Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership

Dortmund, like Liverpool were on the brink of financial collapse.

Then in 2008 after surviving and finishing in a few mediocre positions for a couple of seasons a new management team came in with a plan.

The plan was to cut costs and to boost commercial activities. Sound familiar?

Dortmund were needing a new manager and they went after a young one with desire and belief in his ethos, Jürgen Klopp. A young manager just as FSG have done with Liverpool.

The highly-rated young manager Klopp had just lead Mainz into the Bundesliga for the first time in their history. Sound familiar? Brendan Rodgers bringing Swansea City to the Premiership.

He was regarded highly in Germany as a progressive, disciplined coach just like Rodgers.

is focus had to be on youth development, any signings would need to be young players for cheap. So he set out then with the intention to build a side of hungry, young players whose value would gradually improve.  Again, sound familiar? Borini, Allen, Assaidi, etc.

Klopp decided to buy and two of his first purchases were Subotic and Hummels. Subotic signed for under €5m from former club Mainz and Hummels on a loan deal. Just as Rodgers signed Allen from former club Swansea City and loaned in Sahin. Different positions but similar idea.

THE FOLLOWING SEASON Klopp added Barrios for again, under €5m who then went on to score 19 goals. Moral of the story... Surely its better to wait and for Rodgers to sign a player next year who he has scouted and analysed preferably for a good deal rather than get ripped off on Dempsey who to be fair would have been an old and quick fix.

That following season the squad remained one of the youngest in the Bundesliga, with an average age of just 24, and the coach had full belief in the players already at his disposal. Much like I believe Rodgers has in Sterling, Assaidi, Morgan and Yesil.

They managed to capture Kagawa for €300,000 and then sold him on for around a €16m profit. Great business, money to be reinvested. Money that added to commercial money can be used in the future shrewdly to sign a player to fit the sides system without breaking the bank.

After three years at Dortmund Klopp has taken them from 13th to Champions. With debt-reduction Dortmund's main aim, Klopp had to buy carefully and the championship-winning squad cost last season cost less than £5m to assemble.

The transformation that Klopp has achieved is nothing short of miraculous. This is a team who for the past decade has wallowed in mid table mediocrity, a victim of overspending and unsustainable growth. From 2004-2010 the team did not finish above 5th. It shows that with the right man in charge and a relationship between the youth academy and senior side, sustainable growth is possible.

Dortmund have shown that with the right people in place, sustainable success is possible.  Jürgen Klopp has nurtured and developed rising talent, showing that spending lots of money is not the only answer to success.

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The point is, be patient. It takes time and Dortmund have proved that FSG's way has and can work. They made errors, big deal. They are not errors leaving the club £400m in debt and up sh*t creak. They are errors they can learn from. It took Dortmund 6 years to get back up to 5th. Patience is a virtue. I would rather Rodgers spend 5 years crafting a side meticulously than splash stupid sums on players trying to get back into the top 4. If over the next three seasons Liverpool finish 7th then 6th then 5th then so be it. Its progress. Even if Liverpool finish 8th this year and then 7th next year big deal. Great things come to those that wait.

Rodgers is a brilliant manager who can craft and get the best out of talents. If thats not true how come he turned Britton into a passing master when managers who went before him rarely featured him, one of whom shipped him off? If thats not true then why did Sinclair destroy the Championship and then go on to put in a 5 star performance in the playoff final scoring a hat trick? If thats not true then why is Raheem so clearly taking his leadership on board and putting in performances that should embarrass Downing?

I believe in the next window fans will see the real Rodgers being shrewd in business and it took a window like this playing hard ball with Fulham to prove we are not pushovers. Now in the future the club can get bargains because clubs will fear Liverpool pulling out of deals. In the future the club can grab a Kagawa, the club can sign a Hummels and a Subotic on next to nothing because thats going to be the LFC way.

A model of sustainability is key.

And the best part is, down the line when the club is successful the others will be in massive debt and everytime LFC takes a champions league place from them the debt knife gets stuck in deeper and deeper until eventually no more and they have to either sell their top talents or they collapse and have to start the process we've only just begun.

Rodgers deserves at least 3 years to put his ethos across. If fans call for his head after one season then that is a great big ***** shame and the club and fans deserve everything they get for not having the patience and support Dortmund fans have. Dortmund fans are reaping the rewards of their patience. So will we under Rodgers.

Believe it.

Well thought out, informative first post.

And agree with everything in it.

Great post. BUT we're liverpool and whoever comes to our club has to raise his standard and will experience intense pressure since we want to win.
However I think we have everything required to be successful again. We just need to make sure we develop our famous passing game again, play the young players, show faith in them and in January if we've played well in the first half of our season I'm sure we'll be able to sign the players we need. We "just" need to support our team and manager to death now. We're Liverpool and we're capable of the impossible. Come on Rodgers, Surprise us all and the EPL! YNWA

excellent post! it will take time and will be worth it in the long run YNWA

Applaud the opening post. Just hope FSG have similar faith in their man because he needs theirs and our support to turn this "ocean liner" around.

Brilliant story mate. Really hope we can success in the similar way.

Only thing I doubt is our owner, but like many said, be patient !
 

Good effort especially from an opening post.

One thing that needs to be remembered though is the Bundesliga operates of very strict financial rules, they have been operating under their own FFP for sometime now and even powerhouse Bayren has rules to follow, where still in the premiership Chelsea & City do what they want with impunity.

that's a fantastic post to analyse and think about. we have been worrying about the idea of becoming "another Arsenal" with our strict transfer policy but I liked to look at it more like Bayern - they are self-sufficient aren't they? they only spend what they make, we don't see them spending too wildly - their squad is loaded with players that have come through the ranks and they have only spent to add to that, much like we are hoping to do.

Welcome to the forum nice post puts things into perspective a little bit.

However you have overseen an important factor in your comparison. The Westfallen Stadion brings in 80,000 through the gates every game and has done so for many years now. That is almost double the number of people you will get at Anfield on match day, double the merchandise, the beers and krauts.

Dortmund, like most German clubs have responsible owners, who know what they're doing, and abide by the rules.

Our owners abide by the rules, but make mistakes at every turn, and don't deliver when hard decisions are needed. They know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Welcome to the forum nice post puts things into perspective a little bit.

However you have overseen an important factor in your comparison. The Westfallen Stadion brings in 80,000 through the gates every game and has done so for many years now. That is almost double the number of people you will get at Anfield on match day, double the merchandise, the beers and krauts.

But they have no where near the commercial muscle that Liverpool have worldwide - much more rewarding than the number of pies bought on match day.

Great post, question though.... did the opposing clubs, who Dortmund over ran to become numero uno again, have the financial backing city and chelski have? Not meant to be smart, honest question!

Could be the difference, but I love the similarity and I for one don't think FSG have done all too bad.... didnt want to see Dempsey bought for the money being discussed but Carroll should have obviously stayed, but who knows maybe Morgan can contribute a lot more than Carroll did last season and therefore a successful F**k up it will have been!

Great opening post and welcome to the forum.

Reading that gives me hope but just thinking about having to wait possibly another 5 years when we have already waited for 22 long years is killing me inside just like it would be every other Red. Let's hope if it does happen we start a dynasty and we become Champions forever or at the very least for a few seasons in a row.

the problem would be, though, the fact that the Bundesliga doesn't have a city or chelsea-esque crazy spender..

 Good post and I agree Rodgers does need 3 years to implement his policies.The only Question I have to ask is why was Kenny Dalglish not given 3 years.

it will take time. But i dont think that there are huge parallels to be drawn. They have one of the best academies out there, and it does help them bridge the gap between what they need to spend going forward and getting a better balance to the team.

If Rodgers can get the best of some of the young players at the reserves promoting them and getting quality minutes from them, the future will be bright

One of the best posts I've read in a long time. Nice to see some awareness of the Bundesliga and the similarities are clearly visible between the two clubs, I've admired Dortmund and their ethos for a couple of years now, we could certainly learn a lot from them.

Dortmund, like Liverpool were on the brink of financial collapse.

Then in 2008 after surviving and finishing in a few mediocre positions for a couple of seasons a new management team came in with a plan.

The plan was to cut costs and to boost commercial activities. Sound familiar?

Dortmund were needing a new manager and they went after a young one with desire and belief in his ethos, Jürgen Klopp. A young manager just as FSG have done with Liverpool.

The highly-rated young manager Klopp had just lead Mainz into the Bundesliga for the first time in their history. Sound familiar? Brendan Rodgers bringing Swansea City to the Premiership.

He was regarded highly in Germany as a progressive, disciplined coach just like Rodgers.

is focus had to be on youth development, any signings would need to be young players for cheap. So he set out then with the intention to build a side of hungry, young players whose value would gradually improve.  Again, sound familiar? Borini, Allen, Assaidi, etc.

Klopp decided to buy and two of his first purchases were Subotic and Hummels. Subotic signed for under €5m from former club Mainz and Hummels on a loan deal. Just as Rodgers signed Allen from former club Swansea City and loaned in Sahin. Different positions but similar idea.

THE FOLLOWING SEASON Klopp added Barrios for again, under €5m who then went on to score 19 goals. Moral of the story... Surely its better to wait and for Rodgers to sign a player next year who he has scouted and analysed preferably for a good deal rather than get ripped off on Dempsey who to be fair would have been an old and quick fix.

That following season the squad remained one of the youngest in the Bundesliga, with an average age of just 24, and the coach had full belief in the players already at his disposal. Much like I believe Rodgers has in Sterling, Assaidi, Morgan and Yesil.

They managed to capture Kagawa for €300,000 and then sold him on for around a €16m profit. Great business, money to be reinvested. Money that added to commercial money can be used in the future shrewdly to sign a player to fit the sides system without breaking the bank.

After three years at Dortmund Klopp has taken them from 13th to Champions. With debt-reduction Dortmund's main aim, Klopp had to buy carefully and the championship-winning squad cost last season cost less than £5m to assemble.

The transformation that Klopp has achieved is nothing short of miraculous. This is a team who for the past decade has wallowed in mid table mediocrity, a victim of overspending and unsustainable growth. From 2004-2010 the team did not finish above 5th. It shows that with the right man in charge and a relationship between the youth academy and senior side, sustainable growth is possible.

Dortmund have shown that with the right people in place, sustainable success is possible.  Jürgen Klopp has nurtured and developed rising talent, showing that spending lots of money is not the only answer to success.

-----------------------

The point is, be patient. It takes time and Dortmund have proved that FSG's way has and can work. They made errors, big deal. They are not errors leaving the club £400m in debt and up sh*t creak. They are errors they can learn from. It took Dortmund 6 years to get back up to 5th. Patience is a virtue. I would rather Rodgers spend 5 years crafting a side meticulously than splash stupid sums on players trying to get back into the top 4. If over the next three seasons Liverpool finish 7th then 6th then 5th then so be it. Its progress. Even if Liverpool finish 8th this year and then 7th next year big deal. Great things come to those that wait.

Rodgers is a brilliant manager who can craft and get the best out of talents. If thats not true how come he turned Britton into a passing master when managers who went before him rarely featured him, one of whom shipped him off? If thats not true then why did Sinclair destroy the Championship and then go on to put in a 5 star performance in the playoff final scoring a hat trick? If thats not true then why is Raheem so clearly taking his leadership on board and putting in performances that should embarrass Downing?

I believe in the next window fans will see the real Rodgers being shrewd in business and it took a window like this playing hard ball with Fulham to prove we are not pushovers. Now in the future the club can get bargains because clubs will fear Liverpool pulling out of deals. In the future the club can grab a Kagawa, the club can sign a Hummels and a Subotic on next to nothing because thats going to be the LFC way.

A model of sustainability is key.

And the best part is, down the line when the club is successful the others will be in massive debt and everytime LFC takes a champions league place from them the debt knife gets stuck in deeper and deeper until eventually no more and they have to either sell their top talents or they collapse and have to start the process we've only just begun.

Rodgers deserves at least 3 years to put his ethos across. If fans call for his head after one season then that is a great big ***** shame and the club and fans deserve everything they get for not having the patience and support Dortmund fans have. Dortmund fans are reaping the rewards of their patience. So will we under Rodgers.

Believe it.

What a great post! That's maybe the best ever I've read here. Agreed with everything on it and hope we all were just like you. This club need these kind of supporters at the moment more than anything else.

Fantastic OP and first post in the forum (Your second post better be in the "What's the story behind your username?" thread)

Most of us here have been so obsessed with the fact that FSG are trying to copy the Arsenal model that we never noticed this. Was Klopp not one of their prime targets as manager? Is it possible our owners who "have no knowledge of football at all" know more than we think!?

I understand that the Bundesliga doesn't necessarily have a Chelsea or a City like money bags team, let alone two of them. But one thing that always pops up in every FSG statement, letter to the fans, interviews etc. is Financial Fair Play. I think this is the biggest "risk" FSG are taking, the success of this plan (as far as I can see) depends on how UEFA back up their FFP rule. If it is reinforced then our model will look very strong indeed. If not, then we will need a sudden change of plan.

Good post and I agree Rodgers does need 3 years to implement his policies.The only Question I have to ask is why was Kenny Dalglish not given 3 years.

I think that there are three reasons for Kenny Dalglish not being given the three years:

1. The overspending on some of his transfers (not all his fault I know).
2. The handling of the Suarez affair.
3. His age, as he can no longer be considered 'young', and FSG's vision required a younger manager.

Now we may not agree with those reasons, but I just put them up as that was probably how FSG saw it.

I agree that BR deserves time to implement his ideas, I believe he is the right man and I fully support him.

Like most of the people said here: Great post! And welcome!

Everything you have written so far is right.... (i know it because as a German i support Dortmund since 1996... was really tough from 2003- 2010) BUT Dortmund Fans are very similar to the Liverpool supports! They support their club no matter what! They have a great and big fan culture in their countries. They go in the stadium and watch/support the team in every game whatever the position in the table is.

But Liverpool have higher standards than Dortmund have had. In Dortmund it could have take 6 -7 years to get back to the top. Nobody had said a word. But at our club we haven't this attitude like Dortmund. I agree  with everybody who say give BR enough time to bring us back to the top, but to say he has as much time as he needs isn't the case.  After 2 years we have to be back to the CL at least!. If we are still 7. or 8. with no real improvement he will be sacked IMO... 

Hope you guys see my point of view?

Good effort especially from an opening post.

One thing that needs to be remembered though is the Bundesliga operates of very strict financial rules, they have been operating under their own FFP for sometime now and even powerhouse Bayren has rules to follow, where still in the premiership Chelsea & City do what they want with impunity.

...and once again I find myself agreeing with AZ..this is becoming a habit.

They didnt have billionaires to deal with, we do. I dont think theres a real comparison between the German League and the PL.

Having said all that your optimism is infectious purplesnow and I want to believe. Good post.
YNWA

Great post. BUT we're liverpool and whoever comes to our club has to raise his standard and will experience intense pressure since we want to win.

Yes were Liverpool. Liverpool who have finished 7th 2 seasons on the bounce.

Dortmund are a huge German club and quite a big club on a European scale. The similarities are huge. Lets hope the outcome is the same. I see no reason it wont. Patience required from all sides, that will be the key