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      Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations

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      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #92: Dec 02, 2011 02:25:04 pm
      Luis Suárez and Patrice Evra racism case presents problem for FA

      It will be tricky for the authorities to work through the semantics of what the Liverpool striker is alleged to have said

      What we don't know for certain is the word Luis Suárez used. Patrice Evra alleges it was racist and uttered at least 10 times. Suárez admits he did say something but nothing, for someone with his upbringing in Uruguay, he considers racist or deserving of the Football Association charges that will bring lawyers from Manchester United and Liverpool opposite one another in the coming weeks. Here lies the problem for the FA and the reason why they are thinking about bringing in a QC with specialist knowledge to oversee the case.

      In ordinary circumstances, the FA would appoint a three-man panel consisting of an independent chairman, an FA councillor and someone described as a "football expert", meaning a former player or manager. The Guardian, however, has learned the FA may upgrade to a four-man commission because of the complexities of a case in which Suárez can, if necessary, point out he comes from a country where variations of the N-word are used very differently, and that it is actually quite common in Uruguay for men and women of all skin colours to have the nickname of El Negro or La Negra without any racist undertones.

      Obdulio Varela, the 1950 World Cup-winning captain and one of the more famous footballers in Uruguayan history, is revered as El Negro Jefe (The Black Chief). Fernando Cáceres, who was in the Argentina squad at the 1994 World Cup, is another El Negro, as is Héctor Enrique, the Argentinian who played the pass for Diego Maradona to slalom through the England team in Mexico 1986. Then consider that Enrique, for example, is not even black, and it becomes even more confused.

      Nor is this just a football thing. Rubén "El Negro" Rada is one of Uruguay's more successful musicians, appearing in a sitcom called La Oveja Negra (The Black Sheep) and with a compilation of his work entitled El Album Negro. Héctor Lescano, Uruguay's minister of sport and tourism, is known in politics as El Negro Lescano. The late cartoonist and writer Roberto Fontanarrosa and the late singer Mercedes Sosa were two others. Both were white.

      Elliott Turner, the author of An Illustrated Guide to Soccer and Spanish, posed the question recently of whether, in the Suárez case, "Anglo racial linguistic norms really offer the right and only lens by which to judge". Turner, writing for The Run Of Play, said: "On a superficial level, in the Spanish language one can use the term negro or güero or moreno, with no negative connotation." Güero is white or light-skinned; moreno means brown or dark.

      So is it all fairly innocent in the Spanish-speaking world? Not quite. "All language exists in context," Turner continued. "I'd say those terms only to family, friends or acquaintances. If you say the same term with anger in your eyes and hate in your heart, then its meaning can change 180 degrees." Like the time, perhaps, Luis Aragonés, at the time Spain's manager, referred to Thierry Henry as "negro de mierda" ("a black sh*t") in 2004.

      This is where Suárez may find himself being interrogated. He and Evra were, after all, arguing at the time, so it would be difficult for the Liverpool player to make a case that it was merely an alternative to "mate" or "pal". Then there is the issue of whether ignorance should constitute any form of defence anyway. If a foreign visitor were stopped for driving on the wrong side of the road in England, would he get off simply because he could claim it was the norm where he was from? Suárez has lived in northern Europe since 2006, so an argument could be made he should have a decent grasp of what can and cannot be said outside South America and would be acceptable in one country but unacceptable in another.

      Negrito is another prime example. It turns out this is not the word central to the Suárez-Evra case, but it does reveal a little more about the nuances of the Spanish language, translating as "little black guy" and such a common part of the vernacular that team-mates use it on each other as an affectionate term. Take the tweet Dani Pacheco, the Liverpool player on loan at Rayo Vallecano, sent to his Spain Under-21 colleague Thiago Alcântara via Twitter recently. "Negrito, enjoy yourself," it began.

      Visitors to countries such as Uruguay and Argentina can, understandably, find it shocking if they are unaware of the semantics. "The key is the tone in which you say those words," Sebastián García, the South American football writer for Mundo Albiceleste, explains. "It can be extremely friendly to call someone negrito but it can also be very offensive."

      In Brazil, it is negão, again with no racist connotation if none is meant. Other terms such as branco (white), moreno (dusky) and mulato (mixed race) are also commonly used in a non-offensive way. However, they can, too, be used in a racist capacity. Again, it comes down to context.

      Another example is of Javier Hernández, now Evra's team-mate at United, in an interview on the Chivas Guadalajara website in 2007, where the Mexican is quoted complimenting "the goal of the Negrito", talking about his team-mate Omar Esparza. As García explains: "It all depends on the connotation, the way it is used, the tone, the intent."

      Even then, different rules are in operation. When Carlos Tevez started out at Boca Juniors he was known as El Monito (The Little Monkey). Diego Perotti, the Sevilla player, goes by the same nickname, because his father, Hugo, who played with Diego Maradona at Boca, was El Mono (the suffixes -ito and -ita indicate a diminutive). Could a player in England, of whatever race, ever be called this?

      If nothing else, it highlights that there may be shades of grey involved when it comes to deciding what is racist and what is not. But it is a complicated business and, in Suárez's case, this is why the FA has allowed him more time than usual to respond to the charges. Liverpool say he will vigorously protest his innocence and the striker has said his words were not an insult but just his own "way of expressing myself. I called him something his team-mates at Manchester call him, and even they were surprised by his reaction. There were two parts of the discussion, one in Spanish, one in English."

      The delays have been frustrating for Liverpool, where they have offered Suárez their full backing, and also for United, where there is a feeling the dispute may have contributed towards Evra's erratic recent form. One of football's anti-racism bodies has complained behind the scenes that "people are tried for murder in less time". But the semantics and cultural issues are so complex it is not something the men in suits at FA headquarters can learn in a crash course. No date has been set for the hearing and, with legal teams to assemble, a row that began between two rival players on a football pitch on 15 October could very likely go beyond Christmas.


      http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/dec/01/luis-suarez-patrice-evra-racism

      Daniel Taylor is a mouthpiece for Old Trafford, I wouldn't trust the c**t at all. How does he know that 'negrito' is not the word that was used? This is the United PR office putting that about seeing as it has emerged that Hernandez has used the same word in a non-racist way.
      MIRO
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #93: Dec 02, 2011 05:19:32 pm
      D Yer know what ?


      Ill tell yer what.


      Those whining Scum players should all be taken out and shot !





      Oooooooooooooooooppppppp psssss. ;D





       xxxxx:action-smiley-065: Hello Jeremy.
      MIRO
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #94: Dec 03, 2011 10:00:49 pm
      No 15 on the Billboard top 100 music chart tonight.

      Ni**as in Paris.

      (Thats "Niggas" folks)


      Jay Z  and Kanye West.

      Aint Dat Racist Though?

      Is that all right for them to say it and stick it on CD cover?
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #95: Dec 04, 2011 03:02:24 pm
      No 15 on the Billboard top 100 music chart tonight.

      Ni**as in Paris.

      (Thats "Niggas" folks)


      Jay Z  and Kanye West.

      Aint Dat Racist Though?

      Is that all right for them to say it and stick it on CD cover?

      Yes, they're black!
      RedPuppy
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #96: Dec 04, 2011 03:37:05 pm

      It's OK for black people, to call other black people names, but if white people call black people by the same name, then that is racist?
      But is that not racism in it self?

      Just a thought.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #97: Dec 04, 2011 03:55:51 pm
      It's OK for black people, to call other black people names, but if white people call black people by the same name, then that is racist?
      But is that not racism in it self?

      Just a thought.


      Reclaiming the word, did your great-great grandparents ever get sold around America as slaves, pick cotton from cotton fields, watch your relatives get strung up by inbreds in bed sheets.

      All of that was done by white to black people in the US, maybe, just maybe us white people shouldn't get so worked up about it!
      RedPuppy
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #98: Dec 04, 2011 04:08:14 pm
      I'm not worked up about it. It was just a thought, like I said.

      Either the word is derogatory or it is not, irrespectful of who says it. You can not have one rule for one and another rule for another, especially if the rule changes depends on the colour of your skin.

      Maybe white people should not get so worked up about what other white people did 200 years ago in another country.
      wallbanger
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #99: Dec 04, 2011 04:43:55 pm
      This polictical correctness  has reached nonsensical heights. And is a devious way of eventually limiting free speech.
      StevieG123
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #100: Dec 04, 2011 04:58:52 pm
      s it. You can not have one rule for one and another rule for another, especially if the rule changes depends on the colour of your skin.

      Love that song.
      *Ahem*
      LFCexiled
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #101: Dec 04, 2011 06:37:44 pm
      Whoever it is that says nigger be they black, white or whatever colour it's still perpetuation of the word.

      If you want it to disappear stop F***ing using it. I for one am sick of hearing about it, the quicker it fucks off the better for all of us and that ain't gonna happen whilst ANYBODY keeps on bringing it up.
      Tayls
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #102: Dec 04, 2011 07:24:08 pm
      Reclaiming the word, did your great-great grandparents ever get sold around America as slaves, pick cotton from cotton fields, watch your relatives get strung up by inbreds in bed sheets.

      All of that was done by white to black people in the US, maybe, just maybe us white people shouldn't get so worked up about it!

      Too right HR, I'm glad some people are sane when it  comes to these matters. Any word you use only becomes racist when you use it in a derogatory manner, or in a deliberately insulting way. If a black friend of mine called me a honky I'd be fine with it, because he'd be doing so as a joke.

      When it comes specifically to the word 'nigger', in it's lengthened form it's a racist word and always has been. It's derogatory, whether the person saying it is black, white, asian, whatever. The (white) people involved in the slave trade manufactured it and they were talking to human cattle that they'd brutally captured. How can it not be insulting, or angering to a black man? But black people adopted the shortened form. The debate is open as to whether that's really positive for black people to adopt something used by their ancestors slavers, but I guess it's a sort of F**k you? I personally think it's perpetuates the racist ignorance that does still existm and like Exiled think it should just stop being used entirely.

      An interesting article on the subject:
      http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/504
      LFCexiled
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #103: Dec 04, 2011 07:38:18 pm
      If a black friend of mine called me a honky I'd be fine with it, because he'd be doing so as a joke.

      Honky is itself a racist slur, it would only be acceptable for a black man to call a white man Honky if he was happy to be called Nigger in return. The two should not be separated and should be treated as exactly the same in the offence they may cause. Again, offence can only be caused if the words are used and as such they should be forgotten.

      From wiki:

      Honky (also spelled honkie or sometimes honkey) is a racial slur for white people, predominantly heard in the United States.

      Another documented theory and possible explanation for the origins of the word is that it was a nickname African-American people gave white men (called "johns" or "curb crawlers") who would honk their car horns for prostitutes to come outside in urban areas such as Harlem and red-light districts in the early 1910s.[4][5][6][7]

      Honky was adopted as a pejorative in 1967 by black militants within Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) seeking a rebuttal for the term nigger. National Chairman of the SNCC, H. Rap Brown, on June 24, 1967, told an audience of blacks in Cambridge, "You should burn that school down and then go take over the honky's school." Brown went on to say: "If America don't come round, we got to burn it down. You better get some guns, brotha. The only thing the honky respects is a gun. You give me a gun and tell me to shoot my enemy, I might shoot Ladybird."

      Tayls
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #104: Dec 04, 2011 07:49:26 pm
      Honky is itself a racist slur, it would only be acceptable for a black man to call a white man Honky if he was happy to be called Nigger in return. The two should not be separated and should be treated as exactly the same in the offence they may cause. Again, offence can only be caused if the words are used and as such they should be forgotten.

      From wiki:

      Honky (also spelled honkie or sometimes honkey) is a racial slur for white people, predominantly heard in the United States.

      Another documented theory and possible explanation for the origins of the word is that it was a nickname African-American people gave white men (called "johns" or "curb crawlers") who would honk their car horns for prostitutes to come outside in urban areas such as Harlem and red-light districts in the early 1910s.[4][5][6][7]

      Honky was adopted as a pejorative in 1967 by black militants within Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) seeking a rebuttal for the term nigger. National Chairman of the SNCC, H. Rap Brown, on June 24, 1967, told an audience of blacks in Cambridge, "You should burn that school down and then go take over the honky's school." Brown went on to say: "If America don't come round, we got to burn it down. You better get some guns, brotha. The only thing the honky respects is a gun. You give me a gun and tell me to shoot my enemy, I might shoot Ladybird."



      Yes but that's my point, I wouldn't find it offence (despite the fact that it is indeed a racist term), and I'd assume that my black friend wouldn't be offended if I called him 'nigga'. As you say, that's 'acceptable' in my book, but, like you, I think that maybe a words that carry such negative, racist connotations shouldn't be used at all. However I don't feel the need to get angry at a friend if he happens to use an old racist term in a jokey manner. The problem is the people who still use these terms in a derogatory way.
      LFCexiled
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #105: Dec 04, 2011 08:14:14 pm
      Yes but that's my point, I wouldn't find it offence (despite the fact that it is indeed a racist term), and I'd assume that my black friend wouldn't be offended if I called him 'nigga'. As you say, that's 'acceptable' in my book, but, like you, I think that maybe a words that carry such negative, racist connotations shouldn't be used at all. However I don't feel the need to get angry at a friend if he happens to use an old racist term in a jokey manner. The problem is the people who still use these terms in a derogatory way.

      That's the main crux isn't it, the way the words are used by the people who use them.

      Walk past a playground and all you hear amongst the varying coloured faces is laughter, it stays that way till adults start getting in their ears. If adults stop saying sh*te kids will never learn what sh*te means.
      xBooniex
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #106: Dec 04, 2011 11:52:07 pm
      ‎'Prevaricate' means that somebody gives false and incriminating information.

      Ironically, prevaricate is an anagram of Patrice Evra.

      I just think they knew he was destined to be a right horrible c***
      Kieranlfc88
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #107: Dec 05, 2011 07:56:14 am
      This polictical correctness  has reached nonsensical heights. And is a devious way of eventually limiting free speech.

      Disagree
      Know I won't make myself popular but I really don't think he should have used a term containing the word 'negro' or 'Negreto' to a black player he has no relationship with.
      I understand that it may be the done thing in Uruguay but we're not in Uruguay and Suarez has lived in Western Europe for 5 years - he should understand the culture here by now.

      And for the record - Uruguay (a country in South America) has a ~85% white population...
      QuicoGalante
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #108: Dec 05, 2011 11:39:59 am
      Disagree
      Know I won't make myself popular but I really don't think he should have used a term containing the word 'negro' or 'Negreto' to a black player he has no relationship with.
      I understand that it may be the done thing in Uruguay but we're not in Uruguay and Suarez has lived in Western Europe for 5 years - he should understand the culture here by now.

      And for the record - Uruguay (a country in South America) has a ~85% white population...
      Make that around 90%...
      Our country was the first to abolish slavery in the americas.
      Our country was the first to field black players in a football match (save from african countries)
      Our most respected player of all time was black.
      Despite only 5% of the population is black, Uruguay never won a major tournament without a black player on the pitch
      Uruguayan legislation on racism is by far the oldest and most advance in the region.
      Despite being only 5% of the population, the black carival (black drumming festival or "llamadas") is a National Festival

      Yes, we call black people BLACK, or negro, or negrito...and as I said from day one, im sure Luis called the c**t NEGRO. For those of you who say he should have learnt, he BARELY speaks any English, how the hell can he know what is deemed racist in England.?

      He is not a racist, but this case isnt about racism, is it? Its about FEAR. Fear for a man that can alter the way things have been for the past 20 years.

      waltonl4
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #109: Dec 05, 2011 12:06:54 pm
      We all know its Ferguson behind this so you are preaching to the converted. with a bit of luck they will be dumped out of the CL get hammered by City in the Cup and be out of the league come the end of January which is the best form of justice Karma.
      MIRO
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #110: Dec 05, 2011 10:19:41 pm
      We all know its Ferguson behind this so you are preaching to the converted. with a bit of luck they will be dumped out of the CL get hammered by City in the Cup and be out of the league come the end of January which is the best form of justice Karma.
      Thanks Walton. I thought it. You said it.
      Perfect justice. Love it.
      QuicoGalante
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #111: Dec 07, 2011 10:17:10 pm
      Thanks Walton. I thought it. You said it.
      Perfect justice. Love it.
      Well, 1 down, 2 to go...
      MIRO
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #112: Dec 08, 2011 01:10:07 am
      An Early Christmas Message To Us All. Thats Nice.

      Christmas is coming and Rooneys getting fat,

      Nani is a GayBoy and Giggsy is a tw*t,

      Rio is a cokehead, his nostrils getting bigger,

      De Gea is a useless c*nt and Evra is a n*****.

      MERRY CHRISTMAS TO LFC FROM Mr JOHN TERRY.


      http://sport.uk.msn.com/football/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=160012355



      Ah Ah Ah.   Cant pin this on me.
      Only being reprinted from another source as here.
      Well.
      Some of it.



      (Good though innit! ;D)
      I feel a moderation coming on.
      Reprobate
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #113: Dec 08, 2011 07:05:20 am
      Well I tried to supress it but a childish snigger came out when I read that, Skip.


      Just to clarify, I said SNIGGER!
      LFCexiled
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      Re: Petition: Liverpool fans want evidence of the Suarez allegations
      Reply #114: Dec 08, 2011 11:29:16 am



       ;D

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