Top Four! Top Four! Top Four!

Ask their fans if they are happy to win jack sh*t this year again.

Ask their fans if they would class possibly finish 8th/10th and winning the League Cup and possibly an Fa cup would be seen as a successful season.

Pedigree of LFC is immaterial, were going into our third season without Champions League football on offer and for every year that happens or continues to happen our draw to players who want to be competing at the highest level will wane, we have to accept that as that's part and parcel of modern football.

I'm delighted we've won the league cup, I'll be delighted if we won the FA cup, but I'd have been elated if we'd got a top 4 finish as that's a true mark of our progression as a club right now.

If you look at the previous winners, In the last 10 years 5 clubs have won it who werent a top 4 team, Blackburn, Middlesbrough, Birmingham Spurs and now us.

Where are they now? What world class stars did there success enable them to sign??

Oh I get all that mate (in spades) and whilst the whole "will top players sign for a non top four team?" question is very much open to debate; I do understand the point you're trying to make.

I, personally don't believe we (or indeed Spurs) can be compared with the others you mention but... if you see us more in line with Birmingham & Middlesbrough than Man U & Chelsea ... well that's up to you.

Back on topic (I think): if Chelsea win the European Cup whichever team finishes fourth won't qualify for next season's C.L. Can you imagine how shitty that would be if it were us and we'd concentrated on that elusive fourth place to the detriment of the domestic cups?  All that elation shot to sh*t...

I'm delighted we've won the league cup, I'll be delighted if we won the FA cup, but I'd have been elated if we'd got a top 4 finish as that's a true mark of our progression as a club right now.

I know what your saying but coming from where we have been in the last 2 seasons ,in our heart of hearts did we all honestly expect miracles this year ,we have made progress even if its only getting the club on an even keel and stability back with the ownwers ,for me the top four is not the be all and end all ,some may differ and i can understand why ,everyone has a different perspective on things ,i just believe coming from where we have been ,getting to wembley for two finals ,is a step forward for us , not as big a step as some might want ,but never the less it is a step.

,i just believe coming from where we have been ,getting to wembley for two finals ,is a step forward for us , not as big a step as some might want ,but never the less it is a step.

Don't get me wrong mate so would I but I wouldn't downplay top4 either winning tophys is important for a club like ours, but also is finishing top4, they are both as important as each other, its a double edged sword really.

Them clubs you mention never have or never will have the pedigree of lfc  and there lies the difference , also 4th 3rd or 2nd gives you more, just remind me how much more it has given Arsenal in the past 6 years ,last time i looked they had layed off their trophy polisher.Ask their fans if they are happy to win jack sh*t this year again.

Well I'm pretty sure finishing 2nd/3rd and 4th and being in the CL helped fund there new stadium, might not have a trophy but they have a pretty good new stadium, don't you think?

Oh I get all that mate (in spades) and whilst the whole "will top players sign for a non top four team?" question is very much open to debate; I do understand the point you're trying to make.

I, personally don't believe we (or indeed Spurs) can be compared with the others you mention but... if you see us more in line with Birmingham & Middlesbrough than Man U & Chelsea ... well that's up to you.

Back on topic (I think): if Chelsea win the European Cup whichever team finishes fourth won't qualify for next season's C.L. Can you imagine how shitty that would be if it were us and we'd concentrated on that elusive fourth place to the detriment of the domestic cups?  All that elation shot to sh*t...

No I don't see us as Boro/B'ham but were no longer in the same catergory as the teams in the top 4, and that's a sad fact.

We need CL football and although any domestic cup success is nice it shouldn't paper over our poor league position.

I know what your saying but coming from where we have been in the last 2 seasons ,in our heart of hearts did we all honestly expect miracles this year ,we have made progress even if its only getting the club on an even keel and stability back with the ownwers ,for me the top four is not the be all and end all ,some may differ and i can understand why ,everyone has a different perspective on things ,i just believe coming from where we have been ,getting to wembley for two finals ,is a step forward for us , not as big a step as some might want ,but never the less it is a step.

Nothing to do with miracles. We spend enough money to expect better results than we got in the league this season. There's no doubt in my mind that if that money had been spend more wisely we could've qualified for CL.

I'd sacrifice short term success F.A cup wins and League Cup wins for long terms success and for long term success you need Champions League football.

We can't offer the wages that United, Chelsea and Man City can so therefore we need the Champions League as an extra incentive to attract the kind of players that can deliver long term success.

So whilst the cups are nice for the history records, Champions League football and how much you can progress as a club by having it is more important to me at the moment, we're about to go into our third season without Champions League Football and slowly but surely because of this we are becoming a less of a draw for players.

People will say F**k them, if they don't want to play for the red shirt and put Champions League football above the club then we don't want them, but that's the kind of attitude that will see us become a cup side nothing else.

We had CL for nigh on 10 years here, and none of them won a league title. We're not "a cup side", we are one of the biggest club football teams in the world, with a vast multinational fanbase. That won't change whether we're out of the CL one year or 10.

The "Istanbul" generation need to understand that Liverpool FC don't exist to play just Milan and Madrid, but all kinds of teams in all kinds of competitions. I'll be treating the League and UEFA Cup next year as seriously as playing the PL or the CL. I don't "sacrifice" competitions, we take what we're given, make the best of it, and see what happens.

The first year we looked like missing out on CL football, G&H put us on the market. Finishing 4th is important to owners and bean counters. Finishing 1st should be important to us.

We had CL for nigh on 10 years here, and none of them won a league title. We're not "a cup side", we are one of the biggest club football teams in the world, with a vast multinational fanbase. That won't change whether we're out of the CL one year or 10.

We are one of the biggest teams in the world, if not the biggest but we've been a cup side for over two decades now.

I'd sacrifice short term success F.A cup wins and League Cup wins for long terms success and for long term success you need Champions League football.

I truly understand the logic behind what you say Blood (I think), in that, to sustain continued success you need Champions League football which attracts and maybe pays for that extra top player every season. In turn, the top players have more chance of delivering more trophies. In particular the League title. Although, it must be said; that didn't exactly pan out before now.

However, although I'm still not sold on the idea that we can only get the players we need if we finish say fourth, I can buy into that notion. Just not this season. 

So whilst the cups are nice for the history records

They aren't just nice for the history records Blood - they are the history records. They're the things which go to make a club 'big'.

We are a club in transition (a transition I, wrongly, hoped would happen this season) and until we can make the next step; progress in domestic trophies has to be welcome. Whilst others may disagree; I honestly don't believe, for one minute, that progress to two Cup finals stymied our quest for fourth. There are many factors behind that particular 'failing' but the Cups weren't one.

We've blamed... bad finishing/post/crossbar/missed penalties/injuries to Gerrard, Lucas, Agger & Johnson/poor signings... Charlie Adam, Jordan Henderson, Stewart Downing & Andy Carroll/Comolli/ F.S.G. AND Kenny... but 'we've' never blamed the Cups. (Although I'm sure that, after reading this, some will  )

If we'd pissed the Cups off and concentrated on 'top four' what we'd have is both a trophy-less season and a finish outside fourth. sh*t, as JD points out in the OP; we could well have finished fourth and still have had no Champions League football next season.

The real benefits, to progress in the cups; togetherness, experience in winning as a team and the hunger for glory will reap it's own rewards (in my opinion). What better way to build proper confidence as a team than winning a medal or lifting a Cup?

I thought we were ready to challenge this season - I was wrong... but I'm long enough in the tooth to see that these cups are sowing the real seeds towards sustainable success. Oh and deny it if you want but you will all be shaking like a shitting dog with excitement and anticipation next Saturday morning... unlike the fans of the (perennial top four finishers) Arsenal. Oh yeah... 

Top four is merely a means to an end, not an end itself. We qualified for the Champions League almost every year previously, and we've had a credible challenge for the league once or maybe twice at a push in the last 20 odd seasons. Now Man City have emerged (as absolutely certain, 100% top four place claimants) and Spurs are much better than they have ever been, it's now any four from six. All previous managers who usually managed to steer us into fourth would struggle so to do today, of that I am certain. To get there we need a better team, and that takes time.

Whle we're building a better team, winning our first trophies for six seasons (many of which were endured under top four achieving managers) seems like a very sensible idea to me.

The quest for going back in to the Champions League ... starts with cuo wins

No I don't see us as Boro/B'ham but were no longer in the same catergory as the teams in the top 4, and that's a sad fact.

Well, apart from the two you mention, the only other winners are 'top four'. So, if we aren't in the same category as Boro/B'Ham, we must be in the same category (in terms of the League Cup) as Man U & Chelsea.

We need CL football and although any domestic cup success is nice it shouldn't paper over our poor league position.

Fair enough and neither should a failure to finish top four diminish our achievements in the cups... given that we've already established that it's normally the top teams who win them.

Top four is merely a means to an end, not an end itself. We qualified for the Champions League almost every year previously, and we've had a credible challenge for the league once or maybe twice at a push in the last 20 odd seasons.

Thing is Mick had our owners not Lumbered us with toxic debt and negative net spends, we could have used the all the revenue the club generated and really kicked on from that second placed finish under Rafa, instead we paid interest repayments to RBS and Wachovia and the rest as they say is history.

But lets Play a game of Ifs and Buts and Imagine just for a moment Tom & Georgey Boy were the best owners we could have possibly wished for, no debt hanging over the club and they invested the revenue that club generated into the playing staff then we probably wouldn't be talking about whats more important or about rebuilding our team sensibly.

Thing is Mick had our owners not Lumbered us with toxic debt and negative net spends, we could have used the all the revenue the club generated and really kicked on from that second placed finish under Rafa.

We weren't the only club with debt at that time. Other clubs did kick on regardless. Meanwhile we're still stuck with half a team of 7th-placed players in 2010, because they a) should never have been bought and/or b) noone else wants them.

Kenny has dragged them to cup finals, but now has to take the flak for their performances.

We weren't the only club with debt at that time. Other clubs did kick on regardless. Meanwhile we're still stuck with half a team of 7th-placed players in 2010, because they a) should never have been bought and/or b) noone else wants them.

Kenny has dragged them to cup finals, but now has to take the flak for their performances.

Except they didn't have owners at war with each other and pretty much didn't have a F***ing clue what was going on at the club.

Some of those players that he's had to drag to Cup finals were bought only this season!!

I don't really see what the owners have got to do with this particular discussion. The simple fact (or facht) of the matter is that we haven't won any trophies for six or seven seasons. Whether or not it was the owners fault, the managers fault or my fault is immaterial as far as Kenny is concerned, as he has only been in charge for one season. The season that he has been in charge for has seen us win one trophy already, with a good chance of making it two.

Now, that haul would match what we have won for the last eight or so years (numerically) so for me anyway the fact (or facht) that we haven't got into the top four this time around is not highly important. As I've said a couple of times, if we'd got into the top four and bombed out of the cups the same people who have a pop at the King today would have a pop at him for that instead.

Why? Because they want Rafa Benitez to be our manager, simples. In most cases they shy away from admitting as such, but the same thrust runs through most of their posts. Many of them want Rafa to replace Comolli as DOF and claim it "wouldn't be divisive" haha. Not much.   

The football pundit told us in 2009 that he doesn't measure a successful season by our trophy haul. Well I do and we are this season, because the league has gone kaput.

We weren't the only club with debt at that time. Other clubs did kick on regardless. Meanwhile we're still stuck with half a team of 7th-placed players in 2010, because they a) should never have been bought and/or b) noone else wants them.

Kenny has dragged them to cup finals, but now has to take the flak for their performances.

The bit I highlighted is such an hindsight-ed comment its unreal...lolol

With your logic, after every non top of the league finish, we should gut our squad of any players we don't rate as "world class"? Ignoring fluctuation in form, agreed opinion with regard to who actually is world class and stats.?

I agree that the majority of top teams probably have more considered "World class players" but I don't see many teams containing a full 22 squad of them??

And as far as world class players not coming to our wonderful club without the ECL.... Norwich City vs LFC... 24th, 28th and the 82nd minute....