The great big Rafa debate

It's still a pretty usefull indicator, and like economists use the phrase "in real terms" so Tomkins uses TPI, as an indicator of spending, and uses it pretty well to highlight relative spending "in real terms"

It's a pretty complex formula, and as with anything to do with inflation, weighting and relative monetary values it's not precise, but is still a usefull tool when making a comparison.

Taking inflation into account, and then weighting player values according to the state of the market at any given time (using average transfer price index) amomgst other factors is going to give a pretty accurate picture of spending in relative terms.

To be fair, you need to be a decent mathematician and/or economist to truly understand how it works, and I'm neither, but I have enough of a grasp to understand that as an indicator it has value.

Let's just leave the past as story and not mathematic equation.

Things have changes, in the 80's players will be happy with a decent house and food on the table, now you have supermodels to F**k, sports cars, income tax, investment scheme, insurance, etc.

Time have changes, move on.

I've just read the entire article and Paul Tomkins hang your f**king head in shame lad. What kind of Liverpool fan says the following:

"Benítez won one of the two that really matter, and made another Champions League final."

So f**k everything else. Lets just ask the FA to kick us out the League Cup and FA Cup and write a letter to UEFA telling us not to bother with the Europa League. They obviously don't matter to glory hunting bas**rds like you.

I can guarentee, whole f**king heartedly, that if we got past Athletico Madrid in the semi final last season and then beat Fulham, you'd be banging the drum of how great a job Rafa has done to win the Europa League. And how it was a massive achievement winning such a big trophy.

F***ing disgraceful thing to say.

The FA Cup, League Cup and UEFA Cup matter as well. And that's why Liverpool Football Club takes part in them and tries to win them. They may not hold as much prestige as others, but it's still a f**king joy seeing our boys win them because they matter.

Maybe Shanks' side that won the FA Cup twice and UEFA Cup once don't matter. Maybe Bob's 76 UEFA Cup winning side isn't important or the fact that he took us to three consecutive League Cups. Maybe Smokin' Joe winning our fourth League Cup - part of our first treble in 84 - is irrelevant. Maybe Kenny's double winning side should only care about winning the League and not the FA Cup - against Everton. Maybe Kenny's side beating Everton in the 89 Cup Final should be forgotten because they didn't win the League. Maybe Souey and Roy didn't win a thing because they only won unimportant trophies.

F***ing ridiculous statement that only two trophies matter. They all f**king matter, maybe not to pricks like you but certainly to fans who want to see their club win things on a regular basis. I got as much satisfaction winning the FA Cup in 01 as I did the European Cup in 05.

Every player will tell you they want to play at Wembley to play in the FA Cup final. It's tradition alone puts it up there as a massive trophy.

Maybe you're just one of these modern day football fans who fucks history and tradition off and cares more about money.

Disgraceful. Really is.

I think you're reading too much into it.

He didn't say that the League and FA Cup were irrelevant, nor did he say that they didn't matter. He said 'really matter'. It's about priorities. If you could pick between a League Cup and a EPL title? Which one would you pick? Obviously the EPL title, because this club has been craving for it after such a long time.

Just ask every Liverpool fan out there, would they rather win the League Cup or the EPL title, everyone of them will tell you that the EPL title is of the highest priority. Even Rafa has said that the order of importance should be 'EPL, CL, FA then League Cup'.

unfortunately, due to the current situation
the main points being

nando not committing
masch not committing
gerro not commiting
rafa only commiting as his "plans" fell through
lack of money
the yanks not F***ing off
the sale dragging out

i can see us struggling for top 10 next year

"Doom Mongering"

I think you're reading too much into it.

He didn't say that the League and FA Cup were irrelevant, nor did he say that they didn't matter. He said 'really matter'. It's about priorities. If you could pick between a League Cup and a EPL title? Which one would you pick? Obviously the EPL title, because this club has been craving for it after such a long time.

Just ask every Liverpool fan out there, would they rather win the League Cup or the EPL title, everyone of them will tell you that the EPL title is of the highest priority. Even Rafa has said that the order of importance should be 'EPL, CL, FA then League Cup'.

So "really matter" doesn't indicate that the others don't really matter? It's plain F***ing English.

So "really matter" doesn't indicate that the others don't really matter? It's plain f**king English.

In the context of the quote it doesn't: it simply means that relatively the Champions League and the Premiership are considered to be more prestigious than the other competitions.

That's simply a statement of fact or of the way things are and it doesn't belittle the achievements of any of our previous managers which is something that you chose to "bolt onto" the original statement.

Now that you've made a rather injudicious statement, you have cause to regret it. Understandable.

It's like the man said: "Act in haste... repent at leisure."

Let's move on...

In the context of the quote it doesn't: it simply means that relatively the Champions League and the Premiership are considered to be more prestigious than the other competitions.

That's simply a statement of fact or of the way things are and it doesn't belittle the achievements of any of our previous managers which is something that you chose to "bolt onto" the original statement.

Now that you've made a rather injudicious statement, you have cause to regret it. Understandable.

It's like the man said: "Act in haste... repent at leisure."

Let's move on...

Except I don't regret it and have no reason to.

Won one of the two that really matter quite simply indicates the others don't really matter. And then he mentions making another Champions League final as if that's something we should be drooling over. As I said the other day elsewhere, reaching any final is only an achievement if you win it. Nobody remembers the losers, coming runners up isn't an achievement.

unfortunately, due to the current situation
the main points being

nando not committing
masch not committing
gerro not commiting
rafa only commiting as his "plans" fell through
lack of money
the yanks not f**king off
the sale dragging out

I can see us struggling for top 10 next year

If nando been promised 1st 11 and chances playing in champion league then under current situation we're not playing champion league, is it his fault if he's not commiting?
Just an example... players come and go depend on their objective...

Except I don't regret it and have no reason to.

Won one of the two that really matter quite simply indicates the others don't really matter. And then he mentions making another Champions League final as if that's something we should be drooling over. As I said the other day elsewhere, reaching any final is only an achievement if you win it. Nobody remembers the losers, coming runners up isn't an achievement.

Definitely all matter, I'm not saying that they don't really matter. He's just trying to get across that some matter more than others, which is something I'm sure that you would agree to. Winning the EPL obviously matters more than winning the League Cup.

That is all I look at it. I wouldn't read too much into it because it's just a few words. You look at the whole message and not just 2 words and pick up that he's not a true fan.

Definitely all matter, I'm not saying that they don't really matter. He's just trying to get across that some matter more than others, which is something I'm sure that you would agree to. Winning the EPL obviously matters more than winning the League Cup.

That is all I look at it. I wouldn't read too much into it because it's just a few words. You look at the whole message and not just 2 words and pick up that he's not a true fan.

The whole article is over the top, Rafa tinted bias from Tomkins. Typical of him really.

And on the matter of only two really mattering, it's like saying "ah well, only the opinion of CRK and hardcoresoldier really matter on the forum" They're the only two worth reading. It's complete and utter rubbish that some might F***ing swallow, I'd rather not.

The whole article is over the top, Rafa tinted bias from Tomkins. Typical of him really.

And on the matter of only two really mattering, it's like saying "ah well, only the opinion of CRK and hardcoresoldier really matter on the forum" They're the only two worth reading. It's complete and utter rubbish that some might F***ing swallow, I'd rather not.

Both Pro & Anti Rafa stuff has been fought on the extremes, both sides twisting stats & facts to fit their views.  Hardly any reason for the moderates on either side to get involved.

Both Pro & Anti Rafa stuff has been fought on the extremes, both sides twisting stats & facts to fit their views.  Hardly any reason for the moderates on either side to get involved.

I agree mate, it's gotten very nasty at times in this thread. I think both sides have made valid arguments ( and some stupid ones ). The lines have been drawn, and no one is going to change their opinions. Wether Rafa is the right man is up to yourself, but keep it above the belt folks! We're all REDS 

Looks like the great big rafa debate has run its race.  Perhaps the strangest enigma about the rafa debate is how so many people, at least on this website, have remained supporters of the man, whilst everywhere else you look people have been calling for his head.

Personally, I think its a positive step for the club, and it does tend to indicate that prospective owners have expressed a desire to want to appoint their own manager, and not invest in the club whilst rafa was in charge. Hopefully this will speed up the sale, and therefore be a positive step.

As far as rafa's ability as a manager is concerned, it will be interesting to see what kind of impact he has in his next role.
Perhaps the debate will rage on in the general forum, where his success or failure will no doubt vindicate the views of many on here.

Incredible as it sounds, rafa goes with about 75% of the fans on this site believing he was the right man. At times, I have wondered whether this site is a place to debate and discuss the fortunes of the Liverpool Football Club, or a site for the Rafa Benitez cult followers.
With the prospect of new owners and a new manager there is much to be excited about for the future.

Looks like the great big rafa debate has run its race.  Perhaps the strangest enigma about the rafa debate is how so many people, at least on this website, have remained supporters of the man, whilst everywhere else you look people have been calling for his head.

Personally, I think its a positive step for the club, and it does tend to indicate that prospective owners have expressed a desire to want to appoint their own manager, and not invest in the club whilst rafa was in charge. Hopefully this will speed up the sale, and therefore be a positive step.

As far as rafa's ability as a manager is concerned, it will be interesting to see what kind of impact he has in his next role.
Perhaps the debate will rage on in the general forum, where his success or failure will no doubt vindicate the views of many on here.

Incredible as it sounds, rafa goes with about 75% of the fans on this site believing he was the right man. At times, I have wondered whether this site is a place to debate and discuss the fortunes of the Liverpool Football Club, or a site for the Rafa Benitez cult followers.
With the prospect of new owners and a new manager there is much to be excited about for the future.

F**k off you F***ing gobs***e. Have you not heard The Kop singing his name every game home and away?

F**k right off you F***ing whopper c**t. Dont F***ing try your sh*t on here. Look at all the other forums on the net. Noones happy.

http://www.theroar.com.au/2010/06/04/when-it-became-clear-rafa-benitez-had-to-go/

When It Became Clear Rafa Benitez Had To Go

The news that Rafa Benitez is (has left) on the verge of leaving Anfield shouldn’t come as a surprise or disappointment to anyone.
His Liverpool use-by date is up.
Perhaps only Sir Alex Ferguson will be upset. Liverpool might finally get its act together.

If ever he was going to restore the club to its former glory after two decades of misery, it was going to be the season before the one just completed, when Liverpool somehow let slip a double-figure lead to their bitter rivals.

That season, with Fernando Torres in full flow, Steven Gerrard bombing on beyond him, Xabi Alonso pinging the ball around with unerring precision, Yossi Benayoun and Dirk Kuijt having career-best seasons and the fullbacks finally offering offensive integration, Benitez’s men dished up some of the most flowing football you are likely to see.

Only Barcelona, La Liga and European Champions that season, were in the same league. Arsenal, Manchester United, Chelsea, Inter Milan, Real Madrid and Wolfsburg didn’t come close.

And it still wasn’t enough.
We all know the story about too many draws at home, and the remarkable run from Manchester United after the mid-season Club World Championship.

Benitez and his team gave it everything, physically and mentally, dominated the top four league within the league, and, somehow, still came up short.

There was very little chance he could motivate the players to do it all again, with the realistic chance they could put all that physical and mental effort in, and come up short again.

To have any chance, he would need to strengthen his squad and relieve some of the workload from Messrs Gerrard and Torres.

As I wrote at the time on The Roar, Benitez had to keep Alonso and find another front-man to take some of the scoring burden off Torres.

Little else, truth be told, needed tinkering.

But, because the club was suffering financially, funds weren’t readily available.

He had to sell one of his prize assets in order to finance any purchases.

So, after shopping Alonso around 12 months earlier, he sold his main link-up man. Alonso was off to Real Madrid.

With him went Spaniard right back Alvaro Arbeloa, coming off his best season in red, one in which he proved he can be an attacking weapon as well as a solid defender.

Benitez finally had the money he kept claiming his owners wouldn’t give him.

But what was his plan?
How would he replace Alonso?
Which big-name striker would come in to compliment Torres and add depth to the front-line?

David Villa maybe?
Carlos Tevez?
Even David Silva?

No, Benitez spent eighteen million Euros on right back in Glen Johnson and another 20 million on an injured Italian attacking midfielder, Alberto Aquilani, who wouldn’t be available till October.

Outrageous waste of money, just as it had been for much of his six year tenure.

Even at the start of the most recent season it was clear Liverpool didn’t have the depth to challenge for the title, and in a World Cup season, how on earth could you expect an injury prone Torres to forage alone up front?

Oh, Andriy Voronin was back, and David N’gog was emerging!

Little wonder Liverpool finished seventh when you consider that Tottenham could choose between Peter Crouch, Jermaine Defoe, Roman Pavlyuchenko and Robbie Keane.

Manchester City could start Tevez, Emmanuel Adebayor and Craig Bellamy, and still bring Roque Santa Cruz off the bench.

Even Aston Villa had more depth in Gabi Agbonlahor, Emile Heskey and John Carew.

Season after season it’s been the same complaint from Benitez; give me money to invest on players.

And season after season he has failed in the transfer market.

Truth is money has never really been the problem.

It has been his poor use of it, failure to develop players and an obsession with conservative tactics.

At times, I have wondered whether this site is a place to debate and discuss the fortunes of the Liverpool Football Club, or a site for the Rafa Benitez cult followers.

Why don't you leave then?

Lock this up I think. The mans gone, unfortunately. No need to sully his name anymore with pointless debate.

Let's just remember him positively, shall we? I think anyone who says Rafa didn't move us forward until the yanks ripped the rug out are talking out of their arse anyway.

EDIT: Just read that article eurored. With all due respect as I think you're a good poster, but what the F**k? That's just poor journalism as always. You should know better.

Think this should be locked, can see it getting volatile in here due to differing opinions and emotions running high.

Completely agree with BigV. Don't want any further debate on this.
He was a legend. He is a legend.

He's gone.

Plenty of threads to discuss the circumstances of his departure or to say goodbye.

It's been long, it's been heated, but it's finally come to an end.

Locked.