If Carroll wasn't 35m

I don't think it is necessarily the 'Carroll factor'.  I think it's the fact that when he plays we tend to play 2 up front.

I think what it shows at the minute JD is we pick up more points with Carroll in the starting XI whether that be because were playing two up top or not, it certainly gives food for thought.

I'm not Carroll's biggest fan and I don't think I ever will be but if his inclusion in the starting XI even if it is playing two up top leads to a better points return for Liverpool FC then it gives the impression that we'd be probably be better off playing that way until the end of the season.

I would sell him...not because i think he's a bad player but we will never play to his strengths, well it doesn't look like it anyway.

He's a ball in the box guy, and we are playing a ground game, he struggles to fit into that.

Its the 100% effort as mentioned by What A Hit Son.

Just watch him when we break.  Too many times Ive seen him "cant be arsed".

Get that commitment going.....could be different.

Either Kenny sees something we cant or
Hes too proud to admit we kneejerked on Torres leaving.

Time will tell.

Im not a Carroll fan.

Its the 100% effort as mentioned by What A Hit Son.

Just watch him when we break.  Too many times Ive seen him "cant be arsed".

Get that commitment going.....could be different.

Either Kenny sees something we cant or
Hes too proud to admit we kneejerked on Torres leaving.

Time will tell.

Im not a Carroll fan.

I think it's more a case of we have what we have right now.. Kenny won't be afraid to move him on or bring in another if that's what's required.

Kenny obviously doesn't trust him.  Rightly or wrongly

Kenny obviously doesn't trust him.  Rightly or wrongly

Not obvious at all..

Did he not trust him in the cup final? Or against Utd or Stoke in the cup runs?

If Kenny trusted him he would have played as much as Adam and Henderson bearing in mind we are one of the lowest scorers in the division

The moeny we paid was mad but sh*t happens we where desperate. I feel really sorry for andy sometimes,just when he was starting to play well he gets dropped. When himself gerrard and suarez play together we are a much more dangerous side it gives us two options instead of one with suarez which is usually found out after twenty minutes and we have no other way of breaking teams down. Even if Andy is playing sh*t on the ball he takes defenders out of the game and gives suarez space to work in,now you could argue anyone could do that but i think defenders are genuinely scared of him and alot of the time teams double up on him which creates lots of space and i always think we are going to win with him in the team

I've tried to get excited with Andy so many times during the past year just to disappoint myself and get back to reality, time and time again. His signing was a big mistake, the fee is not his fault but it obviously plays a huge part on the expectations a player will attract and the pressure he'll have to cope with, and that's something that has worried me since 31 January 2011 and something we should have taken into consideration.

However, I can't see anyone making not even a decent offer for him, so I'm not sure if selling him would be the best decision right now. He doesn't seem to make much impact when coming from the bench at all, but I'd be inclined to use him as a squad option next season, provided we sign at least one new striker which I'm desperately hoping we will.

Showing stats is all god and well, but lets be honest, they are all bollox. We may or may not have done better when Andy was on the pitch, but it has no bearing on how he actually played....someone show me some stats to prove to me he isn't a donkey, maybe then I will have a change of heart.

I do feel sorry for Andy, it isn't his fault we got robbed, blame KK or Camolli, blame anyone you like but not Andy. I am sure he is trying his balls off every day in training, and you cant ask for more than that and hopefully he will improve. The fact is, he is a Liverpool player and as such I hope I am here next season, when he's banged 20 goals in, and you lot are all telling me how wrong I was.

The price we paid DOES have a bearing on the whole discussion and you cant just ignore the fact we paid the price of a world class player and didn't get one.

Showing stats is all god and well, but lets be honest, they are all bollox. We may or may not have done better when Andy was on the pitch, but it has no bearing on how he actually played.....

True but say a player plays poorly or looks to be playing bad yet we win the vast majority of games the player plays in.

Is it a problem that that one player is playing bad yet we are still winning games?

I'm not saying this is definitely the case with Carroll but I'd take a team winning with one player playing badly every fay if the week over a player scoring goals for fun yet we win less or lose more games.

True but say a player plays poorly or looks to be playing bad yet we win the vast majority of games the player plays in.

Is it a problem that that one player is playing bad yet we are still winning games?

I'm not saying this is definitely the case with Carroll but I'd take a team winning with one player playing badly every fay if the week over a player scoring goals for fun yet we win less or lose more games.

As you can see, from my point of view stats mean nothing...there's 22 players on the pitch, they all have a part to play and they all have good and bad days, but I am not convinced we are a better team with Andy playing.

but I am not convinced we are a better team with Andy playing.

But the stats suggest we are a winning team when he plays 

I think we are a better team when we move the ball quicker and have quicker movement up front. I think we are getting results with Andy for the following reasons: If Andy plays or doesn't play we are still not scoring a lot, however when he plays we hit longer balls and so are not no easily caught on the counter and we are also better at defending set pieces. WHatever the case we are not as fragile with him but this is not necessarily the way forward. I am a pragmatist. If Andy plays well he deserves his spot, however this also must mean that we have decided on using a strategy that requires a player like Andy. I would be happy for Andy to be in our squad but I am more likely to opt for the Maxi, Kuyt, Suarez approach on most occasions.

Fact is every other team and his dog would have been in for Andy after his season with newcastle if he was allowed to leave for 10 or 15mil and that includes man u, city and chavs

. I am sure he is trying his balls off every day in training, and you cant ask for more than that and hopefully he will improve.

Well if he is in training perhaps he should try it in game time ,because there have been times when he is wandering around like a blind man in a blizzard.

Well if he is in training perhaps he should try it in game time ,because there have been times when he is wandering around like a blind man in a blizzard.

I also believe in an interview Bellamy mentioned that he is the laziest in training. I can quiet believe it cos it transcends on to the pitch also.
Part of the problem is our style of play and he doesn't fit our play at all. I think there was an element of desperation at the time due to Torres landing us in it. There was plenty of hype at the time so it probably seemed like the obvious quick choice that also fitted into the young English talent policy.
Problem is if he is not willing to make any effort to adapt then he quiet simply doesn't fit here. Unless that manager tries to change our style to fit him but I think this is pretty unlikely to be honest.
I don't buy the excuse that sales mean it doesn't matter how much he spent as this should not mean that money can just be wasted as we are gradually reducing funds needlessly. That said I think lessons may well have been learned here, if not, maybe calls will be justified but i think we could use more clarity on what kind of say Camolli has on things like this. Whilst I know KD says that he ok's who they go for etc I also remember how nice a guy he is and how he shows respect for owners and seniors at the club etc and as such I couldn't see him challenging things too much but who knows.
Id love him to come good just to shut people up but I cant see it. I could with Crouch etc cos they were doing things right bar getting the goals but with Carroll I just cant see it, he's too lazy most of the time and only has the odd little spell of having a go.
I don't care too much who there name is or where they are from as long as they give their all and play well.

Said for a long time that he looks unfit and for the length of time he's been with us that's pretty embarressing, some at the time didn't agree. I still think he doesn't sprint at all on the pitch and therefore looks unfit and lazy often, not surprising therefore that Kenny drops him so often due to lack of effort.

The most effort I see from Andy is when he's shouting at the ref, when he looks most comfortable to be honest.

I dont think the lad is at fault most times, we just dont play the system that suits his strengths, if we feed him more balls whilst he is in the box then he could offer the threat for the very purpose we bought him, but dealing with long balls as a target man who is almost at times just past his own half way line with no support isolates him totally.

A good run of games would do his confidence wonders.

I wouls like to see him in a system of  4-2-3-1.

                        Reina

kelly        Agger      Skrtl      Enrique

          Lucas               Gerrard

Johnson         Suarez          Bellamy

                       Carroll

From Paul Tomkins.

Andy Carroll

As noted by people on Twitter, Liverpool’s results in the last seven Carroll starts (after Bolton): WWDWDWW; but the last seven without Carroll starting (after Oldham): DDLLLLL. That’s quite some contrast.

TTT’s senior data analyst Dan Kennett posted some great stats on the eve of the Wigan game in the site’s comments section (which is worth the subscription fee on its own!).

(Even yesterday’s game, though not included, saw Liverpool do better with him on the pitch – ‘drawing’ 1-1 – than the 1-0 ‘defeat’ of the first half.)

    Liverpool (All Comps): P40 Win%=50, Points Per Game = 1.78

    Carroll starts: P22 W13 D5 L4, Win%=59, Points Per Game = 2.00
    Carroll doesn’t start: P18 W7 D6 L5, Win%=39, Points Per Game = 1.50

    In terms of ‘difficulty’:

    Carroll starts vs Teams higher in PL than Liverpool (All Comps v Arsenal, Chelsea, City, United, Newcastle, Spurs)
    P8 W5 D1 L2, Win%=63, Points Per Game = 2.00

    Carroll starts vs “the rest”
    P14 W8 D4 L2, Win%=57, Points Per Game = 2.00

    No Carroll start vs Teams higher
    P6 W1 D3 L2, Win%=17, Points Per Game = 1.00

    No Carroll start vs “the rest”
    P12 W6 D3 L3, Win%=50, Points Per Game = 1.75

    I think this is fascinating. Not only are the team’s results significantly better when Carroll plays, but the results with Carroll are exactly the same (2 points per game), whether versus “hard” or “easy” teams!

(Dan has subsequently worked out these stats across Carroll’s entire time at Liverpool and posted them in the site’s debate section, and they remain impressive.)

While Liverpool’s game can be less easy on the eye with Carroll in the side,  and the goals have not flowed for the no.9 as hoped, he’s certainly playing better of late; at least he was, until he started being left out.

There are too many other factors to prove conclusively that playing Carroll will lead to better results, but it’s better to have non-scoring strikers who help win games (through other contributions) than to have someone banging in a goal a game in 2-1 defeats. Either way, it’s food for thought.

I don't think it necessarily points to us playing better because of Carroll.
I think what it does show is that Suarez is not a main striker and he performs better as a second striker.
The stats back up what we all know. We need a main striker in the summer. One that can play up front.

So the real question is how do we best utilise Suarez.
A striker and winger being our priority because this season has shown that Carroll and Downing are not
the answer we were looking for.

I dont think the lad is at fault most times, we just dont play the system that suits his strengths, if we feed him more balls whilst he is in the box then he could offer the threat for the very purpose we bought him, but dealing with long balls as a target man who is almost at times just past his own half way line with no support isolates him totally.

A good run of games would do his confidence wonders.

I wouls like to see him in a system of  4-2-3-1.

                        Reina

kelly        Agger      Skrtl      Enrique

          Lucas               Gerrard

Johnson         Suarez          Bellamy

                       Carroll

The problem with that team is half of it is injured so what do you do then ,there has been times this year watching him play when i have just thought run you lazy c**t but he dosen,t ,and as has been said to death the minimum requirement is that he busts his balls out on the pitch and i just havn,t seen him do it ,sure he has had the odd good spell but that ain,t good enough at this club .

as long as the tag is on him, he cannot perform well!

I think there are a lot of things Andy does that go unnoticed (or undervalued) by supporters. Just by his presence he creates a problem for the opposing team's defenders, not to mention the number of knockdowns I've seen him win this year...just because someone isn't on the other end of them doesn't mean they won't at some point pay dividends. I think you can argue whether he's worth 35m all day and make good arguments either way, but the final score doesn't lie, and if he's helping us win games even without scoring a lot of goals then I say put him in the starting XI.