Good enough?

Someone mentioned something about our players perhaps not being as good as we think they are. So I looked at it and did a little run down of how I think our players have performed since the season's start. 'Brilliant!' are those players that feature heavily in title winning sides or who have been 'brilliant' for many years, or those who can change games on their own. For example; Da Silva, Aguero, Rooney, Bale, Terry, Kompany, Lampard, Van Persie, Mata etc. The stand out players.

Reina Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!

Johnson Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Enrique Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Wisdom Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Agger Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Skrtel Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Carragher Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Coates Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!

Lucas Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Gerrard Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Allen Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Sahin Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Shelvey Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Henderson Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!

Downing Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Assaidi Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Sterling Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Suarez Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Suso Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Cole Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!

It didn't take me long to come to those conclusions either, which for me, is that we just don't have the players, or the players are simply not performing like the should be.

And where (if we get them) would you say Sturridge and Ince fit into all of this?

What do you think, no doubt there will be differences in opinion, but I don't think it's far from the mark.

I would Skrtel to good and Lucas to good as well ( until he proves himself back up to his pre injury standard )

Assaidi to average

I would also take the youngsters into a new group - have great potential - ie Sterling , Suso and Wisdom

But it just highlights that our squad is just good - but not good enough - not enough great or brilliant players in the squad

Reina Average

Johnson  Brilliant!
Enrique  Good
Wisdom Average
Agger  Good
Skrtel Good
Carragher  Good
Coates Average

Lucas Average
Gerrard  Good
Allen Average
Sahin  Good,
Shelvey Average
Henderson Average

Downing Average
Assaidi Average
Sterling  Great
Suarez  Brilliant!
Suso Average
Cole Average

I look at it like this.

Outside of Reina, Johnson, Kelly, Skrtel, Agger, Lucas, Gerrard, Sahin, Coates and Suarez.

Gerrard and Sahin I'll put on the maybe's, Gerrard age related and Sahin, haven't seen enough of him in red to decide one way or another.

Youngsters I'll give a by as they are like cuprinol, what it says on the tin.

No one else is the squad is of similar quality.

Jones, Doni, Carra, Enrique, Allen, Shelvey, Henderson,  Assiadi, Borini, Downing, Cole etc are all distinctivley average footballers.

Not one of them would have walked into our 08-09 squad let alone our starting XI with the exception of Carra who did.

Average is being kind to some.

Reina - average
Jones - average

Kelly - good
Jonson - good (boss at left back, average at right back - levels out to good overall)
Wisdom - average
Agger - average
Skrtel - average
Coates - average
Carragher - average
Enrique - sh*t

Lucas - average
Allen - sh*t
Sahin - average
Gerrard - average
Shelvey - average
Henderson - average
Downing - sh*t
Cole - sh*t
Suso - average
Sterling - good
Assaidi - average

Borini - sh*t
Suarez - boss

Suarez is the only brilliant one.

Henderson, Sahin, Allen, Downing and Cole have been sh*te this season.

Sterling and Johnson have been good.

The rest have been average.

Average is being kind to some.

Reina - average
Jones - average

Kelly - good
Jonson - good (boss at left back, average at right back - levels out to good overall)
Wisdom - average
Agger - average
Skrtel - average
Coates - average
Carragher - average
Enrique - sh*t

Lucas - average
Allen - sh*t
Sahin - average
Gerrard - average
Shelvey - average
Henderson - average
Downing - sh*t
Cole - sh*t
Suso - average
Sterling - good
Assaidi - average

Borini - sh*t
Suarez - boss

Agree with all 'shits'. Perhaps maybe i would give Borini a little more time.
Again we had two disastrous transfer windows.
Downing,Henderson,Carrol(from winter window, but still) , Allen,Borini, Assaidi.
God with this many signings our team look like sh*t.
Signing Allen when we had problems infront of the goal is still a mystery to me. 

Depressing isn't it.

No not good enough.

How dare you rate Allen and Borini as sh*t! They were meant to improve us.

For me what makes Good players great or average players good... Are how they are used, so it still falls down on tactics and management for the most part..

Lets look at a couple of quick examples, teams and players..

Look at us on paper as has been done here against Stoke and Villa on paper.. Who has the better set of players? Without being blinkered id say us.. Is Lucas better than Whelan? Are Agger and Skrtel better than Shawcross and Huth? Is Suarez better than Walters? Is Gerrard better than N'Zonzi?
Are the same players better than Herd?, Clark?, Bannan?, Benteke?

Where would you rate their squads if you went through them? Below ours would be my guess?

So the way they are set up? The tactics used, the way the managers are getting the best out of them?

If our players and their players came on the market who would the top clubs in the world look at? Ours... So i dont believe they are worse than we think, i think they are suffering from the club having no stability and 4 different sets of tactics being used in 4 different seasons...

Players must take responsibility for their own performances but when the tactics they are plsying to are leaving us so open and so easy to beat then there is someone else to look at for me


A player example as well, Stewart Downing.. Now most of us would rate him average i would guess? Well how come at Villa he was managed so well he was player of the season twice in three years and an England regular? He had a manager getting the most from him..

Reina -above  average
Jones - average

Kelly - good
Johnson vgood
Wisdom - to young could be great
Agger - good
Skrtel - good
Coates - to young could be great
Carragher - average
Enrique - good

Lucas -good unfit tho
Allen - to young could be great
Sahin - not seen enough of
Gerrard - brilliant on day
Shelvey - average
Henderson -to young could be good
Downing - sh*t never want to see in lfc shirt
Cole - sh*t never want to see in lfc shirt
Suso -to young could be great
Sterling - to young could be great
Assaidi - not seen enough of

Borini - not seen enough of
Suarez - awesome

As PD says the players as a whole haven't performed to the level they are capable but it is up to the manager to send out the side in the best system and with the right tactics to get the best out of them.

I don't think this has happened often enough this season.

Of course individual performances haven't been good enough and players can play better but I still maintain we have a better squad of players than most teams in the league and should be doing much better.

As PD says the players as a whole haven't performed to the level they are capable but it is up to the manager to send out the side in the best system and with the right tactics to get the best out of them.

I don't think this has happened often enough this season.

Of course individual performances haven't been good enough and players can play better but I still maintain we have a better squad of players than most teams in the league and should be doing much better.

Where do you put our squad ?

I put it around the same as Everton currently

So i dont believe they are worse than we think

I do mate.

When people are telling me that Henderson and/or Shelvey are natural replacements for Gerrard, then I think our players are worse than people think.
When people are telling me that Enrique is the best left back in the league, then I think our players are worse than people think.
When people are telling me that Lucas and Sahin can be as good as Alonso and Mascherano, then I think our players are worse than people think.
When people are telling me that Allen is the nearest thing to Xavi, then I think our players are worse than people think.

They're just a few examples, but we've been guilty of overrating our own players for years. And underrating others just as much. Carlton Cole and Kenwyne Jones being berated non-stop by Liverpool fans whereas Skrtel and Agger have been hailed as the best partnership in the League, yet both Cole and Jones ran the best partnership in the League ragged.

Where do you put our squad ?

I put it around the same as Everton currently

Who are challenging for 4th no? Not sat in 10th

Therefore we are underachieving with this squad

I don't think we have a championship winning squad but I believe it's better than mid table rubbish

Who are challenging for 4th no? Not sat in 10th

Therefore we are underachieving with this squad

I don't think we have a championship winning squad but I believe it's better than mid table rubbish

Well I think currently Everton are over achieving and as the season goes on will drop down into the 6/7th place - that's the level also for us currently and where I think we will finish

Well I think currently Everton are over achieving and as the season goes on will drop down into the 6/7th place - that's the level also for us currently and where I think we will finish

The challenge for any manager is to get the absolute best from his playing staff..

We would agree Moyes is doing that..

Rodgers is not

The challenge for any manager is to get the absolute best from his playing staff..

We would agree Moyes is doing that..

Rodgers is not

Moyes is and Rodgers does need to get more

Not going to argue with that

When it all settles down come near the business end the BS will be our rivals for position. Lets hope we aren't behind them for a second season

What worries me, is the gaffer bought Borini, who struggled to do anything, then got injured, he bought Assaidi, who showed promise, but for some reason he didn't play him, and now he's out injured, he bought Sahin, and he is on the bench, he bought Allen, who has just spent the last two games on the bench.

So out of his four summer signings, none of them have made any sort of impact on the team.

Where do you put our squad ?

I put it around the same as Everton currently

As you know mate I think our squad is better than theirs but so we are not where I'd expect us to be.

Look we've played almost every team once and are sitting 10th.

Teams that we should be beating we are getting beat by so even with our difficult opening run of games I expected the results to pick up after six or seven games.

You and others might think it is good enough, that's fine, but I don't and nothing will convince me that our squad is at the level of the likes of Stoke and Swansea.

As you know mate I think our squad is better than theirs but so we are not where I'd expect us to be.

Look we've played almost every team once and are sitting 10th.

Teams that we should be beating we are getting beat by so even with our difficult opening run of games I expected the results to pick up after six or seven games.

You and others might think it is good enough, that's fine, but I don't and nothing will convince me that our squad is at the level of the likes of Stoke and Swansea.

I don't think it's good enough and come nowhere close to even suggest its good enough.

I know we shouldn't be tenth just like West Brom shouldn't be 6th

I was just wondering where you did consider the level of the squad to be ? Below the top 5 ? On par with Spurs ?

I don't think it's good enough and come nowhere close to even suggest its good enough.

I know we shouldn't be tenth just like West Brom shouldn't be 6th

I was just wondering where you did consider the level of the squad to be ? Below the top 5 ? On par with Spurs ?

Sorry to jump in but yes, on a level with Spurs and Everton.. Because of the lack of a couple of bodies possibly just below Spuds but with the squad we have with the right tactics challenging for top 4 along with those..

Steve Clarke has West Brom over achieving... Well done, that's his job... Under achieving is more concerning than over achieving.
How has Clarkey got them over achieving? By making them difficult to beat.

Sorry to jump in but yes, on a level with Spurs and Everton.. Because of the lack of a couple of bodies possibly just below Spuds but with the squad we have with the right tactics challenging for top 4 along with those..

Steve Clarke has West Brom over achieving... Well done, that's his job... Under achieving is more concerning than over achieving.
How has Clarkey got them over achieving? By making them difficult to beat.

If I look at the squads in the prem

3 are clear at the top - City , Chelsea and the Scum

Then there is two clubs that will battle for 4th right to the end - Spurs and Arsenal

Then there is Everton and Us who would have to rely on either Arsenal or Spurs to have a bad season to try and sneak into 4th but ultimately will fight out for the Europa spot

Then below that we have the true mid table teams who during the season over achieve and have a little stay amongst the other clubs - Stoke , Swansea , Newcastle , West Brom plus possible Fulham, West Ham and Sunderland

The rest of the teams are the teams who I expect to be the relegation candidates

Obviously during the odd occasions teams under or over perform

But that's where I believe it looks on paper.

Reina Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!

Johnson Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Enrique Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Wisdom Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Agger Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Skrtel Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Carragher Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Coates Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!

Lucas Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Gerrard Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Allen Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Sahin Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Shelvey Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Henderson Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!

Downing Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Assaidi Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Sterling Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Suarez Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Suso Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!
Cole Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!

I think we have enough good players to finish better than last season. With Sturridge & Ince I believe we should be in the mix for that 4th spot till the very last game of the season.

Great topic and OP. I was one who mentioned the squad wasn't as good as people seem to think. At least not better than United, City, Chelsea, Arsenal or Spurs.

Brilliant: Just Luis Suarez, and even then he can be pretty inconsistent.

Great: Agger, Johnson, Gerrard (despite age and injury).

Good: Lucas (until he makes full recovery), Allen, Sahin, Skrtel, Enrique, Reina, Coates

Average: Downing, Cole, Shelvey, Henderson, Carragher, Assaidi,

No rating: Suso, Sterling, Wisdom, Borini (youth/few appearances to make an accurate judgement but would throw all of them in Average for now)

We've always massively overrated our squad and this year is no exception. Look at that list. Other than Suarez and Gerrard pitching in here and there, we have no one to score goals. Andy Carroll wouldn't have made that much of a difference either, before anyone suggests that.

At best, our squad is 6th in the league. I refuse to believe our squad is better than Arsenal's or Tottenham's.

I do mate.

When people are telling me that Henderson and/or Shelvey are natural replacements for Gerrard, then I think our players are worse than people think.
When people are telling me that Enrique is the best left back in the league, then I think our players are worse than people think.
When people are telling me that Lucas and Sahin can be as good as Alonso and Mascherano, then I think our players are worse than people think.
When people are telling me that Allen is the nearest thing to Xavi, then I think our players are worse than people think.

They're just a few examples, but we've been guilty of overrating our own players for years. And underrating others just as much. Carlton Cole and Kenwyne Jones being berated non-stop by Liverpool fans whereas Skrtel and Agger have been hailed as the best partnership in the League, yet both Cole and Jones ran the best partnership in the League ragged.

It depends on where each persons thoughts on the current squad is..

I dont think this squad is a championship challenging squad, not by a long way.. But i do think that the core of it should be challenging the top 4 places, and with one or two signings then it should be taken as granted we are back in there or certainly pushing Spurs and Arsenal for 4th every year..

Its certainly not a squad that is mid table and struggling for consistency like it does and  so easy to play against..

Ive never thought Shelvey or Henderson will be the next Gerrard, we will be lucky to see another player as good as Gerrard in our lifetimes mate..

Ive never thought Sahin and Lucas would be as good as Macherano and Alonso

I never thought Enrique is the best left back in the league

The only person to talk about Allen and Xavi in the same breath is the gaffer

I personally have never rated Skrtel as highly as most reds do..

But as i said its better than 10th...........

What worries me, is the gaffer bought Borini, who struggled to do anything, then got injured, he bought Assaidi, who showed promise, but for some reason he didn't play him, and now he's out injured, he bought Sahin, and he is on the bench, he bought Allen, who has just spent the last two games on the bench.

So out of his four summer signings, none of them have made any sort of impact on the team.

Sahin has been on the bench injured, Allen has been on the bench because he needed a rest and I wonder if anyone has thought of how we might have been worse off when Lucas was injured had we not had Allen?

Borini has been injured and I for one think he'll come good. Assaidi I'm not sure why he hasn't gotten any time in League games.

Sahin has been on the bench injured, Allen has been on the bench because he needed a rest and I wonder if anyone has thought of how we might have been worse off when Lucas was injured had we not had Allen?

Borini has been injured and I for one think he'll come good. Assaidi I'm not sure why he hasn't gotten any time in League games.

I think Borini will be ok..

Allen has struggled overall due to the tactics the manager has deployed

Assaidi the talk is Rodgers doesnt rate him and he wasnt actually his signing

I think Borini will be ok..

Allen has struggled overall due to the tactics the manager has deployed

Assaidi the talk is Rodgers doesnt rate him and he wasnt actually his signing

It will be a mistake in my mind if Rodgers doesn't try and get Assaidi some time. I think he'd do very nice for us. Maybe not an out and out starter but good to come off the bench and spell Sterling or to start some games and give the starters a rest. He probably needs to develop his game a little more but it's not like he's light years worse than what we have at the position already.

It will be a mistake in my mind if Rodgers doesn't try and get Assaidi some time. I think he'd do very nice for us. Maybe not an out and out starter but good to come off the bench and spell Sterling or to start some games and give the starters a rest. He probably needs to develop his game a little more but it's not like he's light years worse than what we have at the position already.

Makes you wonder doesnt it?

I had heard he wont play him as he insists "if he hasnt brought the player it doesnt matter if he costs 35 million or 3 million he wont play him"

Makes you wonder doesnt it?

I had heard he wont play him as he insists "if he hasnt brought the player it doesnt matter if he costs 35 million or 3 million he wont play him"

I can understand not wanting to play someone that doesn't fit your style/tactics but he's done well enough in the cup games he's played. Anyway, not trying to turn this into an Assaidi thread...carry on.

I think Borini will be ok..

Allen has struggled overall due to the tactics the manager has deployed

Assaidi the talk is Rodgers doesnt rate him and he wasnt actually his signing

Allen has struggled due to what?

Allen has struggled due to what?

To have a massive impact on the season...

Ive said i feel the managers system is leading to the midfield being overun and caught on the back foot against the counter attack.. Not saying he has been poor, he has done ok but apart from tick over the play he hasnt done anything beyond that.. Had the tactics been better and we were more in control of the midfield i feel he could be a very good player for us

Is all

I do agree that our midfield hasnt dictating hardly any games this season but still believe that Lucas when fully fit and allen will prove to be pretty solid.
The issue to me is gerrard and where he plays.
Get that sorted with some additional attacking players, the defence restructured and we can start to build.
These are tough days for us all.

To try to give this some balance rather than ask good enough and rate the players in subjective words I decided to take all 4 squads, ours, Spuds, Bitters and the Arse and compare each player like for like discounting any injury or suspension. This should illustrate strength of squad, I did the same for what would be considered first XI a score of 1 for being the best in that position up to 4 to the worst out of the 4 squads.

                                Liverpool                            Arsenal                                 Tottenham                              Everton

Goalkeepers             Reina     (2)                         Szczesny     (4)                     Lloris         (1)                         Howard      (3)
                                Jones    (3)                          Fabianski     (2)                    Friedel       (1)                         Mucha        (4)
                                Doni      (2)                          Mannone      (3)                   Gomes       (1)                                           (4)
                         
Central Defenders    Agger     (1)                         Koscielny      (4)                   Dawson      (3)                        Jagielka     (2)
                                Skrtel     (2)                         Mertesacker  (4)                  Vertonghen(1)                         Distin        (3)
                                Coates   (4)                         Vermaelen    (1)                   Gallas        (3)                         Heitinga    (2)
                                Carragher(2)                       Djourou         (4)                  Caulker      (1)                         Duffy         (3)

Full Backs                 Johnson  (1)                        Sagna           (3)                   Walker         (4)                       Baines      (2)
                                Enrique   (1)                        Gibbs            (3)                   Essou-Ekotto(4)                       Hibbert     (2)
                                Kelly        (1)                        Jenkinson     (3)                   Naughton      (4)                      Coleman   (2)
                                Wisdom   (2)                        Santos         (3)                                         (4)                      Neville      (1)

Midfielders*             Gerrard    (4)                        Carzola        (3)                   Bale               (1)                     Fellaini       (2)
                                Lucas       (1)                        Arteta          (3)                   Parker           (2)                      Mirallas      (4)
                                Allen         (3)                       Wilshire        (2)                   Dembele        (1)                     Pienaar      (4)
                                Sahin        (4)                       Podolski       (1)                   Lennon         (2)                      Gibson       (3)
                                Sterling     (1)                       Ramsey        (2)                   Sigurdsson   (3)                      Hitzlesperger (4)
                                Downing   (4)                       OxladeC       (2)                   Sandro          (1)                     Osman       (3)

Strikers                    Suarez      (1)                       Giroud          (4)                   Defoe            (2)                     Jelavic        (4)
                                Carroll       (3)                       Walcott        (1)                   Adebayor      (2)                      Anichebe   (4)
                                Borini        (3)                        Chamakh     (4)                   Dempsey       (1)                     Naismith    (2)

*To give balance some wide players were needed to be included in with the midfielders

Totals for Squads:

                              Goalkeepers         Central Defenders       Full backs      Midfielders         Strikers        Squad Total

Liverpool                         7                               9                          5                    17                    7                     45

Arsenal                            9                              13                        12                   13                    9                    56

Tottenham                       3                               8                         16                   10                    5                    42

Everton                           11                             10                        7                     20                   10                   58

Based upon that our squad strength is only slightly behind Tottenham's and both us and Spurs are well in front of Arsenal and Everton.

Using the same numbers but applying it only to First XI you would get something close to:-

                              Goalkeeper         Central Defenders       Full backs      Midfielders         Strikers        First XI Total
                               
Liverpool                      2                             3                             2                    12                    4                     23

Arsenal                        4                              8                             6                     9                     5                     32
 
Tottenham                   1                             4                              8                     6                     4                     23

Everton                        3                             5                              4                    13                    8                     33

Using a 1-4-4-2 formation with squeezing Gerrard into a wide attacking area as our 4-3-3 seems to fit the most fair way and basically took the top players in each position that I personally judged it. It would seem that our first XI when matched in strength comes out level with Tottenham;s and ahead of Everton and Arsenal. Now granted I may be biased but I've tried to be as fair as I could with this to demonstrate it as fairly as I could.

No one else is the squad is of similar quality.

Jones, Doni, Carra, Enrique, Allen, Shelvey, Henderson,  Assiadi, Borini, Downing, Cole etc are all distinctivley average footballers.

Not one of them would have walked into our 08-09 squad let alone our starting XI with the exception of Carra who did.

Agree   Red.

I just do not accept some fans interpretation of Reina's season so far. He's been blamed for not saving when defensive errors gifted a goal and blamed when the opposition just scored a blinder of a goal. It's all too easy to bash the goalkeeper when we loose but after some initial mistakes, his season has generally been a good one. By extension, I think Gerrard is being overrated because, well, he's Steven Gerrard, when in truth he's only had one good game for us and that was against a very poor Fulham side. I also think it's unfair to judge Borini on the back of so few performances, at such a young age, coming in from a foreign league. Far more balanced to say the jury is still out on him.

I do agree with the general sentiment though that our squad is poor. There's no way Allen, Henderson, Shelvey, Downing or Cole would walk in to Man U, City, Chelsea, Arsenal or Spurs. Sterling has been one of our best players this year but really, is that more to do with the fact the rest of them are so poor? He has speed, he doesn't mind getting physical but he's no eye for goal and seems to lack the instinct of when to pass and when to shoot. He's very much an unfinished article and would not be a first team player where our squad so thread bear.

At the end of the day, this is all very subjective but I think most of us would agree our squad needs a total overhaul if we're to have any hope of playing in the CL again.

I think people are being harsh on Lucas and Borini. Lucas was injured for 6 months last season, he comes back, gets a little fitness but not any match fitness. Then gets another 3 month injury. Really not fair to judge his performances. Borini was a new signing who has started poorly, but got injured so again I think it is unfair to make a judgement.

Average is being kind.

Reina - Average
Jones - Average

Kelly - Average
Johnson - Brilliant
Wisdom - Average
Agger - Average
Skrtel - Average
Coates - Not enough games to judge
Carragher - Not enough games to judge
Enrique - Poor at the start but Brilliant in the last 6 weeks or so. For now: Good

Lucas - Not enough games to judge
Allen - Average
Sahin - Average (although played out of position)
Gerrard - sh*t in the first few months but improved lately: Average
Shelvey - Decent
Henderson - Average
Downing - sh*t
Cole - sh*t
Suso - Average
Sterling - Decent
Assaidi - Average

Borini - Not enough games to judge
Suarez - F***ing Fantastic

Says a lot that the only offensive players that has been acceptable is Suarez, all the rest haven't been good enough. The only player who'd actually get in our 2008 team is Suarez. Gerrard wouldn't with his decline. Sad looking at where our squad is compared to only 4 years ago.

It makes for poor reading when so many supporters describe most of our players as only average.This is a sad indictment of what has happened to our football club.People say football is a simple game but we are not able to get the simple things right.

It makes for poor reading when so many supporters describe most of our players as only average.This is a sad indictment of what has happened to our football club.People say football is a simple game but we are not able to get the simple things right.

You are completely right about the simple things.

I mean, we do have way too many average players. I bet in all your years watching Liverpool, you haven't seen us with such a week squad in over 50 years at least.

I think the problem is we overcomplicate things, and we don't have the same work rate and graft as we used to. I mean the team plays Villa at home, the players are already thinking we're gonna thrash them. Some fans think that too. Really need to change that mentality. Then I see our luck changing.

You are completely right about the simple things.

I mean, we do have way too many average players. I bet in all your years watching Liverpool, you haven't seen us with such a week squad in over 50 years at least.

I think the problem is we overcomplicate things, and we don't have the same work rate and graft as we used to. I mean the team plays Villa at home, the players are already thinking we're gonna thrash them. Some fans think that too. Really need to change that mentality. Then I see our luck changing.

The only comparison I can make is in the 1950s when we were relegated to the old 2nd division,the manager we had in those days was Don Welsh who I never rated as a manager.On reflection we were relrgated because so many of our players had got old together and were not replaced .I refer to the likes of Cyril Sidlow Ray Lambert,Bill Jones,Bob Paisley,Phil Taylor,Jack Balmer,Willie Fagan and in fairness to the club we had lost 7 years of football due to the 2nd world war.I thank god that we still had Billy Liddell who played on for a few years longer or who knows what would of happened without Billy.Hope this gives a bit of an insight into those days.

The only comparison I can make is in the 1950s when we were relegated to the old 2nd division,the manager we had in those days was Don Welsh who I never rated as a manager.On reflection we were relrgated because so many of our players had got old together and were not replaced .I refer to the likes of Cyril Sidlow Ray Lambert,Bill Jones,Bob Paisley,Phil Taylor,Jack Balmer,Willie Fagan and in fairness to the club we had lost 7 years of football due to the 2nd world war.I thank god that we still had Billy Liddell who played on for a few years longer or who knows what would of happened without Billy.Hope this gives a bit of an insight into those days.

Nice story mate .

Billy Liddell was a very loyal player. Unfortunately those players are disappearing rapidly, all for a quick payday.

Thankfully we won't get relegated this season, thinking of a positive haha.

I mean the team plays Villa at home, the players are already thinking we're gonna thrash them. Some fans think that too. Really need to change that mentality. Then I see our luck changing.

We should be thinking we are going to trash the likes of Villa.

They are sh*te and their results over the last week or so have proven that.

Players definitely shouldnt take wins for granted but I'd like to think they are going out thinking they are better than the likes of Villa.

We should be thinking we are going to trash the likes of Villa.

They are sh*te ans their results over the last week or so have proven that.

Players definitely shouldnt take wins for granted but I'd like to think they are going out thinking they are better than the likes of Villa.

I wasn't really meaning it like that mate.

I was thinking more along the lines of the fact we shouldn't be assuming a team like Villa will let us walk over them. The fact we can't be lazy.

In terms of ability we should walk all over them, but we sometimes lose against teams who we should beat because they work that 10% harder. I was thinking like that mate.

Some depressing stats from the BBC website going into todays game:

•The Reds will end 2012 with their fewest number of league victories in a calendar year. They are currently on 11; their previous low was 14 in 2010.

•They have also lost 17 league matches in 2012, three more than in any other year.

So this proves we are not good enough, albeit the players, management or both (and I include Kenny's final few months in that)!

I wasn't really meaning it like that mate.

I was thinking more along the lines of the fact we shouldn't be assuming a team like Villa will let us walk over them. The fact we can't be lazy.

In terms of ability we should walk all over them, but we sometimes lose against teams who we should beat because they work that 10% harder. I was thinking like that mate.

Agree we shouldnt just think we will walk over them but our players are good enough to beat most of the teams in this league so it's the managers job to send them out with the correct mentality and tactics to win a game.

If the boss keeps talking about long term projects and our 'group' not being good enough then it gives players the wrong impression and an excuse to put in performances like we've seen recently.

Agree we shouldnt just think we will walk over them but our players are good enough to beat most of the teams in this league so it's the managers job to send them out with the correct mentality and tactics to win a game.

If the boss keeps talking about long term projects and our 'group' not being good enough then it gives players the wrong impression and an excuse to put in performances like we've seen recently.

Players should never hear the manager belittles his own players. The best experienced managers never do that, not even after a terrible performance. I think Rogers is doing that to show the owners that he needs money to build his team.

But being honest, the players aren't good enough for the expectations we demand every season. I think Rogers should be doing more with the squad he has, and i feel he has made a few mistakes so far. It is also up to the players to perform too, and to work hard on the pitch. Managers can only do so much, when the player crosses the white line it is up to them.

I think teams are figuring us out a little though. They know how we attack, nullify Suarez and we lose our main threat, and quickly counter through the wide areas where we leave big gabs when the full backs push forwards.

Lumped the whole lot into the following categories  :-

Average (1-Point)(Total  :  9 players)(Total Points  :  9)

Reina/Carrager/Lucas/Allen/Shelvey/Henderson/Downing/Suso/Cole


Good (2-points)(Total  :  7 players) (Total Points :  14)

Johnson/Wisdom/Agger/Skrtel/Coates/Sahin/Assaidi


Great (3-points)(Total  :  3 - players)(Total Points  :  9)

Enrique/Gerrard/Sterling/

Brilliant (4-points)(Total  :  1 player)(Total Points  : 4)

Suarez

If we total up the points we have :-

Average  :  9
Good  :  14
Great  :  9
Brilliant  :  4
____________________
Grand Total Points  : 36
____________________

Total Max Points  :    20 players x 4 points  = 80 points

% of Total  :  36/80  = 45 %

Say 50% as a benchmark for an average team, we are just about there.

I think most of us have ranked the players quite consistently, only a few movement of players from lower to upper category and vice-versa.

I am resgined to the fact that whilst FSG are here we have to get used to this. They are just not football people neither fans of the game nor experts on it.they continue to make catestrophic cockup appointments and drag the club backwards.
Don't see anyone else with money to come here so its very much a case of what we have now is what we will have next season too.
The team cannot perform whilst there is so much unrest within the club sacking Kenny was another bomb under the foundations ..thanks for that FSG.

We should be thinking we are going to trash the likes of Villa.

They are sh*te and their results over the last week or so have proven that.

Players definitely shouldnt take wins for granted but I'd like to think they are going out thinking they are better than the likes of Villa.

Since Villa trounced us they've conceded 15 goals in three games.

Sobering thought.

I think people are being harsh on Lucas and Borini. Lucas was injured for 6 months last season, he comes back, gets a little fitness but not any match fitness. Then gets another 3 month injury. Really not fair to judge his performances. Borini was a new signing who has started poorly, but got injured so again I think it is unfair to make a judgement.

It isn't about being fair, it's about judging their performances this season. It does seem unfair, but they are only being judged because a) they've played, and b) they may feature in the future. What it is meant to do, is take a sobering look at the personnel we have at our disposal.

So basically, if they play, they get assessed

And I'm reminded of a few school reports I had with the statement 'Can do better' at the bottom of them.

Since Villa trounced us they've conceded 15 goals in three games.

Sobering thought.

Exactly.

They are sh*te and we shouldn't be losing games like those.

To try to give this some balance rather than ask good enough and rate the players in subjective words I decided to take all 4 squads, ours, Spuds, Bitters and the Arse and compare each player like for like discounting any injury or suspension. This should illustrate strength of squad, I did the same for what would be considered first XI a score of 1 for being the best in that position up to 4 to the worst out of the 4 squads.

                                Liverpool                            Arsenal                                 Tottenham                              Everton

Goalkeepers             Reina     (2)                         Szczesny     (4)                     Lloris         (1)                         Howard      (3)
                                Jones    (3)                          Fabianski     (2)                    Friedel       (1)                         Mucha        (4)
                                Doni      (2)                          Mannone      (3)                   Gomes       (1)                                           (4)
                         
Central Defenders    Agger     (1)                         Koscielny      (4)                   Dawson      (3)                        Jagielka     (2)
                                Skrtel     (2)                         Mertesacker  (4)                  Vertonghen(1)                         Distin        (3)
                                Coates   (4)                         Vermaelen    (1)                   Gallas        (3)                         Heitinga    (2)
                                Carragher(2)                       Djourou         (4)                  Caulker      (1)                         Duffy         (3)

Full Backs                 Johnson  (1)                        Sagna           (3)                   Walker         (4)                       Baines      (2)
                                Enrique   (1)                        Gibbs            (3)                   Essou-Ekotto(4)                       Hibbert     (2)
                                Kelly        (1)                        Jenkinson     (3)                   Naughton      (4)                      Coleman   (2)
                                Wisdom   (2)                        Santos         (3)                                         (4)                      Neville      (1)

Midfielders*             Gerrard    (4)                        Carzola        (3)                   Bale               (1)                     Fellaini       (2)
                                Lucas       (1)                        Arteta          (3)                   Parker           (2)                      Mirallas      (4)
                                Allen         (3)                       Wilshire        (2)                   Dembele        (1)                     Pienaar      (4)
                                Sahin        (4)                       Podolski       (1)                   Lennon         (2)                      Gibson       (3)
                                Sterling     (1)                       Ramsey        (2)                   Sigurdsson   (3)                      Hitzlesperger (4)
                                Downing   (4)                       OxladeC       (2)                   Sandro          (1)                     Osman       (3)

Strikers                    Suarez      (1)                       Giroud          (4)                   Defoe            (2)                     Jelavic        (4)
                                Carroll       (3)                       Walcott        (1)                   Adebayor      (2)                      Anichebe   (4)
                                Borini        (3)                        Chamakh     (4)                   Dempsey       (1)                     Naismith    (2)

*To give balance some wide players were needed to be included in with the midfielders

Totals for Squads:

                              Goalkeepers         Central Defenders       Full backs      Midfielders         Strikers        Squad Total

Liverpool                         7                               9                          5                    17                    7                     45

Arsenal                            9                              13                        12                   13                    9                    56

Tottenham                       3                               8                         16                   10                    5                    42

Everton                           11                             10                        7                     20                   10                   58

Based upon that our squad strength is only slightly behind Tottenham's and both us and Spurs are well in front of Arsenal and Everton.

Using the same numbers but applying it only to First XI you would get something close to:-

                              Goalkeeper         Central Defenders       Full backs      Midfielders         Strikers        First XI Total
                               
Liverpool                      2                             3                             2                    12                    4                     23

Arsenal                        4                              8                             6                     9                     5                     32
 
Tottenham                   1                             4                              8                     6                     4                     23

Everton                        3                             5                              4                    13                    8                     33

Using a 1-4-4-2 formation with squeezing Gerrard into a wide attacking area as our 4-3-3 seems to fit the most fair way and basically took the top players in each position that I personally judged it. It would seem that our first XI when matched in strength comes out level with Tottenham;s and ahead of Everton and Arsenal. Now granted I may be biased but I've tried to be as fair as I could with this to demonstrate it as fairly as I could.

Excellent bit of work mate.

To try to give this some balance rather than ask good enough and rate the players in subjective words I decided to take all 4 squads, ours, Spuds, Bitters and the Arse and compare each player like for like discounting any injury or suspension. This should illustrate strength of squad, I did the same for what would be considered first XI a score of 1 for being the best in that position up to 4 to the worst out of the 4 squads.

                                Liverpool                            Arsenal                                 Tottenham                              Everton

Goalkeepers             Reina     (2)                         Szczesny     (4)                     Lloris         (1)                         Howard      (3)
                                Jones    (3)                          Fabianski     (2)                    Friedel       (1)                         Mucha        (4)
                                Doni      (2)                          Mannone      (3)                   Gomes       (1)                                           (4)
                         
Central Defenders    Agger     (1)                         Koscielny      (4)                   Dawson      (3)                        Jagielka     (2)
                                Skrtel     (2)                         Mertesacker  (4)                  Vertonghen(1)                         Distin        (3)
                                Coates   (4)                         Vermaelen    (1)                   Gallas        (3)                         Heitinga    (2)
                                Carragher(2)                       Djourou         (4)                  Caulker      (1)                         Duffy         (3)

Full Backs                 Johnson  (1)                        Sagna           (3)                   Walker         (4)                       Baines      (2)
                                Enrique   (1)                        Gibbs            (3)                   Essou-Ekotto(4)                       Hibbert     (2)
                                Kelly        (1)                        Jenkinson     (3)                   Naughton      (4)                      Coleman   (2)
                                Wisdom   (2)                        Santos         (3)                                         (4)                      Neville      (1)

Midfielders*             Gerrard    (4)                        Carzola        (3)                   Bale               (1)                     Fellaini       (2)
                                Lucas       (1)                        Arteta          (3)                   Parker           (2)                      Mirallas      (4)
                                Allen         (3)                       Wilshire        (2)                   Dembele        (1)                     Pienaar      (4)
                                Sahin        (4)                       Podolski       (1)                   Lennon         (2)                      Gibson       (3)
                                Sterling     (1)                       Ramsey        (2)                   Sigurdsson   (3)                      Hitzlesperger (4)
                                Downing   (4)                       OxladeC       (2)                   Sandro          (1)                     Osman       (3)

Strikers                    Suarez      (1)                       Giroud          (4)                   Defoe            (2)                     Jelavic        (4)
                                Carroll       (3)                       Walcott        (1)                   Adebayor      (2)                      Anichebe   (4)
                                Borini        (3)                        Chamakh     (4)                   Dempsey       (1)                     Naismith    (2)

*To give balance some wide players were needed to be included in with the midfielders

Totals for Squads:

                              Goalkeepers         Central Defenders       Full backs      Midfielders         Strikers        Squad Total

Liverpool                         7                               9                          5                    17                    7                     45

Arsenal                            9                              13                        12                   13                    9                    56

Tottenham                       3                               8                         16                   10                    5                    42

Everton                           11                             10                        7                     20                   10                   58

Based upon that our squad strength is only slightly behind Tottenham's and both us and Spurs are well in front of Arsenal and Everton.

Using the same numbers but applying it only to First XI you would get something close to:-

                              Goalkeeper         Central Defenders       Full backs      Midfielders         Strikers        First XI Total
                               
Liverpool                      2                             3                             2                    12                    4                     23

Arsenal                        4                              8                             6                     9                     5                     32
 
Tottenham                   1                             4                              8                     6                     4                     23

Everton                        3                             5                              4                    13                    8                     33

Using a 1-4-4-2 formation with squeezing Gerrard into a wide attacking area as our 4-3-3 seems to fit the most fair way and basically took the top players in each position that I personally judged it. It would seem that our first XI when matched in strength comes out level with Tottenham;s and ahead of Everton and Arsenal. Now granted I may be biased but I've tried to be as fair as I could with this to demonstrate it as fairly as I could.

First off awesome job. That looks like it took forever to type!

I think you're being a bit too generous for some and a bit too harsh for others.

Tim Howard has performed to a higher level than Pepe has for at least 2 seasons now, and I wouldn't consider Szczesny a scrub either, but in comparison he might be fourth like you have him. I would agree Spurs' keepers are all deserving of 1s.

I don't think Skrtel is THAT much better than Mertesacker. That's one I find a bit harsh. They'd both be pushes at 3 for me. And Carragher at 2? I don't think so. I think Arsenal consider their best CB pairing to be Vermaelen/Mertesacker, so Carra would be lined up vs Koscielny. That would change all the ratings for third choice CB.

I think the fulbacks are a bit mixed up? Shouldn't Baines be vs Enrique instead of Johnson? Glen's defo the best RB of the group, but Baines is easily the best LB. IMO Baines, BAE, Enrique, Gibbs in that order for LBs, as I fell BAE is a bit underrated by some.

Midfielders like you say are a bit tough to rate, but I'd swap Cazorla and Fellaini. I'm not sure how the pairings were lined up, because you have Sterling vs Ramsey and Ramsey is more of a central guy while, unless you put them from a depth chart type of position.

As for forwards, I wouldn't include Carroll at all given that he's on loan and is likely not coming back. So we really only have Suarez and Borini.

----


Maybe a better comparison is to look at the the starting XIs and typical benches for us, Spurs, and Arsenal? We all basically play something between a 4-3-3 and a 4-2-3-1 so there should be some fairly direct comparisons.

Cheers, it was a close call on Howard and Pepe for me and can certainly understand you arguing it that way, at the end of the day that's a 1 point swing to Everton and is easiest to correct and in truth doesn't change too much.

Skrtel has made a couple of errors this season but I'd definitely rather have him than the beanpole, that again is personal preference and in some cases I tried to undersell our guys, in others I am bound to have been influenced by bias no matter how fair I tried to be, that's just human nature. If you think Mertesacker is better than Skrtel, again I'm not going to try and change your opinion. There's a reason that Skrtel has won so many awards for us though and I think he often gets a bad review that's not justified.

With the fullbacks I didn't place them in place of left or right back, simply by who would be considered the better player at the time. As for BAE, he divides opinion a lot, I find him a liability for them but some rave about him so it was a tough call on Spurs full backs to be honest.

Midfielders was a nightmare, was thinking of splitting wingers out, that just caused more problems than it solved due to differing formations, fullbacks who have been playing on the wing etc. It was easier to just list the better players from each squad as a 6. As for the difference in Fellaini and Carzola, again only shifts 1 point which wouldn't make much of an impact at all when you look at the end figures.

Forwards I think it's a bit harsh not to include Carroll for us, he is essentially still our player and would be our number 2, can understand where you're coming from though but without him again would only add 1 point to our score. So even with all these differences the change would essentially be a 3 point swing either way on squads, if you added 3 points to our total let's say and take 3 off all the others would just push Tottenham ahead more and the other 2 teams would still be behind both of us.

The point of the exercise wasn't really to get an exact point, it was more to demonstrate that arguing we don't have a squad to compete for top 6 (this illustrates we should be top 5 to be honest) is futile, we easily have the quality of player to compete in the top 6 and I was getting a bit tired of hearing excuses based upon purely the quality of player we had in the squad.

Exactly.

They are sh*te and we shouldn't be losing games like those.

In a normal season, you'd say it was just one of those freak results like Blackpool beating us under Kenny or Burnley beating United a few years back or that sort of thing.

But this season, it's becoming more frequent which is what makes it more worrying.

This is where i dont get the whole we are massivly short on players argument..

Today we managed to rotate Lucas and Shelvey with Henderson and Allen in midfield, we also have Sahin in there, so thats

Gerrard
Lucas
Shelvey
Henderson
Allen
Sahin

For three midfield slots, now we could argue that we could upgrade 1 or 2 in an ideal world but they are 6 good midfielders to have at your disposal..
I thought Henderson was good today, as was Allen and Gerrard.. So no worries in rotation there? Not short in numbers there?

At the back we have

Johnson
Kelly
Wisdom
Flanagan

Who can play RB

Enrique
Robinson
Johnson

Who can play LB

Agger
Skrtel

As starters as Cb with Carra and Coates the back up/rotation..
Again we can look to upgrade one or two but in terms of depth? Numbers?

Wide up front

Sterling and Downing started today, we have
Borini
Cole
Suso
Assaidi
Pacheco

As rotation, again a couple not really at standard? But as options? Its not that light.. Yes we need to improve that position but if we are talking thin... Cant be blamed as the squad has no depth? Thats not right for me.

That squad and those options are better than where they are for me, we should be top 6 with that squad at least and with 2-3 immediate signings challenging top 4..

There is depth there... Its just excuses to suggest its not.. Its not a championship winnning squad, but its not far off top 4..

Players, well humans will take an excuse if they are offered one, and constantly hearing they are within a thin squad it subconciously gives them a way out.. I expect better for Liverpool, i cant take that the above squad is that light in numbers and quality that we are doing well to be where we are

We have options mate, that you've proven but there's still plenty of weak areas and that's why we are where we are.

Out wide, only Sterling offers me any excitement and he's still raw. In the middle, only Gerrard excites me and he's past his best.

I think our biggest problem is we have a lot of good squad players who can come in for a few games and impress but over the course of a season aren't up to the task. Unfortunately though, these players are playing week in week out. (cue somebody to mention me wanting Spearing back) And that's been our problem for some time, having squad players playing every week.

The middle of the park is the obvious example. We've got 6 players there, none of whom (at this moment in time) are anywhere near the quality I'd expect of a Liverpool central midfield. Stevie, in his prime, was easily the best in the League but now is a shadow of that player. Lucas has been good in the past couple of seasons but since returning from his injury this year has been poor. Allen, Henderson and Shelvey are ok players and I don't expect any to trouble Liverpool's greatest. As for Sahin, I don't rate him at all in what I've seen of him.

On the wings we have similar problems. Good squad players playing every week (or in some cases even poor squad players).

And that's why I think we're playing at a mid-table level because out starting XI is full of mid-table players who'd make for a good squad if there was a bit more quality in the starting XI.

We'll have to agree to disagree mate, Mid table is harsh, i think as i said its a long way off winning the league and 2-3 quality additions from top 4 challenging..

But

Reina
Johnson
Enrique
Agger
Skrtel
Lucas
Gerrard
Allen
Suarez
Sterling
Downing

Isnt a mid table side for me.. Im not getting carried away that they are anywhere near our best, but in terms of this league right now? They arent mid table for me.

We havent had many injuries this season either, in the grand sceme of things, Agger, Suarez, Gerrard have hardly missed a game.. That hasnt been said for a while

We'll have to agree to disagree mate, Mid table is harsh, i think as i said its a long way off winning the league and 2-3 quality additions from top 4 challenging..

But

Reina
Johnson
Enrique
Agger
Skrtel
Lucas
Gerrard
Allen
Suarez
Sterling
Downing

Isnt a mid table side for me.. Im not getting carried away that they are anywhere near our best, but in terms of this league right now? They arent mid table for me.

We havent had many injuries this season either, in the grand sceme of things, Agger, Suarez, Gerrard have hardly missed a game.. That hasnt been said for a while

That's a decent team mate on paper. But football isn't played on paper unfortunately.

That's a decent team mate on paper. But football isn't played on paper unfortunately.

No...

That's where planning, training, tactics and preparation come into it?

No doubt we are underperforming and we need a few extra players to kick us on.. But I can't have that's a mid table side

The table never lies mate, we're a midtable side there is no denying that. As DLS said, it looks good on paper but in reality we're far from a Champions League team.

IMO here's my rating of our current squad...:

Goalkeepers:
----Reina (30) Good enough for CL football, still one of the best shot stoppers in Europe I think

----Jones (30) Decent backup

----Doni (33) Not needed imo, high wages? (Sell)

----Gulacsi (22) Young 3rd choice, not an area we need to vitally improve


Defence:
----Johnson (28) Prime age, great going forward but sh*t at the back. Prefer Kelly at RB.

----Kelly (22) Huge potential, looks solid at RB and his best position I feel. Play him CB when he's more experienced?

----Flanagan (19) Still very young to decide, loan him out to a team that'll guarantee him playing time? (Loan out)

----Wisdom (19) Great physical attributes, but needs work on his defensive game. Reminds me of Micah Richards

----Skrtel (28) Very overrated IMO, no where near the best CB in the league..too much uneccessary 'no-nonsense defending' at times

----Agger (28) Our best defender ability wise, good on the ball too. One of the best in Europe? Far from it, too inconsistent

----Carragher (34) Legend but way past it now, not good enough simple as that unfortunately. The games getting faster, Carra isn't. No time for sentiment, we're Liverpool Football Club not a F***ing charity case. (Retire/Sell)

----Coates (22) Massive potential but Brendan isn't exploiting it. 3-0 up against QPR and Carra comes on over Coates, why?! Needs more playing time! Too much sentiment again

----Enrique (26) One of our better squad players, could be more consistent, however the ability is evident. Champions League quality when at his best

----Robinson (19) Again massive potential that needs to be realised. Why Downing plays LB I'll never know, give this lad a chance when Enrique is unavailable

Midfield:
----Sahin (24) Have hardly seen the lad tbh. He has quality no doubt if he plays for Madrid but needs to show it when given the chance. Would I buy him? No, way too many Center-mids at this club, albeit average ones.  (Terminate loan if we're paying some of his wages)

----Allen (22) Very average footballer. Great for Swansea, but he isn't CL quality. But he's still a young lad, so there's room for development

----Lucas (25) Has improved heaps in his time here, but still overrated by many Liverpool fans. CL quality, just about... World class, miles away.

----Gerrard (32) Getting on a bit but still our second best player at this club. Can still change a game, but much better in a deeper role, he doesn't have the legs to be box to box anymore.

----Shelvey (20) New Gerrard? Hell no! But great potential and ability, better than every single midfielder apart from Stevie. That's how I honestly feel, he needs to step up and rightfully claim his place.

----Henderson (22) Average player, has no place at Liverpool. Not much potential from what I've seen, worse than Allen. (Sell)

Attacking midfield/Wing forwards:
----Cole (31) Way past it, doesn't offer much, very high wages. (Sell)

----Assaidi (24) Why this guy hasn't played more I really don't have a clue. Looks very promising, speedy agile and tricky winger that can deliver the final ball. Needs to play more over Downing.

----Downing (28) Never rated him, never will. Absolutely sh*t. (Sell)

----Suso (19) Quality player this lad, needs much more playing time. Great on the ball, one to watch for the future. His nationality says it all

----Sterling (18) Had a good season no doubt, but will he be 'great'? I personally think nah, just another Shauny-Wright so far from what I've seen...hope to God I'm wrong

Attackers:
----Borini (21) Haven't seen much but from what I have seen, average. Reason for Chelsea and Swansea letting him go

----Suarez (25) Fantastic player, unbelievable ability. World class? No, too inconsistent. Misses too many chances and makes wrong decisions at times. Torres was twice as better when he played for us. But still our best player, need to build the team around him.

----Pacheco (21) Just don't understand why he doesn't play him. Young and talented lad in a department where we're short, needs to play more alongside Suarez, behind him. Even in the Att Mid positions or wing forward positions depending on formation.

----Carroll (23) Way overpaid for him but its happened. I'd see what price we could get for him. £12m or over then sell otherwise keep him and use him as a back-up. Very average I think, Crouch is better.


We have others to return such as Spearing, Wilson etc amongst other youngsters but in my overall judgement we just don't have anywhere near a good enough squad to compete for a CL spot/Prem title. We'd need at least top quality additions in the following positions to even consider thinking about competing in the top 4:

CB, CM, LM/LWF, RM/RWF, ST. And these signings need to be quality. Carroll, Hendo, Adam, Downing...a waste of near enough £80m F***ing pounds on absolute garbage. Our next couple of transfer windows is make or break for us, we could either descend and become an average mid-table to bottom half team or get better.

^^^^^
Agree with most of this apart from Pacheco who i think is also sh*t we should have
sold him to Norwich when we had the chance. He had an opportunity to show what
he could do early in the season Europa league ect & he was f***in dreadful didn't look
like he was interested (sell)

Pacheco (21) Just don't understand why he doesn't play him. Young and talented lad in a department where we're short, needs to play more alongside Suarez, behind him. Even in the Att Mid positions or wing forward positions depending on formation.

Pacheco is nowhere near first team ability - showed a lot of promise but just isn't good enough

Reina Average, Good, Great, Brilliant!

Johnson Brilliant!
Enrique Great
Wisdom Average
Agger Brilliant!
Skrtel Great
Carragher Average
Coates Good

Lucas Brilliant!
Gerrard Will always be awesome to me and has been brilliand recently
Allen Average
Sahin Great
Shelvey Good
Henderson Average

Downing less than Average
Assaidi Good
Sterling Good
Suarez Brilliant!
Suso Good for his age and if used well could be a star but the team is not good enough
Cole Average