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      Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership

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      StevieG-force
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      • Name:Richard-Age:21-Nationality:Welsh
      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #23: Sep 06, 2012 01:25:03 pm
      Like most of the people said here: Great post! And welcome!

      Everything you have written so far is right.... (i know it because as a German i support Dortmund since 1996... was really tough from 2003- 2010) BUT Dortmund Fans are very similar to the Liverpool supports! They support their club no matter what! They have a great and big fan culture in their countries. They go in the stadium and watch/support the team in every game whatever the position in the table is.

      But Liverpool have higher standards than Dortmund have had. In Dortmund it could have take 6 -7 years to get back to the top. Nobody had said a word. But at our club we haven't this attitude like Dortmund. I agree  with everybody who say give BR enough time to bring us back to the top, but to say he has as much time as he needs isn't the case.  After 2 years we have to be back to the CL at least!. If we are still 7. or 8. with no real improvement he will be sacked IMO... 

      Hope you guys see my point of view?


      I agree I think if Brendan hasn't secured Champions League football within two years the board will lose patience, I think they're expecting Rodgers to show at least some form of improvement this year too.

      I'd like to think we could have shown the same patience with Dalglish but that wasn't the case.

      I admire Dortmund for the patience they've shown in trying to instill their philosophy, evidently it payed off last year.
      soxfan
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      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #24: Sep 06, 2012 02:16:55 pm
      I understand that the Bundesliga doesn't necessarily have a Chelsea or a City like money bags team, let alone two of them.
      Plus a rich United club, stable and competitive Spurs and Arsenal...

      Great OP and I agree with most of it, but the financial power of the top handful of clubs in the Premier League is going to make our climb back up to the top more difficult than what Dortmund has done. The Bundesliga is a very financially strong league, but outside of Bayern I don't believe there is another club with overpowering financial might to compete against.
      TheRedMosquito
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      • Elmore James got nothin' on this baby!
      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #25: Sep 06, 2012 02:24:52 pm
      Dortmund is a fantastic team and probably the only other European club I root for. Fantastic OP

      As much as I enjoy wathcing German football, there are some things to consider. For example, the top 4 in Germany often has a surprise in it, and I don't think there are as many free spending clubs like there are in England, if any besides Bayern.

      Of course, you have to look at how Dortmund and Klopp have succeeded. It was young talent, bought for small fees, or players from their academy, like Sahin and Gotze. Mats Hummels was loaned from Bayern and eventually bought permanently, so they weren't afraid of bringing players in on a temporary basis. He's now one of the best CBs in the world IMO.

      Another thing about them too is they weren't snobs about where they recruited players from, either. Kagawa came from the young but growing J-League, while they also have a number of Polish players who are fixtures in their side in Blaszczykowski, Lewandowski, and Piszczek. With all due respect to Poland, it's not a massive talent pool.

      So I think Dortmund has shown that it CAN be done, but it's unknown whether it can be done to the same extent in England. But if they've proven anything, you can't dismisses players based on age, transfer fee and where they come from. Ultimately, the only thing that matters is the quality of the player coming in.
      kevinho
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      • YNWA
      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #26: Sep 06, 2012 03:29:13 pm
      Patience is a virtue that unfortunately a lot of our fan base doesn't have. They still think the 1980s are right around the corner. A player like Kagawa or Barrios would never be given time to settle as plenty of fans would be on their asses from day one complaining about who we didn't buy and moaning and groaning at the first mistake.

      Great first post.
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #27: Sep 06, 2012 04:37:09 pm
      Wow, I thought what a first post, well written, very informative. A cracking, upbeat, optimistic, post at a time when it was needed. Nice one.

      Where has this poster been hiding for the past three months? Until now; not even a hint, in any other thread, of such talented writing and informed opinion - I look forward to reading more like it, from him, on other subjects.

      One thing tho'; it would be nice for you to post a link(s) to the article(s) used in the first part of your post purplesnow.

      I'd like, so much, to give you a plus for that mate... maybe next time.  :angel:
      HeighwayToHeaven
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      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #28: Sep 06, 2012 05:37:06 pm
      What a great OP and a first posting too.  :gt-happyup:

      Welcome to the forum.
      Billo
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      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #29: Sep 06, 2012 06:32:12 pm
      i gotta say i dont care if it was a article or not. it made me feel good and believe that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Not a happy years for us recently but we had some great moments too tho. Carling cup, Kop singing "Daglish, Daglish" and suarez tearing apart scum's defence.
      GERNS
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      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #30: Sep 06, 2012 07:46:36 pm
      Very clever first post, the comparisons are very similar without doubt. I agree it could happen given time, although not unlimited time, and apart from competing with the mega bucks clubs we also have to recognise talent early enough to develop it fully and reap the rewards. Thinking now of young Ince, why did we ever let him move on, he's on fire at the moment and tipped for the top. As for the youngsters, "won't win anything with a bunch of kids" how often have we heard that tinged with sarcasm. We will never know if they are up to it if we don't give them a run in the side.
      TheSturridgeShake
      • Forum Dean Saunders
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      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #31: Sep 06, 2012 08:53:12 pm
      In regards to fans mentioning in Chelsea and Manchester City's spending power I understand your points but you have to factor in that money does not always make a team. Players need to gel regardless of their prices and the training methods and style of a team can be very important in that happening.

      Swansea City have only really spent the Allen money and picked up bargains. Michu for £2m, De Guzman is on loan I believe but he is a brilliant player who fits the system and allows the others to get forward whilst sweeping up behind them and breaking down attacks. He allows Britton to get into full flow as Swansea City's metronome and dictate play and control possession. That didn't happen overnight, it took nyon 6 years from Martinez to Sousa to Rodgers to find that perfect balance but they found.

      The big point is they found it whilst being sustainable. Not once did they need a top 6 Championship finish to earn playoff competition money to keep ticking over. Thats what the top clubs in the Premiership need to do at Premiership level. They need the competition money to be able to tick over otherwise times will get tougher for them.

      Loads of money is not needed to compete. Newcastle are testament to that to some degree. There are plenty of bargains out there. Whilst many fans would love the owners to go out and splash out £25m on a striker that would be a bad idea in my opinion. If he flops like Carroll there is no return on him and the club are stuck with him on the books looking to loan him out to save on the wages. If Rodgers looks now over the next season for a bargain who can fit his system the club could pick up a player like Barrios for a bargain who could turn into a player of world class ability and we'd instantly be looking at a profit.

      Arsenal are proof money does not need to be spent massively to compete. They are always floating up there amongst the top 4 and although they have won nothing for ages that is down to a completely different reason entirely. The reason is they sell their best players at their peak to maximise profits and intake. They sell players like Nasri when they're in the form of their life to rivals so whilst they are making money they are also strengthening rivals, i.e. again the Van Persie deal. That has been one main fault in Arsenals plans.

      The fact is Liverpool need to buy cheap and once the players have reached their best the club must hold on to them, thats how the club can compete at the next level above Arsenal. The club must do what Arsenal are doing but then hold on to the key players instead of selling them on. Maybe sell one or two to make profits but then add that profit to commercial income and you can reinvest into a quality player.

      With £3m per season interest to service the club should now realistically be making a profit. With profit comes investment. With profit also comes other great things one of which being not having to worry about where the club is tomorrow.

      There are 3 ways a club can compete at the top and only 1 keeps a club in the black financially

      1) The FSG/Dortmund method - sustainability and spending what the club earns
      2) The billionaire owner method - An owner comes in and splashes loads of cash using loans with around 7% interest rate which is usually around the rate used these days in football business
      3) The loans and relying on competition money method - Again, this builds up debt and interest - the route LFC have already been down - it does not work all the time and has a massive risk factor - one that can set you back just as it has now - the club are now paying for the mistakes of this method - no one wants to go down this route again

      Out of all three the 1st option is the best - it keeps the club afloat and thats what matters most. Keeping the club afloat and making profits is key to the long term plan. FSG have tried as much as possible to maximise commercial ventures. Some fans not like the clubs details aired on TV but at the end of the day those same fans would be the first scraping the walls if FSG racked up a £20m debt instead.

      Money does not always equal a good squad. Manchester City splashed millions on players like Robinho and then had to get rid and that would have cost them money, no doubt about it. They are high risk moves. A good squad, a good team that can compete can be built on a shoe string budget and Swansea on a shoe string budget have beaten teams with much more investment by simply playing them off the park. Their problem is lack of quality in depth and thats because they do not have the commercial activity a club like Liverpool have to capitalise on.

      In regards to people saying Dortmund don't have massive competitors in the Bundesliga, again that is false. Clubs have tried to spend their way up the league but have failed thus collapsing. Owners in the Bundesliga who own 49% (Because of the 50+1 rule) have tried to do it and failed because teams like Dortmund have capitalised on long term sustainability. Munich spend quite a bit of money and Dortmund beat them last year, they beat a side who got to the final of the Champions League (pens may I add) to the title. That proves teams can compete on a shoe string budget. Its all about being clever in the market and scouting and poaching talent that can fit the ethos at the club. There is no point spending £30m on a player hoping he will fit the plans just because he is a name. There is a point in spending £5m on a young striker you have scouted and can nurture into a great talent. Its less of a gamble first and foremost but you can also make sure he can fit your style.

      The stadium issue - Liverpool charge more than Dortmund for tickets. Dortmund's tickets are on average €15. They may take in 80,000 but their fans are paying a lot less per ticket and Dortmund do not issue a lot of season tickets because of regulations in place that favour the fans.

      For example - if you look at the pricing.

      The average Dortmund ticket is just €15 (roughly £12)
      The average for Anfield I believe is around the £45 mark. (11/12 stats - unsure of this season, I will admit)

      The maths

      £12*80,000 vs £45*40,000 = we won't factor in a full crowd at Anfield

      Dortmund take in roughly £960,000 per home game
      Liverpool take in roughly £1.8m - almost double because of inflated prices in the UK

      So as you see the bigger stadium comparison doesn't really reflect the truth because the DFB doesn't allow German clubs to rake in cash as is the case in the UK. Their clubs actually get less in gate receipts which of course benefits the fans financially, but not the club. However the clubs do not need to rake in all that cash because they are not in stupid amounts of debt like Premiership clubs. Thats why QPR, Arsenal, United, Chelsea etc all charge stupidly inflated prices - to service debts.

      I can see your points and understand this may all come across as spin but until I see FSG start selling star players after 1 good season for maximal profit like Arsenal I'll show belief in them.  :)
      zanwalk
      • Forum Jason McAteer
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      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #32: Sep 06, 2012 11:05:24 pm
      purplesnow

      Both your posts are well thought through and reasoned intelligently. Thank you for your contributions to this forum. I agree with you on pretty much all points, though I am fairly uninformed regarding the Bundesliga so I will take your word on that.

      I think most LFC fans are slowly coming to terms with the fact that the road ahead is long and hard, and that there is no quick fix solution on the horizon that will suddenly propel this club back to the top. If BR can put in place a good scouting network I believe he will be successful here, as I see that as being the key to climbing the league table again. You mention Newcastle in your post as an example of a club spending wisely and financially sound. It is strange to think that only a couple of years ago, they were in a sorry state and seemingly directionless with an owner who wanted to sell. They are a wholly different proposition these days, and there is no reason why this club cannot emulate them.
      ilikeliverpool
      • Forum John Toshack
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      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #33: Sep 06, 2012 11:07:34 pm
      Good post. Mentioned Dortmund in one of the arguing threads.

      There is no successful example out there of a club doing the things his letter states and competing for trophys on a regular basis.

      Son Of A Gun
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      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #34: Sep 06, 2012 11:09:43 pm
      P.S. purplesnow is bang on correct. Great to see some rationality and informed news from him.
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #35: Sep 07, 2012 07:11:11 am
      I can see your points and understand this may all come across as spin but until I see FSG start selling star players after 1 good season for maximal profit like Arsenal I'll show belief in them.

      Oh it's spin alright but nothing to be ashamed of is a bit of spin. A good portion of positive spin is just the medicine Dr. Henry ordered; after his turbulent two years in charge.

      Faith makes a fine pillow in times of trouble and if you need to have faith in our owners; work away Purps.

      I'll have faith that the manager can get the players creating chances, turning all that possession into goals and winning football matches (just like Dortmund). I had that same faith last season too.

      Oh just one thing tho'; Kagawa - didn't Dortmund sell him on for maximum profit, (as outlined in the article you posted, in your first post), after one good season and didn't you applaud that?  Maybe it's just as well then that you aren't a Dortmund fan; eh?   :-\


      « Last Edit: Sep 07, 2012 07:23:07 am by bad boy bubby »
      ilikeliverpool
      • Forum John Toshack
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      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #36: Sep 07, 2012 08:01:33 am
      Oh just one thing tho'; Kagawa - didn't Dortmund sell him on for maximum profit, (as outlined in the article you posted, in your first post), after one good season and didn't you applaud that?  Maybe it's just as well then that you aren't a Dortmund fan; eh?   :-\
      They replaced him with Reus though!
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #37: Sep 07, 2012 08:09:50 am
      Oh, I see, it's okay if a player is sold, for maximum profit, if he's replaced with someone who may turn out to be just as good.

      My bad but to be fair the snow didn't mention that.

      Slightly off topic but... Do you own the site Ilikeliverpool.me or just like it?
      ilikeliverpool
      • Forum John Toshack
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      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #38: Sep 07, 2012 09:04:04 am
      Oh, I see, it's okay if a player is sold, for maximum profit, if he's replaced with someone who may turn out to be just as good.

      My bad but to be fair the snow didn't mention that.

      Slightly off topic but... Do you own the site Ilikeliverpool.me or just like it?
      I own it, gives me something to do if bored. But hoping to develop it more in the future to include things people actually want to read, rather than just my ramblings.

      I think the Reus signing - he's as good if not better than Kagawa - shows that it's not all about signing cheap and selling. I think he cost slightly more than they received for Kagawa, but is one of Germany's biggest prospects as you could see in the Euros. They also signed a few prospects this summer too for low prices.

      I think if we ever get to their stage, and it's a big if, we'd operate in a similar way. Buy and sell well, but spend on the right player if they're a perfect fit for our system.

      We've kind of done that already with Allen, but we don't have the other part of this plan already in place yet. Assaidi would be an example of the other type.
      bigears
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      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #39: Sep 07, 2012 09:48:51 am
      A bit strange to say the least , a good post actually a great post for an opening post . But it seems a bit timely for me , I'd have to question the background of the Purplesnow to be honest.I wonder does he work in Boston by any chance.
      Paisleydalglish
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      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #40: Sep 07, 2012 10:08:46 am
      A bit strange to say the least , a good post actually a great post for an opening post . But it seems a bit timely for me , I'd have to question the background of the Purplesnow to be honest.I wonder does he work in Boston by any chance.

       ;D

      You old synic you..

      But I have kept out of this debate as something doesn't sit right with me either mate.
      bigears
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      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #41: Sep 07, 2012 10:16:26 am
      ;D

      You old synic you..

      But I have kept out of this debate as something doesn't sit right with me either mate.
      I was kind of expecting the cavalry to arrive PD , i wonder have other sights recieved similiar opening posts  ;)He's some poster to be honest , very eloquent in his manner and very businesslike. ;)
      Paisleydalglish
      • Guest
      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #42: Sep 07, 2012 10:20:23 am
      I was kind of expecting the cavalry to arrive PD , i wonder have other sights recieved similiar opening posts  ;)He's some poster to be honest , very eloquent in his manner and very businesslike. ;)

      I just wonder if he "just found this place and really wants to get involved"
      Why he hadn't looked round and posted anything else..

      And whereas it's a decent comparison there are elements that just won't tally..

      But I'm just a synic as well and not getting into this one..
      Had AZ or Rodders etc posted it I would treat it with the respect it deserves and get into my reservations with it.

      Anyway.. I'm off to talk about our club.
      ilikeliverpool
      • Forum John Toshack
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      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #43: Sep 07, 2012 10:42:16 am
      A bit strange to say the least , a good post actually a great post for an opening post . But it seems a bit timely for me , I'd have to question the background of the Purplesnow to be honest.I wonder does he work in Boston by any chance.
      You could be right, but either way it's a good post and there is truth in it. If it's truth does the source matter?

      I'm always sceptical of people who post more than 4 paragraphs for a forum post!

      P.S. Do you work in Texas by any chance? ;)

      comparing these with H&G is mad! :)
      PaulKG
      • Forum Billy Liddell
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      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #44: Sep 07, 2012 12:12:27 pm
      This is a bloody great post. Obviously doenst just mean that, oh yeah dont worry were gonna win the league in 2 years. But gives reassurance to some of the fans who were or who still are dubious about our dealings from top to bottom over the past few months.
      Scotia
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      Re: Liverpool FC - The Dortmund of the Premiership
      Reply #45: Sep 07, 2012 02:28:32 pm
      Hmmm - my ol fella warned me about coloured snow....what was it now...?

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