Trending Topics

      Next match: v [] Thu 1st Jan @ 1:00 am

      Today is the 24th of May and on this date LFC's match record is P14 W9 D1 L4

      The Movement of Four

      Read 3397 times
      0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
      Adryan
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****
      • Started Topic

      • 17,704 posts | 378 
      • Cut my veins open and I bleed Liverpool Red.
      The Movement of Four
      Mar 06, 2012 11:09:32 am
      Found this interesting article ..
      Liverpool’s Corner: Has Kenny Dalglish Finally Woken Up To The Fantastic Four?

      If you’re a red, then hold your frustrations and calm yourselves down. Don’t let Liverpool’s performance on Saturday become like Ryan Babel’s late cameo at Lyon in 2009 – a performance that deserved a lot of credit, but was forgotten in the bigger scheme of a disappointing result.

      That night in France, Babel scored a stunning long-range goal that looked to have rescued not only Liverpool’s Champions League campaign but the player’s career at the club, only to be pegged back in the last minute. Who remembers that goal now?

      On Saturday afternoon, we witnessed one of Liverpool’s best performances this season and a performance worthy of winning any football match. But for Robin van Persie’s lethal finishing and Carragher’s ageing legs, Liverpool would have done so. The striker, who was initially signed for a mere £2.75 million and must now be worth well in excess of £40 million, showed the Anfield faithful how a Robbie Fowler or a Michael Owen today could virtually guarantee them a place in the top four. The Dutchman has scored 25 League goals this season and Liverpool have scored 30.

      To out-pass, out-manoeuvre and dominate an Arsenal side that thrives on possession and were coming off a hammering of 3rd-placed Tottenham, Kenny Dalglish deserves a lot of credit. But attached to that appreciation should be a bit of anger, as well.

      For a football writer, it is always good to be vindicated and the writer of this article is no different. The following is an excerpt from an earlier article by the same writer in November, analyzing Jordan Henderson’s time at Sunderland and Liverpool:

      Quote
      Due to Suarez and Kuyt’s sharp movement, Henderson could afford the freedom to drift into the centre (against Bolton) registering 3 shots on goal, including his first Liverpool goal. This is something he can’t afford when Andy Carroll is in the team due to the big man’s lack of mobility. Quite bizarrely – and inexplicably – these four players have only started two games together for Liverpool this season.

      The ‘four players’ in the above quote are Luis Suarez, Dirk Kuyt, Stewart Downing and Jordan Henderson. When these four players are on the field in the correct formation, they take Liverpool’s mobility to a whole new level and usually succeed in running the opposition ragged.

      Liverpool’s 3-1 triumph over Bolton Wanderers was the best example of this, when these players put on a stunning show orchestrated by Luis Suarez, especially in the first half. The very next game with the same quartet was a dominant performance at the Britannia Stadium without any success and luck. And Saturday’s performance against Arsenal – a much stronger opponent – was the clincher in this argument.

      However, for some reason, Kenny Dalglish is reluctant to play the four of these more often. The quartet have only started 6 games together this season for Liverpool (of course, Suarez’s ban didn’t help), out of which three were not in the most effective formation.

      Let’s take a look at the individual movements of Kuyt and Henderson on Saturday against Arsenal, to indicate how energetic, flexible and dominant Liverpool’s attacking line-up was. Henderson started on the right side of midfield, while Kuyt lined up with Suarez up front.

      *Dots indicate touches and darker the dots, more the time on the ball



      From the above heat map, one can see why Dirk Kuyt’s movement was a major factor in Liverpool’s link-up play throughout the match. Not only does Kuyt’s movement help in attack, but he also intelligently covers for Henderson, or Downing. The Dutchman’s work-rate is exceptional and although his attacking ability has declined over the years, there is hardly a better attacker on the bench for Liverpool. There is no doubt that Dalglish has underutilized Kuyt this season and is perhaps, regretting it today.

      Now, moving on to the much-maligned Jordan Henderson. ‘Hendo’ has hardly been a revelation at Anfield and he hasn’t produced enough to suggest he is going to take giant strides at his current club. However, one thing Henderson does have in abundance is energy; to compensate for the other things he does not have – like confidence.



      The above heat map shows how involved Henderson was when playing in a set-up that gives him the freedom to move around and pop up in different parts of the pitch. When Liverpool ripped apart Bolton at Anfield at the beginning of the season, Henderson was touted for greater things but hasn’t quite bonded with his new role near the touch-line. He is much happier to roam around in the centre like he did at Sunderland for most of his time.

      Now, take a look at Henderson’s movement when Carroll instead of Kuyt is in the attacking four. The following is his heat map from Liverpool’s nervy 2-1 win at Anfield against Wolverhampton when he had Carroll up front with Suarez.



      Henderson was restricted to the right hand side, where he started the game. He had no freedom whatsoever, even against a Wolves side visiting Anfield. Contrast this to the freedom he had on Saturday against a much better and dangerous opponent in Arsenal. The only difference was the faith he – and perhaps, Dalglish – had in Kuyt providing intelligent cover due to his sharpness, whereas Carroll wouldn’t have. Andy Carroll isn’t a sharp football player, which is something he is criticized for, but the big man will never be as sharp as Liverpool wants him to be. It just isn’t his natural game.

      Apart from the synchronized and dynamic movement, Liverpool’s ball retention also increases when Suarez, Kuyt, Downing and Henderson start. Liverpool have averaged 55% possession this season, which increases to 59% in their presence. These include 56% possession against the billionaires of City at Anfield and 53% possession at Old Trafford.

      It is a mystery why Kenny Dalglish has been reluctant to play this formation. If one assembles these four names on paper and tries to replace them from somebody on the bench, only Bellamy might merit an inclusion over Downing (on the left) or Kuyt (as Suarez’s strike partner). Andy Carroll hasn’t done nearly enough to suggest selection over Dirk Kuyt.

      The only explanation could perhaps be found in Liverpool’s (much talked about) ‘long-term objectives’. Had Carroll started instead of Kuyt on Saturday, the front six including the likes of Adam and Spearing would have symbolically represented building towards Liverpool’s future on the field.

      The likes of the ageing Dirk Kuyt certainly aren’t in Dalglish’s future plans, but it will be wise on part of King Kenny to let players like him play a big part in sorting out the mess in the present, first.

      http://www.thehardtackle.com/2012/liverpools-corner-has-kenny-dalglish-finally-woken-up-to-the-fantastic-four/

      I don't know how reliable the stats are but it is kinda interesting.

      I know Andy has been playing well in the last month or so but I still feel we play much better without him on the pitch.

      Let the debate begin!
      Reprobate
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 11,055 posts | 436 
      • Avatar by Kitster29@Deviantart.com
      Re: The Movement of Four
      Reply #1: Mar 06, 2012 11:37:53 am
      That is interesting but let's not overlook the fact that the writer is revelling in 'proving' his earlier theory to be correct.

      I would be tempted to ask whether Hendo's lack of movement does indeed have something to do with Carroll's alleged lack of movement or is it simply that when Carroll is playing, Hendo has orders to stay out wide and try to get crosses in?

      Personally I suspect the latter is most likely.
      Del Boca Vista
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 3,008 posts | 209 
      • do do do
      Re: The Movement of Four
      Reply #2: Mar 06, 2012 11:50:26 am
      pretty interesting article. it is obvious that suarez needs a strike partner and kuyt or maxi or bellamy are pretty sweet candidates for that - kuyt already showed last season he plays well with suarez but KK has gone a different route this year. obviously carroll the big money man needs playing time and the other factor is how KK likes setting the midfield up.

      obviously jordan has been asked to play different roles..that is okay because he is young.. next season I would hope he plays as a central midfielder which would be appetising next to a fit lucas, gerrard. since we have sunderland next we will surely see him start and in a position he will be comfortable in but then again who knows. I just hope KK really does have CL in mind because we're amazingly still in for a real shot! still have chelsea and newcastle to knock about which gets us very close. then we could drop maxi into the team.. remember last season..!! :D

      Adryan
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****
      • Started Topic

      • 17,704 posts | 378 
      • Cut my veins open and I bleed Liverpool Red.
      Re: The Movement of Four
      Reply #3: Mar 06, 2012 12:00:59 pm
      I would be tempted to ask whether Hendo's lack of movement does indeed have something to do with Carroll's alleged lack of movement or is it simply that when Carroll is playing, Hendo has orders to stay out wide and try to get crosses in?

      Personally I suspect the latter is most likely.

      It could also be Jordan's natural awareness, though. I mean, we know that Kuyt or Bellamy or Maxi are more mobile in comparison to Carroll and at one point of time in a match, would probably on the LW, RW, Forward or middle so knowing where they are, Jordan automatically goes to space vacated by them, hence his positioning appearing throughout the attacking half of the pitch.
      corballyred
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 17,707 posts | 307 
      Re: The Movement of Four
      Reply #4: Mar 06, 2012 12:51:51 pm
      I liked the football we played against arsenal. There was great movement.  Id add Maxi to that list of players we have with great movement. I think playing players like Adam and Carroll in a 4-4-2 does restrict this type of football because they do lack movement.
      Adryan
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****
      • Started Topic

      • 17,704 posts | 378 
      • Cut my veins open and I bleed Liverpool Red.
      Re: The Movement of Four
      Reply #5: Mar 06, 2012 01:38:07 pm
      Some of the best football I've seen this season were when Maxi, Bellamy, Kuyt, Suarez, Henderson and Lucas were in the team.
      Reprobate
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 11,055 posts | 436 
      • Avatar by Kitster29@Deviantart.com
      Re: The Movement of Four
      Reply #6: Mar 06, 2012 02:06:22 pm
      Some of the best football I've seen this season were when Maxi, Bellamy, Kuyt, Suarez, Henderson and Lucas were in the team.

      I agree but...

      Maxi     31, tends to become anonymous when he plays a few games on the trot,
      Bellamy    32, dodgy knees, can not play every game no matter how much we want it,
      Kuyt    still a machine but his early season form was abysmal,
      Suarez    suspended for 9 consecutive games
      Lucas    long term injury

      So although I agree that we play good stuff when they are in the side, realistically it's rarely been an option so the writer of that article can't really criticise Kenny.
      harrydunn08
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 5,927 posts | 969 
      Re: The Movement of Four
      Reply #7: Mar 06, 2012 02:20:56 pm
      I would be tempted to ask whether Hendo's lack of movement does indeed have something to do with Carroll's alleged lack of movement or is it simply that when Carroll is playing, Hendo has orders to stay out wide and try to get crosses in?

      This is a big part of our "problem" in my opinion.  I have watched many games this season where we play a rigid formation and attempt to have our wide players stay wide and feed the big man with crosses.  We end up whipping in dozens of crosses, and typically around 8-10 corners, none of which end up in the back of the net courtesy of big Andy.  The problem is that Andy is not quick enough to peel away from a marker at the last minute before the cross comes in, so he always finds himself marked by at least one, if not 2 CB's when he gets a ball whipped in. 

      The other problem with us trying to play like this is that most of our wingers are not really wingers.  None of our wide players really have the pace or skill to consistently beat a man on the outside and force the opposition's defenders to reshuffle.  When a player like Nani, Valencia, Nasri, Walcott, Mata, etc gets the ball out wide, they all have a knack for skinning their marker and moving towards goal.  This forces the CB to the inside to move out to close him down, which creates space in the box which is ideal for a goal poacher.  We do not really have a winger that can perform this role for us, and thus we do not manage to create the right types of opportunities for our big lad in up front when we play such a rigid formation.

      I completely agree with the majority on here that our best footie is played when Carrol is not on the pitch.  We see better movement, and in turn, better passing because players tend to find themselves with more options to choose from when picking a pass.  It is rare that I will find myself doing this, but I do think that Corbally had it bang on last summer when he said (over and over and over again) that we should have been building the team around Suarez as opposed to building around Carrol.....
      Carlos Qiqabal
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
      • *****

      • 1,119 posts | 56 
      Re: The Movement of Four
      Reply #8: Mar 06, 2012 03:02:21 pm

      We don't seem to value possession and more importantly 'control' like we did when rafa was in charge. Instead of playing a high line, heavy pressing Sacchi style game we are often now content to drop off and only press in our own half looking to hit on the counter.

      This wasn't the case last season but has been since we started this one - I don't know the reason why and whether it is Kenny or Steve Clarke's strategy.

      But the point is we may retain more possession with the 'fantastic four' but be more toothless in attack in a season where we're struggling to score already. Suarez, Kuyt, Downing and Henderson have not exactly dazzled in front of goal.
      Swab
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****

      • 13,361 posts | 3462 
      Re: The Movement of Four
      Reply #9: Mar 06, 2012 07:56:45 pm
      We don't seem to value possession and more importantly 'control' like we did when rafa was in charge. Instead of playing a high line, heavy pressing Sacchi style game we are often now content to drop off and only press in our own half looking to hit on the counter.

      This wasn't the case last season but has been since we started this one - I don't know the reason why and whether it is Kenny or Steve Clarke's strategy.

      But the point is we may retain more possession with the 'fantastic four' but be more toothless in attack in a season where we're struggling to score already. Suarez, Kuyt, Downing and Henderson have not exactly dazzled in front of goal.

      I have a feeling it's clarkes strategy because our shape looks very similar to chelsea when he was there.
      Bozkat
      • Forum Igor Biscan
      • **

      • 124 posts |
      Re: The Movement of Four
      Reply #10: Mar 06, 2012 09:17:17 pm
      Good article, though Im not convinced that Carrol's not mobile. Arguably slow.Was disappointed that he didn't come on sooner as I feel there's goals in him.We did play well on Saturday, (as we have on many occasions this season), but had no cutting edge. With Gerrard unavailable, I felt that Maxi is the only natural goal scorer in the squad.By that I mean that he can read a game, takes up positions, can take a half chance with either foot or his head. Don't know what he's like at penalties.We either play the striker we've got and make it work or bring someone else in.
      corballyred
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 17,707 posts | 307 
      Re: The Movement of Four
      Reply #11: Mar 06, 2012 10:05:51 pm
      Mate Carroll is completely immobile. He suits one type of football and it ain't the football you saw against arsenal. Said it for the last twelve months you wont see the best of Suarez with Carroll beside him even started a thread about it.
      Scottbot
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 9,625 posts | 2160 
      Re: The Movement of Four
      Reply #12: Mar 06, 2012 10:35:41 pm
      Can't deny that the sort of line-up the article refers to is the the type of set-up I prefer to see. I think we're at our best with a front line that has intelligent movement, flexibility and a high work-rate with and without the ball. Unfortunately this is inevitably replaced with a different type of football when Carroll is in the side. It doesn't mean we can't pass it or play well but his prescence does effect the ability to press the ball effectively which requires your front players to hunt in packs. You also lose the interchanging between positions that the writer was alluding too when the likes of Kuyt, Henderson, Downing or Maxi are in the side alongside Suarez.

      You can't help but sense that Kenny sees this himself because Andy has been omitted for several big game this season. As for it being Carroll's fault that he doesn't get on the end of crosses, I think that's a little unfair. Yes he does get caught on his heels at times and he also needs to get across his man (or the front man) as he did against Wolves to finish a few games back but I also think that centre-halves are simply much better at dealing with crosses in the modern game. Keepers come and make punches rather than trying to claim catches and most teams play a 5 man midfield which means you've often got an extra body in the box to deal with as well. It simply isn't as effective a sit used to be. I've got no idea of the stats but i'll bet that less goals are scored from crosses in open play today when compared to 10-15-20 years ago.
      corballyred
      • Banned
      • *****

      • 17,707 posts | 307 
      Re: The Movement of Four
      Reply #13: Mar 06, 2012 10:50:34 pm
      Excellent point about crosses Scott.  I saw a stat against blackburn where we hit in 57 crosses Carroll was playing. How many did we score
      Scottbot
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 9,625 posts | 2160 
      Re: The Movement of Four
      Reply #14: Mar 06, 2012 11:01:34 pm
      Excellent point about crosses Scott.  I saw a stat against blackburn where we hit in 57 crosses Carroll was playing. How many did we score

      I also think that both the quality of crossing and also the decision of when to cross (and when to pass) has been lacking somewhat. Downing has been hot and cold although at times his crossing has been excellent and he is very capable of putting a good ball in at pace. Enrique and Kelly are both fairly average when it comes to putting a ball in the box and Jonno also tends to stand his delivery up so that it is up to Carroll (or whoever) to get the pace on the ball. Gerrard is the one player in the side who can put a ball in with whip and bend but unfortunately he has been out of the side for long spells and has also played the holding role for much of the time with Lucas out injured so we're really missing that from his game when Carroll is in the side. I also think one of our most effective plays when Carroll is in the team is the clipped ball to the corner edge of the box that we've seen played from left to right a few times. You can't do it from too far away but Carroll is great at getting his body between the defender and winning something there for a breaking middie or his strike partner. I'd love to see more of that.
      vulcan_red
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 2,580 posts | 212 
      Re: The Movement of Four
      Reply #15: Mar 06, 2012 11:08:56 pm
      I always like to see Dirk and Luis playing together. I also like to throw Maxi into the mix. This is the way I like to see football played however it  doesn't always get results. Especially if you think that of the 4 players mentioned none has been prolific (nor has Andy mind). However Andy is 22 and could become a lethal weapon if he develops. The idea being that he can keep the ball high up the pitch. Personally I think variation is important. We have to have different ways of playing and we need to use these different ways when necessary. You can only play the tactics you think are right. It doesn't mean you always win.
      -LFC-
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 4,245 posts | 1226 
      Re: The Movement of Four
      Reply #16: Mar 06, 2012 11:42:49 pm
      Good article.

      Carroll's inclusion has tended to adversely affect the movement and performance of the team because his touch, control and movement are too often our of sync. with the likes of Suarez and Kuyt. The service has also been lacking, but, in my opinion, it's more a question of Carroll having to improve his game than it is the team having to adapt to his one-dimensional abilities.  However, what most impresses me are the coloured dots. If we improve our coloured dots by making them more prominent and darker higher up the pitch, we should real see progress made.
      Adryan
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
      • *****
      • Started Topic

      • 17,704 posts | 378 
      • Cut my veins open and I bleed Liverpool Red.
      Re: The Movement of Four
      Reply #17: Mar 07, 2012 12:13:24 am
      The problem with our crossing is ...

      it's either that Downing, Enrique or Gerrard puts a very good ball inside, but there's no one in the box to finish it or when there's someone in the box, the cross is usually bad.

      Maybe the players need to get into the 6 yard box more and of course, have someone at the edge of the 18 yard area in case the ball rebounds there. We hardly see that type of goals Gerrard used to score when he was younger. I mean, I don't necessarily mean he has to be scoring those but there's no one else there in general.

      Quick Reply