Transfer Policies... How does the move the club forward; a worry for the game?

I was thinking the other day about how is best for us to move forward in terms of transfer strategies now.. Its no secret we have been poor in terms of transfers over recents years and we have lacked any decent long termism over transfer plans for a while, we have been for want of a better phrase knee jerk in our approach..

What? we have 50 million? lets spend it as soon as we f**king can.. What? I dont know who? I dont care.. Just spend it

What we need is a clear plan, Brendan seems to have a vision and has been rightly pointed out he will need his own players to implement that.. So He right now as we stand should be planning at least two windows in front, be thinking what he needs and sending scouts out to look for those players and speaking with their representetives and checking on their availablility, price, wage demand, personality... To see if they will fit in here. Not just go for the current "hot property".
We need to be spendning the money we have better, so therefore have these long term scouting in progress, and if target A doesnt come off, then have target B there to fall back on.. To stop what happened in the summer happening again with Dempsey.
Whats making me think he may well be doing this is with Sturridge, he aparently lined him up in the summer, had a deal "in principle" there, but waited, something wasnt right, so rather than rush in waited and now it looks as though it will go through.. And on the first of the month rather than the last. A player he wants done all bar the contract being signed, someone he feels will fit "his style"
He spoke the other day about wanting a traditional No.10 and that the process had started, hinting it was for the summer.. Again forward planning, finding the right players rather tha think.. I want a number 10... i want one now...

We dont have bundles of cash so deals need to be perfect, no-one gets all deals right, transfers are a form of lottery, but if we can turn it into 75% hits then we will be doing better.

What we dont need are people forcing players on the manager, let him set out the perameters of the search and then get final say in who is brought to him.. I have to wonder (as the story is Assaidi wasnt a Rodgers signing and that he refused a DOF) if he is proving a point with Assaidi, who has done well in his outings but is never in the reckoning for the league.. Is Rodgers saying, they can be 3 million or 30 million, unless i want them and i bring them in i wont use them

One of the biggest problems in my opinion the club has suffered over recent times is the constant restarting of these processes... Changing managers, changing ideas, changing plans.. We need to stick to one coherent plan and see it through.. Woy came in and brought his players, Kenny came in and didnt rate some, so they move on, normally at a loss or you cant move them on because of obseen wages.. Kenny brings his own players in.. Kenny gets sacked, Brendan comes in doesnt rate some.. Moves them on..
Round and round we go..
So we need to stick by the manager, he be able to know what he has to spend over  a few windows and put plans in place now for the next few, not wondering if he will be sacked like Kenny or Woy and having to take gambles on signings that may have a percieved more immediate impact.. Id like to think that Borini and Allen were the first parts of a big jigsaw he is putting together, that Sturridge and Ince are the next parts and that he is already thinking of his summer parts (the No.10 etc)

A worrying part of the game and us is the table that came out recently...




Of course for me we stand out, how have we paid 7 million quid to agents? I cant find the interview, not for the lack of looking, but i remember reading an interview with Werner/Hnery when they first brought the club saying they found these payments and fee's daft and they would stop the uneeded money going from the club to agents.. So have they now realised its imposible to stop or have we simply just not got any better at it? It cant be impossible as some clubs pay very little..
We are a big club, should it get to a stage where we are sat round the table with agents and players and they ask for daft fees's then just walk away, give them the chance to play here, at Anfield for Liverpool and a competetive wage, the rest can f**k off..
Move on to target B..

Do transfer windows make it easier for agents to force this? By having a short period of time to do deals do clubs feel backed into a corner almost over the need to get these deals done?
I heard Neil Mellor talking on City the other day and he said he has never had an agent when he played, he felt they were only in it for themselves, that players were being railroaded by agents to move when its probably not the time to do so.. that he wasnt sure that players truely understood what agents were taking, that they take a fee from the player and from the club..
He recounted a story from his time at Liverpool where after he had played 3 games under GH that Houllier took him to one side to say he wanted to offer him a new deal, which Mellor was delighted with, asked him to go with his agent, Mellor said no, that he didnt belive in them and that the PFA would act on his behalf.. He never heard about the new deal again or played under Houllier again in the first team.

Its not just us though, i heard Harry Redknapp talking the other day about his squad at QPR... saying that the wage bill was crippling.. That he told Jose Bosingwa that he was on the bench and he refused to play.. That he had fined him two weeks wages, 130,000.. Which as a basic was higher than anyone he had at Spurs.. The situation with bringing Green and Cesar in within weeks of each other? Madness
QPR? They average what 18,000 a week at Loftus road? Must have a wage bill to get on rival ours.. Boardering on relegation.. Footballs gone mad.

Agents and transfer windows should be thrown out of the game for me.. Both causing football debts it cant handle..

We seem to be making a bit of a stand over wages and agents.. We supposedly refused Sturridges agents demands and the move is still going through, and we are looking to tie down talented kids on good contracts but not obscene ones.. Making them work to get the next grade in payment before give it them before they truely deserve it.. Rightly so in my opinion..Thats a plus and credit must go to the owners for that from me

What do people think on our transfer plans though? For the long term are we better to miss out on the odd few players to make sure we get the long term right?

I think Houllier and Rafa had the right idea by signing untested (prem) players from abroad, but which they rated - It adds to the excitement because you have no idea how they are going to to do. Also if they do flop, most of the time you're not stuck with crazy wages like the British players. I'd love us to scout Africa and unearth a few gems like Ba or Cisse for a million or two, they could only do better than what previous signings have done!

Also, the higher agent fees could be because we're not in the champions league, to sort of sweeten the deal. + the fact we have spent big.

I agree that we need to have a proper transfer policy in place PD and I think BR was right to overhaul the scouting system.

We shouldn't be in a position where knee jerk decisions are necessary any more and each new arrival should be as near a perfect fit as possible.

No more square pegs and round holes from now on.

I'm also pleased that stupid contracts and agents demands aren't being met.  He said with Sigurdsson that he refused to offer him a bigger contract than he's been offered to go to Swansea and quite right too.

The role of agents is the latent, underlying influence that serves to further distort some of the very fair points you make in that OP PD.

Their existence depends on the ability to create a steady flow of traffic through major clubs (in particular) but also football in general. It plays to that other "x-factor" you highlight - the itchy trigger fingers of chairman driving a constant need for re-invention in both squad and back room team.

We do need to try to step outside this as much as we can and I do think overhauling the scouting team is the first major step on the journey.

I think rafa had a 75% record with transfers but I don't think Brendan has the team or name to get those kinds of players tbh plus we seem to have less money now with higher prices and more competition

I think 'future proofing' is over rated tbh either he's a good player now who fits the system ad can adapt or not.we just haven't bought very Many high quality players and somehow still spent a lot of money

I think Houllier and Rafa had the right idea by signing untested (prem) players from abroad, but which they rated - It adds to the excitement because you have no idea how they are going to to do. Also if they do flop, most of the time you're not stuck with crazy wages like the British players. I'd love us to scout Africa and unearth a few gems like Ba or Cisse for a million or two, they could only do better than what previous signings have done!

Also, the higher agent fees could be because we're not in the champions league, to sort of sweeten the deal. + the fact we have spent big.

I think what you would find happens generally with any manager is that they fall back into their comfort zone, the markets and players they understand and know the best..

Houllier brought alot from the French market, Rafa from the Spanish, Kenny and Brendan will be more British as thats what they know, its eliminates certain risks with them bringing players in that they may consider more risky and they know less about in terms of style, adapability and also the players are more aware of them as coaches and what they are after..

What we ideally need is a manager once he has that base he trusts to be given time and the knowledge that even with a few bad months, even a poor season that the rug wont be pulled from under his feet and the whole process starts again.. That they can plan 2-3 windows in advance and send scouts to places you mention with a model to fit, personalities they can work with, but not the expectation to find a star straight away.

For that they need their bosses and us to show patience

I think rafa had a 75% record with transfers but I don't think Brendan has the team or name to get those kinds of players tbh plus we seem to have less money now with higher prices and more competition

I think 'future proofing' is over rated tbh either he's a good player now who fits the system ad can adapt or not.we just haven't bought very Many high quality players and somehow still spent a lot of money

Rafa had plaenty that didnt work, thats not a criticism but an observation, for every Macherano and Torres there were plenty of Nunez, Kromkamp's, Gonzalez's and Josemi's...
That was due to always having to bring in players he may have deemed short term as the money wasnt really there under the previous owners and also having to overhall a side/squad in reletively short periods, therefore where i mention about being able to scout longer term, over 2-3 windows, get their personalities and their potential adaptability to a new country/culture etc would be benificial.. Longer term scouting is the key, slowly building, adding 2-3 a year that have been fully checked out to a managers squad rather than 5-6, where 2 may naver work out.. They may be good players but can they settle in England, can they live up to the physical side of the game?

Look at Josemi, Kromkamp and Arbeloa for example... 3 good right backs in good form and on the cusp... Only 1 adapted to the league.. Could longer scouting have reduced the risk? Stopeed us wasting 3 transfer fee's, 3 signing on fee's, 3 agents fees'...

Its a minefield that for it to be stable we need security and stability around the club, from the top, Brendan must know he is safe from a bad run.. That the long term vision which we have lacked for a while is there

Scouting and talent evaluation may be even more important that coaching. I think it transcends sports and it's one of those things where if you get the right players, they don't need to be "coached up" so much as set loose. They will work no matter what system you put them into and they will have a positive impact on the rest of the team. I think that's why folks lean so heavily on big names nowadays. They believe that's the only way to know for certain that you are getting a tried and true, quality player. Problem is most clubs don't have the money to bring in one player like that, much less a couple.


So you get the situation that we are in (and maybe most clubs to be honest) where you buy several "value" type players and hope one or two work out. I don't think that's Brendan's thinking necessarily...I'm sure all the players he requested he thinks will come good, but I think in general that's what teams are doing. It does worry me that we don't appear to be scouring all of the big leagues for talent and mostly focusing on English talent this window. Could it be that due to the shortness of the window and the need to get people in right away that we don't want to look overseas or across borders due to some perceived difficulty in getting those types of deals done quickly?

Not sure what the answer is but agree with you PD in that we really have to have a structure in place and stick to it for this thing to work.

Is it possible to win the league in this day and age id you don't spend an absolute shed load of money? Is it realistic to expect or hope that we can challenge in the league whilst buying players for 10-15 million pounds and not being able to compete for the really top talent available? I'm asking the questions honestly, not loading them up.

Is it possible to win the league in this day and age id you don't spend an absolute shed load of money? Is it realistic to expect or hope that we can challenge in the league whilst buying players for 10-15 million pounds and not being able to compete for the really top talent available? I'm asking the questions honestly, not loading them up.

No is the answer.Its not just that City buy players for twice the value we have they also have twice the number we have so could play two teams in the EPL, how can we compete with that when we buy the likes of Borini or Assaidi.
As it stands in all honesty top 6 would be a result for the club top 4 would be like winning the league.
Brendan would need in Excess of £100mil net spend to add 4 or 5 CL quality players to this squad to get it anywhere near the top of the league and we would still be short in numbers.
Its quite scary.
FSG hope to develop players and a team over 3,4 or 5 years and see steady progress.Good luck with that because as you progress the goal posts are being moved further and further away.

No is the answer.Its not just that City buy players for twice the value we have they also have twice the number we have so could play two teams in the EPL, how can we compete with that when we buy the likes of Borini or Assaidi.
As it stands in all honesty top 6 would be a result for the club top 4 would be like winning the league.
Brendan would need in Excess of £100mil net spend to add 4 or 5 CL quality players to this squad to get it anywhere near the top of the league and we would still be short in numbers.
Its quite scary.
FSG hope to develop players and a team over 3,4 or 5 years and see steady progress.Good luck with that because as you progress the goal posts are being moved further and further away.

 I've got to say I agree mate, particularly with your last point. I think because of this sometimes people get it wrong when they allude to previous glory years, the game has changed and we cannot compete (or we will not compete/whatever) in the transfer market. I personally don't think it would make too much difference who was in charge at the moment, if you slash as much off the wage bill as we have and then don't invest a large sum of money, it is unrealistic to expect us to improve from being 8th into title challengers. The current top three are a mile ahead of all the other squads in the league, and even Tottenham and Arsenal have a far better group of players than we do. I totally agree with anyone who says we should finish above Everton and Stoke, but much higher than that is over-achievement based on our current resources. Going forward, that isn't going to change regrdless of how many players we develop.

Brendan would need in Excess of £100mil net spend to add 4 or 5 CL quality players to this squad to get it anywhere near the top of the league and we would still be short in numbers.

would you trust BR with that sort of money

My post in the Brendan Rodgers threat sums up my thoughts on what we should be doing.

F**k all these big money signings just for the sake of spending millions, actually scout around and see if there's a better option in the lower leagues because usually there is and for a lot less money. For that to happen though the manager actually needs a pair of balls because the majority of fans won't accept buying a young lad from Bristol City for a couple of million when there's somebody from Getafe for three or four times as much money and a much fancier sounding name.

But the nearly 30 million we spent this summer could, in my opinion, been spent a lot better with a bit of scouting around the lower leagues.

My post in the Brendan Rodgers threat sums up my thoughts on what we should be doing.

F**k all these big money signings just for the sake of spending millions, actually scout around and see if there's a better option in the lower leagues because usually there is and for a lot less money. For that to happen though the manager actually needs a pair of balls because the majority of fans won't accept buying a young lad from Bristol City for a couple of million when there's somebody from Getafe for three or four times as much money and a much fancier sounding name.

But the nearly 30 million we spent this summer could, in my opinion, been spent a lot better with a bit of scouting around the lower leagues.

I think there are bargains to be had all around Europe mate, not just in England. Sadly we seem to go for the "flavour of the month" players. Players that have just had one outstanding season, so we pay top dollar without knowing if that is their level rather than their career season. Downing .... player of the year at Villa before we bought him. Keane had his best season just before we bought him.

If we are going to gamble on players maybe we should try to buy players before they have their career defining season rather than just after..... let them have their great season with us rather than paying over the odds for players who flatter to deceive.

Swansea got a bargain with Michu, so the players are out there, we just need decent scouts to find them, rather than scouts that just pick the players that anyone who reads a newspaper could choose.   

For that to happen though the manager actually needs a pair of balls because the majority of fans won't accept buying a young lad from Bristol City for a couple of million when there's somebody from Getafe for three or four times as much money and a much fancier sounding name.

Or Michu for 2 Million.

Doesn't have to be an expensive signing.
I'd be happy to have us make the right signing regardless of where they are from.

I think there are bargains to be had all around Europe mate, not just in England. Sadly we seem to go for the "flavour of the month" players. Players that have just had one outstanding season, so we pay top dollar without knowing if that is their level rather than their career season. Downing .... player of the year at Villa before we bought him. Keane had his best season just before we bought him.

If we are going to gamble on players maybe we should try to buy players before they have their career defining season rather than just after..... let them have their great season with us rather than paying over the odds for players who flatter to deceive.

Swansea got a bargain with Michu, so the players are out there, we just need decent scouts to find them, rather than scouts that just pick the players that anyone who reads a newspaper could choose.   

I agree there's signings to be had all over Europe mate. It was probably wrong of me to state just lower leagues as I did mean bargains anywhere around the globe - just laziness on my part really.

But we do go for the flavour of the month type players, you're right there. And that's what has stung us so often in recent years. Such is the demand for success at this club (and it grows with every passing year that we don't win the League) the managers panic and go for somebody who has just had a great season thinking that will be the quick fix.

That's why I say we need somebody with a pair of balls to manage us.

No is the answer.Its not just that City buy players for twice the value we have they also have twice the number we have so could play two teams in the EPL, how can we compete with that when we buy the likes of Borini or Assaidi.
As it stands in all honesty top 6 would be a result for the club top 4 would be like winning the league.
Brendan would need in Excess of £100mil net spend to add 4 or 5 CL quality players to this squad to get it anywhere near the top of the league and we would still be short in numbers.
Its quite scary.
FSG hope to develop players and a team over 3,4 or 5 years and see steady progress.Good luck with that because as you progress the goal posts are being moved further and further away.

Where the hell does £100mil come from ?

The owners don't have that just in the bank waiting to be spent.

We don't have the oil money to spend - its not going to happen

And we would also need to earn it back to ensure it stays within FFP

What we need is a couple of things -

1. To expand our commercial incomings and match day revenue through increase capacity

2. Improve our scouting massively - £140m has been spent on players and we have one world class player to show from that money - the majority has been wasted. Plenty of teams are buying quality players at the fraction of the price - our scouts need to find those players

3. Finally we will need FFP to work and for it to be successful.

The days of clubs just blowing £100 mil in one go have gone now. Even Chelsea spent the majority of their money on young talent in recent years.

My post in the Brendan Rodgers threat sums up my thoughts on what we should be doing.

F**k all these big money signings just for the sake of spending millions, actually scout around and see if there's a better option in the lower leagues because usually there is and for a lot less money. For that to happen though the manager actually needs a pair of balls because the majority of fans won't accept buying a young lad from Bristol City for a couple of million when there's somebody from Getafe for three or four times as much money and a much fancier sounding name.

But the nearly 30 million we spent this summer could, in my opinion, been spent a lot better with a bit of scouting around the lower leagues.

Agree with this, completely disillusioned by our scouting / transfer policy and overall business we've done in recent years. Rodgers was discussing how the purse strings will be loosened in the Summer, if this relates to the new team of scouts coming in and some confidence being put in them I've no idea but I'd just like to see us sign someone who surprises us rather than disappoints. Granted you would bracket Suarez in that statement but at £23m I expected at least a decent return for our money but considering he's the exception so far I'm not going to allow hats to be hung on him alone.

Spot on posts from Luke, Saint, DLS and Racer

there are players out there just need a better scouting system, downing did any of us want him also adam ,henderson, they all came for good money but they didnt really get us excited, when Rafa signed garcia, alonso we need really know them, we have this link up with a uruguayan team and got coates there are untapped players out there just need to find them belguim football seems to producing a lot of top notch players do we have scouting there probbly not

Spot on posts from Luke, Saint, DLS and Racer and of course, Mick

 Changed it up for you mate 

Changed it up for you mate 

Sorry Mick missed your posts

maybe the scouting system relies too much on how many inches in a game they pass the ball etc.What is needed is for the manager to have the balls to sign a player who fits the bill for the position and if it is a player who costs £2mil from Bristol buy him.
The buying in the past was buying into a succesful team and we could afford to take a chance on a kid from Bristol whilst also buying in a top quality player each year.
Our problem is we have fallen too far behind and nobody really seems to know what the answer is.

Just going off what George has said in the transfer rumours thread. Dries Martin, the last available talented Belgian player. Why haven't we been actively in on the Belgian talent out there, why aren't we snapping up some of the cream in Germany, etc.

Tom Ince and Daniel Sturridge? I could of scouted them myself.

Just going off what George has said in the transfer rumours thread. Dries Martin, the last available talented Belgian player. Why haven't we been actively in on the Belgian talent out there, why aren't we snapping up some of the cream in Germany, etc.

Tom Ince and Daniel Sturridge? I could of scouted them myself.

Exactly - he is out there - easily a player that we could get , would provide far better options than Sturridge as well.

Everton or Newcastle will get him and in 2 years someone will pay £30mil for him.

maybe the scouting system relies too much on how many inches in a game they pass the ball etc.What is needed is for the manager to have the balls to sign a player who fits the bill for the position and if it is a player who costs £2mil from Bristol buy him.
The buying in the past was buying into a succesful team and we could afford to take a chance on a kid from Bristol whilst also buying in a top quality player each year.
Our problem is we have fallen too far behind and nobody really seems to know what the answer is.

 Totally agree Dave. Buy a player who not only ha the poitential to become something, but who will run through a brick wall in order to get there. Players who scrap for the shirt, stay behind after training to do extra practice, don't f*ck about with their hair all the time etc etc.

Just going off what George has said in the transfer rumours thread. Dries Martin, the last available talented Belgian player. Why haven't we been actively in on the Belgian talent out there, why aren't we snapping up some of the cream in Germany, etc.

Tom Ince and Daniel Sturridge? I could of scouted them myself.

No credit to me. I see how it is hahah

No credit to me. I see how it is hahah

Haha, sorry, know you suggested him but George reminded me of something that was brought to my attention by a lad who works with me. Was actually the first time I was in Mick's pub The Alex - Belgium were playing and it was pointed out to me the side that they have got and I was surprised by it, quite a side on paper.

They are very talented and have a very good team - expect them to be in and around the Germans and Spanish in the next couple of years as they mature

Haha, sorry, know you suggested him but George reminded me of something that was brought to my attention by a lad who works with me. Was actually the first time I was in Mick's pub The Alex - Belgium were playing and it was pointed out to me the side that they have got and I was surprised by it, quite a side on paper.

Yeah that's the thing with Belgium. Incredibly talented national team on the individual level, but just can't seem to get it together as a unit. Think about it, their CBs are Vermaelen and Kompany. Fellaini in midfield. Hazard and Mertens as attackers, etc. They have good players.

Yeah that's the thing with Belgium. Incredibly talented national team on the individual level, but just can't seem to get it together as a unit. Think about it, their CBs are Vermaelen and Kompany. Fellaini in midfield. Hazard and Mertens as attackers, etc. They have good players.

Don't forget people like Witsel , Defour , Mirallis , De Bryne and Courtais.

They just need to be moulded together

would you trust BR with that sort of money

In fairness I wouldnt, not sure what that says about how i feel about him but i wouldnt trust him with that no way, ive no evidence he can make it work, besides the truth is if we had proper money to spend wed have proper money for a better manager.. everything is shaped towards austerity and budgets

Is it possible to win the league in this day and age id you don't spend an absolute shed load of money? Is it realistic to expect or hope that we can challenge in the league whilst buying players for 10-15 million pounds and not being able to compete for the really top talent available? I'm asking the questions honestly, not loading them up.

yeh sorry mick it hasnt been done before in the Pl even though Arsenal are experts ain what we are trying to achieve 10+ years ahead with a new stadium and cash reserves so we will never use this system to win the PL, across europe you had rafa doing it over 10 years ago with valencia prob the only real example of it ever being done.. dortmund argument invalid,ffp in the league,all clubs 50% owned and much less competition

Tom Ince and Daniel Sturridge? I could of scouted them myself.

Have to agree who are our top scouts currently, prob some goons from swansea and in kennys time?? We have overpaid for average players on this stupid moneyball system and now we are following some kind of swansea blueprint?? We havent had a find since rafa left although enrique has been superb value.

I think the transfer policy/ffp outlook is deeply flawed. The people on charge of the club henry/lerner/ayre are all out their depth in their roles. Our manager/coaching staff/scouting team is inexperienced/naive and  amateruish.

Unfortunately with that at the top how can we expect to perform better on the pitch..

i would have took a punt at jordan rhodes but what about glenn murray at crystal palace anyone no anything about him

Look at Josemi, Kromkamp and Arbeloa for example... 3 good right backs in good form and on the cusp... Only 1 adapted to the league.. Could longer scouting have reduced the risk? Stopeed us wasting 3 transfer fee's, 3 signing on fee's, 3 agents fees'...

To be fair it wasn't actually 3 transfer fees, Kromkamp was a straight swap for Josemi.

Is it possible to win the league in this day and age id you don't spend an absolute shed load of money? Is it realistic to expect or hope that we can challenge in the league whilst buying players for 10-15 million pounds and not being able to compete for the really top talent available? I'm asking the questions honestly, not loading them up.

I dont think it is nowadays no.

Reason being that the likes of City and Chelsea can turnover the squads overnight (in a football sense) whereas doing within strict budgets you are always adding bits here and there, i mentioned above that the manager should be working in the knowledge he is looking 2-3 transfers windows in front. Thats ideal but also as long as he gets to "get it right"..
In terms of the top top players you have, if you dont compete within a certain period of time, 2-3 years? Then they get itchy feet and want to go win things elsewhere.. Is Suarez going to give us longer than another 2 years if we arent challenging? So then if you lose them you are just starting the process again.
Thats not just limited to us, look at Arsenal's inability to hold onto players and they have CL football to offer.

Everyone holds Newcastle's transfer find up as something to aim for, they have done great but really where has it got them? One good season? This season having not added to them are struggling as they have little variety and teams have worked out their good players who came with that suprise aspect last year..

You have to continually evolve in football nowadays.. You stand still and you go backwards..

Our transfer business has been poor over the last 2-3 years in terms of big buys but more established "big buys" are generally not as much of a gamble as unknown lesser valued players.. The reason they are high value is normally because they have proved it over a long term

Thats where the Carrol deal stunk, he was high value but he hadnt proved it, meaning it was too high a risk

To be fair it wasn't actually 3 transfer fees, Kromkamp was a straight swap for Josemi.

You get my point though? I was just using those as the same positional players..

Still 3 signing on fees and agents fees etc

You get my point though? I was just using those as the same positional players..

Still 3 signing on fees and agents fees etc

Arbeloa is an interesting one.Never gets any credit but plays for Real madrid and Spain. Figure that one out.

Arbeloa is an interesting one.Never gets any credit but plays for Real madrid and Spain. Figure that one out.

I rated him, felt he did well once he settled, only moved on really in the end as Johnson came in, and that one was lead mainly as Pompy owed us money on Crouch.. Rafa wheeling and dealing as he had to do in the end

I rated him, felt he did well once he settled, only moved on really in the end as Johnson came in, and that one was lead mainly as Pompy owed us money on Crouch.. Rafa wheeling and dealing as he had to do in the end

he was and in fact still is the best goal celebrator in football ,he always manages to get in the heap no matter who scores and he is probably the best defending fullback.

I rated him, felt he did well once he settled, only moved on really in the end as Johnson came in, and that one was lead mainly as Pompy owed us money on Crouch.. Rafa wheeling and dealing as he had to do in the end

Arbeloa was man of the match in his first start when he marked Messi out the game in the Nou Camp. He was playing at left back then an all.

The reason he left was because he was homesick and wanted to move back to Spain, especially as his best mate (Xabi) was on the very verge of leaving. The scrap with Carra against West Brom probably didn't help either.

But I'd still rather have Arbeloa as our right back now. Saying that, I'd probably have him as our third best right back of this century behind Babbel and Finnan.

Thought this could go in here.

Latest table of how much each club paid to agents over the last year is out:

THE AGENT EXPENDITURE TABLE: 2012-13 AND 2011-12

Payments made by Barclays Premier League clubs to agents between October 2012 and September 2013:

1. Chelsea: £13,721,721

2. Manchester City: £11,179,817

3. Tottenham: £9,787,676

4. Liverpool: £9,400,973

5. Newcastle: £7,294,018

6. Arsenal: £5,485,961

7. Sunderland: £4,640,227

8. Manchester United: £4,317,690

9. West Ham: £4,169,134

10. Fulham: £3,790,115

11. Aston Villa: £3,358,628

12. Everton: £3,225,159

13. Stoke: £3,191,808

14. Norwich: £2,308,987

15. Cardiff: £2,225,582

16. West Brom: £2,211,054

17. Southampton: £2,184,412

18. Hull City: £1,825,718

19. Swansea: £1,484,878

20. Crystal Palace: £869,531


Payments made by each Premier League club to agents between October 2011 and September 2012:


1. Manchester City: £10,537,982

2. Liverpool: £8,600,444

3. Queens Park Rangers: £6,818,688

4. Tottenham: £6,595,905

5. Chelsea: £6,490,382

6. Arsenal: £5,580,873

7. West Ham: £4,436,992

8. Manchester United: £3,681,580

9. Newcastle: £3,485,503

10. Everton: £3,092,891

11. Aston villa: £2,730,539

12. Fulham: £2,581,208

13. Sunderland: £2,173,762

14. Reading: £2,167,833

15. Wigan: £1,974,305

16. Stoke: £1,717,266

17. West Brom: £1,341,301

18. Norwich: £1,248,725

19. Swansea: £1,100,845

20. Southampton: £646,106
 

Now I may be wrong but wasn't the general consensus when last year's figures came out that we should be getting our payments to agents down?

Not up.

Is it possible to win the league in this day and age id you don't spend an absolute shed load of money? Is it realistic to expect or hope that we can challenge in the league whilst buying players for 10-15 million pounds and not being able to compete for the really top talent available? I'm asking the questions honestly, not loading them up.

No, it isn't.

The clubs who spend the most on players and wages will always dominate the league. Arsenal struggled to compete for the title year after year, and strived for a TOp 4 finish. Which, credit to them, they always managed.

This summer they bid 340m for Suarez and pay £43m for Ozil. Big statement. Top of the league.

City have two 20m players for every position.

Chelsea have the likes of Oscar (£32m), Hazard (£30m), Mata (£25m), Willian (£30m) and Schurlle (£20m) all competing for two or three places.

We can't compete with that, which is why those clubs always finish above us, and always will

Think it was Si that broke Rodgers transfer dealings down in another thread and it was frightening to see how many he trusts and plays.

When you look at what has been spent and what has been paid to agents and then look at the situations of Borini (£12mil), Allen (£15mil) and now Sakho (£18mil), Aspas (£6mil) and Alberto (£7mil) can't get a game its frightening.

Then you look at the loan signings:

Sahin - brought in on loan, played out of position, dropped and sent packing in the next window - he'd be welcome about now I'd assume.

Moses - given game time out of position at the start of the season, looked pretty hopeless there and has looked as hopeless in his favoured position.

Cissokho - looked like a headless chicken and is now behind a 20 year old right back for a start at left back.

With all of the big spenders out there and our sell to buy policy well in effect its vitally important that we carry out our transfer business exceptionally well. Sturridge and Coutinho apart its been a bit of a disaster so far and that's worrying.

When you look at what has been spent and what has been paid to agents and then look at the situations of Borini (£12mil), Allen (£15mil) and now Sakho (£18mil), Aspas (£6mil) and Alberto (£7mil) can't get a game its frightening.

It is mate.

I'd much rather he stuck by these lads and played all of them rather than spend money on them which appears to be wasted at this moment in time.

He seems to have moved away from his total football philosophy to being more pragmatic which is a real shame because he saw us sneak a few wins and he has stuck to the old guard hoping we could fluke a few more wins without really convincing. This was always doomed to fail eventually. He needs to go back to his original philosophy about how the game should be played and build a base from there.
To tell you the truth I am pissed off at having to look at our team constantly outplayed by inferior players.

would you trust BR with that sort of money

Sorry  ... but No .

Do we actually have a policy as such or is it following the model of Hit & Hope?

Do we actually have a policy as such or is it following the model of Hit & Hope?

Seems like it at the moment.

So it looks like we really might be going for this Salah fella, reportedly for around 9m. He seems to be admired by some top clubs and his youtube videos are impressive but it's being said that Sterling would immediately go on loan to swansea if Salah came in. Now, why the hell would we do that with Sterling playing well and scoring goals? And would he be an improvement to the squad or just help to make up the numbers?

Blank cheque - throw enough money at guys and they will come even if the team is not in the CL/challenging for honours. City not long ago were in same boat as us, doing OK but outside CL places. But they threw cash at it, as Chavs had done before, and now, oodles of cash later, those clubs have arguably the strongest squads. The "No bucks, no Buck Rogers" theory.

Without bucks, its bloody hard. As mentioned in thread, need plan, evolve scouting system, uncover gems etc. The latter MUCH easier said than done.  That's why imo BR has done so well so far, in a short time (though accept we have a half season to go). Some signings haven't been great, but others have been really solid. And over time, hopefully he can bring enough quality in, it just won't happen overnight.
He also has the side playing good football, which is really important.
Problem too is keeping the really good guys during a squad 'strengthening period'. We can't be a selling club. That's why the CL is so important - we're kinda stuck in a 'chicken and egg' situation just at the moment, but BR is doing good so far.

I guess we need both. We need FSG to stump up and allow us but 2 or 3 players in the > 20million bracket over the next 12 months at least, at the same time as improving the process of identifying new talent. Piece a cake

So it looks like we really might be going for this Salah fella, reportedly for around 9m. He seems to be admired by some top clubs and his youtube videos are impressive but it's being said that Sterling would immediately go on loan to swansea if Salah came in. Now, why the hell would we do that with Sterling playing well and scoring goals? And would he be an improvement to the squad or just help to make up the numbers?

They've said there's no way in hell Sterling is going on loan but Salah is needed because Sterling has almost no goal threat. His only advantage is his pace which is why I see him as a squad player. Bring him on after 60 minutes when the opposition defenders legs are getting tired and he'll run them ragged. We really need to start moving on our current midfield to the bench and bringing in better players for the first team, allowing us to compete across a greater number of competitions and deal with injuries we pick up. Repeat and rinse as and when we're able to attract better quality players than we have. Move out the least talented, move the others to the bench. If we are going for Salah then this is an example of sensible transfer policy.

Think it was Si that broke Rodgers transfer dealings down in another thread and it was frightening to see how many he trusts and plays.

When you look at what has been spent and what has been paid to agents and then look at the situations of Borini (£12mil), Allen (£15mil) and now Sakho (£18mil), Aspas (£6mil) and Alberto (£7mil) can't get a game its frightening.

Then you look at the loan signings:

Sahin - brought in on loan, played out of position, dropped and sent packing in the next window - he'd be welcome about now I'd assume.

Moses - given game time out of position at the start of the season, looked pretty hopeless there and has looked as hopeless in his favoured position.

Cissokho - looked like a headless chicken and is now behind a 20 year old right back for a start at left back.

With all of the big spenders out there and our sell to buy policy well in effect its vitally important that we carry out our transfer business exceptionally well. Sturridge and Coutinho apart its been a bit of a disaster so far and that's worrying.

I see what you mean here, there have been a few dubious signings but you could give BR a bit more credit. Mignolet, Sakho, Coutinho and Sturridge could very much be the spine of our team in the coming years. All of them have played exceptionally well since signing for Liverpool. Toure on a free transfer was a great piece of business, he is only kept out the team because Skrtel and Sakho have been playing so well. Yeah he doesn't seem to trust Allen and I think was only playing him due to a lack of options. But I still believe that he will have an important role in the team. Aspas he shouldn't have signed in the first place but still you could say that he is allowing these players (Aspas and Alberto) to adapt to the PL. Cissokho and Moses realistically were only brought in for cover.

The one thing you can say about players like Alberto, Borini, and Allen is that they are still young and have a lot of time to improve. Saying that, Rodgers needs to focus on bringing in first team players this window not 'one for the future, up and coming, next season squad players'.

Blank cheque - throw enough money at guys and they will come even if the team is not in the CL/challenging for honours. City not long ago were in same boat as us, doing OK but outside CL places. But they threw cash at it, as Chavs had done before, and now, oodles of cash later, those clubs have arguably the strongest squads. The "No bucks, no Buck Rogers" theory.

Without bucks, its bloody hard. As mentioned in thread, need plan, evolve scouting system, uncover gems etc. The latter MUCH easier said than done.  That's why imo BR has done so well so far, in a short time (though accept we have a half season to go). Some signings haven't been great, but others have been really solid. And over time, hopefully he can bring enough quality in, it just won't happen overnight.
He also has the side playing good football, which is really important.
Problem too is keeping the really good guys during a squad 'strengthening period'. We can't be a selling club. That's why the CL is so important - we're kinda stuck in a 'chicken and egg' situation just at the moment, but BR is doing good so far.

I guess we need both. We need FSG to stump up and allow us but 2 or 3 players in the > 20million bracket over the next 12 months at least, at the same time as improving the process of identifying new talent. Piece a cake

FSG have stated on more than one occasion that they will not throw loadsa money at Brendan, the idea of them paying 20m for one player takes some believing, 2 or 3 at 20m is beyond the bounds.
BR is manager of LFC because he can pull rabbits out of hats, unfortunately the owners depend on the manager's wizardry to keep the club financially viable, nothing in that statement suggests winning trophies is part of the deal.

FSG have stated on more than one occasion that they will not throw loadsa money at Brendan, the idea of them paying 20m for one player takes some believing, 2 or 3 at 20m is beyond the bounds.
BR is manager of LFC because he can pull rabbits out of hats, unfortunately the owners depend on the manager's wizardry to keep the club financially viable, nothing in that statement suggests winning trophies is part of the deal.

To quote Mr Loaf, even two outa three wouldn't be bad. And 20mill ain't even ridiculous money by a long way - if we can't get some guys in this (or higher) bracket (and btw, BR could argue if he gets the right 20mill guy, he might be worth 40mill in 2 years) I can't realistically see how we'll make the step ups we need to make.
Sahko cost a fair chunk of change for a defender, so I reckon they can be convinced. If BR can not just make a good argument, but show that he is heading in the right direction in the PL (and possibly Cup too), I reckon he'll be able to make one, maybe two (maybe even 3 ?) *big* signings this year.
Or maybe the Christmas splurge season has rotted my brain and this is pie in the sky (certainly rotted the old stomach).

I can't see FSG going back on their transfer strategy, they believe they can turn our fortunes around without spending big money (they also believe in Santa, Fairys and the Lough Ness monster). They don't seem to me to be the type of guys to admit their strategy for success in Baseball doesn't translate to football.

Whilst i'd agree that Brendan's dealings are hit and miss its interesting that providing we get badu and salah (or a physical midfielder and a winger) in January we may need to do very little business in the summer apart from perhaps keep Assaidi and suso

Mignolet, jones
Johnson,Kelly
Flanagan,Enrique
Agger,sakho,skrtel,Ilori, toure
Lucas,badu/m'villa, Allen, suso, Henderson, coutinho, Alberto, Gerrard
Sterling, salah
Assaidi, ibe
Suarez, Sturridge , aspas

Plus selling Coates, borini, Reina and wisdom would allow further strengthening if required. Whilst left wing looks weak salah or sterling could potentially be an inverted winger.

So somehow the squad is close to being balanced and needs minor tweaks only despite the hit and miss approach. Perhaps he has done better than we think

I can't see FSG going back on their transfer strategy, they believe they can turn our fortunes around without spending big money (they also believe in Santa, Fairys and the Lough Ness monster). They don't seem to me to be the type of guys to admit their strategy for success in Baseball doesn't translate to football.

Yea, maybe so. Also depends what constitutes *big* money. 20mill? 30mill? 40mill? 60mill etc.  We were in for Costa, and Willian, both in the 25-30mill range I think, and looked like we were serious (though guess can't be sure they'd have actually shelled out).  Have they said they won't spend above a certain figure?

Yea, maybe so. Also depends what constitutes *big* money. 20mill? 30mill? 40mill? 60mill etc.  We were in for Costa, and Willian, both in the 25-30mill range I think, and looked like we were serious (though guess can't be sure they'd have actually shelled out).  Have they said they won't spend above a certain figure?

Personally, I would consider anything over 30 million as "Big" money.
20 million is what I would consider to be a reasonable amount to spend on individual players capable of making an instant impact, and help a team challenge for the title.
Its unreasonable to expect a manager to compete for the title on a regular basis if he has to take a gamble on unknown quantities like Aspas and Alberto.

The only "transfer policy" that works is one in which you have almost unlimited funds to pay big fees and huge wages.

The hilarious pontificating a few years ago when FSG came in about "Moneyball" strategies still makes me chuckle. You have a strategy that fits your budget.

If your budget isn't big enough and you buy players with "sell on value" you may well come out in front from a cash-flow POV, but you won't F***ing win anything.

United splashed out £24m on Van Persie. Not to make any money on him, but to win the title. Which he did.

It doesn't matter what our strategy is - without new, mega-rich owners who can bankroll a huge squad of expensive players on large wages, we won't win the title, and the clubs that do, will.

We can only afford a few "outlier" players like Gerrard, Suarez, Johnson on massive wages, and hope that the likes of Sturridge, Coutinho, Sterling et al can step up. Because it doesn't matter how much you spend, every signing is a risk, and not every signing works out; no player can maintain form and fitness all season.

Which is why you need lots of quality in the squad. City have Aguero, Dzeko, Jovetic and Negredo for two places. They all cost upwards of £25m. They have midfield support from any three of Silva, Toure, Fernandinho, Garcia, Navas, Nasri and Milner. That's c.£160m worth of fees.

Chelsea have the most amazing array of attacking talent in Hazard, Willian, Oscar, Mata, Schurrle. All cost between 20 and £30m.

Transfer strategies are worthless. It's all about money if you want to win the title.

Do we actually have a policy as such or is it following the model of Hit & Hope?

Every transfer is "hit and hope".

It's just that when you buy three players for £5-10 each, and three players for £20-30m each, your chances of "hit" increases.

Every transfer is "hit and hope".

It's just that when you buy three players for £5-10 each, and three players for £20-30m each, your chances of "hit" increases.

Really??  Roman doesn't agree 

Roman doesn't agree

I don't know about that 'debs: I know he might be hard to please but his £20m-£30m players have brought him the European, Europa and FA Cups in the last two years alone.

All the systems/formations/football philosophies in the world work better with quality players. That quality, more often than not, costs and teams with quality players win titles and trophies. Roman knows this. 

I don't know about that 'debs: I know he might be hard to please but his £20m-£30m players have brought him the European, Europa and FA Cups in the last two years alone.

All the systems/formations/football philosophies in the world work better with quality players. That quality, more often than not, costs and teams with quality players win titles and trophies. Roman knows this. 

I was thinking more in terms of judas mate and also not all those 'young' players @ £20m plus are featuring for them, some are still out on loan.  £90m worth of players are out on loan from the chavs, that's almost the value of our starting 11 

Would be unbelievable for us to one day be in that position but it's highly unlikely.

I only remember Roman's £50m miss. We sold well on that deal.

I only remember Roman's £50m miss. We sold well on that deal.

 

The only "transfer policy" that works is one in which you have almost unlimited funds to pay big fees and huge wages.

The hilarious pontificating a few years ago when FSG came in about "Moneyball" strategies still makes me chuckle. You have a strategy that fits your budget.

If your budget isn't big enough and you buy players with "sell on value" you may well come out in front from a cash-flow POV, but you won't f**king win anything.

United splashed out £24m on Van Persie. Not to make any money on him, but to win the title. Which he did.

It doesn't matter what our strategy is - without new, mega-rich owners who can bankroll a huge squad of expensive players on large wages, we won't win the title, and the clubs that do, will.

We can only afford a few "outlier" players like Gerrard, Suarez, Johnson on massive wages, and hope that the likes of Sturridge, Coutinho, Sterling et al can step up. Because it doesn't matter how much you spend, every signing is a risk, and not every signing works out; no player can maintain form and fitness all season.

Which is why you need lots of quality in the squad. City have Aguero, Dzeko, Jovetic and Negredo for two places. They all cost upwards of £25m. They have midfield support from any three of Silva, Toure, Fernandinho, Garcia, Navas, Nasri and Milner. That's c.£160m worth of fees.

Chelsea have the most amazing array of attacking talent in Hazard, Willian, Oscar, Mata, Schurrle. All cost between 20 and £30m.

Transfer strategies are worthless. It's all about money if you want to win the title.

Spending that money does give you a chance but it doesn't guarantee anything. Dortmund won the Bundesliga two years in a row despite Bayern spending a ton on players.
Atletico is currently ahead of Madrid and even on points with Barcelona despite both of those clubs spending huge amounts every year.
Juve has won two straight Serie A titles without breaking the bank.
The idea that you cannot win without spending ridiculous amounts is simply false.

The idea that you cannot win without spending ridiculous amounts is simply false.

And yet the evidence of the previous winners of the Premier League suggests the complete opposite. Forget Italy, Germany, Spain wherever. Just look at our league asnd show me the club who haven't spent a fortune that have been champions. I can't think of any since Arsenal and of course that was in a very different climate. 

The idea that you cannot win without spending ridiculous amounts is simply false

The idea that you can win without spending ridiculous amounts if the others are spending ridiculous amounts is false.

The only "transfer policy" that works is one in which you have almost unlimited funds to pay big fees and huge wages.

The hilarious pontificating a few years ago when FSG came in about "Moneyball" strategies still makes me chuckle. You have a strategy that fits your budget.

If your budget isn't big enough and you buy players with "sell on value" you may well come out in front from a cash-flow POV, but you won't f**king win anything.

United splashed out £24m on Van Persie. Not to make any money on him, but to win the title. Which he did.

It doesn't matter what our strategy is - without new, mega-rich owners who can bankroll a huge squad of expensive players on large wages, we won't win the title, and the clubs that do, will.

We can only afford a few "outlier" players like Gerrard, Suarez, Johnson on massive wages, and hope that the likes of Sturridge, Coutinho, Sterling et al can step up. Because it doesn't matter how much you spend, every signing is a risk, and not every signing works out; no player can maintain form and fitness all season.

Which is why you need lots of quality in the squad. City have Aguero, Dzeko, Jovetic and Negredo for two places. They all cost upwards of £25m. They have midfield support from any three of Silva, Toure, Fernandinho, Garcia, Navas, Nasri and Milner. That's c.£160m worth of fees.

Chelsea have the most amazing array of attacking talent in Hazard, Willian, Oscar, Mata, Schurrle. All cost between 20 and £30m.

Transfer strategies are worthless. It's all about money if you want to win the title.

What about Arsenal? Yeah, okay they spent £40 odd million on Ozil, but the rest of the squad is largely made up of transfers that would be within the budget of LFC.

Yes, they might not win the league, but they are challengers and do look like a club that can win the league. To be honest, I would be happy with a couple of consistent years making the top four and then a challenge for the title - it's pretty difficult to go from 7th to 1st in one swoop.

Realistically, we are not a title challenging team - we are a top four challenging team and the transfers at the moment will dictate that position until we are ready. We cannot afford to blow £40 million on one player who isn't even worth it - you want us to get into financial difficulties again? We don't exactly have a bottomless pit of money. A substantial transfer fund is what's needed, but a massive one could be reckless. Does anyone think FSG will provide substantial funds? This is where I have concerns - substantial would be £50-60 million, not massive like Man City but enough to do a good job. I'm not sure if FSG would give us that at the moment.

Rodgers said in his first press conference he would outsmart rather than outbid other teams - proof of Coutinho and Sturridge backing up the managers words. But for every Countinho, we have a Moses and for every Sturridge we have a Borini. This is the issue I have with FSG - I may be wrong, but I feel they expect Rodgers to wave a magic wand and make a bargain out of every player. Unless Football Manager Genie Scout existed in real life, these deals more often than not are not going to pull off whatever the manager.

And yet the evidence of the previous winners of the Premier League suggests the complete opposite. Forget Italy, Germany, Spain wherever. Just look at our league asnd show me the club who haven't spent a fortune that have been champions. I can't think of any since Arsenal and of course that was in a very different climate. 

Forget about some of the wealthiest clubs in the world? Recent titles have been won by United, City, and Chelsea. United have spent a decent amount but not close to that of Chelsea abd City. They payed 30m roughly for van Persie but we have shown that we are willing to spend just as much under FSG. Not only that but they did a lot of their big spending from the Ronaldo money.

Forget about some of the wealthiest clubs in the world? Recent titles have been won by United, City, and Chelsea. United have spent a decent amount but not close to that of Chelsea abd City. They payed 30m roughly for van Persie but we have shown that we are willing to spend just as much under FSG. Not only that but they did a lot of their big spending from the Ronaldo money.

Completely disagree on United, try and tell me they weren't spending huge amounts of money before the Ronaldo deal, in fact they have spent less since that deal given the change in their financial circumstances.

Just a few of the top of my head (approx) Rooney £30million, Ferdinand £30 million, Veron £27 million, Carrick £20 million, Berbatov £30 million, 30 million combined for Nani and Anderson, Van Nistelroy £20 million not to mention the 20 million they spunked on De Gea and the 24 million they spent on 30 year old ,Van Persie.

Most of those deals were pre Ronaldo so you can't pretend united haven't been spending massive amounts of money. 30 million for a centre-half was unheard of back then and the deals for Rooney, Veron and Berbatov were all huge at the time.

Arsenal are the only team to win the Premier League without spending a fortune and ill hasten to add that they have not been able to do it since the money arrived at City and Chelsea.