Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership

Every club wants to do a Dortmund.

Every club wants to do a Dortmund.

Too bloody right!

I wanted Klopp to succeed Hodgson but it was always a forlorn hope.

Brendan is the man!

This seems to have melted like the snows of last winter :)Anyway iv'e been thinking on this one and have one question , do Dortmund still have the same owners or was there a battle to depose them?

Well, structure and organisation of Bundesliga clubs is so much different from English clubs. In Germany most clubs are fan-owned only with a few excemptions (Wolfsburg, Leverkusen and Hoffenheim). Basically there's the 50+1 rule stating that members of the club must retain at least 51% ownership preventing the clubs taken over by private investors. So the clubs can only sell 49% of their shares.

Dortmund look different at first sight. Dortmund's shares are publically traded at Frankfurt stock exchange. Dortmund's type of organisation is called Kommanditgesellschaft auf Aktien (I know, long word) meaning that you've got two partners in that form of company. The one partner has unlimited liability and is responsible for the management and the other brings in the money (share holders) and has only limited liability thus the share holders don't have any saying in this type of company. The management partner of the KGaA (abbreviation for that long word) is a company that is 100% owned by the club Borussia Dortmund e.V. that is again 100% owned by the members (fans). See, you can buy as many shares as you want you don't have any influence nor authority. That right belongs to the members of the club (fans). It's a bit like a company that issues shares with no voting rights.

Good post - enjoyed reading that!

I too believe that there will be a period of sustained growth under Rodgers, but I also believe it may be slow and a tad more difficult than Dortmund's journey given the competition in the EPL compared to the Bundesliga

Well, structure and organisation of Bundesliga clubs is so much different from English clubs. In Germany most clubs are fan-owned only with a few excemptions (Wolfsburg, Leverkusen and Hoffenheim). Basically there's the 50+1 rule stating that members of the club must retain at least 51% ownership preventing the clubs taken over by private investors. So the clubs can only sell 49% of their shares.

The same business plan can be implemented by a sole owner though. The 50+1 rule is more of a protective measure than a measure that effects policy and structure. If FSG work within their budget and don't burst the bank there is no reason the Dortmund model cannot be followed. Obviously, with FSG owning the club there wont be the 50+1 rule to fall back on but if FSG are good owners and stick to their strategic method of living within their means then there is no reason to ever need that rule.

Dortmund look different at first sight. Dortmund's shares are publically traded at Frankfurt stock exchange. Dortmund's type of organisation is called Kommanditgesellschaft auf Aktien (I know, long word) meaning that you've got two partners in that form of company. The one partner has unlimited liability and is responsible for the management and the other brings in the money (share holders) and has only limited liability thus the share holders don't have any saying in this type of company. The management partner of the KGaA (abbreviation for that long word) is a company that is 100% owned by the club Borussia Dortmund e.V. that is again 100% owned by the members (fans). See, you can buy as many shares as you want you don't have any influence nor authority. That right belongs to the members of the club (fans). It's a bit like a company that issues shares with no voting rights.

Understandable and that's why it'll take longer to implement at Liverpool but at least FSG are on the right path and know that this is the best way of going about things rather than splashing £200m and tying the club up against loans. You are 100% right that the organizational structure is different but that should have little effect on policy. When Dortmund want a player, they, like FSG, will not ask all the fans and will only spend what they can afford. i.e. Kagawa out and Reus in. Its going to take patience and sensible financial moves but great things come to those that wait.

Good post - enjoyed reading that!

I too believe that there will be a period of sustained growth under Rodgers, but I also believe it may be slow and a tad more difficult than Dortmund's journey given the competition in the EPL compared to the Bundesliga

There will be eventually but fans need to learn to not panic. The club could struggle for two seasons and then make a massive step up with one or two additions. Its crucial fans dont call for Rodgers head during these periods. I also believe once the stadium works are done more money will be made available to spend.

It's all starting to fall into place. As long as Suarez stays then the main out and out goal scorer is there with the unpredictable outside forwards and creative midfielders backing them up. Then there's Toure and Agger who are both composed on the ball like Dortmund's pairing and Mignolet is also more comfortable on the ball than Reina.

Brendan knows this is the best way to get it done and with Coutinho now in there playing that Reus role and drifting and playing off the forward man then the threat is going to be deadly, especially when Suarez returns to first team football.

Also Happy Birthday Shanks!!! 

Yes were Liverpool. Liverpool who have finished 7th 2 seasons on the bounce.

Dortmund are a huge German club and quite a big club on a European scale. The similarities are huge. Lets hope the outcome is the same. I see no reason it wont. Patience required from all sides, that will be the key

1. Bayern are a spending force in the Bundesliga
2. Borussia proved they can compete by getting to the CL final
3. Getting back in the top 4 brings more money to spend rather than service debt interest which Chelsea and City both have regardless of whether they are being sugar rolled. It is all done at an interest rate

I honestly believe one more shrewd signing of real quality to compliment the likes of Coutinho and Suarez is all it takes now. A young Xabi Alonso to sit in and dictate the play as the metronome and allow the creators to do their thing and get in the holes and link up.

If we get top 4 this year then that quality signing is coming in the summer and the real rebuilding starts.

I am annoyed though that bayern have come back stronger than ever, and that dortmund's thin squad means they're having a terrible run. I would love to have their recent success but money talks eventually

It's all starting to fall into place. As long as Suarez stays then the main out and out goal scorer is there with the unpredictable outside forwards and creative midfielders backing them up. Then there's Toure and Agger who are both composed on the ball like Dortmund's pairing and Mignolet is also more comfortable on the ball than Reina.

Brendan knows this is the best way to get it done and with Coutinho now in there playing that Reus role and drifting and playing off the forward man then the threat is going to be deadly, especially when Suarez returns to first team football.

Also Happy Birthday Shanks!!! 

No he isn't. Actually completely the opposite.

Superb post and I agree with it all. The league has not been this wide open and had so many teams still competing for the title,I consider us still in with a shout. Now is the time to grasp the chance and become champions once again. I fully believe our time is coming and in the next year or 2 we'll be back where we belong.

Aye a lot of sense in the 1st post.

The difference is Dortmund sign players, we do not. Brendan Rodgers could be the second comming of Christ but without investment in talent we will never replicate what Dortmund did. Furthermore, Dortmund haven't won it the last two years and have been considerably off the pace because the rich teams went out and splashed the cash. If we are the Dortmund of the EPL, then City are the Byern of the EPL who are currently 13 points above Dortmund and finished 35 points ahead of them last season. Dortmund really aren't the best example to compare us to.

I have to say that I love watching them.

Loved it when they went up aganinst Bayern as the underdogs in the CL Final then to beat them in the Super Cup


I have made no bones about it that in our darkest hours and pre Brendan ...Jürgen Klopp was my favourite for the job here.
If BR didnt work out that would be my main man for LFC.

The guy is an eccentric nutter. Just what we need ! + Lewandowski thrown in.

Facht: They have the highest average attendance of any football club in the world and have the biggest stadium in Germany.

I mentioned this when I first joined the forum.

Mad how much we can relate to Dortmund considering they were in the exact same position as us several seasons ago.

No sugar daddy billionaire owners, no oil money, no sheikhs and no Russian billionaires just a complete rebuild from scratch which Klopp has successfully done.

Come on BR, bring us back the glory days!

I mentioned this when I first joined the forum.

Mad how much we can relate to Dortmund considering they were in the exact same position as us several seasons ago.

No sugar daddy billionaire owners, no oil money, no sheikhs and no Russian billionaires just a complete rebuild from scratch which Klopp has successfully done.

Come on BR, bring us back the glory days!

I want to be Bayern Munich, not the poor relations who have to sell one of their best players every season to a bigger club.

I want to be Bayern Munich, not the poor relations who have to sell one of their best players every season to a bigger club.

Boo F***ing hoo.

Sorry but there is actually very, very little that Liverpool have got in common with Dortmund, IMO.
The idea "we will be the ENglish Dortmund" seems to have begun on one of the website's known for its, shall we say, "professional posters". In other words, it seemed to be justification for Liverpool becoming a selling club - because Dortmund would sell to Bayern.

Taken overall, LFC and Dortmund are like chalk and cheese. Dortmund are fan owned while LFC is purely a business. Dortmund have a terrific stadium, LFC don't. LFC have a massive worldwide following in a massively successful league. Dortmund aren't in the same universe, in these terms. LFC have been eclipsed by numerous English clubs who are investing for the future. Dortmund only have Bayern as rivals - Berlin, Hamburg, all the major cities hardly even have a club of national importance, let alone global.
The differences could go on and on.

Dortmund are happy to be a strong number 2 in Germany, with little expectation in Europe vs bigger rivals. Liverpool's owners are happy to have us as number 5 to 7 in England. However, in global terms (global fan perceptions) we are as high as the top 5 or so in the World.

I'd love us to be another Dortmund, if we are talking fan ownership instead of hedge fund ownership. But if the suggestion is that we should be a selling club, because Dortmund are, then I'd gladly knock LFC on the head, until new owners appear.

I want to be Bayern Munich, not the poor relations who have to sell one of their best players every season to a bigger club.

Well said! Wouldn't mind if we were some sh*te like Everton. But we're a global megaclub, just with corporate bullshitters giving it the "Pied Piper of gullible customers" routine.

Sorry but there is actually very, very little that Liverpool have got in common with Dortmund, IMO.
The idea "we will be the ENglish Dortmund" seems to have begun on one of the website's known for its, shall we say, "professional posters". In other words, it seemed to be justification for Liverpool becoming a selling club - because Dortmund would sell to Bayern.

Taken overall, LFC and Dortmund are like chalk and cheese. Dortmund are fan owned while LFC is purely a business. Dortmund have a terrific stadium, LFC don't. LFC have a massive worldwide following in a massively successful league. Dortmund aren't in the same universe, in these terms. LFC have been eclipsed by numerous English clubs who are investing for the future. Dortmund only have Bayern as rivals - Berlin, Hamburg, all the major cities hardly even have a club of national importance, let alone global.
The differences could go on and on.

Dortmund are happy to be a strong number 2 in Germany, with little expectation in Europe vs bigger rivals. Liverpool's owners are happy to have us as number 5 to 7 in England. However, in global terms (global fan perceptions) we are as high as the top 5 or so in the World.

I'd love us to be another Dortmund, if we are talking fan ownership instead of hedge fund ownership. But if the suggestion is that we should be a selling club, because Dortmund are, then I'd gladly knock LFC on the head, until new owners appear.

Some parts I agree with you, the rest is bollocks. Anfield isn't a good ground? The atmosphere occasionally can be poor but on big games, in Europe etc it starts rocking.

What the OP means by Liverpool being the Dortmund of the Premier League is simply because Dortmund were once in our position who never had oil money, sugar daddy owners and couldn't attract marquee players then Klopp came along, started from scratch with limited resources and young players still yet to make an impression and the Dortmund fans gave Klopp time and he transformed them into a German League winning side competing in the Champions League with the best of Europe.

It's neither any of the fans fault that the European leagues are becoming so popular with non-Europeans who see at as a business making idea, ruin the culture of it by pumping ridiculous amounts of money into the teams making it as you said just a money making business.

Liverpool FC won't be a money making selling club for long as you are calling it because us Liverpool fans won't tolerate it and won't let our local boyhood clubs go to ruins by greedy American owners as LFC was made for the hard working middle class, that's were our roots lie. LFC was never intended to be a money making selling business, it was made the fans from Liverpool and the rest of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland then our popularity grew with the success and so did the English league then did the rest of Europe and most clubs now are just money making businesses.

Ok yes we have little in common with Dortmund but when you look at the background of both clubs there are similarities in which both clubs where to where they are today.

I want to be Bayern Munich, not the poor relations who have to sell one of their best players every season to a bigger club.

We never sold Suarez last season. We stuck to our word and wouldn't let him leave until he changed his mind and wanted to stay so what is your point?

I don't think running our club like Dortmund will have any significant effect whatsoever. It's pretty clear that all the money is in English football. TV revenue, multiple sponsorship deals and oil tycoons as club owners. This is something Dortmund ultimately, along with most other German teams, do not have. Four English clubs could easily outspend Bayern Munich, so to think that Liverpool can build their way to the top on a tight budget whilst City, Chelsea, United, and Arsenal are spending millions is ambitious to say the least.

This strategy may work in leagues that do not possess stupidly rich teams, but it certainly would not materialise here in the English premier league. The days of building world class teams on tight budgets are over. Even Arsenal have had to resort to breaking the bank with talent such as Ozil.

I commend Dortmund for what they have achieved; winning the league and competing for 'ol big ears, but whether they can sustain this dominance is another question that can only be answered in time.

Chelsea and City will have the luxury of making quick fixes in any circumstance - we won't. It's quite similar to how J Henry made Boston Red Soxs a dominating force. The task at hand is far simpler if you have less strong opponents to worry about. Without disrespecting the bundesliga, the only team with noticeable power is Bayern. The others are all on the periphery.

Nice post, though

Good OP - a lot of sense written there

We are making good progress - Good chance we can challenge for the title in a couple of years in my opinion.