Foreign owners discuss end to relegation

Foreign owners discuss end to relegation, says League Managers chief

• Americans 'looking at having more of a franchise situation'
• Aston Villa surprised and confused by Richard Bevan remarks

Owen Gibson and Stuart James
guardian.co.uk, Monday 17 October 2011 21.24 BST

The chief executive of the League Managers Association has warned that owners of a number of Premier League clubs are talking about trying to scrap promotion and relegation in order to safeguard their investments.

"There are a number of overseas-owned clubs already talking about bringing about the avoidance of promotion and relegation in the Premier League," said Richard Bevan. "If we have four or five more new owners, that could happen."

He said he understood that talks had taken place among "American owners and some of the Asian owners as well".

With Stan Kroenke's move to become the majority owner of Arsenal in the summer, the north London club joined Manchester United, Liverpool, Sunderland and Aston Villa in American hands.

"If you're looking at sport all around the world and you look at sport owners trying to work out how to invest and make money, you'll find that most of them like the idea of franchises and if you take, in particular, the Americans, there have without doubt been a number of them looking at possibly having more of a franchise situation," said Bevan, who had been speaking at the annual conference of the Professional Players Federation.

"That would mean no promotion and relegation. My point is not whether this is good or bad, although personally it would not be good news for English football. My point is to ensure that the FA [Football Association] is strong enough to ensure the principles on which our clubs are run."

Last week the managing director of Liverpool, Ian Ayre, said pressure would build for clubs to be able to sell their own overseas TV rights in order to be able to compete effectively with overseas rivals.

The new wave of US owners, who look on Premier League football as an investment rather than a vanity project, is expected to look overseas for new revenue streams, although other clubs quickly moved to distance themselves from Ayre's comments.

Bevan said the pressure from Premier League clubs meant it was important that government proposals to introduce an over-arching licensing system administered by the FA were introduced.

"If I was an American owner and owned a football club, or if I was an Indian owner, I might be thinking that I would like to get rid of promotion and relegation because my shares would go up," he said. "That's why the role the FA plays has to be a much stronger one that it has been in the past.

"The problem with the RFU [Rugby Football Union] and the ECB [England and Wales Cricket Board] and the FA is that they are institutionalised and institutions, when they're around successful world business people, often move a bit slower."

The board of Aston Villa, owned by the American Randy Lerner, said they were confused and surprised by Bevan's remarks about unnamed American and Asian owners. "If he intended this group to specifically include Aston Villa, as could be inferred by his comments, then we would ask him to confirm as much. We might also add that the founding of the Football League in 1888 was led by a previous chairman of Aston Villa, William McGregor." It is understood that Villa have not been involved in any discussions of the sort described by Bevan and have no intention of any such involvement.

Premier League insiders insisted there was little appetite for any move to end promotion and relegation. It has not been debated for two years, when Bolton Wanderers put forward a suggestion for a two-tier Premier League with limited promotion and relegation, which was roundly rejected.

Clubs bought into the traditional league structure for competition and commercial reasons, the insiders said, and pointed out that the FA did not necessarily require new powers to block any move to do away with it.

Even if 14 of the 20 clubs voted to abandon promotion and relegation, the FA could intervene and use its "golden share" to prevent it from going ahead.

Stoke City's chairman, Peter Coates, spoke out strongly on Monday against scrapping relegation and promotion. "I'd be horrified to think that was someone's long-term agenda," he told the Associated Press. "Although it happens in America with franchises, our traditions are totally different … it would be an absolutely unthinkable thing to happen if we wanted to try and close that particular [relegation] door. It would be so bad for the game and would do it immense damage.

"You'd take away the thing that's so important: the opportunity to go up and down which creates a mass amount of interest. There's as much interest in the relegation battle as the title battle."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/oct/17/premier-league-owners-relegation

Won't ever happen and theres that word I F***ing hate "Franchise".

No way would I want this ever to happen as the whole basis of the league structure is that any team, in theory, could achieve promotion to the top division.

Well, it is certainly not a coincidence that the overseas TV rights and the no-relegation clause discussions have surfaced in such a short time frame ... It is not really a big secret that the idea of the European Super League has been resurrected, and I have a feeling that our owners are part of those (preliminary) discussions ... It is probably only a bargaining tool for the owners to get some further concessions from the League, but the days when the Premier League and the Football Association bureaucrats were imposing their will are definitely over ...

When did Everton get a foreign owner?

And another death knell sounds.  This and/or a European Super League is nothing more than giving the big players more control. 

 If you take away the relegation.promotion what incentives will clubs have to compete.I cannot see this ever happening.

If you take away the relegation.promotion what incentives will clubs have to compete.

The money, of course. The better league position would bring more money.

I cannot see this ever happening.

In England, probably never. In the European Super League, in 10-15 years. Maybe even sooner.

Venkys.

You can shove your franchises up your F***ing arse.

What's the point in playing the game if we're taking the competiveness out of it.

A load of F***ing sh*te.

I love the promotion and relegation aspect of football.  It makes for better competition and gives lower league teams a target to aim for.   The American sports model of divisions based on location is outdated and flawed. Turning teams into anything close to a franchise goes against all forms of competition and their is no way it will happen.

I am embarrased that this idea seems to be coming from US owners.  Owners of American sports teams have already ruined  our sports leagues due to their greed and improper management and I speak from direct experience. The arrogance of the American  owners is appalling in that they believe their model for the structure and business of sport is anything close to good.  Our professional sports leagues are a joke. The divisional structures are a joke. The revenues structures are a joke. They prefer to F**k the supporters and the real fans by overcharging for tickets, put as little back into the team and make money from advertising and TV rights.  Certain leagues like the MLB have owners who will continue to spend no money into the team yet make money from sponsorship, advertising and revenue sharing.  When the league is structured for the owners to make money regardless of winning or losing, that is inherently flawed.

I grew up a Cleveland Browns fan. The Browns were one of the original football clubs with a long history and tradition. They had a record of 40 years straight of home sell-outs in an 80,000 seat stadium. They had the largest fan base in all of NFL football. They had multiple championships and a history of Hall Of Fame players, including the best running back to ever play football.

Then due to mismanagement and f***in greed from a traitor, backstabbing, piece of sh*t owner he moved the team to Baltimore and ripped my heart out and betrayed millions of loyal dedicated supporters, all because of MONEY!!!!   

If they do away with relegation and promotion I will just lose all faith in sports.  We already ruined our own sports and we have no right to ruin your game. 

Its f***in embarrassing and I know the other Yanks on this forum will agree.

F**k this sh*t.

Wtf is this yanks up to? F**k e'm with their franchise ideas and all, but I honestly don't think they'll get it right.

Yeah right "bigv", F**k this sh*t.

What you got left if there's no hope for Championship and other football league teams.

We be a disaster for some big clubs outside the top division like Leeds, West Ham etc

No chance!

This is insane. I love the relegation battle, it's epic.

Get fu**ed.

The best football is played in May in the play offs!

Get fu**ed.

The best football is played in May in the play offs!

Do you realize that you have just supported the foreign owners' concept ?

Do you realize that you have just supported the foreign owners' concept ?

No, you thick dickhead.

Scrapping promotion and relegation means no play offs for 3rd to 6th in the Championship to get promoted to the Premier League.

I'm very open for new ideas and models of organizations in football but this is just silly and not going to happen in the foresee future. The American model is good for the business of a few big clubs because it's based in monopolistic powers, but it goes against the open nature of football that made it so popular.

Changing from one way to the other is too much of a drastic change to be even considered. Football could learn a lot of stuff from American sports but putting an end to the relegation system simply shouldn't be an option IMO.

No, you thick dickhead.

Scrapping promotion and relegation means no play offs for 3rd to 6th in the Championship to get promoted to the Premier League.

Calm down and watch you language. Just because you are a mod, it doesn't give you the right to insult people. The two basic principles of the North American collective sports competition model are the no-relegation clause and the play-offs. So basically, if you really like the excitement of the play-offs, you are indeed promoting (at least) a part of their competition model. Next time, think about it, before jumping the gun.

Calm down and watch you language. Just because you are a mod, it doesn't give you the right to insult people. The two basic principles of the North American collective sports competition model are the no-relegation clause and the play-offs. So basically, if you really like the excitement of the play-offs, you are indeed promoting (at least) a part of their competition model. Next time, think about it, before jumping the gun.

With no relegation or promotion, there won't be play offs. Duh. The Championship would be just a first past the post format with no reward of progression, just a trophy. It takes away from some of the best battles on the pitch you will see throughout a full season.

With no relegation or promotion, there won't be play offs. Duh. The Championship would be just a first past the post format with no reward of progression, just a trophy. It takes away from some of the best battles on the pitch you will see throughout a full season.

Really? Are you telling me that you don't follow any North American sports? ALL the North American sports leagues have the no relegation clause AND the play-offs. By the way, I am firmly against the play-offs in football. It is an American invention that has no place in our sport. Everyone should be rewarded according to their success in the regular season.

THE CHAMPIONSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you read the bit your missing from my post, now?

And go to the Sports board (you've never been to it from the look of your stats) and you'll find i contribute regularly to American sports threads. No need to educate me on American sports. I know the system well.

THE CHAMPIONSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you read the bit your missing from my post, now?

And go to the Sports board (you've never been to it from the look of your stats) and you'll find i contribute regularly to American sports threads. No need to educate me on American sports. I know the system well.

You either like or don't like the system. If you like the excitement of the play-offs system in the Championship, there is really no logic not to like it in the Premier League. Are you in favor of introducing the play-offs in the Premier League?

You either like or don't like the system. If you like the excitement of the play-offs system in the Championship, there is really no logic not to like it in the Premier League. Are you in favor of introducing the play-offs in the Premier League?

Losing your marbles, lad.

What are you talking about? Where have i mentioned play offs in the PL?

Personally never been a huge fan of promotion play-offs, but conversely would like to see relegation play-offs introduced.  Bottom 2 down automatically, 15th to 18th play-off for the final spot. 

Wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of chairmen go for this, especially those of clubs who could desperately do with staying in the top flight year on year. Even those with English chairmen like Wigan, Wolves, Newcastle and Bolton. Smallish clubs who could be in danger of going down, knowing that it doesn't really matter there'll still be in the top flight the following season.

Hopefully the FA will stop this entirely though as it'd make the sport F***ing pointless. And lower league clubs wouldn't have anything to strive for, the fairy tale stories of sides who have come through the Leagues after the brink of leaving League football would no longer exist. Clubs like Fulham, Wimbledon, Swansea and Blackpool would no longer have that side to the game.

And the play-offs, as well as the relegation dog fights, are always exciting. I'm not a huge fan of the play-offs as I think who comes third in the Championship should be promoted as they're the third best side over the season and finish 20 odd points ahead of sixth who eventually come up but I suppose that's the way they work and that's what makes them exciting, if not totally fair.

I would happily lose the play-offs and just have top three sides come up for the bottom three or alternatively the top four from what is now League 2 replace the bottom four in League 1 and further into the Conference top two replace the bottom two in League 2. I think that's much fairer but you can't get rid of promotion and relegation.

Would be the end of football as far as im concerned,this,and the european super league,and i would F**k it all off and shove the pepsi/carling/nike/addidas/blah blah blah league up its arse,total sh*te.

Personally never been a huge fan of promotion play-offs, but conversely would like to see relegation play-offs introduced.  Bottom 2 down automatically, 15th to 18th play-off for the final spot. 

Actually, I think that the Germans have the best system, if you like relegation/promotion play-offs. The bottom 2 teams in the Bundesliga are automatically relegated, and the top 2 teams from the 2nd Bundesliga are automatically promoted. The team that has finished 16th the Bundesliga (3rd from bottom, since the Bundesliga has 18 teams) is playing a 2-match play-offs with the 3rd team in the 2nd Bundesliga.

Actually, I think that the Germans have the best system, if you like relegation/promotion play-offs. The bottom 2 teams in the Bundesliga are automatically relegated, and the top 2 teams from the 2nd Bundesliga are automatically promoted. The team that has finished 16th the Bundesliga (3rd from bottom, since the Bundesliga has 18 teams) is playing a 2-match play-offs with the 3rd team in the 2nd Bundesliga.

I'm not a big fan of this to be honest, think it favours the 1st division club. Never checked historical results to see if they're compatible with what I would expect though.

I'm not a big fan of this to be honest, think it favours the 1st division club. Never checked historical results to see if they're compatible with what I would expect though.

It has been re-introduced for the 2008/09 season, after a pause of 17 seasons, so there is not enough data to make a statistical conclusion. Still, it is a fair system, since it gives the lower league club a chance to earn it's place in the top league, in a direct duel with a top league club. For a 20-club league like the Premier League, I think that a system with 2 clubs directly relegated/promoted, combined with 2 play-off ties (18th v 3rd and 17th v 4th), would be the best solution. Certainly a better solution that the current play-offs system that gives the 6th club in the Championship an equal chance to earn promotion with the 3rd club in the same league.

I stand to be corrected but I'm pretty sure the system in England was changed away from the team in the higher division taking part in the play offs because on nearly every occasion they saved their status.
The main thing that the playoffs achieve is giving meaning to more games in the last weeks of the season.
As to doing away with promotion / relegation it works well in the American system because there is no 2nd level or at least no meaningful one.
So behind the NFL for example there isn't a Championship football league with teams in say San Antonio or Colombus trying to get into the top league. With so many teams over here who could/have compete(d) at the top level (Leeds Southampton both Sheffield clubs West Ham etc etc) it simply couldn't work.