What League Position Is Unacceptable

At the moment we are a mere 4 points above 13th placed norwich and only 2 points above Everton. I would like to know how low we would have to finishe before it became a real problem.
For me if we finish below Everton it is completely unnacceptable, a mickey mouse club with a mickey mouse budget. Progress is not finishing below one of your most bitter rivals for the first time in 7 years after investing more than their whole squad is worth. And then I believe somebody should be held accountable.

2nd and anywhere below!

Answer was obvious, 2nd and anything below is of course the right answer.

If 2nd is unacceptable at what position should bsomebody be held accountable?

Again anything below winning is missing our ultimate goal so not achieving that someone will be held accountable. The real question you're looking to ask is:

What league position finish is low enough to consider it correct to sack Kenny Dalglish?

Frankly I don't like the tone of the questions as it's pretty much been raised in other threads and covered well and truly.

Eight points closer to the bottom of the table than the top.

Nine years ago ...2003... since losing three on the bounce.

This is Liverpool Football Club.



That is accountable ...... right now.

Anything other than 1st.

I would imagine the answer you will get from most will be anything other that first and you can see why most would have that viewpoint because of our history and the fact we have now went 20 odd years without a title and have for the first time in history been overtaken from them on the titles front.

What I will say is, what happens in the cups does affect what I find acceptable in the league.

2004/05 was my favourite season being a Liverpool fan in 20 years for obvious reasons and we finished 5th in the league that season!

This season, I am as disappointed as as anyone with where we are in the league, but if we finish with a Carling Cup and FA Cup in the trophy cabinet, the fact is, it will have been our most successful season in 6 years.

Realisticaly, getting back in the top 4 where we were established for years until 2 seasons ago has to be the aim.

People are going to have to accept that we aren't going to just win the league without a few seasons in the top 4 behind us. It's took Man City 3 or 4 seasons to get in this position.

Patience and keep the faith is needed from everyone at the club.

5th or 6th this season and write it off as a poor league season where we had good cup runs. Top 4 next season. Challenging for the league within a season or 2 of that.

If 2nd is unacceptable at what position should bsomebody be held accountable?

Everyone. Owners, managers, coaches, scouts and players. No 1 person is ever soley accountable

I would imagine the answer you will get from most will be anything other that first and you can see why most would have that viewpoint because of our history and the fact we have now went 20 odd years without a title and have for the first time in history been overtaken from them on the titles front.

What I will say is, what happens in the cups does affect what I find acceptable in the league.

2004/05 was my favourite season being a Liverpool fan in 20 years for obvious reasons and we finished 5th in the league that season!

This season, I am as disappointed as as anyone with where we are in the league, but if we finish with a Carling Cup and FA Cup in the trophy cabinet, the fact is, it will have been our most successful season in 6 years.

Realisticaly, getting back in the top 4 where we were established for years until 2 seasons ago has to be the aim.

People are going to have to accept that we aren't going to just win the league without a few seasons in the top 4 behind us. It's took Man City 3 or 4 seasons to get in this position.

Patience and keep the faith is needed from everyone at the club.

5th or 6th this season and write it off as a poor league season where we had good cup runs. Top 4 next season. Challenging for the league within a season or 2 of that.

the question I am really asking is not if Kenny should be manager but at what position should a Liverpools managers job be questioned if you were to take his past reputation out of the question. The problem is on form we could finish as low as 10th. People are saying if we win the Carling Cup and FA Cup it will be fine but the FA Cup is still a long long way away judging by our recent form
Judging by what we have achieved this season so far(FA Cup is far from in the bag) I am very unhappy, I am just as happy as the next fan to win the Carling Cup but lets not get ahead of ourselves, its a second rate competition and does not hide a disastorous season.

its a second rate competition and does not hide a disastorous season.

Get that idea out of your head, NO, it isn't a second rate competition at all, that idea's been put in your head by all the media/ fans of other clubs who think it's not worthy just because they haven't won it.

It's a passport into Europe, it was certainly good enough for our esteemed Managers of yesteryear and it's certainly good enough today as well.

I'd agree with you that our League campaign has been pretty dire, but the season isn't over yet, let's not jump the gun too early eh.

For me if we finish below Everton it is completely unnacceptable

Well we did in 2004/05. We also won the European Cup that year - was that season unacceptable?

I am just as happy as the next fan to win the Carling Cup but lets not get ahead of ourselves, its a second rate competition and does not hide a disastorous season.

Well the sentence that precedes the one I've quoted suggests you're not as happy as some. In fact in the very sentence before you claim you're unhappy with what we've achieved.

Judging by what we have achieved this season so far(FA Cup is far from in the bag) I am very unhappy,

Furthermore, the League Cup isn't a second rate competition and anybody who thinks it is needs to sort themselves out. The League Cup is the only competition in England to be won four years on the trot by the same club. Do you know who did that? We did between 81 and 84. The League Cup is the only competition to of been involved in both of our trebles - 84 and 2001. The League Cup is the only piece of silverware to of been won this season - we won it. Our first trophy in six years, that's more important than any poxy F***ing fourth place finish or are you one these jolly come latelys who is only interested in Champions League football and everything else can go hang? One of those who isn't arsed if we come first, second, third or fourth just as long as we get in the Champions League. The type of fan that doesn't understand this club.

What's unacceptable for Liverpool Football Club is coming second. That's why we're the most successful club in English football because we don't accept second best. We didn't accept second best from the outset in the League Cup and won it for a record eighth time. Kenny won't be accepting second best.

All this bollocks of "we could finish as low as..." well so F***ing what. We could finish first. The likelihood is we're not going to but we could. You wanna talk about where we could end up, how about you put your F***ing arse in gear and realise we could finish higher than where we are rather than coming out with yet another doom and gloom thread about how fu**ed up we are.

Fucks sake I was brought up with the belief that when Liverpool find themselves hard up on the pitch, those off are more united as one than ever. They sing louder and prouder. They believe and inspire more than ever. But nah not anymore. That's not the message being put into the next generation of fan. Nah, the next generation fan is being fed the belief that when times are hard you just sit and sulk. You just sit there and think you've got a god given right to be handed things. And when things go wrong, blame some other f**ker.

Christ, I love this club as much as anybody. But there's too many Liverpool "fans" who I F***ing dispise. Somebody was talking the other day about me believing I'm a better fan than others. And I said well there are some who aren't "true" fans. This just goes to F***ing prove it. Winning trophies isn't enough anymore, not even for the possibly the greatest player, possibly the greatest manager and possibly the greatest human being ever to grace the turf of Anfield.

What's unacceptable? What's unacceptable is we've just won our first trophy in six years and we're still trying to find ways to get rid of Kenny Dalglish as our manager. That's unacceptable.

F**k it, I'm outta here. Can't bare soft cu*ts without a clue anymore. Need to go to kip before I launch this laptop in the direction of a wall.

Get that idea out of your head, NO, it isn't a second rate competition at all, that idea's been put in your head by all the media/ fans of other clubs who think it's not worthy just because they haven't won it.

It's a passport into Europe, it was certainly good enough for our esteemed Managers of yesteryear and it's certainly good enough today as well.

I'd agree with you that our League campaign has been pretty dire, but the season isn't over yet, let's not jump the gun too early eh.

not jumping the gun, if I offered this league position along with a Carling Cup to 90% of the Liverpool fans I would be laughed at. I was simply asking the question when does our form become unnacceptable because to me it is right now.
A ticket to Europe? Werent we singing Thursday night football at the Utd fans at the last game, thats us next season. Thats also a second rate competition, nice to win but nothing to boast about. I wanna boast about Champions League wins, Premier League wins and FA cup wins, nothing else, I was brought up to expect the best from Liverpool, that is far from what I am getting right now, I am glad that at least some of you feel a Carling Cup is good enough for Liverpool F.C, having such low expectations must be great but to me a major competition is what we should be winning.
 I actually laugh when I think you are happy with a Carling Cup win, do you honestly think Shankly would of thought of that as a successful campaign?

Well we did in 2004/05. We also won the European Cup that year - was that season unacceptable?

Well the sentence that precedes the one I've quoted suggests you're not as happy as some. In fact in the very sentence before you claim you're unhappy with what we've achieved.

Furthermore, the League Cup isn't a second rate competition and anybody who thinks it is needs to sort themselves out. The League Cup is the only competition in England to be won four years on the trot by the same club. Do you know who did that? We did between 81 and 84. The League Cup is the only competition to of been involved in both of our trebles - 84 and 2001. The League Cup is the only piece of silverware to of been won this season - we won it. Our first trophy in six years, that's more important than any poxy f**king fourth place finish or are you one these jolly come latelys who is only interested in Champions League football and everything else can go hang? One of those who isn't arsed if we come first, second, third or fourth just as long as we get in the Champions League. The type of fan that doesn't understand this club.

What's unacceptable for Liverpool Football Club is coming second. That's why we're the most successful club in English football because we don't accept second best. We didn't accept second best from the outset in the League Cup and won it for a record eighth time. Kenny won't be accepting second best.

All this bollocks of "we could finish as low as..." well so f**king what. We could finish first. The likelihood is we're not going to but we could. You wanna talk about where we could end up, how about you put your f**king arse in gear and realise we could finish higher than where we are rather than coming out with yet another doom and gloom thread about how fu**ed up we are.

Fucks sake I was brought up with the belief that when Liverpool find themselves hard up on the pitch, those off are more united as one than ever. They sing louder and prouder. They believe and inspire more than ever. But nah not anymore. That's not the message being put into the next generation of fan. Nah, the next generation fan is being fed the belief that when times are hard you just sit and sulk. You just sit there and think you've got a god given right to be handed things. And when things go wrong, blame some other f**ker.

Christ, I love this club as much as anybody. But there's too many Liverpool "fans" who I f**king dispise. Somebody was talking the other day about me believing I'm a better fan than others. And I said well there are some who aren't "true" fans. This just goes to f**king prove it. Winning trophies isn't enough anymore, not even for the possibly the greatest player, possibly the greatest manager and possibly the greatest human being ever to grace the turf of Anfield.

What's unacceptable? What's unacceptable is we've just won our first trophy in six years and we're still trying to find ways to get rid of Kenny Dalglish as our manager. That's unacceptable.

F**k it, I'm outta here. Can't bare soft cu*ts without a clue anymore. Need to go to kip before I launch this laptop in the direction of a wall.

Getting in the Champions league means attracting the best footballers to this club which in turn means challenging for better trophies. Simple logic but its obviously a little difficult for you since to you us fans only want Champions league football, to me us fans want what is best for the club in the long run. Maybe you fans who think finishing 10th with a Carling Cup is what is damaging the club.

Getting in the Champions league means attracting the best footballers to this club which in turn means challenging for better trophies. Simple logic but its obviously a little difficult for you since to you us fans only want Champions league football, to me us fans want what is best for the club in the long run. Maybe you fans who think finishing 10th with a Carling Cup is what is damaging the club.

Tell me then who is the best player at the club? Because if your answer is Luis Suarez, he signed when we weren't a Champions League club. So attracting the best players is a load of F***ing bollocks, players want to win trophies not count how many times they came fourth.

Tell me then who is the best player at the club? Because if your answer is Luis Suarez, he signed when we weren't a Champions League club. So attracting the best players is a load of f**king bollocks, players want to win trophies not count how many times they came fourth.

Reina, I think is our best player, Scouse adopted and irreplaceable, I would also go as far to say as we struggle more when Agger is injured than Suarez was out. And answer me this do you honestly believe a world class player is gonna say Ill join Liverpool, they won the Carling Cup last year, dont make me laugh?

Reina, I think is our best player, Scouse adopted and irreplaceable, I would also go as far to say as we struggle more when Agger is injured than Suarez was out. And answer me this do you honestly believe a world class player is gonna say Ill join Liverpool, they won the Carling Cup last year, dont make me laugh?

Suarez did without us winning the Carling Cup. So why not?

Anything below 1st. Yeah give me a break!

We have not won the title for 20 odd years. Acceptable for us sadly is 4th. With our current squad it would be a magnificent achievement.

Anything below 1st. Yeah give me a break!

We have not won the title for 20 odd years. Acceptable for us sadly is 4th. With our current squad it would be a magnificent achievement.

Oh just F**k off lad.

4th is never an achievement for this club let alone a magnificent one. Then again you're the one who was only interested in the League Cup providing you could brag about it to your mates so it's no surprise you don't understand the club.

not jumping the gun, if I offered this league position along with a Carling Cup to 90% of the Liverpool fans I would be laughed at. I was simply asking the question when does our form become unnacceptable because to me it is right now.

Our form has been "unacceptable" for the past 22 years. If Liverpool fans laugh at trophies won by our players, then they don't know what a Liverpool fan is.

A ticket to Europe? Werent we singing Thursday night football at the Utd fans at the last game, thats us next season. Thats also a second rate competition, nice to win but nothing to boast about.

At least they have European football, albeit hopefully for not much longer. Bollocks is it a second rate competition, it's the next biggest club prize in Europe after the CL, and if we're in it, I want to win it too. My local club made the group phase of the competition this season, and it was like Christmas coming early. Better that than sitting on our backsides all week waiting to get beaten at f***in' Sunderland.   

I wanna boast about Champions League wins, Premier League wins and FA cup wins, nothing else,

There's plenty of other clubs out there to suit those wishes. 

I was brought up to expect the best from Liverpool, that is far from what I am getting right now, I am glad that at least some of you feel a Carling Cup is good enough for Liverpool F.C, having such low expectations must be great but to me a major competition is what we should be winning.

We don't have low expectations, most of us have realistic ones, and again the League Cup is a major domestic competition.

I actually laugh when I think you are happy with a Carling Cup win, do you honestly think Shankly would of thought of that as a successful campaign?

Shanks would say what I would say. A cup is a cup.

players want to win trophies not count how many times they came fourth.

4th is never an achievement for this club

Well, Glen Johnson did say how coming 4th was the main objective for Liverpool than winning the Carling Cup. So that kind of disproves your theory.

“I think it would be a failure to miss out on the Champions League,” said Johnson. “Purely because that was the main objective, but of course you’d rather not finish in the top four with a trophy, then end up with nothing from the season.
“The ideal is to finish in the top four certainly, but I think everyone is pleased we’ve got a trophy, and hopefully we can pick up another one.
“Definitely the main aim for this season, and every season, is the top four."

So did Bellamy. Top 4 was obviously the main objective of this season.

If you want to win more than just the League Cup you need to be finishing in the top 4. If you don't, you won't be showcasing the team on the biggest stage, you won't be getting the revenue, you won't be catching the eye of big players, you won't be able to build a squad to get close to winning the league, you won't be winning the European Cup. But you might win many more League Cups. If that makes you happy, so be it.

2nd and anywhere below!

Here, Here.

A + for you

Fourth spot was our target at the start of the season and it will be the same next season, anyone thinking at the start of next season we're going to be challenging for the league needs to realize where we now are as a club.

Winning League Cup is one thing but wanting to be spoken as the best alongside the others is another.

While I'm happy with the cup win, it's just not enough for a club like Liverpool.

If you want to win more than just the League Cup you need to be finishing in the top 4. If you don't, you won't be showcasing the team on the biggest stage, you won't be getting the revenue, you won't be catching the eye of big players, you won't be able to build a squad to get close to winning the league, you won't be winning the European Cup. But you might win many more League Cups. If that makes you happy, so be it.

Liverpool do not exist to finish in Top 4 positions. Liverpool exist to win trophies. Kenny has delivered on that score now, and in the past.

This is not a sweet shop, you can't pick and choose what you want when you want, winning trophies glamourous or not, is hard work. Many fail to win one all year. Of course we want more than League Cups, but I'd rather win that than win what Arsenal have won in the past 7 years. Finishing in the Top 4 didn't help them much in the long run.

Ive a funny feeling if arsenal finish in top 4 this season you will see a change in their transfer policy.

Anything below 4th.  Reasons:
1) The momentum we showed in the second half of last season should have carried us forward to further improvement this time.
2) Arsenal and Chelsea have lost ground and we should be taking advantage of that.
3) The money spent on new players should, after some settling-in time, have produced improved performances.
4) A crack at CL football is what a club of our stature should always be aiming for.

Liverpool do not exist to finish in Top 4 positions. Liverpool exist to win trophies. Kenny has delivered on that score now, and in the past.

This is not a sweet shop, you can't pick and choose what you want when you want, winning trophies glamourous or not, is hard work. Many fail to win one all year. Of course we want more than League Cups, but I'd rather win that than win what Arsenal have won in the past 7 years. Finishing in the Top 4 didn't help them much in the long run.

Of course we don't exist to finish in the top 4. I would not be happy finishing in the top 4 every year with nothing to show for it. However, do you not agree that to compete for the biggest trophies consistently you must be in the top European competition and challenging for the league?  You can't do either of these outside the top 4. To get where we want to be we need to start by aiming for top 4. If that means missing out on a league cup until we get ourselves a solid foundation then we need to consider that.

2 years ago, City failed to make the Top 4. They're on course to hopefully win the league this, and spare us from opposition fans getting into the Road End on gameday, displaying "no. 20" wind-up banners.

They didn't change their coach then, we've no need to change ours now. The coach isn't the problem, the reality is the players are not good enough. And we can't change them until July. We have European football next year, which may attract a better quality of player that no European football could this year.

As happy as I was with winning the league cup I would swap that success if it meant we were to finish 4th!! The champions league is head and shoulders above the Europa League, we will find it much harder to attract the best players from around the globe if we were to finish lower than 4th which at the moment is lucking extremely likely barring us winning our final 11 league games.

I think Kenny should be given the summer and next season to turn things around but I would want to see incredible improvemnet in the first 10-12 league games next year!!  I dont think we've come that far since Kenny took charge 14 months ago!! Ok we've won the league cup, but that doesn't hide the fact that our league campaign has been a total disaster!! The new signings have been a major dissapointment!! 

2 years ago, City failed to make the Top 4. They're on course to hopefully win the league this, and spare us from opposition fans getting into the Road End on gameday, displaying "no. 20" wind-up banners.

They didn't change their coach then, we've no need to change ours now. The coach isn't the problem, the reality is the players are not good enough. And we can't change them until July. We have European football next year, which may attract a better quality of player that no European football could this year.

City have endless cash to wave under the noses of players like Silva and Aguero. We don't.

2 years ago, City failed to make the Top 4. They're on course to hopefully win the league this, and spare us from opposition fans getting into the Road End on gameday, displaying "no. 20" wind-up banners.
O
They didn't change their coach then, we've no need to change ours now. The coach isn't the problem, the reality is the players are not good enough. And we can't change them until July. We have European football next year, which may attract a better quality of player that no European football could this year.

Question do you think our owners will spend the same amounts of money as sheik mansour

Question do you think our owners will spend the same amounts of money as sheik mansour

Maybe not mate but they're going to have to buy more wisely than they did last summer because the likes of Charlie Adam, Stewart Downing and Andy Carroll have been total dissapointments!!

No maybe mate John Henry has said we wont be spending like man city.

The English dictionary defines the word 'unacceptable' as 'not satisfactory'.

As far as I'm concerned anything other than 1st or when we fail to win a competition we enter then that is not satisfactory.

It seems some of you however have let your standards slip and consider qualification for a CL playoff game is now the definition of acceptability.  Shame on you.

I dont think we need to spend massive amounts, the defence this season has been pretty solid, Enrique has been a decent buy, and Agger and Skrtel have been great this season.  I can also see the likes of Robinson, Flanagan, Kelly and Coates having great futures.

Me personally, I'd love to see Maxi brought back into the team, its one of the mysteries of the season how after such a fantastic end to last season he's barely featured this campaign, I'd have him out on the left every day over Downing!! We'll be in much better shape when Lucas returns from his injury.

I'd like us to strengthen on the right-hand side of the midfield and I think we need 1 maybe even 2 new strikers in the summer as well!!

I think this should have been entitled 'What League Position Should be the Minimum Requirement for Kenny's First Season in Charge'.

I think that is the question he would like answered.

If anybody in life consider's anything other than 1st place acceptable then they are content with being losers.

August last year, i would have said 6th and anything below is unacceptable given the amount of money we've spent.

August last year, i would have said 6th and anything below is unacceptable given the amount of money we've spent.

Given the ammount of money we spent , I think most of us thought 4th was a distinct possibility.
Losing Lucas has been a bigger blow than many of us thought . I think 6th is now looking the best we can do , even then we are going to have to go some to get that.
Maybe we expected too much , spending big money doesn't automatically bring success.
City have found that out , look how many players they have signed then moved on. The difference is we don't have City money we need to spend more wisely .
We should have signed a striker in January , our failure to do so has maybe cost us 4th.

Well, Glen Johnson did say how coming 4th was the main objective for Liverpool than winning the Carling Cup. So that kind of disproves your theory.

“I think it would be a failure to miss out on the Champions League,” said Johnson. “Purely because that was the main objective, but of course you’d rather not finish in the top four with a trophy, then end up with nothing from the season.
“The ideal is to finish in the top four certainly, but I think everyone is pleased we’ve got a trophy, and hopefully we can pick up another one.
“Definitely the main aim for this season, and every season, is the top four."

So F***ing what if that's what he believes. That disproves nothing lad. Alls that proves is Johnson would rather play in the Champions League than win trophies, which is not The Liverpool Way. We exist to win trophies, first is first, we've had our bad seasons to - we came second once. That's what this club stands for. Trophies are more important than fourth.

But hey you believe otherwise, I'm not surprised since you were one of the first to say you'd take fourth before a ball was kicked. Nothing surprises me on here anymore. I've come to realise that the current Liverpool fan base is not the same as the one I was brought up by. And like most things in football, I prefer the past much more to the modern.

But hey you believe otherwise, I'm not surprised since you were one of the first to say you'd take fourth before a ball was kicked.

Well the players, owners and Dalglish have been the ones talking about trying to break into the Top Four as the main goal in the league. Maybe that is a little more realistic than winning the title, for now.

It isn't just me that thinks breaking into the Top Four would be an achivement for this season.

Well the players, owners and Dalglish have been the ones talking about trying to break into the Top Four as the main goal in the league. Maybe that is a little more realistic than winning the title, for now.

It isn't just me that thinks breaking into the Top Four would be an achivement for this season.

I don't recall at the start of the season before a ball being kicked, our manager saying "how great it'd be for the most successful club in England to come fourth - the streets will be lined with Liverpool fans to watch us parade our fourth place finish" (or words to that affect).

Fourth is no achievement for Liverpool Football Club - end of.

Again anything below winning is missing our ultimate goal so not achieving that someone will be held accountable. The real question you're looking to ask is:

What league position finish is low enough to consider it correct to sack Kenny Dalglish?

Frankly I don't like the tone of the questions as it's pretty much been raised in other threads and covered well and truly.

Have to agree with this. If posters think Kenny should go why not grow some balls and say so? So many posts and threads kicking about in here saying the same thing without actually saying it.

What I will say is, what happens in the cups does affect what I find acceptable in the league.

True for me as well and many fans I think. A few times under Rafa we were hoping and expecting a title challenge only to be effectively out of the running by Christmas but it was largley off-set but some excellent performances in the Champions League. Add the Fa Cup to the one we've already got in the cabinet and everyone's opinion of where we finish in the league will be softened considerably.

Fourth is no achievement for Liverpool Football Club - end of.

Right now, of course, it would be.........

I don't recall at the start of the season before a ball being kicked, our manager saying "how great it'd be for the most successful club in England to come fourth - the streets will be lined with Liverpool fans to watch us parade our fourth place finish" (or words to that affect).

Fourth is no achievement for Liverpool Football Club - end of.

Well our owner, John Henry, said before the season started, that Liverpool's target was to finish in the top 4 this season, and that it would be a major disappointment if we failed to do so. With that target spiralling down to the club through the season, and now quite a few players along with the manager stating that 4th is the target this season.

Realistically Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs have better first teams and squads than us. Very hard to accept, but 6th is where I believed we would finish this season. At this rate i would take 8th, which is unacceptable. whether or not this squad will gel, only time will tell. In my eyes only Man City are way ahead in terms of personnel. We are not that far behind the other 4 teams with a couple of changes. Someone like Tevez would make the difference between us and top four.

Right now, of course, it would be.........

No it wouldn't.

Well our owner, John Henry, said before the season started, that Liverpool "must finish in the top 4" this season. With that target spiralling down to the club through the season, and now quite a few players along with the manager stating that 4th is the target this season.

No he didn't. He said it'd be a major disappointment but he did not say it was a must. And of course now the players and Kenny would take fourth because anything higher looks unlikely. They weren't talking about fourth at the start of the season unlike some "fans".

No he didn't. He said it'd be a major disappointment but he did not say it was a must. And of course now the players and Kenny would take fourth because anything higher looks unlikely. They weren't talking about fourth at the start of the season unlike some "fans".

My apologise for copying the wrong phase. My iPad quoted the title of the article instead. But my point still stands, that John Henry stated that 4th was our target, before the season even started.

So yes, my point till stands.

Unless you're saying you still feel we can finish higher than 4th this season? Even in our current predicament.

I'm sort of glad this thread was started, because it gives an insight into the mindset of the modern fans expectations, it is clear that becoming 4th is the be all and end all and possible inclusion into the CL,

what a sad f***in day this is, the great knowledgeable LFC fan becoming no more better than your average glory hunter, it f***in sickens me that today's targets at the outset of the league is to finish 3 places behind the champions and still be considered a success,

Shanks, Sir Bob, and uncle Joe must be spinning in their graves, what a f***in sh*t attitude to have, 4th only exists because the money men decided to expand the qualification level in each of the leagues in European football, England being awarded 3 qualifying positions and 1 entry into a pre-qualifying 2 legged tie, Germany have 4, italy i think 3, Spain 4, France 3, etc, dont quote me on these figures but i'm sure this is how it works,

so say the rules were changed again and England awarded another placement, would that mean the 5th being acceptable ??


Sir Bob was asked once about the amount of success LFC were having at the time, of course Bob being his modest self said it was down to the players, and that he'd been here thru the bad times aswell, one year we were second he said,now that's what i call a winning and successful attitude, coming from the most successful manager in the history of not only Liverpool FC, but in British football,


to answer the thread's question, well, until it's mathematically impossible to finish 4th, i don't really care, 4th is not successful, winning 1 cup possibly 2, is, you dont win F**k all in 4th, your not guaranteed CL football only a qualifying match pre-season, when your unfit, rusty, more liable to injury,

some of you lot out there need to give your head's a wobble, get your head out of your arse and stand up for the club in all competitions that this club enter, and when we win,you can go to all your mates who believe 4th is successful and gloat about how much silverware there is in the cabinet, and not how many 4th spots you have,

8 times our club have won the league cup, 5 times we have won the European cup, that's just two examples of how successful this club is, these sort of figures i can remember, but ask me how many times we have finished 4th,forget it,

sadly i'm starting to believe that the older more worldly wise supporter/fan is becoming as rare as rocking horse sh*t, and eventually will be replaced by the glory hunting neg-heads who only sing when we're winning, and that position is totally unacceptable for our club.

                        IKWT    YNWA

This season with the cup win and hopefully another cup coming our way, I will not moan too much wherever we finish. Desperately disappointed in our results this season, angry with the way we have performed in a couple of games, with yesterday being one, but Kenny has earned the right to be given time and a real chance of success in the league. Sadly that league success isn't going to happen this season...... but next season he will.   

Hopefully we as a club know better than to follow Chelsea sacking managers every two minutes. We lead, not follow, and Kenny just needs a little time, a little faith and lots of money in the summer.

The title has to be the aim of any Liverpool manager, and while accountants and Champ manager players are happy with top 4 so they can celebrate a few million extra in the bank, I like most supporters prefer to celebrate winning trophies and league titles, it is up to Kenny to win them for us. He has made a start by winning our first trophy for 6 years , but he knows as well as we do, that is only a start, we and Kenny want and expect more..... much more.   

To be fair, whilst we are sitting in 7th place with the possibility of dropping to 8th on Tuesday, to me, 4th place THIS season would be more than acceptable but it seems pretty unlikely we will finish as high as 4th place, the position that many people are saying means nothing/is crap etc.

I think the club set out for a 4th place target in recent seasons to ensure Champions League football = £s.

Doesn't mean you can't finish higher than 4th just because that's the minimum target. Also doesn't mean your happy to finish 4th or would celebrate wildly finishing 4th but it is a more realistic target than finishing 1st with the squad we have at our disposal this season and when you look at the squads of the current top 4.

The fans particularly the older ones set out for a target of 1st every season but whilst we hover about between 5th and 10th all season, 4th is a more realistic expectation.

As for the cup competitions, simply, your in them to win them. This crap that the Europa League and the Carling Cup are second rate competitions that mean nothing are views that are spewed out every season by those that aren't good enough to win these competitions.

To summarise, in my opinion, you go in to every single game in every single competition to win it which if successful you would win the lot in one season.

Realistically, we're in a position to challenge and win the cup competitions at this moment in time, but not  to win the league without an improvement in the squad, eg a second world class striker, a higher quality midfield to go along with Gerrard and so on. Without major investment, it will be a struggle to win the league with the squads we are challenging against for it.

So f**king what if that's what he believes. That disproves nothing lad. Alls that proves is Johnson would rather play in the Champions League than win trophies, which is not The Liverpool Way. We exist to win trophies, first is first, we've had our bad seasons to - we came second once. That's what this club stands for. Trophies are more important than fourth.

But hey you believe otherwise, I'm not surprised since you were one of the first to say you'd take fourth before a ball was kicked. Nothing surprises me on here anymore. I've come to realise that the current Liverpool fan base is not the same as the one I was brought up by. And like most things in football, I prefer the past much more to the modern.

Your argument is null and void about not finishing in the top 4.

If we dont finish in the top 4

1) we havent wont the PL (our main trophy)

2) We cant even compete for the next biggest trophy CL

Top 4 is a minimum requirement whether we like it to be or not for financial stability, player recruitment and worldwide brand recognition.

The team that won the carling cup last year are now in the championship. It was our reserves tester when we had CL and europa will be next year for us aswell.

not jumping the gun, if I offered this league position along with a Carling Cup to 90% of the Liverpool fans I would be laughed at. I was simply asking the question when does our form become unnacceptable because to me it is right now.
A ticket to Europe? Werent we singing Thursday night football at the Utd fans at the last game, thats us next season. Thats also a second rate competition, nice to win but nothing to boast about. I wanna boast about Champions League wins, Premier League wins and FA cup wins, nothing else, I was brought up to expect the best from Liverpool, that is far from what I am getting right now, I am glad that at least some of you feel a Carling Cup is good enough for Liverpool F.C, having such low expectations must be great but to me a major competition is what we should be winning.
 I actually laugh when I think you are happy with a Carling Cup win, do you honestly think Shankly would of thought of that as a successful campaign?

We"re sorry you"re not getting your moneys worth, would you like a refund

Your argument is null and void about not finishing in the top 4.

If we dont finish in the top 4

1) we havent wont the PL (our main trophy)

2) We cant even compete for the next biggest trophy CL

Top 4 is a minimum requirement whether we like it to be or not for financial stability, player recruitment and worldwide brand recognition.

I agree with this. If we get to the point again where we are legitimate contenders, then 1st is the goal and anything less is a true disappointment. At this moment, and probably next season too, the aim is/was to get back in the CL to be playing elite clubs on weekdays again. And so 4th (at a minimum) needs to be accomplished. It gives us money, it gives us status, and those two things get us players who will help us win the Premier League and become perennial contenders for it again.

We can complain about not winning the league when we have a club that actually has a realistic chance to win it. We don't right now, unfortunately.  And since we don't have "oil money", we need to find the next best thing -- Champions League money.

Top 4 is a minimum requirement whether we like it to be or not for financial stability, player recruitment and worldwide brand recognition.

The team that won the carling cup last year are now in the championship. It was our reserves tester when we had CL and europa will be next year for us aswell.

We are financially stable, our best player signed when we weren't a Champions League club and Liverpool Football Club needs F**k all for brand recognition. We're as big as any club world wide, everybody knows who we are whether we're in the Champions League or not. That's why we have so many fans from the four corners of the globe. Go and see how many fans world wide Tottenham and City have, both who've been in the Champions League more recently than us. Better yet, go and see how many fans world wide Chelsea have. Or Rangers and Celtic who are regulars in the Champions League. End of the day, the Champions League is not the be all and end all for us. And we don't need it for anything. We need to win trophies, which we have. And which we will continue to do including League titles on a regular basis once again under Kenny Dalglish.

And the team that won the Carling Cup last year are not in the Championship - the club is but the team isn't. 8 of the 11 players who started for Birmingham at Wembley are no longer at the club. It was our "reserve tester" when we had people who disrespected the tournament, Kenny set his stall out from the off. I believe he'd continue to do this in the future.

Well, Glen Johnson did say how coming 4th was the main objective for Liverpool than winning the Carling Cup. So that kind of disproves your theory.

“I think it would be a failure to miss out on the Champions League,” said Johnson. “Purely because that was the main objective, but of course you’d rather not finish in the top four with a trophy, then end up with nothing from the season.
“The ideal is to finish in the top four certainly, but I think everyone is pleased we’ve got a trophy, and hopefully we can pick up another one.
“Definitely the main aim for this season, and every season, is the top four."

Yes but he got arrested trying to rob a toilet seat!!

So he's hardly a barometer of what is acceptable or success to Liverpool Football Club.

Question do you think our owners will spend the same amounts of money as sheik mansour

Stupid question as I don't think they have the same riches as the Abu Dhabi mob.

Well, Glen Johnson did say how coming 4th was the main objective for Liverpool than winning the Carling Cup. So that kind of disproves your theory.

“I think it would be a failure to miss out on the Champions League,” said Johnson. “Purely because that was the main objective, but of course you’d rather not finish in the top four with a trophy, then end up with nothing from the season.
“The ideal is to finish in the top four certainly, but I think everyone is pleased we’ve got a trophy, and hopefully we can pick up another one.
“Definitely the main aim for this season, and every season, is the top four."

Don't mean to shoot you down or anything mate but Steven Gerrard has said himself that he would rather win the Carling Cup then finish fourth, he said himself Liverpool FC is all about winning trophies, which is more important than coming fourth. So our expectations for each season is to win everything whether them expectations are too high or too low are another matter.

That is a very stupid question corbally

Liverpool Football Club needs F**k all for brand recognition. We're as big as any club world wide

How many top-caliber players like Hazard, Robben, Tevez, Aguero, Mata, Fabregas, etc. have had quotes (their own quotes, not some fanciful Sun article) saying that they were considering Liverpool since summer 2011 or 2012? I can't remember one.

Now, how many have been quoted that they are interested in Man City, Man United, Barca, Real, Chelsea, Arsenal.  Lots. 

We ARE well-known, I agree. And with a few key moves we can be back in the elite. But at the moment we are merely "that club that used to be big".

In terms of our trophy aspirations then obviously we aspire to be first in every competition we are in.

Naturally, this means we can always improve and that's a healthy ethos to have.

But in terms of how we should think about the team when we don't meet this ideal target, then if we are realistic, we ought to accept reasonable progress towards our targets. That is, we should 'accept' reasonable progress.

If not, then we should view the majority of the club's history as being 'unacceptable', since we have more often failed to satisfy our trophy aspirations than we have met them. If we took that view, we would be inclined to make irrational decisions about the future of the club.

This season, we are better off in trophy terms having won our first one in six seasons, while in the league, although many of our performances suggest otherwise, we are no further forward in our league position.

Simple as that, really.

Don't mean to shoot you down or anything mate but Steven Gerrard has said himself that he would rather win the Carling Cup then finish fourth, he said himself Liverpool FC is all about winning trophies, which is more important than coming fourth. So our expectations for each season is to win everything whether them expectations are too high or too low are another matter.

That's because Stevie has been brought up with a Liverpool education.

How many top-caliber players like Hazard, Robben, Tevez, Aguero, Mata, Fabregas, etc. have had quotes (their own quotes, not some fanciful Sun article) saying that they were considering Liverpool since summer 2011 or 2012? I can't remember one.

Now, how many have been quoted that they are interested in Man City, Man United, Barca, Real, Chelsea, Arsenal.  Lots. 

We ARE well-known, I agree. And with a few key moves we can be back in the elite. But at the moment we are merely "that club that used to be big".

We are a big club regardless of what players say they wanna be here or not. Regardless of whether we're in the Champions League or not. Regardless of if we have a massive stadium or not.

WE ARE A BIG CLUB

That's because Stevie has been brought up with a Liverpool education.

I am not from Liverpool and actually live in London, but i have said many times to friends the whole point of a club is to win trophies not where you finish in the league unless first, especially see myself saying it to the Arsenal fans who see finishing fourth as better than winning a trophy and even when i say a cup double they feel there 4th finish is better, same with united fans and second. As a supporter i want to see our players winning trophies and i want to be shitting myself watching them in penalty shoot outs in finals not scrapping over fourth, for me champions league is a bonus where as trophies are a must for the club.

I am not from Liverpool and actually live in London, but i have said many times to friends the whole point of a club is to win trophies not where you finish in the league unless first, especially see myself saying it to the Arsenal fans who see finishing fourth as better than winning a trophy and even when i say a cup double they feel there 4th finish is better, same with united fans and second. As a supporter i want to see our players winning trophies and i want to be shitting myself watching them in penalty shoot outs in finals not scrapping over fourth, for me champions league is a bonus where as trophies are a must for the club.

Well said mate 

Yes, but you wouldn't continue to be content if all we ever did was win domestic cups and made no progress in the league. Some competitions are more prestigious than others and we shouldn't kid ourselves otherwise. Yes, trophy success of any kind is welcome, but to maintain our reputation going forward, we need to be challenging for league titles and European cups.

Yes, but you wouldn't continue to be content if all we ever did was win domestic cups and made no progress in the league. Some competitions are more prestigious than others and we shouldn't kid ourselves otherwise. Yes, trophy success of any kind is welcome, but to maintain our reputation going forward, we need to be challenging for league titles and European cups.

And we will be soon.

And we will be soon.

I hope and expect as much also because the path to greater gory lies in the league.

Top 4 is a minimum requirement whether we like it to be or not for financial stability, player recruitment and worldwide brand recognition.

The team that won the carling cup last year are now in the championship. It was our reserves tester when we had CL and europa will be next year for us aswell.

The League Cup was won in 2 of the 5 years we won the European Cup, and we got to the final in 2 of the other years. The year we won the double, Jan Molby beat the mancs on his own, while I was distraught when Jim put the ball in his own net to lose us the semi-final. The next year, Jim broke his leg at the neighbours, and Rushie scored a last-gasp winner. The following year, Aldo scored a last minute winner to beat Arsenal after a third replay.

I have some fabulous memories from the League Cup down the years, and regardless of our status in the game, I want us to go out and win it every year. I am happy Kenny agrees with me. The UEFA Cup is also a wonderful trophy to win that we have won 3 times, and I'll want to win it next year too.

What do I remember of finishing 4th? Houllier getting the sack. That's about it.

Right now, of course, it would be.........

No it wouldnt nor will it ever be.

Shame on the generation of Liverpool fans who see 4th as a good season.

Read it again and then pause and think...LIVERPOOL 4TH. Acceptable ha ha is it balls

Top 4 is a minimum requirement whether we like it to be or not for financial stability, player recruitment and worldwide brand recognition.

Worldwide brand recognition? Sounds like the sort of thing our american owners would come out with. I agree on the finishing 4th bit being a general minimum requirement but I'm pretty confident the LFC brand does not rely on it to be recognised worldwide.

Top 4 is a minimum requirement whether we like it to be or not for financial stability, player recruitment and worldwide brand recognition.

How does that work? Everton finished 4th in 2005, i don't think it did them any favors do you? No "worldwide brand recognization" for them. There 4th spot hardly helped them bring in any world class players or even good players. We as a football club don't need champions league football to appeal to players but what we do need is signs of progress and a cup double would be perfect.

The club is bound to be more attractive to potential new players if we've a shot at playing CL football than if it doesn't. You can obviously still sign some top players even if you aren't in it as Suarez/Enrique bear out, but it does strengthen our hand considerably. There's also the money you get for qualifying and progressing into the latter stages.

As for 'worldwide brand recognition', obviously that's an added benefit of playing in the CL; but only if we can monetise that brand awareness. That's one of the key commercial challenges we face, along with the other major clubs in Europe. Like them, LFC is as well known globally as some of the biggest corporations in the world, yet brings in a minute fraction of the revenue by comprison. Unfortunately if you're a bitter, none of these benefits really apply to small clubs.

Well we did in 2004/05. We also won the European Cup that year - was that season unacceptable?

Well the sentence that precedes the one I've quoted suggests you're not as happy as some. In fact in the very sentence before you claim you're unhappy with what we've achieved.

Furthermore, the League Cup isn't a second rate competition and anybody who thinks it is needs to sort themselves out. The League Cup is the only competition in England to be won four years on the trot by the same club. Do you know who did that? We did between 81 and 84. The League Cup is the only competition to of been involved in both of our trebles - 84 and 2001. The League Cup is the only piece of silverware to of been won this season - we won it. Our first trophy in six years, that's more important than any poxy F***ing fourth place finish or are you one these jolly come latelys who is only interested in Champions League football and everything else can go hang? One of those who isn't arsed if we come first, second, third or fourth just as long as we get in the Champions League. The type of fan that doesn't understand this club.

What's unacceptable for Liverpool Football Club is coming second. That's why we're the most successful club in English football because we don't accept second best. We didn't accept second best from the outset in the League Cup and won it for a record eighth time. Kenny won't be accepting second best.

All this bollocks of "we could finish as low as..." well so F***ing what. We could finish first. The likelihood is we're not going to but we could. You wanna talk about where we could end up, how about you put your F***ing arse in gear and realise we could finish higher than where we are rather than coming out with yet another doom and gloom thread about how fu**ed up we are.

Fucks sake I was brought up with the belief that when Liverpool find themselves hard up on the pitch, those off are more united as one than ever. They sing louder and prouder. They believe and inspire more than ever. But nah not anymore. That's not the message being put into the next generation of fan. Nah, the next generation fan is being fed the belief that when times are hard you just sit and sulk. You just sit there and think you've got a god given right to be handed things. And when things go wrong, blame some other f**ker.

Christ, I love this club as much as anybody. But there's too many Liverpool "fans" who I F***ing dispise. Somebody was talking the other day about me believing I'm a better fan than others. And I said well there are some who aren't "true" fans. This just goes to F***ing prove it. Winning trophies isn't enough anymore, not even for the possibly the greatest player, possibly the greatest manager and possibly the greatest human being ever to grace the turf of Anfield.

What's unacceptable? What's unacceptable is we've just won our first trophy in six years and we're still trying to find ways to get rid of Kenny Dalglish as our manager. That's unacceptable.

F**k it, I'm outta here. Can't bare soft cu*ts without a clue anymore. Need to go to kip before I launch this laptop in the direction of a wall.

Spot on DLS.

The English dictionary defines the word 'unacceptable' as 'not satisfactory'.

As far as I'm concerned anything other than 1st or when we fail to win a competition we enter then that is not satisfactory.

It seems some of you however have let your standards slip and consider qualification for a CL playoff game is now the definition of acceptability.  Shame on you.

Pretty much sums it up for me.

My apologise for copying the wrong phase. My iPad quoted the title of the article instead. But my point still stands, that John Henry stated that 4th was our target, before the season even started.

The owners might have had a target of 4th place financial reasons but Kenny and the players would have started the season aiming to win every game.

I'd like to think any professional footballer, especially one representing our club, would at the very least think winning every competition we enter is at least a possibility.

4th this season is hard but with the amount of money we spent we should be finishing no lower than 5th any lower and it's a bad season

Winning the Carling Cup was great. However, the Carling Cup is only the Carling Cup (aka the Mickey Mouse Cup!). I think a reality check is needed in terms of how far we have to go. In the days when we were winning the League Cup (Milk Cup etc) for fun, it was a sideshow to the more important tasks of European glory,the FA Cup and of course the League. Winning the Carling Cup is great only if it brings momentum to our domestic campaign: which it certainly has not!I can't say I'm looking forward to Thursday night football next season (I suppose at least I can get me lad cheap tickets in the group stages!), which is why I prefer finishing 4th spot to winning CC. Currently we are off the pace that Rafa set before he was sacked! KK needs another full season before we judge him properly. I'm as desperate to see him succeed as anyone. The league is the priority; the CC was a great day out, but its only the CC!!

4th this season is hard but with the amount of money we spent we should be finishing no lower than 5th any lower and it's a bad season

Even if we complete a cup double?

Winning the Carling Cup was great. However, the Carling Cup is only the Carling Cup (aka the Mickey Mouse Cup!). I think a reality check is needed in terms of how far we have to go. In the days when we were winning the League Cup (Milk Cup etc) for fun, it was a sideshow to the more important tasks of European glory,the FA Cup and of course the League. Winning the Carling Cup is great only if it brings momentum to our domestic campaign: which it certainly has not!I can't say I'm looking forward to Thursday night football next season (I suppose at least I can get me lad cheap tickets in the group stages!), which is why I prefer finishing 4th spot to winning CC. Currently we are off the pace that Rafa set before he was sacked! KK needs another full season before we judge him properly. I'm as desperate to see him succeed as anyone. The league is the priority; the CC was a great day out, but its only the CC!!

I see what your saying but it's all relative surely? The importance of the League Cup tends to rise or fall for the big clubs based on how they have been performing in other competitions. If your winning championships and European competitions then it tends to take a bit of a back seat but if you haven't won a trophy for 6 years then it's importance and prestige is magnified somewhat. When Evans Liverpool side won the trophy in 95 it was celebrated then in much the same way as this one has been. 

Scottbot completely agree with you about it being relative. But when we won in 95 it was only 5 years since we won the league. It's a bit longer now! I don't think all the bollocks about us not being at Wembley for 16yrs helped with perspective though. Most so-called neutrals conveniently forgot we had done the Millenium Stadium a few times! I'm not advocating any sort of knee jerk reaction just that we maintain persepective which ensures that priorities (the League) are not distracted by anything else!

I see what your saying but it's all relative surely? The importance of the League Cup tends to rise or fall for the big clubs based on how they have been performing in other competitions. If your winning championships and European competitions then it tends to take a bit of a back seat but if you haven't won a trophy for 6 years then it's importance and prestige is magnified somewhat. When Evans Liverpool side won the trophy in 95 it was celebrated then in much the same way as this one has been.

That's a great point about the Carling Cup and what it means to different clubs at different times. For me personally, the recent win at Wembley meant a little bit more than the four consecutive wins in 81-84, even though I went to two of them and didn't go this year. It meant more to me because we are not as successful now as we were back then.

Even if we complete a cup double?

Yes even IF we complete a cup double, remember a few years ago playing Juventus, Barcelona, AC Milan, ect playing Stoke at home or even Cardiff ain't the same, not so speak of the prize money, or the attraction for the better players

That's a great point about the Carling Cup and what it means to different clubs at different times. For me personally, the recent win at Wembley meant a little bit more than the four consecutive wins in 81-84, even though I went to two of them and didn't go this year. It meant more to me because we are not as successful now as we were back then.

Yeah it's quite a funny competition in that respect. I mean think back to 2005 when we lost the final to Chelsea. It was heartbreaking to lose the final, particularly the way it happened but I can barely remember the run to that final (think I remember our ressies beating Spurs on pens). It didn't seem particularly important, we were having a stinker in the league, struggling in Europe and obviously we'd won the competition 2 years earlier under Ged and I doubt it would have got that much fanfare had we won that day.

Yes even IF we complete a cup double, remember a few years ago playing Juventus, Barcelona, AC Milan, ect playing Stoke at home or even Cardiff ain't the same, not so speak of the prize money, or the attraction for the better players

I see your point but disagree a cup double for me is far more rewarding then a 4th or 5th place finish.

Yeah it's quite a funny competition in that respect. I mean think back to 2005 when we lost the final to Chelsea. It was heartbreaking to lose the final, particularly the way it happened but I can barely remember the run to that final (think I remember our ressies beating Spurs on pens). It didn't seem particularly important, we were having a stinker in the league, struggling in Europe and obviously we'd won the competition 2 years earlier under Ged and I doubt it would have got that much fanfare had we won that day.

I cannot remember the run to the final, either. At the time we were reaching the business end of the Champions League which was occupying our thoughts. We had already played in 3 finals in Cardiff too. This time, this year, it was different because we were back at Wembley for the first time in 16 long years.

the path to greater gory lies in the league.

It certainly has been gory. 

This was always going to be a tough season simply by the amount of new players around, next season will be judgement time for Kenny and besides apart from the last 10 games we had done OK and we should have been much further along than we are at present, we have had dumb luck in an awful lot of games and if has it's said it evens itself out why have we not got at least a top four place because some of our play this season has been really good and lets not forget we have only had one window to put right all the damage and underfunding caused by H&G dam their names, one year in to a new team is not long so lets back Kenny and not keep giving him stick for what he is trying to do, he can be stiff necked now and then but we are not privy to the inner working going on behind the scene so for now I will give my backing and see where we are in about a year from now, we may have more of an idea then of where we are going.

We have to take 19 points from a possible 33 remaining just to equal last season points total.

2010/2011 - (6th) P38 W17 D7 L14 F59 A44 Pts58

Things need to turn and quickly but theres no better game than tomorrow against the Blueshite. Yes the cup win was great but for me we must improve on last seasons league record otherwise we are not progressing. Overall, its been disappointing and to be honest, I think we'll finish in the same posistion as last season but if we finish with an improved points tally and at least one cup win that will count as progress for me.

So much sh*te flying around this forum and generally at the moment so lets back the manager and players (although some of them need a good kick up the arse) and as Kenny says, count up our points at the end of the season and see where we are.

6th or below.

Nothing surprises me on here anymore.
I've come to realise that the current Liverpool fan base is not the same as the one I was brought up by.
And like most things in football, I prefer the past much more to the modern.