Midfield - The key to football, why are we getting it wrong?

Midfield

The key to winning or losing any game of football

We can all talk about defensive mistakes, or defenders not looking as good as before or strikers missing chances but for me the game is won and lost in midfield, always has been always will be..

The spine is key to any game but if you dont have a strong midfield you wont win many games, look across history,

Ours..

Under Rafa we sang songs about the best midfield in the world, we had Macherano, Gerrard and Alonso, three players that had all the defensive qualities to protect the back 4 but all the creativity to provide the amunition to win games.. And they could go head to head in a battle if required..

In the past we have had the likes of Lee, Mcdermott, Souness, McMahon, Molby, Smith, Hughes, Wark, Hamman etc etc... With those types we dominated games, they had the lot, its no suprise if i threw the likes of Diao, Biscan, Hutchinson at you you wouldnt have as many favourable memories..

They get it, they create, they protect... They are the fulcrum of any good side... Think Red Star Belgrade in 91 think Savicevic pulling the strings, think Milan of the ilk we played in 05/07 and think of Pirlo and Kaka.. Think of that Golacticos era, would they be the same without Makalele? Even Utd 99, would they have even got to the final without Keane against Juve in the semi..

What im saying is that currently right now our midfield doesnt look strong enough, doesnt look creative enough, is getting bypassed too easily.. We look a soft touch in there, look like we can be bullied, dont have enough hard men to stand up when we are getting overun, to grab the game and say no this is my game, lets win the f**ker..
Now that could be tactics as well, but look at the midfield central options right now..

Lucas.. Love the lad, coming back from a long term injury though, will take time to get back to his best

An ageing Stevie, still lots to offer for me, but wont dictate like he used to do, needs someone to do his running to an extent and need in my opinion to concentrate on doing his work in the attacking third

Shelvey, i do rate him but to be honest doesnt look Liverpool quality on this season

Henderson, as rotation i think a good option, but a bit pretty and well i wouldnt be scared of the lad

Allen, same as Hendo really.. Both can do the same job, needs a tough nut with him

Sahin, lightweight in the league, too much like the two above


They are all a bit too nice, no one in there really to grab the game by the scruff of the neck and drive us on.. We need to become harder to beat and that is tactics and players for me.
Just dont see it in this midfield group..

Even go back to the 90s, Redknapp needed Ince to become a better pair.. A fighter, stood up to the oposition

Calling Sahin is a light weight is comical. He was played out of position and still scored goals and assisted them. He was known as the opposite of light weight in Germany.

Calling Sahin is a light weight is comical. He was played out of position and still scored goals and assisted them. He was known as the opposite of light weight in Germany.

Judging on what i have seen here, in this league, a renowned tough league he has looked lightweight.

The lad had done nothing to justify the hype, and obviously is showing nothing in training to force his way in. Either that or his heart isnt in it, either way isnt justifying the hype

Our midfield is out of balance in both experience and quality. Lucas has played himself into that postion but Stevie has always been a difficult choice as his postional quality has always been open to debate,Wide We have a very talented and willing lad in Sterling who has shown fantastic development in his ability to read the game and cover his full back I am completely in awe of this lad.
Allen has yet to impress me so basically we have Lucas and Sterling.Gerrard needs to move outwide or further up and on the left Downing has yet to inspire.
We need to go back to basics and stop letting goals in the mdfield need to man up and protect the back four as well as start both creating and scoring goals they fail on both counts so far.

Judging on what i have seen here, in this league, a renowned tough league he has looked lightweight.

The lad had done nothing to justify the hype, and obviously is showing nothing in training to force his way in. Either that or his heart isnt in it, either way isnt justifying the hype

I really question loan signings at a club like Liverpool.Is that what we need and do these lads really want the RED shirt.

I really question loan signings at a club like Liverpool.Is that what we need and do these lads really want the RED shirt.

Doubt putting on the Red shirt means what is used to Walton, in the end most just want to get paid and I suppose you try and get the quality as well as the desire (Luis) but it's easier said then done.

I have no doubt that when Charlie Adam put on the shirt and went out on the pitch he really wanted that RED shirt, but the quality was not there...balancing act.

We need a powerful mobile midfielder to play in there with Lucas,we are far to easy to play through and away from home especially we need someone who can compete physically in the air and in the tackle and then we can play our football.
If you don't win the midfield you are gonna struggle massively to win games.

Doubt putting on the Red shirt means what is used to Walton, in the end most just want to get paid and I suppose you try and get the quality as well as the desire (Luis) but it's easier said then done.

I have no doubt that when Charlie Adam put on the shirt and went out on the pitch he really wanted that RED shirt, but the quality was not there...balancing act.

We shouldnt have to rely on loan signings at this club we should have sufficient finance and pull to get the right players.

physical presence is needed cattermole was going to sign ideal a nasty piece of work who gets stuck in bellamy had it we really need to have that sort of player, steve mcmahon  did it i know theres players out there walters at stoke aswell i know ill probably get crucified for saying these names but its needed imho

We shouldnt have to rely on loan signings at this club we should have sufficient finance and pull to get the right players.

I don't disagree, I just don't think putting on a Liverpool shirt means what it used to for this generation of players...not just us of course but any of the clubs. It's all about money now, not desire or the club/city.

Yeah, I love Lucas but I miss Masch. I've always been a fan of powerful, quick DMs, like Makelele, or Essien in his prime. Someone that not only gets the ball back, but that is able to bulldoze his way through other midfielders by sheer force of will. Someone to carry the team's standard in midfield. I think Gerrard use to play with that spirit when he was younger, but now he's not that player anymore...

 In modern football, the role of the central midfielder has changed. Equally, the importance of central midfielders while still being there, is there for a different reason. Midfielders who "grab the game by the scruff of the neck" don't exist anymore, not in the physical Sounness type of mould anyway, simply because their mode of playing is outlawed. Central midfielders these days are either chipper inners in terms of being box to box and goal creating/getting, or defensive midfielders out and out. They are expected to keep the ball ticking over, get or make goals. Increasingly though it's attackers and defenders who win you games, NOT central midfielders. Midfielders who score vast numbers of goals Gerrard/Lampard style aren't really around anymore, these days you keep the ball as a prioroty. Attacking midfielders keep it and give it to attackers who score, defensive midfielders stop the opposition from doing the same, but all through the team distribution is king.

Look at the teams at the top of the league. The Mancs haven't really got a midfielder I would go out of my way to get. Carrick sits for them (and crucially, distributes it very well too) while Cleverley does a bit of chipping in in both boxes. While he "chips in" though, he doesn't score or create lots of goals and is a country mile behind say Gerrard as a footballer. Yaya Toure is the exception to any rule and the best central midfielder in the Premiership, but Barry again is an unspectacular but relatively effective sitter. For Chelsea Mikkel or Luis fill in the sitting role, and while Mata is an excellent player and chips in with goals, I would argue he is almost a forward really. For wide midfielders, read wingers who defend. The best example of it in the Premiership and the best at what he does is Valencia at Man Utd. Good and powerful going forwards or backwards, he is an absolute key player for them. We have nobody at the club in the same class I'm afraid.

In the big teams, big players win you matches and quite simply we haven't got enough of them as of now. Who wins the Mancs their games aside from refs? Van Persie and Rooney at one end, Ferdinand and Evans/Vidic at the other. For us we have Suarez at the attacking end who is World class, but NO alternative whatsoever, and two centre halves who have been awful in each of the last few matches where we have come up against a big bully centre forward. THAT is why we don't win enough matches, not because of any midfield disfunctionality.

I would also point out though that IMHO Lucas is a passenger since he came back. He is a mile away from being mobile enough to be effective in the defensive sense right now, and paticularly from a pace point of view he is really labouring. His distribution is actually pretty good, but ultimately he is there to make it harder for the opposition to score goals, and he is being singularly ineffective at that.

your right about yaya toure outstanding player there must be other players like him around he would make any team tick big b***ard aswell

Lucas needs time but what is the alternative Allen hasn't set the world on fire has he.All in all in the cold light of day we look pretty lightweight as a squad ....thanks FSG.

 Another way of looking at our "midfield problems", is to imagine if for example Van Persie played for us rather than Man Utd. Say we played him instead of Downing against Stoke, with exactly the same players in and around him. Would it have made a difference to us? Of course it would, in an attacking sense our play would have been revolutionalised. Similarly, stick Ferdinand and/or Vidic in for our centre halves and there is no way we would have been bullied as we were. I'm not saying our midfield is perfect in any sense, but it's not the main route cause of our problems in my opinion.

the lack of tactical nouse is the main problem, real madrid have a talent attacking team watch them against barcelona they play like the chavs, we have been sussed by every manager now press liverpool higfh they will try pass it out even if the lose it everytime

Another way of looking at our "midfield problems", is to imagine if for example Van Persie played for us rather than Man Utd. Say we played him instead of Downing against Stoke, with exactly the same players in and around him. Would it have made a difference to us? Of course it would, in an attacking sense our play would have been revolutionalised. Similarly, stick Ferdinand and/or Vidic in for our centre halves and there is no way we would have been bullied as we were. I'm not saying our midfield is perfect in any sense, but it's not the main route cause of our problems in my opinion.

back to basics mick defenders HAVE to defend Midfielders HAVE to be able to tackle and pass a ball as well as knock one in now and again and strikers score goals thats how simple football is.

Lucas needs time but what is the alternative Allen hasn't set the world on fire has he.All in all in the cold light of day we look pretty lightweight as a squad ....thanks FSG.

 Lucas does need time mate, but we don't have it and until he gets fit he shouldn't be in the team in my opinion. Allen I think despite people not really taking to him is better in the role than Lucas is right now, and if it was a choice between the two I'd pick the Welshman with no hesitation. Fortunately however it isn't necessarily a choice between the two and contrary to what pretty much the whole of the forum thinks, I'd play our captain in there. Unlike Lucas Stevie is very effective defensively, has the pace and the power to make the challenges when we are under pressure, is good in the air and can also pass it to all corners. Is he better in the roile than Michael Carrick, than Gareth Barry and John Obi Mikkel? Of course he is, and we can't for much longer keep on the one hand slagging him off at every turn and then expecting him to score 20 goals a season from midfield/off the striker.

 Stevie is our best midfielder by a zillion miles, and as such he should play in midfield. If he had been playing the defensive role against Stoke, IMHO we would have been far harder to beat.   

back to basics mick defenders HAVE to defend Midfielders HAVE to be able to tackle and pass a ball as well as knock one in now and again and strikers score goals thats how simple football is.

 Absolutely right mate and at the big teams, that's exactly what happens. At Man Utd, the front players score the goals particularly when they need them, the centre halves stop them. Same at Man City. I know I'll get slagged off for saying this as well, but if we want an out and out attacking midfielder who will score/create goals, we could do worse than get fat Frank. We won't do that of course (and perhaps nor should we), but those who talk of a "Gary Mac" type figure bringing experience and quality to the team ought to think before they type. Would fat Frank get in our team as of today? For me he'd walk into it with bells on. 

Lucas does need time mate, but we don't have it and until he gets fit he shouldn't be in the team in my opinion. Allen I think despite people not really taking to him is better in the role than Lucas is right now, and if it was a choice between the two I'd pick the Welshman with no hesitation. Fortunately however it isn't necessarily a choice between the two and contrary to what pretty much the whole of the forum thinks, I'd play our captain in there. Unlike Lucas Stevie is very effective defensively, has the pace and the power to make the challenges when we are under pressure, is good in the air and can also pass it to all corners. Is he better in the roile than Michael Carrick, than Gareth Barry and John Obi Mikkel? Of course he is, and we can't for much longer keep on the one hand slagging him off at every turn and then expecting him to score 20 goals a season from midfield/off the striker.

 Stevie is our best midfielder by a zillion miles, and as such he should play in midfield. If he had been playing the defensive role against Stoke, IMHO we would have been far harder to beat.   

successive managers have all been reluctant to keep Stevie pegged back in a defensive role becuase his natural instinct is to go forward and he leaves holes  when he does this.
I dont believe however that we are getting anything like the best out of him at present.

Absolutely right mate and at the big teams, that's exactly what happens. At Man Utd, the front players score the goals particularly when they need them, the centre halves stop them. Same at Man City. I know I'll get slagged off for saying this as well, but if we want an out and out attacking midfielder who will score/create goals, we could do worse than get fat Frank. We won't do that of course (and perhaps nor should we), but those who talk of a "Gary Mac" type figure bringing experience and quality to the team ought to think before they type. Would fat Frank get in our team as of today? For me he'd walk into it with bells on. 

But what options do we really have can beggars be choosers?.
I dont know Frank Lampard as a person but just look at his record and try to pull it apart the lad is bullet proof.

fat frank proven but we couldnt afford him, what about a cheeky bid for nolan at west ham

successive managers have all been reluctant to keep Stevie pegged back in a defensive role becuase his natural instinct is to go forward and he leaves holes  when he does this.
I dont believe however that we are getting anything like the best out of him at present.

 I don't think it's because he "leaves holes" mate, I think that's an urban myth which has grown from an interview Rafa gave. The reason successive managers haven't played him there is because they want him to score goals and bail the team out of the sh!te every week at the other end. My argument is that Gerrard won't be able to bail the team out of the sh!te in the attacking sense as often any more, so we might as well get him to do it in the defensive sense. The change is inevitable, we may as well make it now since we have nobody else who is the same class who can perform the role.

fat frank proven but we couldnt afford him, what about a cheeky bid for nolan at west ham

 You're a wind-up fella who is about as effective at winding people up as Paul Konchesky was at left back. Everyone just ignores you, who do you really support?

Nolan 5 years ago would have still been to slow nice thought but really?

im not on a wind up im serious a attacking midfielder who scores goals and gets stuck in who would you prefare shelvey/cole or nolan

I don't think it's because he "leaves holes" mate, I think that's an urban myth which has grown from an interview Rafa gave. The reason successive managers haven't played him there is because they want him to score goals and bail the team out of the sh!te every week at the other end. My argument is that Gerrard won't be able to bail the team out of the sh!te in the attacking sense as often any more, so we might as well get him to do it in the defensive sense. The change is inevitable, we may as well make it now since we have nobody else who is the same class who can perform the role.

just remember all those back passes mate gives me shudders.Look the lad can play anywhere for me as long as he is up for it and I suspect at present he isnt enjoying his football.

Doubt putting on the Red shirt means what is used to Walton, in the end most just want to get paid and I suppose you try and get the quality as well as the desire (Luis) but it's easier said then done.

I have no doubt that when Charlie Adam put on the shirt and went out on the pitch he really wanted that RED shirt, but the quality was not there...balancing act.

maybe thats the problem.it doesnt looklike we have a queue of people willing to buy into the FSG ~Brendan future.

we have to be realistic we aint getting top notch but getting fighters will help what about the song a team of carras might be on the decline but he wants to win, and he gives out bollockings, thats what we need someone who doesnt give a sh*t about the egos we have

I'm alright with our midfield, defensively speaking. I don't think we need a player like Makelele. The only thing we could do with is a bit more height in that department, as I like the idea of defensive midfielders operating as central defenders on occasions during a game, but other than that we're fine in that department. After all, Makelele and height don't belong in the same sentence.

Lucas and Allen are great at recovering possession, each with their own way. I don't think the fact we don't have a Keane or a Tiote fouling anything that moves - something that is weirdly appreciated, apparently - means we're poor in that area. We have two good intelligent players in Lucas and Allen who are equally good at keeping and recovering the ball. Obviously a bit more depth never hurts, but I think we're looking at the wrong area to explain our flaws if we're pointing to defensive midfield.

Leadership is something that we do lack at the moment, but as much as we love the idea of having a guy in midfield shouting around and pointing the direction (the cliché of a "midfield general"), we don't necessarily need more leadership in that area of the pitch. It's a good thing to have anywhere, not particularly a problem of midfield but the squad as a whole IMO.

In terms of creativity, I believe Sahin can offer a hell lot more to us. He needs more time and sometimes I find it difficult to understand what Rodgers is trying to do with him. However, I think we're in desperate need for a proper attacking midfielder. Not the clumsy Shelvey nor the decadent Gerrard, but someone else. I feel stronger about this every week, and along with strikers, it's the position we most badly need a new player.

By the way, I disagree about Allen and Henderson being on the same level, or even offering the same to the team. Allen is better than Henderson at pretty much everything in central midfield - better passer, greater ball control and it's nearly unfair to compare them defensively.

I've said already this season that I doubt our central midfielders will score 18 Premiership goals between them.

Halfway through the season and they've scored 5 between them (in 77 appearances) - Stevie 4, Sahin 1. Henderson, Shelvey, Allen and Lucas haven't netted a League goal this year, which is a F***ing disgrace as far as I'm concerned.

Until our midfield start influencing the game in both halves, we will constantly be fu**ed. They don't get back quick enough, they don't follow the runners of the opposition from their midfield and there's no pace so teams can easily walk through us. At the other end they don't score (enough), they don't play (enough) clever passes through the middle to open up opposition defences, it's all in front of the defence hoping for something to happen and they don't get ahead of Suarez enough. There's no runners into the box to give us a few options, there's never anybody waiting on the edge of the box.

It just seems like our central midfield is stuck thirty yards from either goal and aren't allowed to move.

Sahin isn't lightweight at all. He's just slow. Very very slow. But his tackling is actually excellent, and he was averaging like 5 or 6 per game in the Europa League where he was playing deeper. Give him a consistent run of games playing as a deep-lying playmaker, and you'll see his qualities and his passing range, which is also very good.

Sahin isn't lightweight at all. He's just slow. Very very slow. But his tackling is actually excellent, and he was averaging like 5 or 6 per game in the Europa League where he was playing deeper.

Lightweight shouldn't just be taken as "he doesn't rattle into tackles"

But then you also suggest the only place he tackles in the Europa League

Go figure

Lightweight shouldn't just be taken as "he doesn't rattle into tackles"

But then you also suggest the only place he tackles in the Europa League

Go figure

Sahin isn't lightweight at all. He's just slow. Very very slow. But his tackling is actually excellent, and he was averaging like 5 or 6 per game in the Europa League where he was playing deeper. Give him a consistent run of games playing as a deep-lying playmaker, and you'll see his qualities and his passing range, which is also very good.

I think one of our current problems in midfield is that we are really playing with three in midfield, with the two wider men playing further up the pitch.  When these wide men are deeper we have no problems, but a lot of the time the three (which often becomes two or even one when we are attacking) is more stretched leaving plenty of space for teams to get through us.

A lot of the players mentioned at the start of the thread played in a fairly rigid 4-4-2, where we were able to defend across the pitch, and so not allowing as much space for the opposition.

Allan will come good.
I have no concerns over him.
Same as with Lucas.
Give him time to get back to physical and mental sharpness and we have the foundation of a great pairing.
Do agree though that the issue is who plays the centre role with license to push up and join the attack.

It's a role that Gerrard should really be playing and why he hasn't been put there consistently and why he hasn't been performing at a better standard all season is the mystery.

                   Lucas
         Gerrard
                       Eriksen

The way I see it, Our midfield are playing to much as individuals, all doing at any one time what they think is the best option. As we all know, what you see while playing, is a totaly different picture, than what you see from the touchline. Apart from being lightweight, what we seriously lack is a mid field general. An organiser who can tell players to reign in, cover left, cover right, push on, drop back, or whatever. A dominant  vocal organiser who scares the sh*te out of the oposition, and who can tackle and rough it with the best. Gerrard is a leader by example, (although not a very good one so far this season) we need a leader who can organise. We seem to get too many players forward, but not enough in the box when we attack, and then are found chasing back behind the oposition attacks with our back 4, having become a back 2, totally exposed. Our attacks don't seem to be direct enough, too many passes allow the defenders to get back and crowd us out, the mid field move up to offer options, and we get caught on the break. Far to often, our fullbacks are further forward than the wide mid players, who then often drift inside and leave the flanks vulnerable to counters.  You don't play with wing backs unless the wide midfield players cover their runs. You can't have all four wide players advancing or the 2 C MID players have to cover the whole width of the park. I always thought the principal of playing wing backs was that you had 3 CB to cover their forays forward, and three in the CM area with 2 up top. We dont seem to play a solid strategy of any of these tactics, but a mix up of everything. We need to find another Souness to sit in the middle of the park, or change tactics !

I think at this moment we have a strong middle but when you use players in there that are not quite ready you will get results like we have had, Shelvey should be used from the bench along with Suso and Sterling for now,where all three will be much better suited.

Sahin for some reason is not being given the chance from his favoured position and yet two years ago in Germany he was player of the season from the centre,if Rogers used what we have correctly there is no reason that our midfield could not compete with anyone, again it comes down to Rogers to use the players in the right way, I think the guy just hasn't shown the intelligence to do that, he talks the talk but he can't walk the walk.

I for one think he should get this season and the next one (at least up till Christmas 2014, he may come good yet it's the unanswered question as of yet and only time will tell us if he is given two more windows to buy, then we shall have a much better idea if he can step up to the mark and get his team playing the way he keeps talking about playing.

By then, we shall have a good idea of how he works, mind you if we do that there is always the chance he could take us backwards but I think that we have to take that chance or we shall never know if he can walk the walk,

Ayre and Co. sacked Rafa in 2010 and Ayre has done his best to keep Rafa out, worse mistake anyone as made at this club since we sold our club to the Devil in 2007, Ayre has got to go, last link to H&G and although I am not into Stars and such his link makes me feel he brings bad vibes down on the club because his link runs with all the bad things that have happened to this club, the guy is part of all the trouble we have had, he must go.

A bit tired to post anything really meaningful but does anyone think Jay could have had a part to play during Lucas injury lay off?

I've always thought Spearing time be a real solid player with gold ability on the ball and sitting with Allen and Gerrard ahead might have been an option.

Sahin for some reason is not being given the chance from his favoured position and yet two years ago in Germany he was player of the season from the centre,if Rogers used what we have correctly there is no reason that our midfield could not compete with anyone

Bingo.

If we could have Masch, Alonso and Aguero, the team will be transformed, sadly, we have average players and also players who're not ready or not good enough.

The problem doesn't so much lie with the players more the ground they're expected to cover in my opinion. I totally agree with PD in his OP that the centre of midfield is where the game is won and lost on most occasions however what we seem to do is create space for the opposition in our central midfield as oppose to denying space and ultimately make it easier for the opposition to deny the space to us.

We do this simply by focussing too much of our attention trying to get our fullbacks forward and our wide players staying wide, either rotating position with the fullback or allowing them to run on attempting to create 2v1's. This more often than not seems to compress the opposition inside our 4 wide players and packs them up and we are often left with our 4 central outfield players (2 cb and 2 cm) having to cover the space left behind by our attempted attack. This creates a huge problem for our defensive midfielders do they run to cover the overlap on the wings or do they stand their ground and attempt to protect the space in the middle of the park allowing runners to run either side of them (assuming we've lost possession of course).

This could easily account for Joe Allen's slump in form recently, because when they're put into the centre too much is being asked of them and they are allowing our centre backs to be exposed because they simply cannot cover all runners on the counter. The solution for me is not so much that our system has to change but more the personnel are not playing the system correctly, the culprits on most occasions are our wide forwards and I say wide forwards as oppose to wingers, because that's what they are although they play too often like wingers. The width in our team is meant to be provided by the fullbacks and when they go on the outside our wide forwards should be occupying the work of a central defender and or a central midfielder to provide the space and the recovery opportunity should they start to counter. All too often our wide forward simply gets marked by their winger and in the event of a counter attack their winger is already goal side of our wide forward and fullback so becomes the responsibility of our central midfielder and so the ripple begins.

Lucas and Allen to a lesser degree are fine, while more physicality would certainly help, they've proven that they're up to role. Gerrard is not a defensive midfielder, he played Allen's role exceptionally against Fulham but that was against a team that didn't compete in midfield and simply didn't have the pace to hurt us on a counter allowing us to recover without issue. There is no doubt that Gerrard needs to deployed further up the pitch and with regards Sahin, I think it's his pace and inability to recover quickly enough that is keeping him out of the team rather than his commitment to the challenge, the lad simply cannot cover the expanse that is being asked of him. Too many times I've seen players run past him at pace and he hasn't been able to recover and I have no doubt that is the issue rather than his strength in a tackle.

I agree with Diego though, I don't think Gerrard offers enough mobility or threat in the attacking third for the type of player we need. His shot has lost its venom, his passing has become more expansive than measured and although there have been glimpses of the old Stevie G we should not let nostalgia rule. Finding the exact fit in the attacking midfield position is our key if this system is to work long term. This player needs to be able to interchange with Suarez, needs to be able to thread a killer pass and at the same time carry a considerable threat from a long shot. As much as every screams for a striker I believe the wide front man area and attacking midfield position is our weakest area and the one we are thankfully addressing in January. If these players cannot create the space and occupy central players from the opposition we will fall to the counter attack time and again.

I wasnt really intending to have a go a Sahin, i think he could have more to show, looking back on clips of him he seems to have the lot, however he isnt showing it here, and cant be in training to force his way in.. Whether thats the style of the league, that he hasnt settled in England, that his heart isnt in a loan move... Or the overall style he is being asked to play in.

Nuri Şahin - The Pass Master Part 1


My point really being we miss someone who can stand up in the midfield currently, a Yaya or even Diame who can do that job in there, all teams need someone like that, all the top teams have someone like that.

Now it could be  a balance thing, im actually thinking it is, that if you watch our games back the gaps all across the mifield is frightening, they are fighting fires trying to cover ground, to plug gaps.. They just dont have control of the middle of the park, and if you dont have control in there you dont have control of games..

Im short of time at the minute, il come back on later and try to explain better what i mean..

Im not really having a go at our players, by saying they are similar i dont really mean in style of players, more physically. And again it falls into tactics to get the best of what you have and we arent doing that in the midfield now

 I was going to say all the GOOD Liverpool teams of years gone all had excellent midfield players,but on reflection we were excellent in all positions.They had to be or they were left in the reserves and quickly dispatched to another club.

In modern football, the role of the central midfielder has changed. Equally, the importance of central midfielders while still being there, is there for a different reason. Midfielders who "grab the game by the scruff of the neck" don't exist anymore, not in the physical Sounness type of mould anyway, simply because their mode of playing is outlawed. Central midfielders these days are either chipper inners in terms of being box to box and goal creating/getting, or defensive midfielders out and out. They are expected to keep the ball ticking over, get or make goals. Increasingly though it's attackers and defenders who win you games, NOT central midfielders. Midfielders who score vast numbers of goals Gerrard/Lampard style aren't really around anymore, these days you keep the ball as a prioroty. Attacking midfielders keep it and give it to attackers who score, defensive midfielders stop the opposition from doing the same, but all through the team distribution is king.

Look at the teams at the top of the league. The Mancs haven't really got a midfielder I would go out of my way to get. Carrick sits for them (and crucially, distributes it very well too) while Cleverley does a bit of chipping in in both boxes. While he "chips in" though, he doesn't score or create lots of goals and is a country mile behind say Gerrard as a footballer. Yaya Toure is the exception to any rule and the best central midfielder in the Premiership, but Barry again is an unspectacular but relatively effective sitter. For Chelsea Mikkel or Luis fill in the sitting role, and while Mata is an excellent player and chips in with goals, I would argue he is almost a forward really. For wide midfielders, read wingers who defend. The best example of it in the Premiership and the best at what he does is Valencia at Man Utd. Good and powerful going forwards or backwards, he is an absolute key player for them. We have nobody at the club in the same class I'm afraid.

In the big teams, big players win you matches and quite simply we haven't got enough of them as of now. Who wins the Mancs their games aside from refs? Van Persie and Rooney at one end, Ferdinand and Evans/Vidic at the other. For us we have Suarez at the attacking end who is World class, but NO alternative whatsoever, and two centre halves who have been awful in each of the last few matches where we have come up against a big bully centre forward. THAT is why we don't win enough matches, not because of any midfield disfunctionality.

I would also point out though that IMHO Lucas is a passenger since he came back. He is a mile away from being mobile enough to be effective in the defensive sense right now, and paticularly from a pace point of view he is really labouring. His distribution is actually pretty good, but ultimately he is there to make it harder for the opposition to score goals, and he is being singularly ineffective at that.

Great post fella. Central midfield is not our biggest problem, far from it. It's up top and in wide areas. Improve the quality out wide and add more options up top and we would be in far better shape.

Great post fella. Central midfield is not our biggest problem, far from it. It's up top and in wide areas. Improve the quality out wide and add more options up top and we would be in far better shape.

I agree with immediate priority but I don't agree that the role of a dominant controlling CM has died - it has changed yes but it's far from dead. Look no further than Xabi Alonso - he's not a traditional CM, more of a quarterback but by god he puts a shift. He covers but he's not a traditional DM either. He's also a first pick when fit for the World Champs.

I just feel in this league we could use someone who can change the point of attack etc and control - but possibly one for the summer if its an either or right now.

Hasn't Sahin been left out because of his nose injury?

I find it hard to believe that Rodgers is going to leave a guy like him out of the squad (not even on the bench) when he was one of the ones pulling strings to get him here.

As for Allen, he seems to have been overrated at the beginning of the season and now underrated. I don't see Allen as a pushover at all. Early in the year he was almost a flawless passer, he seems to be a good tackler especially for his size and yes his most recent form has dipped but he was played out of position for awhile with Lucas gone and he never had any kind of rest. I think he'll be fine after a couple of games on the bench.

A bit tired to post anything really meaningful but does anyone think Jay could have had a part to play during Lucas injury lay off?

I've always thought Spearing time be a real solid player with gold ability on the ball and sitting with Allen and Gerrard ahead might have been an option.

I think he would have protected the back four well and with hindsight it was another transfer mistake to let him go.With JAy you were never in doubt that he was giving 100%

I think he would have protected the back four well and with hindsight it was another transfer mistake to let him go.With JAy you were never in doubt that he was giving 100%

Sometimes 100% isn't enough. The skill has to be there and although I like Jay for what he gives, I seem to remember him getting a lot of grief at the end of last season as his play just wasn't good enough.

Sometimes 100% isn't enough. The skill has to be there and although I like Jay for what he gives, I seem to remember him getting a lot of grief at the end of last season as his play just wasn't good enough.

That's because he was Jay Spearing and it was a whole lot easier to blame him than some of the bigger names who were making just as many, if not more, mistakes.

As for this year, I don't think Jay could of done any worse than what our central midfielders have done so far. But he's Jay Spearing so he won't get a look in with Liverpool fans.

That's because he was Jay Spearing and it was a whole lot easier to blame him than some of the bigger names who were making just as many, if not more, mistakes.

As for this year, I don't think Jay could of done any worse than what our central midfielders have done so far. But he's Jay Spearing so he won't get a look in with Liverpool fans.

When we had Alonso and Gerrard then an improving Lucas Jay was still a kid but I honestly think he should have walked into this team I even think he is built for Brendans style of play.

When we had Alonso and Gerrard then an improving Lucas Jay was still a kid but I honestly think he should have walked into this team I even think he is built for Brendans style of play.

Jay is built for this style mate.

He gets it, he tends to keep it and is always looking forward. He also gets across the pitch quicker than a lot of the players we've got in that position at the moment.

Not trying to marginalize his game by any means and I like the kid and the effort he brings...but just using the eye test the end of last season...he shouldn't have been a starter for a Liverpool side. He was forced into work with Lucas's injury and he did a commendable job, but for a starting 11 he wasn't up to the task in my opinion. Apologies if that pisses anyone off, just my opinion.

BR's philosophy is to have one sitting deep breaking up opposition's play and play simple passes(Busquets) , one playing slightly up and create opportunities (xavi) and one player playing behind striker with scoring and creating goals(inesta).

Right now our problem is we have two Busquets type players in lucas and Allen. So it is all down to the AM Gerrard . If he had an off day we are fu**ed.
May be SAhin along with lucas will be a better mid field. Lucas and Allen not complementing each other. 

But he's Jay Spearing so he won't get a look in with Liverpool fans.

So you're implying that Liverpool fans don't like players from Liverpool?

BR's philosophy is to have one sitting deep breaking up opposition's play and play simple passes(Busquets) , one playing slightly up and create opportunities (xavi) and one player playing behind striker with scoring and creating goals(inesta).

Right now our problem is we have two Busquets type players in lucas and Allen. So it is all down to the AM Gerrard . If he had an off day we are fu**ed.
May be SAhin along with lucas will be a better mid field. Lucas and Allen not complementing each other. 

It's more than that mate - opposition are walking through us. That's not the AM

Lucas and Allen not complementing each other.

Lucas and Allen played together the amazing amount of FIVE games. Yes, five games, of whom we won 2, lost 2 and drew 1.

Maybe it will just take a bit longer than that for them to work well as midfield partners?

So you're implying that Liverpool fans don't like players from Liverpool?

I would guess Billy is implying that many fans would rather have an expensive foreign signing than Jay in the side.

I think Jay might have added something during Lucas absence but then Brendan wasn't counting on Lucas getting injured again so soon.

I do think that Jay might have offered more than Sahin has so far as he has taken quite a while to settle.

It's up top and in wide areas. Improve the quality out wide and add more options up top and we would be in far better shape.

Ipso facto quality in depth, the result of sell to buy and wage cutting.
Improving the standard in one area is futile when questions are asked about discrepancies in positions of play elsewhere.
The squad is stripped to the bone and results and consistency tell the tale.

Lucas and Allen played together the amazing amount of FIVE games. Yes, five games, of whom we won 2, lost 2 and drew 1.

Maybe it will just take a bit longer than that for them to work well as midfield partners?

Actually i said that because they are similar type of players. Both likes to sit deep and play simple passes. Allen was never known for creating chances or scoring goals. I don't see a place for allen on the team when lucas plays. It has to be some one creative to be with him.

Because to play with 3 midfielders like Barcelona do, you need good/very good players who have the ability to defend and attack. Guess what? We don't. Lucas is not good enough to play as a lone CDM, and Shelvey is no good to start at all. Instead of Allen/Shelvey helping Gerrard building the attacks, Stevie has to help them defending. It's a total joke that Shelvey is starting ahead of Gerrard in that CAM position!

Because to play with 3 midfielders like Barcelona do, you need good/very good players who have the ability to defend and attack. Guess what? We don't. Lucas is not good enough to play as a lone CDM, and Shelvey is no good to start at all. Instead of Allen/Shelvey helping Gerrard building the attacks, Stevie has to help them defending. It's a total joke that Shelvey is starting ahead of Gerrard in that CAM position!

I've questioned Gerrards role myself but I think Brendan wants his experience while Lucas has been out.

I've questioned Gerrards role myself but I think Brendan wants his experience while Lucas has been out.

I would've played Hendo and pushed Gerrard forward, whatever happens IMO Gerrard's position should be untouchable unless we get a better CAM in the next shopping windows.

I would guess Billy is implying that many fans would rather have an expensive foreign signing than Jay in the side.

I think Jay might have added something during Lucas absence but then Brendan wasn't counting on Lucas getting injured again so soon.

I do think that Jay might have offered more than Sahin has so far as he has taken quite a while to settle.

Fair enough, but there's a reason a lot of people don't look at Jay with much excitement and that is because he has never been that good, actually. He's a decent squad player but not much more than that, and four different managers seen to think similarly on that issue.

It's nothing to do with any kind of prejudices Liverpool fans have as DLS seemed to imply, if anything I would say fans tend to have a lot more patience with youth products than they do with expensive signings.

Actually i said that because they are similar type of players. Both likes to sit deep and play simple passes. Allen was never known for creating chances or scoring goals. I don't see a place for allen on the team when lucas plays. It has to be some one creative to be with him.

I understand what you're saying but again, Lucas and Allen have only played together for five games. It's not natural for Allen to just sit deep, he did play a lot like that while Lucas was injured though. At Swansea he got involved in a lot more than just defense, even if he's not an assist machine or anything like that.

You compare us to Barcelona, remember Xavi is the link-up midfielder and he wasn't exactly an assist machine either. However Xavi himself once said he's only as good as his team, because he makes everyone around him better by keeping the ball and spreading it around, but for it to be productive he is largely dependent on the rest of the team. Only after the arrival of Pep Guardiola did he start to regularly provide with 10+ assists a season.

Fair enough, but there's a reason a lot of people don't look at Jay with much excitement and that is because he has never been that good, actually. He's a decent squad player but not much more than that, and four different managers seen to think similarly on that issue.

It's nothing to do with any kind of prejudices Liverpool fans have as DLS seemed to imply, if anything I would say fans tend to have a lot more patience with youth products than they do with expensive signings.

It's all opinion Deigo as many of us do think Jay is good enough.

It's all opinion Deigo as many of us do think Jay is good enough.

It is indeed as i completely disagree Got to give it to the boy though, can see he loved to wear the shirt which unfortunately cant be said about the whole squad.

I don't think it's just the selection. The players must also know how to put in a good shift. This is also's BR's job to ensure the players are well prepared. All of us can select and redeploy players in different formations. The manager is the manager because he overseas training sessions as well. If he cannot even whip the players into good shape, then the board may as well sack him.

I could recall the first game Sahin started for us until he got an injury to his nose, admittedly I was one of the very few that threw all kinds of verbal abuses at him for being weak and soft in his tackle, but credit to him he has toughened himself up and committed a few rugby like tackles along the way and made players difficult to go pass him. I think he has cope well with the physical side of the game in the PL and he's an intelligent player, he knwos where and when to turn up inside the box to score, sadly many our players lacked such vision. I'd keep him beyond this season.

Today (QPR) showed what i meant by this thread, i was talking on the whole regarding how the midfield is the key to any game of football, the first half we dominated midfield, we won that battle and it set up us taking the 3 points. By dominating the middle of the park it gives you control of the game..

Its not a slight on any single player or saying if they are good enough, just ive felt we havent been as dominent in the middle as we have in the past. Thats morea mix of tactics and desire at times, look at how Stoke hassled us, never let us settle, we need to have our midfield doing that as well.. QPR stood off us a bit today and let us play, the opposite of Stoke, which suprised me really, yet when they brought Derry on at half time they got in our faces a bit more and it was a bit harder.. But overall we dominated the midfield..

Our midfield lack two very key components

Physical presence and creativity

In a few games we can dominate other midfields by using movement and quick passing and being nice and tidy ( today and Fulham two perfect examples )

But put them against a dominating centre mid and they struggle

When we are also faced with a tight defence we don't have a creative "Silva" to unlock defences

We have two players that could possibly fill those gaps

Lucas can fill that physical presence but needs to grow back his confidence and fitness

And Suso can be our Silva but needs to mature a great deal yet.

Until then we will struggle to dominate a lot of teams in the prem.

I think it's more about the matchup than anything else. I don't think we have a midfield three that is absolutely nailed on like we did in 08-09 when you knew Masch, Xabi and Stevie were undoubtedly the best. I think it's a bit more of a case of playing the matchup per game. I guess on paper it's Lucas, Allen (Sahin?) and Gerrard, but sometimes you need a player with a lot of energy like Henderson to start.