If Carroll wasn't 35m

Im going to say it straight out. If Carroll was bought for 10m a year ago most of you will not be saying sell him. He is one for the future. Not many people have said sell Jordan Henderson because he is a bright prospect and wasnt a complete waste of money. So why isnt Andy Carroll and why are people asking him to be sold when he hasnt done anything that wrong. Im not saying Carroll has played well this year but you look at his stats from last year and he did quite a bit and he is only young.

So forget about his 35m price tag thats long gone.

I'm not sure that's the case mate.

I think there are some who would sell Carroll this summer even if we bought him for £10M as you say.

The price tag doesn't bother me too much either way but I would give Andy a bit more time as I do feel there is a better player there than he has shown for the majority of his Liverpool career and I also think that be it with us or some one else he will turn out a really good centre forward.

I said a few months back when nothing seemed to be going right for him that possibly Andy and Liverpool was just never going to work out and that may well still be the case but for a few weeks around the League Cup Final he was in a very good run if form but for whatever reason is out if the side again.

Im going to say it straight out. If Carroll was bought for 10m a year ago most of you will not be saying sell him. He is one for the future. Not many people have said sell Jordan Henderson because he is a bright prospect and wasnt a complete waste of money. So why isnt Andy Carroll and why are people asking him to be sold when he hasnt done anything that wrong. Im not saying Carroll has played well this year but you look at his stats from last year and he did quite a bit and he is only young.

So forget about his 35m price tag thats long gone.

You been back to Newcastle much these days, Andy?

Better put your tin helmet on mate, a tirade of abuse is incoming with this one.

Sure I can hear Corbally sharpening his knives in the distance.. 

I would honestly look to loan him out in the summer

Best case scenario if we sell him is a £25M hit. Plus a Villa or Fulham aint going to pay him what we are so a chunk of that £10M would be used to pay him off
Loan him out to a suitable PL club (one that will play a similar style to us but not Newcastle as if he is ever to do anything for Liverpool he needs to detach himself from home comforts)
Best case scenario he finds himself and comes back in 2013 raring to go looking a new player. 2nd best case scenario he does well, boosts his value but there is no room for him at Lpool so we get a good fee for him
The worst case scenario doing that isn't really too far from where we are just now

Better put your tin helmet on mate, a tirade of abuse is incoming with this one.

Sure I can hear Corbally sharpening his knives in the distance.. 

Jib the tin hat kid I'd get some kevlar.

Whether we bought him for 5 mil or 35 mil the minimum requirement is 100% effort and far too often when picked he hasn't given us that.

He's not alone though.

Sorry Big Andy but I totally disagree, the only difference would be we'd be saying at least we can get our money back. The fact that Andy Carroll cost £35m does not alter my opinion of him as a footballer, it only reflects the value we got, as a footballer I think he is extremely poor at many aspects of the game and I believe his injury must have something to do with his confidence to attack the ball, coupled to the nasty injury his sustained early on playing for us where he hyper-extended his knee because his presence in the box is not what you would expect of a man of his stature.

His hold up play is reasonable, but often his first touch lets him down if we're attacking at any pace, slow hold up play is not something you search for in a target man, we already had someone better than him in Ngog at that. His crossing has actually been the only thing I've been impressed with, but of course we don't want him doing that in any case. Dribbling skill is virtually none existant, in fact I can name the only time that I saw him actually beat a man with a nice turn and flick past, so once in a season does not constitute dribbling skill.

His interplay with players around him is not strong enough and his awareness of when a cross is going to be put into the box is alarming, the amount of times he's jogging into the box while the ball is sailing accross when he could of sprinted earlier and been in position is honestly his biggest flaw and something that if he doesn't grasp now I doubt he ever will as it's a basic of the game.

So my honest opinion would be to definitely sell if we bought him for £10m rather than my current opinion of possibly hold on to him if we can't get more than £15m just because I can see him develop into a player someone else will take a chance on, so the price tag might be the only thing that actually keeps him at the club because I doubt we can afford to take any more than a £20m (£13 adjusted for the books) loss on a single player.

I don't think the problem is solely down to Andy, I just don't think that Suarez and Andy's game complements each other. I think Suarez was bought to complement a fast mobile striker ...... Torres, and that Andy and Suarez are both handicapped by a lack of pace when played together.

I think both players would benefit by the addition of a fast clinical striker playing alongside them, rather than trying to adapt to each others game. I think if we bring in such a striker Andy may get pushed back to being a "plan B" initially, but as he grows in experience hopefully will become more of a genuine alternative to Suarez with the new fast striker.

He needs to get off his heels, anticipate better, make runs off the centreback and try to stay central rather than drifting into the wide areas, but for me without the right strike partner we will never see the best of him.

Certainly ignoring the fee, Andy would still hardly be considered a success on his showings so far, but he is young and has time to gain the experience that a target man needs. A fast prolific striker would make it much easier for him during this time while relieving some of the pressure on him to score. 

   

 

Im just saying that if Carroll was bought for 10m, many people will be saying keep as a sub and hope he gets better overtime as he is very young. But since he has a price tag on his head being 35m, people want to sell him which i see no point in because the amount of money we would get in return would be very low.

I see no point bringing in a player for the future and selling him before the future arrives. people are just getting swept up in the fu**ed up go go lifestyle and they want us to be some kind of chelsea esque nothing club that brings players in and out like a FIFA manager mode. get off the F***ing clubs back!!

Carroll is simply too limited to be anything but a squad player for a top 4 team IMO. He thrives on a direct game, a lot of high balls into him and he can win his fair percentage of them and get stuck in. But if he's in a more passing, technical team he has neither the pace nor the technical skills to thrive in a team like that.

Therefore IMO Carroll is not good enough for a top 4 team whether he cost £10m or £35m.  The fact we paid £35m simply means we pissed millions down the toilet. We're not the first big club to do it, and won't be the last.

I will say though, that he hasn't been given a real chance by Kenny because he hasn't started game after game in a row like Suarez. If Kenny sanctioned a £35m move for him then he should at least give the lad a lot of starts in a row to sink or swim. The way he plays him and then drops him for a few games is senseless.

Carroll, Henderson and Downing: the trident of fear. Unfortunately they strike fear into our investors and fans.

For the 70 million we spunked on them we could have bought 10 Lucas Leiva's. Now 3 of them would have worked out brilliantly at only a 30% success rate. THe wage bill probably would have been the same. We can't afford to waste that cash even if we did get the money as profit from Torres. sale. Seriously we should invest everything into recruiting players out of Barca's La Masia why they are still about 14. Give them a heap of cash and they will come. I would rather see a 14 year old La Masia prospect driving around with their Parents in an LFC funded Maserati thank Downing, Carroll, Henderson, Poulsen, etc etc. I love the way the press lambasted Rafa for his spends and yet The Qwl and Kenny get off relatively unscathed. Commolli should be made to watch tapes of these players who spend more time worrying about their hairdo and boot color than how to slip Suarez in on goal.

Carrol and Dwoning are not the future for many reasons. Hendo can become a good allround player in my view because I think he will do whatever it takes to get there.

It's not anybody fault Carroll cost £35m. He scored 11 goals for half season before joining us.
If we keep on keeping him on the bench he wouldn't get the chance to prove. 10 minutes playing time is big different to 90 minutes.
Why leaving him on the bench after digged out £35m?
Please look at the stats, when he start, we got good result.

I think the reason why people are so ready to ship him out is because if we cud raise anywhere near that 35mil price tag and reinvest it we cud likely spend it more wisely and improve further. We all accept we over paid for a number of reasons but we have nothing to gain and everything to lose by letting go now as wed get nowhere near that money for him

If he was bought for ten million id still think we over payed looking at his performances.  I actually think its one of Kennys biggest decisions this summer whether to take the loss and sell. I personally hope we sell so we can move on from this mess of a transfer.

From Paul Tomkins.

Andy Carroll

As noted by people on Twitter, Liverpool’s results in the last seven Carroll starts (after Bolton): WWDWDWW; but the last seven without Carroll starting (after Oldham): DDLLLLL. That’s quite some contrast.

TTT’s senior data analyst Dan Kennett posted some great stats on the eve of the Wigan game in the site’s comments section (which is worth the subscription fee on its own!).

(Even yesterday’s game, though not included, saw Liverpool do better with him on the pitch – ‘drawing’ 1-1 – than the 1-0 ‘defeat’ of the first half.)

    Liverpool (All Comps): P40 Win%=50, Points Per Game = 1.78

    Carroll starts: P22 W13 D5 L4, Win%=59, Points Per Game = 2.00
    Carroll doesn’t start: P18 W7 D6 L5, Win%=39, Points Per Game = 1.50

    In terms of ‘difficulty’:

    Carroll starts vs Teams higher in PL than Liverpool (All Comps v Arsenal, Chelsea, City, United, Newcastle, Spurs)
    P8 W5 D1 L2, Win%=63, Points Per Game = 2.00

    Carroll starts vs “the rest”
    P14 W8 D4 L2, Win%=57, Points Per Game = 2.00

    No Carroll start vs Teams higher
    P6 W1 D3 L2, Win%=17, Points Per Game = 1.00

    No Carroll start vs “the rest”
    P12 W6 D3 L3, Win%=50, Points Per Game = 1.75

    I think this is fascinating. Not only are the team’s results significantly better when Carroll plays, but the results with Carroll are exactly the same (2 points per game), whether versus “hard” or “easy” teams!

(Dan has subsequently worked out these stats across Carroll’s entire time at Liverpool and posted them in the site’s debate section, and they remain impressive.)

While Liverpool’s game can be less easy on the eye with Carroll in the side,  and the goals have not flowed for the no.9 as hoped, he’s certainly playing better of late; at least he was, until he started being left out.

There are too many other factors to prove conclusively that playing Carroll will lead to better results, but it’s better to have non-scoring strikers who help win games (through other contributions) than to have someone banging in a goal a game in 2-1 defeats. Either way, it’s food for thought.

Here is one time blood i dont agree with Tomkins. Im starting to have serious doubts Carroll is good enough for the premiership never mind Liverpool.  Tomkins has being trying to back up his target man argument about Carroll as often as he can.

I think this is fascinating. Not only are the team’s results significantly better when Carroll plays, but the results with Carroll are exactly the same (2 points per game), whether versus “hard” or “easy” teams!

I don't think it is necessarily the 'Carroll factor'.  I think it's the fact that when he plays we tend to play 2 up front.

Tomkins article was good but it also had several flaws such as 'it was our first bad home performance'.  That was wrong - Swansea was awful.

Agree all this shows is Suarez plays better with a two. A lot of talk is suggesting Suarez is better as a second striker and was rarely leading the line playing with ajax. I think Kenny playing him as a lone striker is a mistake. Kenny needs to target a quick striker in the summer with good movement

Agree all this shows is Suarez plays better with a two. A lot of talk is suggesting Suarez is better as a second striker and was rarely leading the line playing with ajax. I think Kenny playing him as a lone striker is a mistake. Kenny needs to target a quick striker in the summer with good movement

Both Carroll and Suarez need someone up front with them. Suarez is too little and not quick enough being alone and Carroll gets dommed in the air by himself. Players like Torres, Drogbra can play by themselves.

Agree all this shows is Suarez plays better with a two. A lot of talk is suggesting Suarez is better as a second striker and was rarely leading the line playing with ajax. I think Kenny playing him as a lone striker is a mistake. Kenny needs to target a quick striker in the summer with good movement

Cavani - his strike partner for Uruguay

Cavani - his strike partner for Uruguay

Never will happen Kb that guy is immense.
I reckon we could snag David Villa if we are really suttle about it. Cant see him being a part of Barcas squad anymore.

In all honesty the price tag dont bother me if it was five mill or 35 mill the minimum requirement is hard work and effort and on that front i think he has failed miserably ,granted he has improved a bit recently ,but he will never be mobile or strong enough to carry the line in a league winning team, 

All we hear is that the crosses into the box are not good enough well i would like someone to show me Andy busting a gut to get on the end of one because i havn,t seen it, Downing has not set the place alight but just recently has put a fair few good crosses into the box not one has been met by the head of carroll he just cant stand there and hope it lands on his head he has to bust a gut and he is not ,at the moment there is more movement in the statue of liberty.

I don't think it is necessarily the 'Carroll factor'.  I think it's the fact that when he plays we tend to play 2 up front.

I think what it shows at the minute JD is we pick up more points with Carroll in the starting XI whether that be because were playing two up top or not, it certainly gives food for thought.

I'm not Carroll's biggest fan and I don't think I ever will be but if his inclusion in the starting XI even if it is playing two up top leads to a better points return for Liverpool FC then it gives the impression that we'd be probably be better off playing that way until the end of the season.

I would sell him...not because i think he's a bad player but we will never play to his strengths, well it doesn't look like it anyway.

He's a ball in the box guy, and we are playing a ground game, he struggles to fit into that.

Its the 100% effort as mentioned by What A Hit Son.

Just watch him when we break.  Too many times Ive seen him "cant be arsed".

Get that commitment going.....could be different.

Either Kenny sees something we cant or
Hes too proud to admit we kneejerked on Torres leaving.

Time will tell.

Im not a Carroll fan.

Its the 100% effort as mentioned by What A Hit Son.

Just watch him when we break.  Too many times Ive seen him "cant be arsed".

Get that commitment going.....could be different.

Either Kenny sees something we cant or
Hes too proud to admit we kneejerked on Torres leaving.

Time will tell.

Im not a Carroll fan.

I think it's more a case of we have what we have right now.. Kenny won't be afraid to move him on or bring in another if that's what's required.

Kenny obviously doesn't trust him.  Rightly or wrongly

Kenny obviously doesn't trust him.  Rightly or wrongly

Not obvious at all..

Did he not trust him in the cup final? Or against Utd or Stoke in the cup runs?

If Kenny trusted him he would have played as much as Adam and Henderson bearing in mind we are one of the lowest scorers in the division

The moeny we paid was mad but sh*t happens we where desperate. I feel really sorry for andy sometimes,just when he was starting to play well he gets dropped. When himself gerrard and suarez play together we are a much more dangerous side it gives us two options instead of one with suarez which is usually found out after twenty minutes and we have no other way of breaking teams down. Even if Andy is playing sh*t on the ball he takes defenders out of the game and gives suarez space to work in,now you could argue anyone could do that but i think defenders are genuinely scared of him and alot of the time teams double up on him which creates lots of space and i always think we are going to win with him in the team

I've tried to get excited with Andy so many times during the past year just to disappoint myself and get back to reality, time and time again. His signing was a big mistake, the fee is not his fault but it obviously plays a huge part on the expectations a player will attract and the pressure he'll have to cope with, and that's something that has worried me since 31 January 2011 and something we should have taken into consideration.

However, I can't see anyone making not even a decent offer for him, so I'm not sure if selling him would be the best decision right now. He doesn't seem to make much impact when coming from the bench at all, but I'd be inclined to use him as a squad option next season, provided we sign at least one new striker which I'm desperately hoping we will.

Showing stats is all god and well, but lets be honest, they are all bollox. We may or may not have done better when Andy was on the pitch, but it has no bearing on how he actually played....someone show me some stats to prove to me he isn't a donkey, maybe then I will have a change of heart.

I do feel sorry for Andy, it isn't his fault we got robbed, blame KK or Camolli, blame anyone you like but not Andy. I am sure he is trying his balls off every day in training, and you cant ask for more than that and hopefully he will improve. The fact is, he is a Liverpool player and as such I hope I am here next season, when he's banged 20 goals in, and you lot are all telling me how wrong I was.

The price we paid DOES have a bearing on the whole discussion and you cant just ignore the fact we paid the price of a world class player and didn't get one.

Showing stats is all god and well, but lets be honest, they are all bollox. We may or may not have done better when Andy was on the pitch, but it has no bearing on how he actually played.....

True but say a player plays poorly or looks to be playing bad yet we win the vast majority of games the player plays in.

Is it a problem that that one player is playing bad yet we are still winning games?

I'm not saying this is definitely the case with Carroll but I'd take a team winning with one player playing badly every fay if the week over a player scoring goals for fun yet we win less or lose more games.

True but say a player plays poorly or looks to be playing bad yet we win the vast majority of games the player plays in.

Is it a problem that that one player is playing bad yet we are still winning games?

I'm not saying this is definitely the case with Carroll but I'd take a team winning with one player playing badly every fay if the week over a player scoring goals for fun yet we win less or lose more games.

As you can see, from my point of view stats mean nothing...there's 22 players on the pitch, they all have a part to play and they all have good and bad days, but I am not convinced we are a better team with Andy playing.

but I am not convinced we are a better team with Andy playing.

But the stats suggest we are a winning team when he plays 

I think we are a better team when we move the ball quicker and have quicker movement up front. I think we are getting results with Andy for the following reasons: If Andy plays or doesn't play we are still not scoring a lot, however when he plays we hit longer balls and so are not no easily caught on the counter and we are also better at defending set pieces. WHatever the case we are not as fragile with him but this is not necessarily the way forward. I am a pragmatist. If Andy plays well he deserves his spot, however this also must mean that we have decided on using a strategy that requires a player like Andy. I would be happy for Andy to be in our squad but I am more likely to opt for the Maxi, Kuyt, Suarez approach on most occasions.

Fact is every other team and his dog would have been in for Andy after his season with newcastle if he was allowed to leave for 10 or 15mil and that includes man u, city and chavs

. I am sure he is trying his balls off every day in training, and you cant ask for more than that and hopefully he will improve.

Well if he is in training perhaps he should try it in game time ,because there have been times when he is wandering around like a blind man in a blizzard.

Well if he is in training perhaps he should try it in game time ,because there have been times when he is wandering around like a blind man in a blizzard.

I also believe in an interview Bellamy mentioned that he is the laziest in training. I can quiet believe it cos it transcends on to the pitch also.
Part of the problem is our style of play and he doesn't fit our play at all. I think there was an element of desperation at the time due to Torres landing us in it. There was plenty of hype at the time so it probably seemed like the obvious quick choice that also fitted into the young English talent policy.
Problem is if he is not willing to make any effort to adapt then he quiet simply doesn't fit here. Unless that manager tries to change our style to fit him but I think this is pretty unlikely to be honest.
I don't buy the excuse that sales mean it doesn't matter how much he spent as this should not mean that money can just be wasted as we are gradually reducing funds needlessly. That said I think lessons may well have been learned here, if not, maybe calls will be justified but i think we could use more clarity on what kind of say Camolli has on things like this. Whilst I know KD says that he ok's who they go for etc I also remember how nice a guy he is and how he shows respect for owners and seniors at the club etc and as such I couldn't see him challenging things too much but who knows.
Id love him to come good just to shut people up but I cant see it. I could with Crouch etc cos they were doing things right bar getting the goals but with Carroll I just cant see it, he's too lazy most of the time and only has the odd little spell of having a go.
I don't care too much who there name is or where they are from as long as they give their all and play well.

Said for a long time that he looks unfit and for the length of time he's been with us that's pretty embarressing, some at the time didn't agree. I still think he doesn't sprint at all on the pitch and therefore looks unfit and lazy often, not surprising therefore that Kenny drops him so often due to lack of effort.

The most effort I see from Andy is when he's shouting at the ref, when he looks most comfortable to be honest.

I dont think the lad is at fault most times, we just dont play the system that suits his strengths, if we feed him more balls whilst he is in the box then he could offer the threat for the very purpose we bought him, but dealing with long balls as a target man who is almost at times just past his own half way line with no support isolates him totally.

A good run of games would do his confidence wonders.

I wouls like to see him in a system of  4-2-3-1.

                        Reina

kelly        Agger      Skrtl      Enrique

          Lucas               Gerrard

Johnson         Suarez          Bellamy

                       Carroll

From Paul Tomkins.

Andy Carroll

As noted by people on Twitter, Liverpool’s results in the last seven Carroll starts (after Bolton): WWDWDWW; but the last seven without Carroll starting (after Oldham): DDLLLLL. That’s quite some contrast.

TTT’s senior data analyst Dan Kennett posted some great stats on the eve of the Wigan game in the site’s comments section (which is worth the subscription fee on its own!).

(Even yesterday’s game, though not included, saw Liverpool do better with him on the pitch – ‘drawing’ 1-1 – than the 1-0 ‘defeat’ of the first half.)

    Liverpool (All Comps): P40 Win%=50, Points Per Game = 1.78

    Carroll starts: P22 W13 D5 L4, Win%=59, Points Per Game = 2.00
    Carroll doesn’t start: P18 W7 D6 L5, Win%=39, Points Per Game = 1.50

    In terms of ‘difficulty’:

    Carroll starts vs Teams higher in PL than Liverpool (All Comps v Arsenal, Chelsea, City, United, Newcastle, Spurs)
    P8 W5 D1 L2, Win%=63, Points Per Game = 2.00

    Carroll starts vs “the rest”
    P14 W8 D4 L2, Win%=57, Points Per Game = 2.00

    No Carroll start vs Teams higher
    P6 W1 D3 L2, Win%=17, Points Per Game = 1.00

    No Carroll start vs “the rest”
    P12 W6 D3 L3, Win%=50, Points Per Game = 1.75

    I think this is fascinating. Not only are the team’s results significantly better when Carroll plays, but the results with Carroll are exactly the same (2 points per game), whether versus “hard” or “easy” teams!

(Dan has subsequently worked out these stats across Carroll’s entire time at Liverpool and posted them in the site’s debate section, and they remain impressive.)

While Liverpool’s game can be less easy on the eye with Carroll in the side,  and the goals have not flowed for the no.9 as hoped, he’s certainly playing better of late; at least he was, until he started being left out.

There are too many other factors to prove conclusively that playing Carroll will lead to better results, but it’s better to have non-scoring strikers who help win games (through other contributions) than to have someone banging in a goal a game in 2-1 defeats. Either way, it’s food for thought.

I don't think it necessarily points to us playing better because of Carroll.
I think what it does show is that Suarez is not a main striker and he performs better as a second striker.
The stats back up what we all know. We need a main striker in the summer. One that can play up front.

So the real question is how do we best utilise Suarez.
A striker and winger being our priority because this season has shown that Carroll and Downing are not
the answer we were looking for.

I dont think the lad is at fault most times, we just dont play the system that suits his strengths, if we feed him more balls whilst he is in the box then he could offer the threat for the very purpose we bought him, but dealing with long balls as a target man who is almost at times just past his own half way line with no support isolates him totally.

A good run of games would do his confidence wonders.

I wouls like to see him in a system of  4-2-3-1.

                        Reina

kelly        Agger      Skrtl      Enrique

          Lucas               Gerrard

Johnson         Suarez          Bellamy

                       Carroll

The problem with that team is half of it is injured so what do you do then ,there has been times this year watching him play when i have just thought run you lazy c**t but he dosen,t ,and as has been said to death the minimum requirement is that he busts his balls out on the pitch and i just havn,t seen him do it ,sure he has had the odd good spell but that ain,t good enough at this club .

as long as the tag is on him, he cannot perform well!

I think there are a lot of things Andy does that go unnoticed (or undervalued) by supporters. Just by his presence he creates a problem for the opposing team's defenders, not to mention the number of knockdowns I've seen him win this year...just because someone isn't on the other end of them doesn't mean they won't at some point pay dividends. I think you can argue whether he's worth 35m all day and make good arguments either way, but the final score doesn't lie, and if he's helping us win games even without scoring a lot of goals then I say put him in the starting XI.

The problem with that team is half of it is injured so what do you do then ,there has been times this year watching him play when i have just thought run you lazy c**t but he dosen,t ,and as has been said to death the minimum requirement is that he busts his balls out on the pitch and i just havn,t seen him do it ,sure he has had the odd good spell but that ain,t good enough at this club .

All too often this season he hasn't ran into the penalty area when there has been an attack. He loiters on the edge. I can't believe that Kenny hasn't picked up on this and asked him to continue the run into the area in the hope that he may get on the end of something. This is basic stuff he should be doing.

Carroll has been here for best part of 15 month and in that time the only game i can honestly say Carroll had a decent game was against City at home last season, for the money spent he is quite plain shocking. Someone has made an almighty cock up.