GOOD player) but tbh everyone on the pitch makes an error in a game its an utterly pointless argument.

if he decides to hoof it on every touch then fine complain but our midfiled has more to do to make space and options.

Im done with this thread because its pointless whinging about carra, its got sod all to do with us not scoring and he doesnt cost us goals.

a couple of pointless hoofs never hurt anyone

Carra remains our best defender in purely defensive terms. If we arrive at a situation where he is our worst and we need to drop him, we'll have some team then. As for the "hoofing", it's about options. If the only one available to him is the long pass, then he'll hit it. If one of the four midfield players gives him a better one, he'll take it. Simple really.

Exactly, we can point this out as a flaw (and yeas carra IS A VERY GOOD player) but tbh everyone on the pitch makes an error in a game its an utterly pointless argument.

if he decides to hoof it on every touch then fine complain but our midfiled has more to do to make space and options.

Im done with this thread because its pointless whinging about carra, its got sod all to do with us not scoring and he doesnt cost us goals.

a couple of pointless hoofs never hurt anyone

If Carra only hoofed it now and then when there were no other options available (as Agger and Skrtel will occasionally do) then I'm sure nobody would have a problem with it and this thread wouldn't exist but that is simply not the case.
He regularly picks the ball up under no pressure, gives it a little nudge forward as he looks up to see where the forwards are and 'hoof', time after time.
It does have a lot to do with us not scoring goals because it almost invariably leads to conceding possession.

I just dont see it as a problem in the game, we dont analyse the 17 passes lucas or adam wastes, its just a lot more noticable when carra pumps it long, I agree he does it too much, but is it a massive issue, I doubt it.

I just dont see it as a problem in the game, we dont analyse the 17 passes lucas or adam wastes, its just a lot more noticable when carra pumps it long, I agree he does it too much, but is it a massive issue, I doubt it.

In the Braga game I was screaming at him to pack it in or for Kenny to tell him to and very nearly threw my remote through the TV infrustration. I think that game made me more aware of it and now he winds me up every time I see him nudge the ball forward in preparation for it!

Off-topic, nice sig. I hadn't noticed it before.

I just dont see it as a problem in the game, we dont analyse the 17 passes lucas or adam wastes, its just a lot more noticable when carra pumps it long, I agree he does it too much, but is it a massive issue, I doubt it.

It's not an issue when he has no other out, I think the frustration comes about because he has other options and he still uses it and as for the not analysing Lucas/Adam, I think their respective player threads beg to differ.

In the Braga game I was screaming at him to pack it in or for Kenny to tell him to and very nearly threw my remote through the TV infrustration. I think that game made me more aware of it and now he winds me up every time I see him nudge the ball forward in preparation for it!

Off-topic, nice sig. I hadn't noticed it before.

Cheers mate

I think its exactly how you said it..frustration.. you know when he is going to do it and you dont want him to, it does stand out more than an intercepted pass lets say so I can see where its coming from.

But as an overall effect on a game I think it does nothing, apart from frustrate.

I get the same frustration when Kuyt is out wide or manages to beat his man only to scuff the ball across the floor or hit the first man ...every time

Anyone that doesn't think giving away cheap possession and having our defensive line on the edge of our box isn't a problem then very hard to argue with them. Carragher will be a massive problem this season

I get the same frustration when Kuyt is out wide or manages to beat his man only to scuff the ball across the floor or hit the first man ...every time

but surely it would be easier for Carra to stop hoofing and find a short pass to someone, than for Kuyt to improve on his wing play... I see what your saying but, Kuyt not being the best crosser in the game is a flaw in his game, Carra hoofing the ball up the pitch is more of a tactic in his game... (I'm only talking about the times when he does it when he has other options) Hopefully this will improve when we have Gerrard back and when Adam has settled down more but it doesn't seem like lack of options is the only reason he does it.

IMO Carra hoofing will effect us, we loose possession most of the time when he does it. Getting the ball on the ground and passing it is a much more attractive and effective way for Liverpool FC to play.

but surely it would be easier for Carra to stop hoofing and find a short pass to someone, than for Kuyt to improve on his wing play... I see what your saying but, Kuyt not being the best crosser in the game is a flaw in his game, Carra hoofing the ball up the pitch is more of a tactic in his game... (I'm only talking about the times when he does it when he has other options) Hopefully this will improve when we have Gerrard back and when Adam has settled down more but it doesn't seem like lack of options is the only reason he does it.

IMO Carra hoofing will effect us, we loose possession most of the time when he does it. Getting the ball on the ground and passing it is a much more attractive and effective way for Liverpool FC to play.

Out of the 100's of passes in a game its probably 5 passes (or attempted ones ) that he fails with, im not fussed about it, he needs to keep the ball on the floor yes but i dont think on the overall result of the game it has any more effect than kuyt screwing up a cross, its just a crap pass, we should still bang 4 past sunderland ect.

but surely it would be easier for Carra to stop hoofing and find a short pass to someone, than for Kuyt to improve on his wing play... I see what your saying but, Kuyt not being the best crosser in the game is a flaw in his game, Carra hoofing the ball up the pitch is more of a tactic in his game...

At the same time, Carra's hoof is in no way a tactic, it's a hopeless hoof that generally 9 times out of 10 does not find a man. As for Kuyt he's a grafter and will always have a place on our team, he also provides important goals too.

At the same time, Carra's hoof is in no way a tactic, it's a hopeless hoof that generally 9 times out of 10 does not find a man. As for Kuyt he's a grafter and will always have a place on our team, he also provides important goals too.

It seems to be a tactic to get the ball up the field for Carra, not a good one no. I used the word tactic because its not exactly a flaw in his game because he can make a short pass, just chooses not to, so I don't see why he can't just stop doing it.

Kuyt would be in my starting 11 every week atm. 

just to note i wasnt having a go at kuyt, its just to point out that both players can make the same errors and they both have no effect on the final outcome of the game.

i too would have dirk in the team, and i too would have carra in the team, he is one of the best defenders in the league without a doubt in my mind.

Yep, Carra would be in my 11 too, hoof or no hoof. Would much rather it be no hoof though  

As for the "hoofing", it's about options. If the only one available to him is the long pass, then he'll hit it. If one of the four midfield players gives him a better one, he'll take it. Simple really.

Disagree mick.

There have been countless times where I've seen Carra ignore midfield players in space showing for the ball, Lucas in particular,  only to hoof it up the pitch.

Now I've already stated that the midfield players should take some of the blame for this by not being more aggressive and demanding the ball as if it was Gerrard looking for the pass instead of some of our other midfielders you could bet 9 times out of 10 Jamie would pass the ball to him.

It's a problem in Jamie's game which is detrimental to the team but a more dominant midfield could help to make it happen less often and to be fair to Lucas he did take and demand the ball more last season than he has in the past.

Now that Carroll is in the team, Carragher will probably hoof even more, he probably sees it as the easy way out when it actually most of the time gives the ball back to the opposisition, it doesn't half annoy me sometimes though when you need a goal and we start passing it around at the back gaining a bit of momentum and then he does it

Will it affect us this season?

Not if we sign Cahill

I do think his lack of pace therefore spreading of our entire team due to having to sit deeper compounds the problem of his hoofing. If he were trying to hit a longer ball from 20 yards further up the pitch and we'd condensed play there would be more chance of us latching on to the flick or second ball. One of the other problems is that even when he does find his man with a long ball he's totally isolated due to the fact the midfield are stationed on the halfway line if not sometimes further back and this above the hoofing is the reason I believe we should look to replace Carra. We surrender far too much of an advantage to cover one obvious flaw and this must change in my honest opinion, Carra as back up would be a great place to be with Skrtel probably getting quite annoyed after playing as much as he did last year.

As Tony Blair once said: "We need to be tough on hoofing, tough on the causes of hoofing."

Bigmick is right, we really do need to look at the causes; the reasons behind why the Hoofmaster General feels the need.

Midfield:

* As 'Luke and others have pointed out: We play a deep line in defence. I'm going to say that this can, to a huge degree, be attributed to Jamie's lack of speed. Play higher up the pitch and Jamie just doesn't have the speed to cover the break. Our central midfielders therefore, particularly in a two, have to cover a lot of ground to 'show' for the short pass. When playing against a three the two are easily picked up; meaning, often, that they don't have space and as Carra hasn't the ability to pick and accurate pass in tight spaces. Result - Hoof.

However the other truth of the matter (and we've all witnessed it) is that Jamie has and does hoof even when players are 'showing'.

Carroll:

* It has been written that Carroll's inclusion is the reason behind the hoof but... the fact is Jamie was hoofing, big time, even when Torres was here but as Witto points out; with Carroll, Jamie has even more reason (in his mind) to hoof. This past two season's, in particular have seen a disproportionate rise in Jamie's "long pass"... Which brings me back to our midfield...

When Alonso played alongside Masch in a three we always showed, we'd always an out - invariably Xabi. It is no coincidence, in my opinion, that we saw less of the hoof*/long pass* (* delete as preferred).
 
Lucas and Masch, in my opinion, were too similar in style, passing ability and positional play - the 'out' just wasn't there.
 
Under Hodgson, with two in the centre of midfield; the 'out' was never there.

Last week, still with two in the centre of midfield, Sunderland played three and pressed high in the second half against a two that tired (understandably) after chasing three players all over the park; the 'out' wasn't there.

In conclusion, (to my mind anyhow): Jamie hoofs  because: a) we play a deep line, b) he hasn't the ability to pick a short pass, where space is at a premium and c) two centre midfielders against three.

So, in my opinion, until we can play a higher line, (and or), play three in the centre; sadly we'll see the hoof on a regular basis. If playing a higher line means we sign someone quicker and have to drop Jamie; so be it. If, however, we don't drop him; we need to be playing a three - the space between defence and our forwards is just too hard for two players (any two) to cover for  90 minutes.