If the results went differently

Firstly I want to point out that I'm well aware the points didn't go differently and it's pretty pointless speculating on what might of happened but I'll do it anyway.

Would people still be moaning about where we are and how far off top we are and how sh*t our players are and ect ect if the results went something like

2-0 win against Sunderland
1-1 draw with Arsenal

2-1 win against Swansea
0-0 draw with Chelsea

2-0 win against Norwich
1-1 draw with Everton

Basically, would the season be as disastrous as people have made out if we'd picked up the wins at home against the "lesser" teams but slipped up on our travels in three of our more difficult away games. We'd be no worse off points wise, we'd still be as close to the top as we are now and we'd still have the same squad. But would people consider that to be a relatively decent start compared to the disappointing start people think we've had?

Funny how results make people think.

We're alright where we are at the moment. Nothing spectacular but certainly not disastrous! I'd have bitten your left bollock off to get to this position considering where we were last year! It's progress guys - look at it in relative terms!

I've mentioned this before when we beat Arsenal 2-0 at the Emirates.

I said "There's not much difference because we usually draw with Arsenal there and beat Sunderland at home."

I am happy with our performances against the bigger teams. Should have beaten Man City and Man United at home but finishing the weaker teams off, especially at home is what we're lacking.

And i would have his right one  , i know what your saying Billy, i think some posters were expecting us to be in the top 3 by now and because we are not feel disappointed by that, we would of course been better off had we not hit the woodwork as much as we have or had we been more clinical,but the table does'nt lie and we are where we are and sitting pretty.

   IKWT   YNWA

Im happy with the results against the "top" teams so far....and that is what really matters.
The other lesser problems can be fixed.

Not sure who has been making the season out to be "disastrous"?
Unless you mean those who crawl out of the woodwork every time we lose or draw...

We're probably about where I expected us to be at this stage of the season - I HOPED we would be higher, but we're not, so F**k it, I'll just carry on supporting the lads and enjoying (mostly) the footy and see where we are after another 23 games.
My guess is that we'll be in the top 4, and ready to push on soon, to the next level.

If is the best word around. If we won all our games we would be top of the league.

 What's also interesting is that we haven't as far as I can remember won one or drawn one single game where you could say "f*ck me we got a result there, they battered us". The only game in which we've been comprehensively outplayed was Tottenham Away.

 We lost at Stoke and were unbelieveably unfortunate so to do, ditto at Fulham. We drew at Home with Norwich despite hitting the woodwork half a dozen times, battered both Manc teams and didn't beat either etc etc. We could quite concieveably have eight or nine points more than we have now, without playing any better than we have.

 Now I know this will bring the mouth foamers out in force but it's wrth pointing out anyway. In our best ever league season under Rafa we got every bounce going in the early season, last minute winners week on week, players getting sent off against us left right and centre etc etc. Hang on I'd better say something here before someone keels over on us: I'M NOT SAYING WE FINISHED SECOND BECAUSE WE WERE LUCKY. What I am saying that if we had been equally lucky at the start of this season, we'd be right up there. It's all fine margins, but IMHO this is the best side we've had in a few seasons.

 I'm just going to repeat for the hard of reading; I'M NOT SAYING WE FINISHED SECOND BECAUSE WE WERE LUCKY.

One of Rafa biggest critics on here trying to call us lucky during Rafa best season will just derail the thread. No need for it

One of Rafa biggest critics on here trying to call us lucky during Rafa best season will just derail the thread. No need for it

 You couldn't make it up. You are joking right? You must be, I cannot believe you are being serious.

Ya u couldn't a poster post something about what if we won games this season And you Mick who everyone knows is a big critic of Rafa decides to go off topic and talk about Rafa being lucky that season. You were looking for the reaction and shouldn't have brought it up will. This topic has absolutely zero to do with Rafa. Do you know the last time we won the league we were lucky in a few matches so F***ing what

Ya u couldn't a poster post something about what if we won games this season And you Mick who everyone knows is a big critic of Rafa decides to go off topic and talk about Rafa being lucky that season. You were looking for the reaction and shouldn't have brought it up will. This topic has absolutely zero to do with Rafa. Do you know the last time we won the league we were lucky in a few matches so f**king what

 I'm not going to get drawn into this discussion. I'm simply going to suggest that you revisit the original post and read the bit in capital letters again.


 Anyway, back on topic I think Billy makes a fair point. If our sequence of results were different but we had exactly the same number of points, some people wouldn't be moaning as much. Some still would though, of that I have no doubt.

Should nt be mentioned was mentioned to get a reaction which you say in your own post you expected.  This thread isn't a thread for a Rafa discussion

 Anyway back on topic, I think Billy makes a fair point about our sequence of results having an impact on peoples thoughts. It's been one of our failings over many seasons that we've not managed to beat newly promoted teams, it's happened to our cost under successive managers.

I think we've had a decent start we've been unlucky in most games, there is only Spurs and Swansea that springs to mind where I feel we got what we deserved, other than that a failure to convert the chances we have created has ultimately cost us points.

So at the moment for me were perfectly poised for a top 4 finish bare minimum, so the sequences of results are pretty much irrelevant, we are where we are which is in a healthy position in the league, playing good football and perfectly poised to take advantage of any one above us in the table slip ups and if we start converting a higher percentage of our chances, we'll move up the table pretty quickly in my opinion.

I feel like all teams, at some point, get to a "mean" performance level. Generally speaking, a team of our caliber will finish a much better amount of scoring chances than we have so far. What does this mean?

a)  We are well below average.

b) Because we're below our average, and are getting close to halfway done with the season, the second half could produce some blistering performances in order to get back to the "mean" level.

If we were at a 9% chance conversion rate 19 games in, and our mean conversion was 17, we'd have to finish a ridiculously high amount of chances to get there. Will we? Who knows. But I'm sure we will be putting them away at a higher clip. And given the fact that we have yet to lose by more than a goal (save for the Tottenham game), I think we'll see a lot of results turning.

On the original point of the post, I think if our home form was a bit better there would be a lot less moaning. It's hard to beat the big teams, but you only play them 1/4 of the time or so. It's the points you get in the other 3/4 of the game that really matter, I think, and we're in that stretch.

What's also interesting is that we haven't as far as I can remember won one or drawn one single game where you could say "f*ck me we got a result there, they battered us". The only game in which we've been comprehensively outplayed was Tottenham Away.

 We lost at Stoke and were unbelieveably unfortunate so to do, ditto at Fulham. We drew at Home with Norwich despite hitting the woodwork half a dozen times, battered both Manc teams and didn't beat either etc etc. We could quite concieveably have eight or nine points more than we have now, without playing any better than we have.

 Now I know this will bring the mouth foamers out in force but it's wrth pointing out anyway. In our best ever league season under Rafa we got every bounce going in the early season, last minute winners week on week, players getting sent off against us left right and centre etc etc. Hang on I'd better say something here before someone keels over on us: I'M NOT SAYING WE FINISHED SECOND BECAUSE WE WERE LUCKY. What I am saying that if we had been equally lucky at the start of this season, we'd be right up there. It's all fine margins, but IMHO this is the best side we've had in a few seasons.

 I'm just going to repeat for the hard of reading; I'M NOT SAYING WE FINISHED SECOND BECAUSE WE WERE LUCKY.

I agree if we had had a smidgin of luck we would indeed be right up there,and Spurs beat 9 men it should be remembered.

But if were beating the big teams, we should be doing the same against the smaller ones.

If we beat say man city away, im not going to say I'll be happy with a draw in our next feature at home to a smaller side . I'll say in these two fixtures I would have taken a draw at city and a win vs the smaller side.

But after beating the big side , then I see a point in next game as sh*t!

 At the end of the season we will be in the position we deserve to be in

Firstly I want to point out that I'm well aware the points didn't go differently and it's pretty pointless speculating on what might of happened but I'll do it anyway.

Would people still be moaning about where we are and how far off top we are and how sh*t our players are and ect ect if the results went something like

2-0 win against Sunderland
1-1 draw with Arsenal

2-1 win against Swansea
0-0 draw with Chelsea

2-0 win against Norwich
1-1 draw with Everton

Basically, would the season be as disastrous as people have made out if we'd picked up the wins at home against the "lesser" teams but slipped up on our travels in three of our more difficult away games. We'd be no worse off points wise, we'd still be as close to the top as we are now and we'd still have the same squad. But would people consider that to be a relatively decent start compared to the disappointing start people think we've had?

Funny how results make people think.

Totally agree man, I was thinking the same last week.

As Kenny keeps saying as well, only bad game we have played is spuds away. The rest we have played well, and not got the rewards, but this bodes well for the rest of the season and the next few seasons, this team will only get better if they stick together.

Every team in the league has been unlucky in games this season

Basically, would the season be as disastrous as people have made out if we'd picked up the wins at home against the "lesser" teams but slipped up on our travels in three of our more difficult away games.

I had said something similar after the Chelsea game.

A lot of people were saying before the Swansea/Chelsea game that 4 points would be a good return.  Expecting a win against Swansea and a draw against Chelsea.

As it turned out if we had done it that way, Chelsea would have been a point further ahead of us.

The point you make is very valid.  Quite often people don't see the bigger picture and can't do the maths.  In the three examples you point out I am sure everyone prefers that the results were reversed.

Sitting nicely tucked in for top 4 position having done ok pwerformed solidily rather than spectacularly. Our away form could be the key to our success this year so who cares how we get the points as long as we do.

4 points from every 2 games would place us 2nd in the league last season, so no matter how we do it, that would be a major improvement this season !

After 15 games we are only 4 points of that type of points tally.

So all good. IMO.

Good topic. I don't like to say it but we have been unlucky this season. Reason being it sounds like an excuse but its not, we genuinely havnt had our fair share of the rub of the green. I think once the team gets to know eachother a bit better and the new players start to settle in a bit more we will start to see more results being forced and ground out. Start turning some of these draws into wins and we will be laughing. I reckon we will make top four by the end of season.

A lot of people were saying before the Swansea/Chelsea game that 4 points would be a good return.

That's the point I'm trying to make mate, in most cases people would have been happy with four points from the pair of games (I know United were in between of Everton and Norwich) I mentioned. In each case we got four points and yet it appears it isn't good enough for some. I can understand why because we should be beating Sunderland, Norwich and Swansea at home but ultimately, if people would of been happy with four points from the pairs of games then why aren't they?

What's also interesting is that we haven't as far as I can remember won one or drawn one single game where you could say "f*ck me we got a result there, they battered us". The only game in which we've been comprehensively outplayed was Tottenham Away.

 We lost at Stoke and were unbelieveably unfortunate so to do, ditto at Fulham. We drew at Home with Norwich despite hitting the woodwork half a dozen times, battered both Manc teams and didn't beat either etc etc. We could quite concieveably have eight or nine points more than we have now, without playing any better than we have.

 Now I know this will bring the mouth foamers out in force but it's wrth pointing out anyway. In our best ever league season under Rafa we got every bounce going in the early season, last minute winners week on week, players getting sent off against us left right and centre etc etc. Hang on I'd better say something here before someone keels over on us: I'M NOT SAYING WE FINISHED SECOND BECAUSE WE WERE LUCKY. What I am saying that if we had been equally lucky at the start of this season, we'd be right up there. It's all fine margins, but IMHO this is the best side we've had in a few seasons.

 I'm just going to repeat for the hard of reading; I'M NOT SAYING WE FINISHED SECOND BECAUSE WE WERE LUCKY.

Actually in the first part on 08/09 we weren't that good, has everyone forgot Dossena already!!

Isn't that why we didn't win the league, because of the early season draws?

The more we struggle against the "smaller" teams, the more of a mental issue it will become for the players. In saying that, it works the same way when we have been doing exceptionally well against our top rivals.

Actually in the first part on 08/09 we weren't that good, has everyone forgot Dossena already!!

Isn't that why we didn't win the league, because of the early season draws?

 That's right Dossena was garbage, my mind had selectively forgotten about him altoghether. That said, didn't we win 10 out our first 12 or something, a succession of last minute winners repeatedly getting us over the line? I'm only going from memory here, I haven't googled it or anything.

Actually in the first part on 08/09 we weren't that good, has everyone forgot Dossena already!!

Isn't that why we didn't win the league, because of the early season draws?

I have not forgotten the goal that Dossena scored against United,I don'tknow who was more excited when he scored him or me.

 That's right Dossena was garbage, my mind had selectively forgotten about him altoghether. That said, didn't we win 10 out our first 12 or something, a succession of last minute winners repeatedly getting us over the line? I'm only going from memory here, I haven't googled it or anything.

Our first 13 games were 10-2-1, and then we had that pair of draws at home to Fulham and West Ham.

January that really fu**ed us.

I seem to remember drawing at home to stoke? At least I think it was at home. Think it was 0-0?

Remember that being a game that we should of won which potentially cost us the title.

Just two of our drawn games being grind out to win's would have seen us level on points with the mancs

One of those draws in the first 13 was Stoke at home yeah. Incorrectly ruled out goal I believe also! Drew 0-0 away to Stoke as well. c**t of a bloody side they've been to us

That's football though. Shouldn't have lost at Boro, should have ground out a win here and there. Also unlucky to be on the end of Arshavins one awesome game for Arsenal as well!

As for this season, can't see us getting worse than our reasonably good to great play. Only way is up, and we are in a good spot to start pushing.

We were unbeaten for 12 games I think, until we lost to Spurs despite taking the lead first.

Yeah, we drew with Stoke at Anfield. 30 shots, 20 corners and one wrong disallowed goal that would have seen Gerrard scored his 100th Liverpool goal via a free kick.

We drew with Fulham and West Ham when our rivals dropped points but the main killer was January 2009. I think we drew three times that month to Everton, Wigan and Stoke.

Like you said, had we got 2 wins instead of 2 draws, we would finished level on points with United and claim the title through a superior goal difference of +50!

EDIT

BigV reminds me. If Arshavin ever played the same again, he will never score four goals from four shots, even if he tried. We were unlucky!
I miss that season. I was so confident going into every game that season. It wasn't the same in the last two seasons but it's getting better now.

We also won more games than the mancs didnt we? Yet they still came out on top. Being born in 91, it's the closest ive come to see'ing Liverpool win the League. I genuinely thought we were going to do it that year. Especially after thrashing Newcastle away. We looked unstopable. Such a shame, Rafa desereved to win it aswell. Still one of my hero's is Rafa, not arsed what anybody says. Hopefully King Kenny can go that one step further in the coming few seasons and return us to the pinnacle of English Football.

Actually in the first part on 08/09 we weren't that good

Ah, the night we drew with West Ham and were booed off even though top of the league, so some weren't impressed with that start

Ah, it seems I was talking utter b0ll0cks. Sorry about that.

 Corrected it for you. Not to worry, happens to us all from time to time.

Ah, the night we drew with West Ham and were booed off even though top of the league, so some weren't impressed with that start

Yep. People like..

Actually in the first part on 08/09 we weren't that good

Corrected it for you. Not to worry, happens to us all from time to time.

And why the F**k do you care, wouldn't you have been too busy during that season blaming Rafa

Actually it's utter bollocks, not utter b0ll0cks, shouldn't get your zero's mixed up with your O's

Otherwise you look a bit of a c**t!

 I care only in that it was bollocks, and utter bollocks at that. Still, no harm done.

 So anyway back onto the original point, we got a good start and a bit of luck that year. This year we've had no luck and our start hasn't been quite as good. Simples.

I care only in that it was bollocks, and utter bollocks at that. Still, no harm done.

 So anyway back onto the original point, we got a good start and a bit of luck that year. This year we've had no luck and our start hasn't been quite as good. Simples.

Why are you comparing?

In 2008/09 we had far more world class players than we have in our squad now, maybe that is why that team was a better team and got better results.

This team, this season is still finding it's feet, need time like Rafa's teams to grow.

b] Why are you comparing? [/b]

In 2008/09 we had far more world class players than we have in our squad now, maybe that is why that team was a better team and got better results.

This team, this season is still finding it's feet, need time like Rafa's teams to grow.

 Well, I'm comparing because it's the best start we had to a league season in many years. It happened only a couple of seasons back, naturally we would aspire to have that sort of start every year if we could, and as I said earlier it was my impression that we were getting the bounce of the ball during that period (and we aren't this). It's a shame that somebody can't make a sensible point about the team during a six year period without being accused of having a "Rafa bash", but there it is. Some of you lads are sensitive/defensive to the point of being paranoid, but there you go.

 Well, I'm comparing because it's the best start we had to a league season in many years. It happened only a couple of seasons back, naturally we would aspire to have that sort of start every year if we could, and as I said earlier it was my impression that we were getting the bounce of the ball during that period (and we aren't this). It's a shame that somebody can't make a sensible point about the team during a six year period without being accused of having a "Rafa bash", but there it is. Some of you lads are sensitive/defensive to the point of being paranoid, but there you go.

What was your sensible point about the team during that six year period? How could you have a sensible point about that six year period, when you have a biased point of view yourself?

What was your sensible point about the team during that six year period? How could you have a sensible point about that six year period, when you have a biased point of view yourself?

 I refer you the earlier posts. "Biased"? You couldn't make it up.

 Anyway back on topic, I think if we'd had a bit more luck this season we could easily be 8 or 9 points better off. That's probably a bit biased of me to say that, but I naturally remember all the times this season we've been unlucky. The only obvious bit of luck I can remember us having was Charlie Adams deflected shot against Man City. I also thought we got a pen which was a little bit soft in one match where Suarez got fouled, but I can't remember the game. WBA maybe? Anyway, I'm sure the point holds good, we've had no luck.

Interesting topic, bit of everything in here. Comparing results, starts to seasons, lucky or unlucky, with Rafagate dug up again for good measure. In only 2 pages too
I'm OK with the season start. If you look at the top6, only surprise for me is Spurts being well up there and looking strong. And talking about luck, saw the highlights of their loss 2-1 vs. Stoke - they were definately unlucky not to get at least a point there, unbelievable actually. So luck/refereeing decisions etc. for me anyway are things that even out, even by this stage of the season.
(Arsenal are a bit of a surprise too given their start, but they are practically a one man team, if RVP gets injured again, they're fu**ed)
Are we unlucky not to be winning more games? For me, the answer is no. We are creating plenty of chances - we're just not putting them away. That's not unlucky, it's wasteful. But hopefully we'll correct that (Santa, bring Andy some shooting boots)
Still, given all the signings, I thought we'd be slightly better off in the table. One big factor is SG being injured. A fit SG would've cracked in 4 or 5 goals already. Plus he's the type of player that can lift/inspire a team. I expected him to be fit and raring to go after the op he had before the end of last season, but at this stage his injuries could be made the 8th wonder of the world, I can't figure them out anywho. If longer term we need to replace him, you're talking 40 to 50Mill to get someone of the same stature. Adam is doing a good job, but it was never intended that he would figure so prominently. We need a FIT SG.
So all in all, to be sitting were we are, think KK won't be unhappy, but he will want to push on, try to go on a decent run, turning more of the chances we create into goals!!!

Don't think we can have any complaints about the results against the so called smaller teams, we should be going into these games believing we are better than them ( like city do ), we don't have to be cocky, just play with the belief we can beat anyone.
I think we have a fear of losing these games, and it seems sometimes that we're  trying not to lose as much as we're trying to win.

Commentator said during the match last night we have been denied 17 times by the woodwork this season already.

Imagine the difference that would have made if we had the Mancs luck.  They would have the ball fall into the back of the net 16 of those times!