One point better off than last season...

We're also a trophy better off and guaranteed European football before March better off.

Well said that man.

There are too many bringers of doom on forums & phone in's.

All is good at LFC right now, we are progressing well IMO, with a new manager, new owners, new players, sh*t don't happen overnight like.

I havent brought them up go back and check the thread. The main stats i brought up are goals scored points dropped at home and our record in the last ten games.  Again in terms of chances its about quality not quantity why i think personally it is an irrevelant stat personally. We havent dominated games either lately barring arsenal did we dominate bolton or utd

I havent brought them up go back and check the thread. The main stats i brought up are goals scored points dropped at home and our record in the last ten games.  Again in terms of chances its about quality not quantity why i think personally it is an irrevelant stat personally. We havent dominated games either lately barring arsenal did we dominate bolton or utd

We have failed to dominate 4 games this season out of 26 played. Bolton away, Man utd away, Man City away and Spurs away. That to me indicates that the team as a unit is doing a good job, the fact that we have not won the majority of the games we have dominated at home indicates that we are not effective in the final third. The fact that we have created ample good chances to have won most of those games indicates that it our finishing that is the problem.

On the subject of shots to goals, prior to saturdays game

Liverpool have had 338 shots, 140 on target. 29 goals

Arsenal have had 329 shots, 164 on target.  53 goals   

Man utd Have had 312 shots 166 on target.  63 goals

Bolton have had   220 shots  112 on target.  29 goals


 http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11662_2705370,00.html   

Hmm... that 'Table' is very interesting; assuming, of course, it doesn't lie.

A very simple bit of maths would show that if our team had the same shots to 'shots on target ratio' as Man U; i.e. 1.88 to 1 then we would now have 180 'shots' on target'.

Extrapolate that further - 'shots on target' to goals ratio: Man U = 2.63 to 1 and we would have now scored 68 goals.

Make of this what you will but it is factual.

Obviously this table or "collection of statistics", (if you prefer), doesn't tell the whole truth but hey, you can't have it every way; can you?

Personally I believe it proves what everyone already knows but not everyone will admit, that is; only lack of prowess in front of goal has cost us points... given that our defensive record is excellent. It would follow, surely, that those 'missing' points would have seen us higher in the League than we are currently.

Hell... let's go one step further - but for the want of better finishing most of us wouldn't be having this "debate". In my opinion of course. By the way, it would be idiotic for anyone to deny that penalties, shots which hit the woodwork and shots that bring out great saves aren't "quality" chances.

I've never been able to collect a bet when there's still two furlongs left to run. So if we want to be mature about this, instead of being hysterical, wouldn't it be better waiting until the race is run?

See i disagree a shot from 35yards is considered a chance.  I think there is an issue with the quality of chances we create and why a top class attacking midfielder is every bit as important as a striker in the summer.

So if we want to be mature about this, instead of being hysterical, wouldn't it be better waiting until the race is run?

It's a fair point and I think the opening post was a bit premature and pessimistic to say the least.

If we finish the season one point better off than last in the same position or even slightly lower for that matter I would still say progress has been made as I have watched this team play some excellent football, dominate teams for most of the season and won a trophy with still the possibility of another.

We will also be in Europe again next season and again that is progress no matter how you measure it.

I still believe and it's been mentioned numerous times in this thread that league position and points gained is a much too simplistic way of measuring progress.

Yeah the table doesn't tell of the quality of chances. The likes of Carroll, Suarez, Gerrard, Adam, Downing all love to have a pop from distances. Andy Carroll tries to header every cross on goal even when he can never score from off of it.

I'd guess when it is whittled down to golden chances we'd see that we've not created as  many as we should do. No doubt we have managed to bomb some real easy chances as well though, the  key is to buy a poacher (Darren Bent gets bad press but he is just that) and a midfield schemer just behind the front man. Perhaps even Suarez could be the man to play in the whole.

I still believe and it's been mentioned numerous times in this thread that league position and points gained is a much too simplistic way of measuring progress.

Way, way, too simplistic, in my opinion.

Statistics are useful but never tell the whole truth and the fact is (when we look this thread and others) all of us who readily dismiss stats, which don't 'suit' them, then use and demand stats which do. Watch, wait and learn. 

Like you I can see progress but (like anyone who doesn't) that is only an opinion. Thankfully I'm not too attached to my opinion for me ever not conceding that I may be wrong. I see it as it is and realise that every arsehole has one... er... that is the right turn of phrase... isn't it? 

Yeah the table doesn't tell of the quality of chances...

...I'd guess when it is whittled down to golden chances we'd see that we've not created as  many as we should do

Like I said it doesn't tell the whole truth - no table ever does but even if we dismiss every other chance... there can be no denying that penalties, shots which hit the woodwork and shots that bring out great saves aren't "quality" chances. How many of them have we had?

One thing I have noticed while looking at stats for chances created is that Adam, Henderson and Downing were all in the top group last season, top ten if you don't include strikers.  http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/blog/_/name/martin_james/id/6942795

So maybe that goes some way to explaining why we bought those three anyway.

"Indeed, only four players have provided more chances than Downing in the Premier League in the last six years "

Being saying that all season mate. Stat was obviously used. Not a major fan of them stats especially when you see brunt and davies so high up also

As with most things, people only like stats that prove their point or opinion.

Hmm... that 'Table' is very interesting; assuming, of course, it doesn't lie.

Like I said it doesn't tell the whole truth - no table ever does but even if we dismiss every other chance... there can be no denying that penalties, shots which hit the woodwork and shots that bring out great saves aren't "quality" chances. How many of them have we had?

Indeed and I've highlighted just three games in this thread where if just one chance per game went in and not hit the woodwork we would be sitting four points behind Arsenal, game on hand and probably not having this discussion.

One thing I have noticed while looking at stats for chances created is that Adam, Henderson and Downing were all in the top group last season, top ten if you don't include strikers. http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/blog/_/name/martin_james/id/6942795

So maybe that goes some way to explaining why we bought those three anyway.

... And maybe that's why we've created so many 'chances' this season? Interesting. 

Unless people are analyzing the chances chance by chance they are only guessing. As Diego has posted west ham had more chances than man city last season what does that tell you ut that particular stat.

Being saying that all season mate. Stat was obviously used. Not a major fan of them stats especially when you see brunt and davies so high up also

Another example how you like to use stats when they suit you and then when they don't.

I get what you are saying Corb, I agree that we need one or two new players in attacking areas, I'd personally target a little locksmith type behind the front man first.

But I can't agree that for the most part we haven't played good football apart from maybe 3 games throughout the season.. But how many teams along the course of the season play well in all games? The side in the top 2-3 just find a way to win and this new side we have put together which is essentially 7 new players in a year hasn't found those ways yet.

I haven't come out of games often this season thinking this is a disaster where are we going? I've come out frustrated that we haven't taken chances we have created.

One or two top quality players in this side and we will be right up there. I still stand by the thought that we are in a false position in the league. Had we hit the bar half the time or put a couple more penaltys away we wouldn't be where we are.

Unless people are analyzing the chances chance by chance they are only guessing. As Diego has posted west ham had more chances than man city last season what does that tell you ut that particular stat.

That it is no wonder Citeh spent so much on Aguero

Unless people are analyzing the chances chance by chance they are only guessing. As Diego has posted west ham had more chances than man city last season what does that tell you ut that particular stat.

That they missed the chances they created as well.

Pd the only stat that matters is points up on the board the rest of the stats is open to interpretation.  Chances created is irrevelant unless they start giving points for it. As i said earlier a shot from thirty five yards is considered a chance.

That they missed the chances they created as well.

Simple really and shouldn't be too difficult to comprehend. 

Pd the only stat that matters is points up on the board the rest of the stats is open to interpretation.  Chances created is irrevelant unless they start giving points for it. As i said earlier a shot from thirty five yards is considered a chance.

Only if you're a tunnel vision trying to prove a point type. Your asking if we have improved from a year ago and many people have given you reasons why we have..
Yes the table is the only thing that matters at the end of the season but if your telling me that we haven't been playing well and we are progressing then I'm lost with your argument.

I don't think the majority of the shots that we have hit the bar or post with or the saves keepers have made or penaltys we have missed have been beyond 35 yards..



I understand you were a big Rafa fan, I really liked the man too. Can you tell me did you give the same arguments and pulling apart when we missed out on the Champions League those times under him?

Pd the only stat that matters is points up on the board the rest of the stats is open to interpretation.

I'll presume you mean position in the table as points gained is all relative to the amount of points other clubs get.

Still not a total measurement of progress in my opinion.

I'll presume you mean position in the table as points gained is all relative to the amount of points other clubs get.

Still not a total measurement of progress in my opinion.

If that's the case I'm finishing work early and am off to celebrate the league title from 09' because those points would have won us the league in other seasons.